Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

[pzbw7z]

Court of Ardenvale and Fleshbag Marauder could be very silly indeed.

[Rframpt]

It is something to consider certainly

[pzbw7z]

Liliana, Untouched by Death, Rooftop Storm and Fleshbag Marauder is among the most obnoxious things I've ever pulled off.

[Rframpt]

I had to stop using Rooftop Storm otherwise it could end games in very unsatisfying ways. The card is unreal and while very fun when I combined it with Havengul Lich + Rooftop Storm + Sidisi, Undead Vizier you quickly become able to find your wincon. And this was back in 2018, where we didn"t have nearly as much support as we do now

[pzbw7z]

My personal favorite was Liliana, Untouched by Death, Rooftop Storm and Sidisi, Undead Vizier. I'll give up my Rooftop Storm when they pry it from my cold, dead fingers.

I guess we have different views of what's satisfying.

[Rframpt]

I did similar things when Varina was a Gisa and Geralf deck, which also was insane, but lost its luster after I found I was playing more Solitaire than magic. Or I was playing magic at my opponents rather than with my opponents. Besides it was a lot of shuffle constantly recuring Sidisi with havengul lich. I like being more in the red zone than doing the dimir value engine with gisa and geralf.
I have been looking into more of a grixis zombie deck playing some of the other Zombies that don't currently fit in Varina and to get to play Deadapult, Anathemancer and Deathbringer Thoctar.
Still debating in which grixis zombie legend should be the commander

[pzbw7z]

Still debating in which grixis zombie legend should be the commander

I wrote a list for Tormod, the Desecrator and Kraum, Ludevic's Opus but I have never gotten around to building it.

[Rframpt]

Still debating in which grixis zombie legend should be the commander

I wrote a list for Tormod, the Desecrator and Kraum, Ludevic's Opus but I have never gotten around to building it.

I can see myself either doing those two or go for Nekusar, the Mindrazer . Though I will have to see. Varina is still the main Zombie deck I like to play, which as a lot of gears I can shift into depending on the tempo of the game. Nekusar also allows for some slight Waste Not shenanigans which leads me to be more of a creature combo deck, though a lot of weird synergies.

[pzbw7z]

People seem to hate Nekusar, the Mindrazer pretty hard.

My Tormod/Kraum idea is just a fun experiment to see how close Zombie tribal could get to cEDH. I have many of the Rakdos staples in Prosper and a few of the U staples in Varina, so I thought I would mash them together and see if it came close to working. Figuring out the win-cons is somewhat challenging for a scrub such as myself, especially trying to work out Doomsday|WTH piles. Doomsday might not even be a good idea to begin with.

[pzbw7z]

It's such a bummer that this guy is in the wrong colors. What were they thinking, I mean not just G - which make no sense, but GG.

Still, a super card, so flavorful and evocative of the episode's character. It's also really fun to play in casual games.

[Rframpt]

Certainly, an interesting card for sure. Though not a card I would add to my list even in a casual setting. Don't know much about Doctor Who so I can't say much about the flavour of the card. Still very much an interesting card

[pzbw7z]

I think the way to abuse Saw in Half might be Sidisi, Undead Vizier, as long as there are other creatures to exploit. Cast Sidisi, exploit another creature, get Saw, saw Sidisi in half, get two combo pieces and Bob's your uncle!

Actually, the Legendary thing seems to prevent this. . . Oh well. I'm glad I didn't rush out and get a copy. Still, there are nice targets available. Gray Merchant of Asphodel seems good.

[toctheyounger]

Personally I don't think there's much scope for Saw in Half here. I certainly can't see any targets that would be good enough for me to include it in my build. Sure, Gary, but it's not exactly a guaranteed win. It could be, but it's not a sure thing and I think in that respect it's probably going to sit at about the same level as something like Necroduality or Mirrorweave. Good but not great.

That said I am comparing to cedh lines, where it does gross things with Hoarding Broodlord - you get Saw with your search, target the dragon, get Burnt Offering with the first copy, then Peer into the Abyss with the second. There's a ton of variations on it, but I just don't see that Saw is flexible enough to do much here. Maybe Repository Skaab stuff? Feels like you'd need Rooftop Storm to make it any sort of loop, but if you've got your Storm you're on the winning track anyway.

[IAMAfortunecookieAMA]

I think in that respect it's probably going to sit at about the same level as something like Necroduality or Mirrorweave. Good but not great.

Funny, this is the same reason I quickly came off Roaming Throne. As a highly telegraphed 4-mana play, it was definitely high upside but was very bad when I was behind and ultimately felt a little hollow / off-flavor, too.

Necroduality, Rooftop Storm, and similar cards are very battlecruisery.

[toctheyounger]

I think in that respect it's probably going to sit at about the same level as something like Necroduality or Mirrorweave. Good but not great.

