Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

[Zed117]

Looking at tunning my deck down a bit more midpower. Cut mana crypt and a few other things. I own a Rot hulk already, so considering going less aggro and a bit more reanimator with some combos.

[toctheyounger]

Yeah I'm, personally not interested in the surveil lands here. Surveil IS good, but not at that cost. Late game I don't care about the surveil, as I can loot just fine, and early game an untapped land is far, far preferable to me than a single surveil trigger. I'm just not interested at all. I think in a slower, grindier shell, or a spot reanimation shell they would be fine, but we're kind of reliant on tempo here and hitting a tapped land is a bit rough. Sure, there's a fetch on end step plan, but I don't want to be relying on corner cases for my inclusions to be good.

[Zed117]

https://www.moxfield.com/decks/GRjik-7FLEa3d97JLdm9hw

Current stab at making Varina more recursion focused. Have Vile Entomber, Entomb, Buried Alive to help add to the grave. Along with Reanimate, Dread Return and Oversold Cemetery, plus some of the recursions zombies: Rot Hulk, Phyrexian Delver, Havengul Lich, Apprentice Necromancer, Coffin Queen (did not know she was errata to be a zombie), and relentless dead.

Still have a good amount of 1-3 cmc zombies to get Varina going, and Living Death, Zombie Apocalypse, Rise of The Dark Realms and Agadeem awakening for a mass reanimation with drain.

Win cons: Mass reanimation with Gary & drain, tombstone stariwell, gravecralwer combo.


If the recursion does not work as well as I hope I can always go back to aggro. Thoughts?

[pokken]

https://www.moxfield.com/decks/GRjik-7FLEa3d97JLdm9hw

Current stab at making Varina more recursion focused. Have Vile Entomber, Entomb, Buried Alive to help add to the grave. Along with Reanimate, Dread Return and Oversold Cemetery, plus some of the recursions zombies: Rot Hulk, Phyrexian Delver, Havengul Lich, Apprentice Necromancer, Coffin Queen (did not know she was errata to be a zombie), and relentless dead.

Still have a good amount of 1-3 cmc zombies to get Varina going, and Living Death, Zombie Apocalypse, Rise of The Dark Realms and Agadeem awakening for a mass reanimation with drain.

Win cons: Mass reanimation with Gary & drain, tombstone stariwell, gravecralwer combo.


If the recursion does not work as well as I hope I can always go back to aggro. Thoughts?

IMHO Cosmic Intervention is a really nice card to have in this kinda deck. You can get a triple Gray Merchant of Asphodel off any sac outlet by saccing your board, then re-sac'ing them at the end step and having everything show back up the next player's end step. This has many advantages in that:

1) It's cheaper than most mass reanimations
2) it doubles ETBs
3) it beats any sort of grave hate including Rest in Peace
4) The mana efficiency of Foretell can't be beat

Along that line, Sevinne's Reclamation is the absolute best targeted reanimation spell because it recovers altars and can simultaneously get two combo piece from the bin for 5 mana or all three for 8 (from hand). I would play this over Dread Return personally but I prefer both obviously :D


--

Overall I think your land count is low and your mana rock count is high. If you replaced all the talismans with fetchlands, I think you'd be in a much better place for reliably hitting your lands and not getting blown out by Hour of Revelation or Bane of Progress. Just this man's opinion though of course.

--

And one last plug for a couple rando creatures:

Razorlash Transmogrant is very good. It generally represents:
1) the ability to make a 4 power attacker for BB endlessly
2) the ability to go functionally infinite with a large Crypt of Agadeem activation where you can loop it with Phyrexian Altar equal to the B in your pool; with Headless Rider it can go infinite.
3) is a great card to pitch to Varina.

It has some downsides but my general experience has been it's online by turn 6 in most games, and that's fine. Additionally you can just pay the full 6 for it sometimes and that's not the worst.


Lazotep Reaver is the only 2 mana for 2 zombies card in the game that I can find and it consistently overperforms for me.

--

Happy brain buffet!

