Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

[Rframpt]

I see thanks. Mike does help though I assume. I thought more along the line of a combo with plague belcher. I think I will give the New geralt a try as well instead of a lord. Almost like a diregraf colossus and cathars crusade on the same card.

Basically the gameplan is casting cheap zombies, get Varina out turn 4 and using her loot ability to find Reanimation pieces or inreraction while filling our graveyard. Either win through mass Reanimation loop or some inherent aristocrat combo or combat dmg.
Do you find 2 Reanimation pieces are enough?

My list has 2 single target reanimation spells in the form of Necromancy & Dread Return. Sevinne's Reclamation can also function as a single target reanimation spell, but can also target other permanent types as long as they are 3 cmc or less. So far I think that has worked out well enough for my list. And I also run three mass reanimation spells with Living Death, Patriarch's Bidding & Zombie Apocalypse.

I don't know if I would run new Gisa and new Geralf in my list as they happen to be human which while not always will get destroyed by Zombie Apocalypse and will also die once I mass reanimate with Noxious Ghoul.

[pokken]

In your experience do you usually win by the mass reanimation combo? Is there a way to loop it? Or is it usually like a mike, plague belcher; gravecrawler, Gary combo.

My most common win lines are:

Intuition for Phyrexian Altar Sevinne's Reclamation and Gravecrawler with a drain outlet on the field.

mill until enough pieces are in the bin then drop one of the major 'zombie loop' combos; the most common one surprisingly is Haakon, Stromgald Scourge + anything. I don't know why that hits so much but I'm regularly able to have Haakon, Stromgald Scourge Corpse Knight and Universal Automaton or something in the bin (or Foulmire Knight // Profane Insight or Changeling Outcast, drop an altar and just win.

The missing piece is almost always some way to put an altar on the field and for some reason people think altars are safe in the graveyard, so Sevinne's Reclamation figures in a lot of wins.

I'd say less common but frequent is Gray Merchant of Asphodel off a mass reanimation; that's usually lethal.

[pzbw7z]

In your experience do you usually win by the mass reanimation combo? Is there a way to loop it? Or is it usually like a mike, plague belcher; gravecrawler, Gary combo.
I guess zombies just kinda allow you to combo off by chance even on an aggro plan^^

Mass reanimation is effective only if there's a pay-off in the mix; Corpse Knight, Wayward Servant or Gray Merchant of Asphodel. In my experience, combo wins are much more common. Gravecrawler - or one of Haakon, Stromgald Scourge's posse - loops with an EtB or LtB pinger - e.g. Plague Belcher are the easy way. Liliana, Untouched by Death enables a few other routes, one with Rooftop Storm and another with Shambling Ghast. Both require a sacrifice outlet.

As for repeatable mass reanimation, if Repository Skaab is in the pile then we can Living Death, retrieve Living Death with Skaab, sacrifice everything and repeat as many times as we can afford to cast Living Death. If Phyrexian Altar is our sacrifice outlet, then we can go all day. Ashnod's Altar would help, but not indefinitely. Zombie Apocalypse can substitute for Living Death and there are a few other substitutes as well.

There are certainly many other ways to combo but I haven't had breakfast yet!

[damens]

Thanks everyone, I think I am pretty happy with my list, probably running a few too many lands but will have to test it out and see

[pokken]

probably running a few too many lands but will have to test it out and see

pretty unlikely. Commander players are incredibly greedy about land counts and more than 40 is probably correct in more decks than people think :D

[Rframpt]

The joke is always when in doubt on what to cut, cut a land. but I agree with pokken. Many decks should probably run more lands and be closer to 40 rather than say the default is between 36-37. It also depends on how low your curve is and how many of your lands enter tapped and all that. It is always a balancing act and if you can make it work then that is how you should run your decks.

[damens]

I currently plan with 43 lands. According to a hypergeometric calculator it allows 4 landrops by turn 4 in 80%, so I figured I give it a try. Worst case, they land in the bin and can fuel varinas ability. If I notice it not running smoothly I can always cut one or two

[toctheyounger]

I see thanks. Mike does help though I assume. I thought more along the line of a combo with plague belcher. I think I will give the New geralt a try as well instead of a lord. Almost like a diregraf colossus and cathars crusade on the same card.