Funny, this is the same reason I quickly came off Roaming Throne. As a highly telegraphed 4-mana play, it was definitely high upside but was very bad when I was behind and ultimately felt a little hollow / off-flavor, too.

Necroduality, Rooftop Storm, and similar cards are very battlecruisery.

That's a shame, I was thinking the Throne would be really worthwhile here. I think I'll still try it out, ward is pretty excellent, and it being a buffer for every job I have for the zombies is still pretty good. I guess I'm not surprised though, Necro was very similar; it being a noncreature hurts, and you run into sequencing issues with where it falls on the curve. Rooftop is a little different in that you don't need to worry about curve afterwards, but it's also a lightning rod. I've thought about bringing rooftop back in, but I think it still suffers from the same issue of if you don't have the pieces to go off it's just goodstuff, and it still needs a ton of mana, which doesn't leave too much to protect it on the stack or on resolution.

[Rframpt]

Had some games with Varina earlier this week. Noxious Ghoul was among the most valuable Card for one of the games along with Undead Alchemist. It did also mean that I got subjected to some fairly target land destruction. The game did end with a couple of misplays on my part not Casting Zombie Apocalypse at the start of my first main phase instead of attacking with 14 plus Zombies with Varina out for the greed play. I had forgotten that Liliana's Standard Bearer in the years and with all other Zombies on my field dying I ended up drawing the rest of my library

[pzbw7z]

I think in that respect it's probably going to sit at about the same level as something like Necroduality or Mirrorweave. Good but not great.

Funny, this is the same reason I quickly came off Roaming Throne. As a highly telegraphed 4-mana play, it was definitely high upside but was very bad when I was behind and ultimately felt a little hollow / off-flavor, too.

Necroduality, Rooftop Storm, and similar cards are very battlecruisery.

That's a shame, I was thinking the Throne would be really worthwhile here. I think I'll still try it out, ward is pretty excellent, and it being a buffer for every job I have for the zombies is still pretty good. I guess I'm not surprised though, Necro was very similar; it being a noncreature hurts, and you run into sequencing issues with where it falls on the curve. Rooftop is a little different in that you don't need to worry about curve afterwards, but it's also a lightning rod. I've thought about bringing rooftop back in, but I think it still suffers from the same issue of if you don't have the pieces to go off it's just goodstuff, and it still needs a ton of mana, which doesn't leave too much to protect it on the stack or on resolution.

Throne of Eldraine with Sidisi, Undead Vizier might be worth the price of admission. Evidently, her Extort triggers twice and each Extort tutors twice. Suddenly four-card combos aren't so tough anymore.

[toctheyounger]

What do you guys think of Mists of Lórien? Might be a good alternative to Cyc rift overloaded. I've picked up copies while it's about, I think it's got some potential.

[pzbw7z]

What do you guys think of Mists of Lórien? Might be a good alternative to Cyc rift overloaded. I've picked up copies while it's about, I think it's got some potential.

It's symmetrical, so that's a big downside compared to Cyclonic Rift, but there would be some uses for sure.

[yeti1069]

What do you guys think of Mists of Lórien? Might be a good alternative to Cyc rift overloaded. I've picked up copies while it's about, I think it's got some potential.

The questions become:
* What mana values are you looking to bounce that don't set back your own board so much that you could run any number of other similar effects that just bounce/blow up everything?
* In what situation(s) would you want to be using this?
* How much is too much for a deck that is very heavily ?
* Where's the value in spending or at sorcery speed vs at instant speed for CycRift?
*If you're only spending for a single mana value, how often could you just be spending to just bounce the one permanent you need off the field?

Personally, I'm just not seeing it most of the time. I suppose occasionally you're playing this for the base cost naming 1 or 2 to bounce then replay your cheap zombies for ETB triggers, but that doesn't seem super-valuable for the cost/effect. Bouncing some of your dudes to then add to your cycling options via Varina's combat trigger isn't too bad, especially in advance of a mass reanimate, but if you already have them on the field, there isn't a lot of value that I can see in spending 3 or 4 mana to put them in your hand to then discard them compared to spending 1-3 mana to just sacrifice them (and probably get additional value).

[Reya]

Cyclonic Rift is much much better. Instant speed, does not target.

[Reya]

A new zombie I will try:



Image does not show up...

The zombie is a 1/1 for one black mana and when it deals damage to player you mill two cards. You can also pay 1B to give it +2/+2 (only one each turn).

[pzbw7z]

A new zombie I will try:



Image does not show up...

The zombie is a 1/1 for one black mana and when it deals damage to player you mill two cards. You can also pay 1B to give it +2/+2 (only one each turn).

This guy?

I've no idea why it displays twice.

[Reya]

Yeah this one is cool. Fill up your grave, come early and in the one time in a million you will need it, you can pump it

[ChocoDude]

What do you plan to swap out for this? Universal Automaton?