[Zed117]

https://www.moxfield.com/decks/GRjik-7FLEa3d97JLdm9hw

Current stab at making Varina more recursion focused. Have Vile Entomber, Entomb, Buried Alive to help add to the grave. Along with Reanimate, Dread Return and Oversold Cemetery, plus some of the recursions zombies: Rot Hulk, Phyrexian Delver, Havengul Lich, Apprentice Necromancer, Coffin Queen (did not know she was errata to be a zombie), and relentless dead.

Still have a good amount of 1-3 cmc zombies to get Varina going, and Living Death, Zombie Apocalypse, Rise of The Dark Realms and Agadeem awakening for a mass reanimation with drain.

Win cons: Mass reanimation with Gary & drain, tombstone stariwell, gravecralwer combo.


If the recursion does not work as well as I hope I can always go back to aggro. Thoughts?

IMHO Cosmic Intervention is a really nice card to have in this kinda deck. You can get a triple Gray Merchant of Asphodel off any sac outlet by saccing your board, then re-sac'ing them at the end step and having everything show back up the next player's end step. This has many advantages in that:

1) It's cheaper than most mass reanimations
2) it doubles ETBs
3) it beats any sort of grave hate including Rest in Peace
4) The mana efficiency of Foretell can't be beat

Along that line, Sevinne's Reclamation is the absolute best targeted reanimation spell because it recovers altars and can simultaneously get two combo piece from the bin for 5 mana or all three for 8 (from hand). I would play this over Dread Return personally but I prefer both obviously :D


--

Overall I think your land count is low and your mana rock count is high. If you replaced all the talismans with fetchlands, I think you'd be in a much better place for reliably hitting your lands and not getting blown out by Hour of Revelation or Bane of Progress. Just this man's opinion though of course.

--

And one last plug for a couple rando creatures:

Razorlash Transmogrant is very good. It generally represents:
1) the ability to make a 4 power attacker for BB endlessly
2) the ability to go functionally infinite with a large Crypt of Agadeem activation where you can loop it with Phyrexian Altar equal to the B in your pool; with Headless Rider it can go infinite.
3) is a great card to pitch to Varina.

It has some downsides but my general experience has been it's online by turn 6 in most games, and that's fine. Additionally you can just pay the full 6 for it sometimes and that's not the worst.


Lazotep Reaver is the only 2 mana for 2 zombies card in the game that I can find and it consistently overperforms for me.

--

Happy brain buffet!

I have a lazotep reaver somewhere good idea.
Will need to pick up Sevine and Cosmic for sure. Thanks! I could cut the 3 talismans for lands, hate to not see a 2 land and a rock opening hand consistently, but maybe I don't need that much ramp since most of my stuff is 3cmc.

[pzbw7z]

Has anyone run the Deathstar in Varina? I'm faced with rebuilding after the disappointing experiment with the try-hard list, and I think I want to try some different things.

Sensei's Divining Top is rarely a bad card in any deck, and Aetherflux Reservoir can be a win-con with recursion loops and while Bolas's Citadel isn't great in a high-MV list without Top in play, it might just be fun enough to give it a go.

Top was awesome in Prosper but Stella doesn't have time for it, so my copy is available now. The Deathstar is going in either Varina or perhaps Rowan.

[pokken]

Has anyone run the Deathstar in Varina? I'm faced with rebuilding after the disappointing experiment with the try-hard list, and I think I want to try some different things.

Sensei's Divining Top is rarely a bad card in any deck, and Aetherflux Reservoir can be a win-con with recursion loops and while Bolas's Citadel isn't great in a high-MV list without Top in play, it might just be fun enough to give it a go.

I think citadel would be great given varina's ability to clear the top of your deck. It would probably be in a higher curved deck with more ramp. as far as how to approach that deck, I would - if budget was not an issue - go heavy on the Faith's Reward / fetchland plan. If budget is an issue, I dunno, maybe rituals? Ritualing out a citadel is pretty strong.

hate to not see a 2 land and a rock opening hand consistently, but maybe I don't need that much ramp since most of my stuff is 3cmc.

