Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

[Rframpt]

New Geralf is a combo enabler with plenty of aggro upside at 3cmc. It has value without the presence of a combo. If necroduality were 3cmc would you consider it? That's kind of how I see this new tool.

Its def not a zombie though. Doesnt trigger Varina.

Awkward, but powerul card. I might try it out just to see it in action. Probably has no place on many Varina lists, especially optimized ones.

Gisa & Geralf was a beloved commander when I played it. Love that they keep those two in the story cycle. Wish they would both just die already and become zombies. Gisa should kill her brother and reanimate him next time.

I am currently reviving my Gisa and Geralf. There are too many Zombies I want to play and not enough slots to fit them all in Varina Unfortunately.
I did play Gisa and Geralf before turning it into my Varina deck but I also have aquired so many Zombies that don't fit the play style of Varina

[toctheyounger]

New Geralf is a combo enabler with plenty of aggro upside at 3cmc. It has value without the presence of a combo. If necroduality were 3cmc would you consider it? That's kind of how I see this new tool.

Its def not a zombie though. Doesnt trigger Varina.

Awkward, but powerul card. I might try it out just to see it in action. Probably has no place on many Varina lists, especially optimized ones.

Gisa & Geralf was a beloved commander when I played it. Love that they keep those two in the story cycle. Wish they would both just die already and become zombies. Gisa should kill her brother and reanimate him next time.

I kinda think the same way, it's got inherent value without combo. There ARE combos with it, but past the point of 4 pieces I'm very much not interested.

I think I'll be picking up a copy, depending where the price lands; there's scant else I want from the set currently, so I'm ok to pick up one or two pieces to try. Other than this there's the new Rakdos, a couple spree cards and that's it. Which is fine by me, there's very little else I think we want here.

[Rframpt]

So far my biggest problem is to figure out what are my flex slots. I have a decent grasp on which are my stables, but which slot are the ones I can take out for some experimentations. The deck has some sick lines now, and Cauldron Haze is moving into being a stable.

[plaganegra]

New Geralf is a combo enabler with plenty of aggro upside at 3cmc. It has value without the presence of a combo. If necroduality were 3cmc would you consider it? That's kind of how I see this new tool.

Its def not a zombie though. Doesnt trigger Varina.

Awkward, but powerul card. I might try it out just to see it in action. Probably has no place on many Varina lists, especially optimized ones.

Gisa & Geralf was a beloved commander when I played it. Love that they keep those two in the story cycle. Wish they would both just die already and become zombies. Gisa should kill her brother and reanimate him next time.

I am currently reviving my Gisa and Geralf. There are too many Zombies I want to play and not enough slots to fit them all in Varina Unfortunately.
I did play Gisa and Geralf before turning it into my Varina deck but I also have aquired so many Zombies that don't fit the play style of Varina

Isn't it refreshing to have a set release and not feel the need to upgrade every deck you own? lol. I fondly remember the early days of commander where it was rare that I wanted more than a couple cards from each new set. I want those times to come back please.

Out of all the decks I have, Varina is updated at the lowest frequency. I think they are holding back from printing new efficient zombies for whatever reason. Everything lately has just been flavor and off-tribe mechanics. The last zombie of note for me was poxwalkers, and before that headless rider.

I look forward to the day when we get another solid one drop on par with cryptbreaker or two drop like undead augur. Maybe the next modern horizons set will have a new competitive zombie in it...

[pzbw7z]

I look forward to the day when we get another solid one drop on par with cryptbreaker or two drop like undead augur. Maybe the next modern horizons set will have a new competitive zombie in it...

Those two aren't just solid, they're spectacular and I doubt we shall ever see the equal of either ever again. Not that I would mind, though.

One thing I wouldn't mind seeing is more multi-color - three and up! - Zombie commanders. Not humans with zombie synergy, but Zombies.

[pokken]

Those two aren't just solid, they're spectacular and I doubt we shall ever see the equal of either ever again. Not that I would mind, though.

Personally I'd settle for zombie Thraben Inspector :D

[Rframpt]

Getting more effecient Zombies is the dream. Especially, in the one and two drop however getting more three drops I wouldn't love as my three drops slot is the most stacked of them all

[pokken]

my three drops slot is the most stacked of them all

and realistically the curveout plan can only support ~10 3 drops (at most) and wants ~20 1-2 cmc guys. It's so hard to get that many cos the 1 cmc slot is garbage and 2 cmc lacks in card advantage.

zombies could use like, a couple smoothing out dudes in the 1-2 range, even just like zombie Wall of Omens or zombie Faerie Seer or something.

A few more copies of Lazotep Reaver even would be pretty dope.

[pzbw7z]

Zombie Elvish Visionary for me, please!