Basically the gameplan is casting cheap zombies, get Varina out turn 4 and using her loot ability to find Reanimation pieces or inreraction while filling our graveyard. Either win through mass Reanimation loop or some inherent aristocrat combo or combat dmg.
Do you find 2 Reanimation pieces are enough?

Welp, sounds like the crew has chimed in well before I got here, hope you got the answers you wanted!

Yeah, Mike is fine. It does combo specifically with Belcher and Putrid Goblin and that's pretty much it. There are very quick combo lines you can use to go off I think like turn 3, but it's a really, really christmas land sort of hand you're mulling for, so honestly Mike is just often not worth it.

Ideally you want several zombies in play quite early, before you get Varina into play. Otherwise, yeah, you pretty much got it. Hold up interaction to protect your pieces and make your window work. It's quite a robust plan, in that it has some inevitability to it. If you can stay in the game long enough you will get there, it's just a matter of choosing your line, finding the pieces and making sure you keep your hand full.


Honestly, I would like more reanimation in the deck. I think personally I would just prefer it on a body via ETB or similar. I like Dread Return, but I don't like the idea of exiling it (although thinking on it Beseech the Mirror can get it and I have been toying around with lines on that card). I believe @yeti1069 has been on Rot Hulk for a while, which is a card I really like, but it's very hard to actually attain a copy of. Not so much for price, but for only having been printed once in an obscure supplemental product.

[Rframpt]

Rot Hulk is very high on my list of cards I would love to have, but I hope we get a reprint of it soon. Its effect doesn't deserve such a price tag. In terms of other reanimation spells, I love Necromancy, it is so fun to steal a creature from another reanimator. I used to run Animate Dead as well, but being able to cast Necromancy instant speed edge it out over Animate Dead. And if you are also on Sevinne's Reclamation you can target your Necromancy to get that bigger creature you might need for the situation.

[damens]

Since my playgroup is cool with proxies that is not a problem for me. How would you use it. If I remember there are some combos with it and gary.

[Falkenbach]

I ve run rothulk for two years now together with reanimate / necromancy and apprentice necromancer. He is one i would never take out as he functions like a mini mass reanimation (sometimes he even gets the whole yard of zombies to the field as not always theres more than 5 zombies in the yard)

Grimgrin and mikaeus are also two that i have a hard time separating from. In mid tier playgroups grimgrin really puts in work.

I also run low ramp ( nykthos/cabal coffers/.. lands)
Cosmic intervention and sevinnes reclamation with alot of fetches

The deck is pretty consequent in winning / or doing good aldo i dont run infinite combos ( aldo with zombies its easy to find one along the way you didnt realise you had).

I do play in medium powerlevel playgroup / LGS

[pokken]

I just cannot bring myself to spend that much for a Rot Hulk when it'll be $2 if it was printed in an actual set. It's annoying. So I wait for it to be reprinted in a commander deck or something.

[yeti1069]

Since my playgroup is cool with proxies that is not a problem for me. How would you use it. If I remember there are some combos with it and gary.

Rot Hulk can just be straight value--drop it in and get back 3 zombies. Especially easy if you have Rooftop Storm, or a spot reanimation spell.

The "combo" is pairing it up with Apprentice Necromancer. The Apprentice can get reanimate Hulk, which can then return the Apprentice + 2 other zombies, and be ready to get reanimated by Apprentice again next turn. If you have Lightning Greaves and a sac outlet, you could do that as many times as you have to spend. If you also have a zombie that pings on either ETB or death (of itself or another zombie), that would win. I haven't been in that situation, but I've certainly been able to get Hulk back a few turns in a row for big value.

[damens]

I guess I am just going to annoy you guys with questions but here goes. How do you decide with how many creatures to attack? Since most of the zombies are low cmc I find there is danger in just straight up looting in the grave. Do you attack with 1-2 creature every turn or just go full value and attack with maybe 5-6. I have been goldfishing a bit to see if I get Varina out consistently but other than that I find this deck difficult to assess as I cannot really react to any opponents.