The sequencing of 1 mana zombie, rock, varina, is not great (and requires that none of those lands be taplands! A single tapland and it's now tapland, rock, varina). And you don't wanna take turn 3 off casting a 3 drop you coulda cast with 3 lands, when you could have also just deployed a 2 drop.

I think it's worth everyone's time to try getting the 2 drop and land count up enough to regularly go 1-2-3-varina. It's the best thing Varina can do imho.

YMMV etc.

(Side note: There's quite a bit of detailed discussion of mana rocks throughout the thread, but I can't find the specific post I am thinking of (imho, they are just plain bad, including Arcane Signet). You might find searching for "chrome mox" or "springleaf drum" helpful.)


EDIT: I Found the writeup I did for my thread about sequencing with Varina. I think it's worth a read even if you disagree eventually
http://nxs.wf/np173380

[Zed117]

Has anyone run the Deathstar in Varina? I'm faced with rebuilding after the disappointing experiment with the try-hard list, and I think I want to try some different things.

Sensei's Divining Top is rarely a bad card in any deck, and Aetherflux Reservoir can be a win-con with recursion loops and while Bolas's Citadel isn't great in a high-MV list without Top in play, it might just be fun enough to give it a go.

I think citadel would be great given varina's ability to clear the top of your deck. It would probably be in a higher curved deck with more ramp. as far as how to approach that deck, I would - if budget was not an issue - go heavy on the Faith's Reward / fetchland plan. If budget is an issue, I dunno, maybe rituals? Ritualing out a citadel is pretty strong.

hate to not see a 2 land and a rock opening hand consistently, but maybe I don't need that much ramp since most of my stuff is 3cmc.

The sequencing of 1 mana zombie, rock, varina, is not great (and requires that none of those lands be taplands! A single tapland and it's now tapland, rock, varina). And you don't wanna take turn 3 off casting a 3 drop you coulda cast with 3 lands, when you could have also just deployed a 2 drop.

I think it's worth everyone's time to try getting the 2 drop and land count up enough to regularly go 1-2-3-varina. It's the best thing Varina can do imho.

YMMV etc.

(Side note: There's quite a bit of detailed discussion of mana rocks throughout the thread, but I can't find the specific post I am thinking of (imho, they are just plain bad, including Arcane Signet). You might find searching for "chrome mox" or "springleaf drum" helpful.)


EDIT: I Found the writeup I did for my thread about sequencing with Varina. I think it's worth a read even if you disagree eventually
http://nxs.wf/np173380

Makes sense actually. Okay cutting mana rocks besides sol ring, and adding in more 1-2 drops and gonna look at my taplands. Maybe the flavor of Field of the Dead is not worth it even though the new art is sick.

[pokken]

Makes sense actually. Okay cutting mana rocks besides sol ring, and adding in more 1-2 drops and gonna look at my taplands. Maybe the flavor of Field of the Dead is not worth it even though the new art is sick.

don't forget Springleaf Drum -- very good with 1 drop zombies letting you power out a 3 drop zombie on turn 2 which is really good. do some cool early game stuff by counting your mana right.

and again just want to reiterate the whole anti-signets-in-varina thing is just my opinion and you may find you really like them. I have been very happy in the deck without them, and bombing stuff like Crypt of Agadeem and Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx for endgame mana. disclaimer :D

I think the @toctheyounger has been running without as many signets for a while so may have some thoughts on how it's gone for him

[yeti1069]

Makes sense actually. Okay cutting mana rocks besides sol ring, and adding in more 1-2 drops and gonna look at my taplands. Maybe the flavor of Field of the Dead is not worth it even though the new art is sick.

don't forget Springleaf Drum -- very good with 1 drop zombies letting you power out a 3 drop zombie on turn 2 which is really good.

How?
Turn 1, land, zombie
Turn 2, land, drop Springleaf, you now have 2 mana available if you tap your 1-drop zombie.