[pzbw7z]

Who am I kidding, Zombie Prosper, Tome-Bound is what I want, but in Grixis! That's not too much to ask, is it?

[pzbw7z]

Who am I kidding, Zombie Prosper, Tome-Bound is what I want, but in Grixis! That's not too much to ask, is it?

Or, even better, sans Green! Rainbow would be acceptable too, I suppose.

[Rframpt]

I think getting access to green is a lateral move rather than just being better. Being in grixis I believe gets us more interesting stuff nd best of all gets you access to Deadapult which who can say no to that?

[pokken]

Being in grixis

I definitely think there is a grixis zombie deck but it's an extremely different deck :D Kraum, Ludevic's Opus kinda defines that approach I think, and toss in Tormod, the Desecrator you've got some gas. But really different gas lol. That said, having Gravecrawler doubling in the command zone is pretty legit. Giving up Sevinne's Reclamation would be hard.

[pzbw7z]

I think getting access to green is a lateral move rather than just being better. Being in grixis I believe gets us more interesting stuff nd best of all gets you access to Deadapult which who can say no to that?

Sans green is French for "without", so WUBR.

[pzbw7z]

Being in grixis

I definitely think there is a grixis zombie deck but it's an extremely different deck :D Kraum, Ludevic's Opus kinda defines that approach I think, and toss in Tormod, the Desecrator you've got some gas. But really different gas lol. That said, having Gravecrawler doubling in the command zone is pretty legit. Giving up Sevinne's Reclamation would be hard.

I've had a Tormod - Kraum list for months but I haven't put it together. Corpse Knight and Wayward Servant are the biggest loss for me; the mono-B and Dimir aristocrat pieces are all three-MV and up, that's why I brought up sans green (WUBR).

[pokken]

I've had a Tormod - Kraum list for months but I haven't put it together. Corpse Knight and Wayward Servant are the biggest loss for me; the mono- and Dimir aristocrat pieces are all three-MV and up, that's why I brought up sans green ().

Hmm, yeah not having any zombies that do the red equivalent (etb ping or haste) is rough. There's always the pedestrian blue haste+rampant growth Time Warp

[Rframpt]

I think getting access to green is a lateral move rather than just being better. Being in grixis I believe gets us more interesting stuff nd best of all gets you access to Deadapult which who can say no to that?

Sans green is French for "without", so WUBR.

Yeah that is my mistake, completely didn't read the sand part, but thank you for the clarification.

I don't really enjoy getting more four color commanders as if we are on four colors already why not not just take the more interesting step of playing five color Zombies? Feel like that could be more interesting that playing four color sans Green for EDH

Still looking forward to see what the next evolution for Zombies look like. Know some of my three drops I could cut for new cards.

[pzbw7z]

I've had a Tormod - Kraum list for months but I haven't put it together. Corpse Knight and Wayward Servant are the biggest loss for me; the mono- and Dimir aristocrat pieces are all three-MV and up, that's why I brought up sans green ().

Hmm, yeah not having any zombies that do the red equivalent (etb ping or haste) is rough. There's always the pedestrian blue haste+rampant growth Time Warp

R has things like Impact Tremors which could possibly substitute effectively, but mostly R has gas; Jeska's Will, numerous rituals and heavy hitters like Underworld Breach make Grixis so much faster than Esper.

[pokken]

R has things like Impact Tremors which could possibly substitute effectively, but mostly has gas; Jeska's Will, numerous rituals and heavy hitters like Underworld Breach make Grixis so much faster than Esper.

Yeah the issues with that stuff is it's not zombies, so you're diluting your zombie gameplan to play enablers that may or may not get the job done. I'm hit or miss on rituals personally; I don't run them in my Esper build despite black having access to a bunch of them because again they're not zombies.

Red just does not have very many good zombies (if any other than Kraum?). That said...the looting suite is really good, so maybe that'd be a thing to build around Faithless Looting and Cathartic Reunion et. al. are quite efficient.

Another angle is that Tormod, the Desecrator gains a lot of flashback effects from red and somewhat combos with Underworld Breach -- you essentially get two zombies per spell you cast off breach, which is really strong.

In any case I need to stop talking about this idea because it's super appealing and I love Kraum, Ludevic's Opus :D

--

The main relevance to this thread is that, in the context of esper zombies, Tormod, the Desecrator has a lot of applications that I think I want to consider more as I move toward a Varina rebuild that is not combo centric. Being able to make 2 zombies off of Varina, Lich Queen's ability with Tormod feels like there might be something there.

[Rframpt]

R has things like Impact Tremors which could possibly substitute effectively, but mostly has gas; Jeska's Will, numerous rituals and heavy hitters like Underworld Breach make Grixis so much faster than Esper.