[pokken]

I guess I am just going to annoy you guys with questions but here goes. How do you decide with how many creatures to attack? Since most of the zombies are low cmc I find there is danger in just straight up looting in the grave. Do you attack with 1-2 creature every turn or just go full value and attack with maybe 5-6. I have been goldfishing a bit to see if I get Varina out consistently but other than that I find this deck difficult to assess as I cannot really react to any opponents.

I always attack with everything except if critical creatures will die and I don't have a mass reanimate. But my plan is to use the looting to find a combo piece so I don't care much if creatures die.

[Rframpt]

I guess I am just going to annoy you guys with questions but here goes. How do you decide with how many creatures to attack? Since most of the zombies are low cmc I find there is danger in just straight up looting in the grave. Do you attack with 1-2 creature every turn or just go full value and attack with maybe 5-6. I have been goldfishing a bit to see if I get Varina out consistently but other than that I find this deck difficult to assess as I cannot really react to any opponents.

I don't thing that is an annoying question and I rather encourage people to ask the question they are curious about. Like Pokken I usually attack with the disposable bodies so I can setup mass reanimation. But it also depends on how the board is and what mana is held by the opponents. I have been blown out by a Notion Thief which utterly destroyed me and tilted my off the end of the earth.

If someone is open they will bare the brunt of the damage when I get to my combat step. Or if I see people with resources I rather force them to use them by making annoying blocks and the like. But again it depends on what the board is like as well as what is in my hand and how many cards I have at the start of combat

[pzbw7z]

I experimented with a list that included Sensei's Divining Top. Top helped me decide whether to loot because I could tell if what was on top was stuff I wanted to pitch when the stuff in my hand was valuable.

The list can be built to facilitate looting; cards that can be profitably pitched can be used. These include Master of Death, Silversmote Ghoul, Wonder Haakon, Stromgald Scourge to name a few. High-MV creatures are sometimes better just pitched. On the other hand, things that can't be easily recurred can be minimized. For instance, my deck can't recur 4+ MV enchantments or artifacts, so I avoid these. Tombstone Stairwell gets a pass because it's more fun than a barrel of monkeys.

The value of the graveyard is somewhat dependent on the amount of recursion; the more recursion, the more acceptable the risk of looting. Tutors make your recursion more accessible.

In short, it's complicated.

[toctheyounger]

Generally I will attack with everything if the situation allows. The exclusions to that are when combat math isn't favourable and I risk stalling with an empty board, or I'm looting for bigger than my hand size. Sometimes that's totally fine, you wanna wheel your hand and start again, sure. But it's important to remember Varina's trigger never gives you more than it takes, so it's important to keep your hand size up, otherwise swinging is just emptying your library into your yard and hoping for reanimation. Can be a fine idea, can be terrible. Most times it won't matter massively, but I don't like going hellbent, and if I can hold interaction I prefer to. That way you can at least trade up for the best interaction as you see it, same with lands.

But yeah, combat is a little complex in this deck. Generally speaking in most scenarios the right call is to turn everything sideways. We don't have combat damage triggers either so life totals aside it isn't the end of the world if your stuff dies, but it's usually worth thinking about at least a little where your guys are going. We don't care if they die, but it's best they die when we tell them to.

[pokken]

But it's important to remember Varina's trigger never gives you more than it takes

Minor quibble but for me anyway I am usually pretty close to parity with any Varina trigger; some cards are significantly better in the bin, and some cards are fine in the bin. I've won games blasting for 10 with Varina when my hand was empty then flashing back Sevinne's Reclamation or Dread Return and winning. on just 1 card a whole bunch of times (dump everything, fish for a mass reanimation).