I've cut back on rocks here and in some other decks, like Sefris. I do think that they're still worth running here if you have a slightly higher curve (playing more of the higher value 4- and 5-drop zombies over some of the low-value 1- and 2-drop zombies and/or combo-centric pieces).

[pokken]

Makes sense actually. Okay cutting mana rocks besides sol ring, and adding in more 1-2 drops and gonna look at my taplands. Maybe the flavor of Field of the Dead is not worth it even though the new art is sick.

don't forget Springleaf Drum -- very good with 1 drop zombies letting you power out a 3 drop zombie on turn 2 which is really good.

How?
Turn 1, land, zombie
Turn 2, land, drop Springleaf, you now have 2 mana available if you tap your 1-drop zombie.

I've cut back on rocks here and in some other decks, like Sefris. I do think that they're still worth running here if you have a slightly higher curve (playing more of the higher value 4- and 5-drop zombies over some of the low-value 1- and 2-drop zombies and/or combo-centric pieces).

Yea my brain did a math fail :D drum makes a lot of fun early sequences tho.

For the most part I think bigger mana signet builds are a budget plan and worse than finding a big mana land or rituals, or even fetchland ramp.

Again just my opinion. Its fine. Just gonna be a weird experience. I'm pretty against playing like, five signets? That's like, one in three games you see one early or something. Very inconsistent.

[damens]

How does the cosmic Intervention lead to saccing 3 Times, shouldnt it be t
2? When the cards Return from exile These are new instances of the card similar how persist works right? Saccing them should put them in the graveyard

[pokken]

How does the cosmic Intervention lead to saccing 3 Times, shouldnt it be t
2? When the cards Return from exile These are new instances of the card similar how persist works right? Saccing them should put them in the graveyard

CI leads to three total triggers thusly:
(Note: It is as you noted only two sacrifices and returns)

1. cast Cosmic Intervention, setting up a replacement effect until end of turn
2. cast Gray Merchant of Asphodel - trigger resolves
3. sacrifice gray merchant, replace with CI
4. end step, gray merchant returns.
5. sacrifice gray merchant again, replacing it again with CI effect
6. at the beginning of next opponent's endstep it returns, triggering a third time

---

CI is often misunderstood, because the replacement effect lasts until end of turn you can functionally double trigger it but it delays until the next endstep the subsequent time.

Probably the most ridiculous turn I ever had with CI was when I had sandbagged 3 fetchlands and played a Scorched Ruins, sacrificing two other lands. :D

[damens]

Ahh because it doesnt target the creature but is a Global effect. I mean still need 7 mana qith Gary but yeah that is really good and instant speed if User on different turns. Good und Thing I have a copy.

[Rframpt]

How does the cosmic Intervention lead to saccing 3 Times, shouldnt it be t
2? When the cards Return from exile These are new instances of the card similar how persist works right? Saccing them should put them in the graveyard

CI leads to three total triggers thusly:
(Note: It is as you noted only two sacrifices and returns)

1. cast Cosmic Intervention, setting up a replacement effect until end of turn
2. cast Gray Merchant of Asphodel - trigger resolves
3. sacrifice gray merchant, replace with CI
4. end step, gray merchant returns.
5. sacrifice gray merchant again, replacing it again with CI effect
6. at the beginning of next opponent's endstep it returns, triggering a third time

---

CI is often misunderstood, because the replacement effect lasts until end of turn you can functionally double trigger it but it delays until the next endstep the subsequent time.

Probably the most ridiculous turn I ever had with CI was when I had sandbagged 3 fetchlands and played a Scorched Ruins, sacrificing two other lands. :D

Now that is really cool to see and hear that interaction have me adding Cosmic Intervention back into my list. Those are more pr less the way I want to finish off the games that I play when combat is less favorable. You also don't necessarily need Gary for it and if you board is wide enough Corpse Knight and/or Wayward Servant could be what punches the last bit of damage

[pokken]

Yea, the nice part about CI is it gives you a way to double up on those drain triggers without needing a mana sac outlet (even good ol phyrexian ghoul will do)

Just remember the way it sequences things return one at a time via separate delayed triggers. So you need to put the drain guys in first or stack Gary so he hits last.