Yeah the issues with that stuff is it's not zombies, so you're diluting your zombie gameplan to play enablers that may or may not get the job done. I'm hit or miss on rituals personally; I don't run them in my Esper build despite black having access to a bunch of them because again they're not zombies.

Red just does not have very many good zombies (if any other than Kraum?). That said...the looting suite is really good, so maybe that'd be a thing to build around Faithless Looting and Cathartic Reunion et. al. are quite efficient.

Another angle is that Tormod, the Desecrator gains a lot of flashback effects from red and somewhat combos with Underworld Breach -- you essentially get two zombies per spell you cast off breach, which is really strong.

In any case I need to stop talking about this idea because it's super appealing and I love Kraum, Ludevic's Opus :D

--

The main relevance to this thread is that, in the context of esper zombies, Tormod, the Desecrator has a lot of applications that I think I want to consider more as I move toward a Varina rebuild that is not combo centric. Being able to make 2 zombies off of Varina, Lich Queen's ability with Tormod feels like there might be something there.

That is essentially why I have Tormod in my list of Varina which is less combo centric and on the aristo zombies strategy. While I have some combos it isn't the primary focus and more of me trying to midrange my way through. But I am also able to lock out my opponents by continuously looping Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant every time it is my turn and wipe the board.

[pzbw7z]

The main relevance to this thread is that, in the context of esper zombies, Tormod, the Desecrator has a lot of applications that I think I want to consider more as I move toward a Varina rebuild that is not combo centric. Being able to make 2 zombies off of Varina, Lich Queen's ability with Tormod feels like there might be something there.

Tormod, the Desecrator was fun and sometimes effective, but at four-MV he was seemed lacking in my deck. Another build might be another story, but for now, I'm really digging Graveborn Muse in that slot.

[Rframpt]

Tormod, the Desecrator was fun and sometimes effective, but at four-MV he was seemed lacking in my deck. Another build might be another story, but for now, I'm really digging Graveborn Muse in that slot.

I run both in my version. Muse is a nice removal magnet as people aren't that keen on me refilling my hand. Tormod does get nice when you can pair him with Withered Wretch as in the end step before your turn you can remove the cards you don't need from your yard with Wretch to have a potential army to swing with depending on how much mana you would like to spend. One generic and a card from the yard to get a 2/2 zombie instant speed is very nice. It hasn't yet but with the right timing it can also provide some utility for when other people board wipe and you have Corpse Knight, Wayward Servant, Diregraf Captain, Plague Belcher & Vengeful Dead.

So far, Tormod has been nice when the network of other zombies are there to support his abilities. It will be a tough day if I end up cutting him from the deck. He fits how I want to play being both aggressive and grinding out my opponents.

[pzbw7z]

Leyline Dowser is moderately interesting for a deck that likes its creatures in the graveyard and its spells in hand. I don't think the card is really good enough as I certainly don't want to mill artifacts or enchantments and especially planeswalkers - Sevinne's Reclamation notwithstanding - but maybe with Sensei's Divining Top dowsing might be solid.

[ElTuberias]

Tormod, the Desecrator was fun and sometimes effective, but at four-MV he was seemed lacking in my deck. Another build might be another story, but for now, I'm really digging Graveborn Muse in that slot.

I run both in my version. Muse is a nice removal magnet as people aren't that keen on me refilling my hand. Tormod does get nice when you can pair him with Withered Wretch as in the end step before your turn you can remove the cards you don't need from your yard with Wretch to have a potential army to swing with depending on how much mana you would like to spend. One generic and a card from the yard to get a 2/2 zombie instant speed is very nice. It hasn't yet but with the right timing it can also provide some utility for when other people board wipe and you have Corpse Knight, Wayward Servant, Diregraf Captain, Plague Belcher & Vengeful Dead.

So far, Tormod has been nice when the network of other zombies are there to support his abilities. It will be a tough day if I end up cutting him from the deck. He fits how I want to play being both aggressive and grinding out my opponents.

Could you show me your deck please?

[Rframpt]

Could you show me your deck please?

Certainly ElTuberias.

My Varina List: https://www.moxfield.com/decks/geEvj5GMtEOSiM6v4Hdrzw

My list varies a bit from the rest, in terms of general removal package I have. I have some cards that I am trying out Cauldron Haze & Revivify which I am uncertain about the amount I need and in which case which one I prefer.

Deck usually wins through a combination of general aggro plays, with an aristocats finish. Should that fail or not be viable then we move to a control finish with looping Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant + Phyrexian Tower / High Market + Unholy Grotto to continuously wipe the board.

Necromancy have been a very fun card to run for some instant speed reanimation for a creature.

Noxious Ghoul is there for the mass reanimation spells to likely wipe the board non-zombie creatures my opponents control.

There are combo lines but they aren't the main goal, but if the game goes long might at well have something that can end things