It's actually kinda convenient in some ways because it is more of a natural way to think about things returning and it works better with clones (ask tivit how he knows :D)


The biggest disadvantage to CI is it not working with Crypt of Agadeem, which is a very strong sequencing option with Living Death et al (sac your board then activate crypt).

[pzbw7z]

Something occurred to me tonight that I wish I had thought of while I still had that try-hard list assembled; I want to play Peer into the Abyss, discard, pass turn and then in the next upkeep, activate Emergence Zone or play Borne Upon a Wind to play a reanimation spell.

It will obviously take some mana to play PitA with enough left to fire things off, but assuming either Crypt of Agadeem or Songs of the Damned, I should need only three mana up for either method of triggering instant speed plus playing Living Death or Zombie Apocalypse.

It's more of a lark than a serious idea, but I think it will be epic to actually pull off.

[Zed117]

Cuts I am considering next and replacements.
-Rooftop Storm, pretty expensive and mostly win more outside of minor combo potential.
-Havengul Lich. Without Rooftop is only okay at 5 mana.
-Rise of The Dark Realms. Very expensive and I can just tutor for Living Death, Zombies apocalypse. Also have Agadeem and Rot Hulk to reanimate a combo.
-Necroduality. Seems win more in this deck compared to other zombie commanders and the 4 mana might be better spent elsewhere.
-Zombie Master. This one I'm on the fence. The regenerate and swampwalk might come in handy as an alternate finisher but it's on the board.


Replacements:
-Nevinyrral I like the idea of holding the table hostage with this guy, using unholy grotto/volrath to put him on top, and be able to reanimate it. Fun synergy with Mike.
-Plague Belcher/Putrid Goblin. Another finisher with Mike
-Bone Miser. Bit high on the curve but cutting havengul Lich makes it an even swap mana wise.
-reconisance I'm not running many lords but for 1 mana seems like a decent include the more I can think about it.
-Fleshbag/Tainted Adversary/Death Baron/Diregraf colossus/Silversmote Ghoul. Another 2-3 drop to curve into Varina.

[Rframpt]

One thing of note with Diregraf Colossus is that when doing a mass-reanimation when it enters it sees all the zombies from the yard at the time it entered. even when they all are currently on the stack with abilities which also funny enough includes itself.

I have been a big fan of Bone Miser in my list it feels very nice to have it once you start attacking.
In terms of Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant also get it with a sacrifice outlet so you can sacrifice him before his ETB resovles. Helps to have an army ready for attacks once it becomes your turn again

[yeti1069]

One thing of note with Diregraf Colossus is that when doing a mass-reanimation when it enters it sees all the zombies from the yard at the time it entered. even when they all are currently on the stack with abilities which also funny enough includes itself.

I have been a big fan of Bone Miser in my list it feels very nice to have it once you start attacking.
In terms of Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant also get it with a sacrifice outlet so you can sacrifice him before his ETB resovles. Helps to have an army ready for attacks once it becomes your turn again

Diregraf Colossus' power-pumping ability doesn't go on the stack. It's a replacement effect, not a trigger. Otherwise, yeah, it sees all other zombies it came in with IF they all entered from the graveyard (ie, Patriarch's Bidding). This doesn't work with Living Death since they go to exile first.

[Rframpt]

Appreciate the correction in how Diregraf Colossus works. And alse very good to remind that it wouldn't work with Living Death.

[Zed117]

One thing of note with Diregraf Colossus is that when doing a mass-reanimation when it enters it sees all the zombies from the yard at the time it entered. even when they all are currently on the stack with abilities which also funny enough includes itself.

I have been a big fan of Bone Miser in my list it feels very nice to have it once you start attacking.
In terms of Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant also get it with a sacrifice outlet so you can sacrifice him before his ETB resovles. Helps to have an army ready for attacks once it becomes your turn again

Sac him before his ETB resolves? Doesn't his ETB make zombies for every creature that dies that turn. Why would I want to stop that?

Also no one thinks I'm crazy for cutting Rooftop or Necroduality?

[Rframpt]

One thing of note with Diregraf Colossus is that when doing a mass-reanimation when it enters it sees all the zombies from the yard at the time it entered. even when they all are currently on the stack with abilities which also funny enough includes itself.

I have been a big fan of Bone Miser in my list it feels very nice to have it once you start attacking.
In terms of Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant also get it with a sacrifice outlet so you can sacrifice him before his ETB resovles. Helps to have an army ready for attacks once it becomes your turn again

Sac him before his ETB resolves? Doesn't his ETB make zombies for every creature that dies that turn. Why would I want to stop that?

Also no one thinks I'm crazy for cutting Rooftop or Necroduality?

Because then you can pay the 1 mana to board wipe and get extra zombies should the opponents have any you need to get rid of. Sacrificing him before the ETB resolves would then also count the creatures wiped with Nevin.

I recently cut Necroduality for the exact reason you stated. felt so much like a win more card and I usually couldn't take the turn off to play an enchantment would rather spend the mana deploying more threats to the board

[yeti1069]

One thing of note with Diregraf Colossus is that when doing a mass-reanimation when it enters it sees all the zombies from the yard at the time it entered. even when they all are currently on the stack with abilities which also funny enough includes itself.

I have been a big fan of Bone Miser in my list it feels very nice to have it once you start attacking.
In terms of Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant also get it with a sacrifice outlet so you can sacrifice him before his ETB resovles. Helps to have an army ready for attacks once it becomes your turn again

Sac him before his ETB resolves? Doesn't his ETB make zombies for every creature that dies that turn. Why would I want to stop that?

Also no one thinks I'm crazy for cutting Rooftop or Necroduality?

With Nev's ETB on the stack, you sac, wipe the board, then make a 2/2 for all the creatures that died that turn, including the ones you just killed. Now you have a small army of 2/2s and everyone else has nothing.

Necro I cut a while ago. I just rarely found space to cast it and then rarely felt like it bridged me from whatever I was doing to actually winning--either I was already getting there, or it didn't get me there anyway.

Rooftop I think is valuable if you are running a higher curve of zombies, are running Havengul, or are running some of the big draw cards. Otherwise, it's not worth it outside of combo, and even there, Phyrexian Altar covers the same combo lines in most cases, but costs half the mana.

[Zed117]

One thing of note with Diregraf Colossus is that when doing a mass-reanimation when it enters it sees all the zombies from the yard at the time it entered. even when they all are currently on the stack with abilities which also funny enough includes itself.

I have been a big fan of Bone Miser in my list it feels very nice to have it once you start attacking.
In terms of Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant also get it with a sacrifice outlet so you can sacrifice him before his ETB resovles. Helps to have an army ready for attacks once it becomes your turn again

Sac him before his ETB resolves? Doesn't his ETB make zombies for every creature that dies that turn. Why would I want to stop that?

Also no one thinks I'm crazy for cutting Rooftop or Necroduality?

With Nev's ETB on the stack, you sac, wipe the board, then make a 2/2 for all the creatures that died that turn, including the ones you just killed. Now you have a small army of 2/2s and everyone else has nothing.

Necro I cut a while ago. I just rarely found space to cast it and then rarely felt like it bridged me from whatever I was doing to actually winning--either I was already getting there, or it didn't get me there anyway.

Rooftop I think is valuable if you are running a higher curve of zombies, are running Havengul, or are running some of the big draw cards. Otherwise, it's not worth it outside of combo, and even there, Phyrexian Altar covers the same combo lines in most cases, but costs half the mana.

Makes sense, I came to the same idea after reading though the thread. Added Vamp tutor so I can more reliably get a mass reanimation, finisher or altar. Does my curve look okay? I have quite a few 1-2-3 drops to curve into Varina. I do have several 4 drops, a few 5, two 6 drops and a 7. All of them feel pretty necessary though. Especially with ways to cheat them in.