[toctheyounger]

But it's important to remember Varina's trigger never gives you more than it takes

Minor quibble but for me anyway I am usually pretty close to parity with any Varina trigger; some cards are significantly better in the bin, and some cards are fine in the bin. I've won games blasting for 10 with Varina when my hand was empty then flashing back Sevinne's Reclamation or Dread Return and winning. on just 1 card a whole bunch of times (dump everything, fish for a mass reanimation).

Fair point. I generally don't bet on this happening though, it's a risky play. If I'm trying not to get blown out I would generally be more reserved in that sort of scenario. It's also worth noting that the lower your grip is the more a big play like that isn't protected. I guess it's not going to matter much, if you're low on grip you're probably taking any chance you can get anyway.

[damens]

It is pretty much how I imagined. I noticed most of the decklists I have seen run maybe 8 card advantage and about 35 lands. Have you noticed any inconsistencies? Or du you find your tutors get you there.
A few cards I found in my collection and haven't seen discussed here are bolas citadel and witch of the moors?
I decided to go the route of fewer lords and just built another zombie deck with either wilhelt or ghoulcaller gisa. Probably the latter to go more swarm zombies.

[pzbw7z]

There are a few cards that help us keep up with out land drops; Tithe and Land Tax are two that I use. Weathered Wayfarer is an all star at this, but he's not a Zombie so I don't use him despite his tremendous effectiveness. There are also some bargain cards that can help; Gift of Estates and Twisted Abomination to mention a few.

Tithe and Gift require dual land-type Plains to be really useful. Abomination is a pretty bad card if you don't need the land, but he's nice with mass reanimation and therefore an easy pitch.

Wayfarer can get any land, so he's especially nice if we're on the greedy Cabal Coffers - Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth plan - which I am not. Expedition Map helps with that plan as well as providing actual ramp.

Rituals can also make up for the lack of ramp. Dark Ritual and Cabal Coffers are nice. Songs of the Damned can be spectacular and Culling the Weak is a natural fit for Zombies.

Lastly there are the big mana lands. If our deck is heavily B - as it probably should be - Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx can make a load of mana, Crypt of Agadeem has a high enough ceiling to accept the comes-into-play-tapped downside.

[pokken]

I noticed most of the decklists I have seen run maybe 8 card advantage and about 35 lands. Have you noticed any inconsistencies?

I can only speak for myself but my build is very consistent at hitting 2 zombies then Varina, and starting the digging there on turn 4.

My "make sure I hit my lands' suite -
- 37 lands (36 + Agadeem's)

Fixing spells that come out before Varina
- brainstorm, epiphany at the drownyard, tithe, arcane denial, lim-dul's vault, plumb the forbidden, intuition, ponder, demonic tutor, skullclamp, land tax, weathered wayfarer, crucible of worlds, sevinne's reclamation, foulmire knight (the 3 mana draw), and undead augur

For by my count, 16 fixing effects. 15 if you aren't gutsy enough to bomb an Arcane Denial to help hit a land drop, but I am :D, and 17 if you count Springleaf Drum as a ramp spell which I do.

Phyrexian Altar and Ashnod's Altar can both help hit Varina mana as well in some circumstances, but you've got to really want it.

And lastly Phyrexian Tower can help get you to 4 mana in a pinch.

The Intuition package for "i have no confidence I am getting to my 4th land drop" is Sevinne's Reclamation + Crucible of Worlds + Field of the Dead if you have a fetchland already and Polluted Delta if not. It's pretty unpleasant because it means you're taking turn 4 off to flash back Sevinne's Reclamation or cast Crucible of Worlds (unless they give you Polluted Delta or you topdeck a land.

--

To ensure 2 zombies before Varina, I run 10 x 1 drop zombies, and 9 x 2 drop zombies, and 7 x 3 drop zombies, for a total of 26 - including Lazotep Reaver which makes 2 bodies (and is my low key favorite :D).

Generally I end up with some combination of two zombies and either a tap land or a cantrip, but it varies.

--
Lastly, my tap land count is a liiiiittle high with Fetid Pools because I had to scavenge my Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth for another deck. The total tapland count can be thought of as virtual 1 drops.

• fetid pool
• field of the dead
• fabled passage
• crypt of agadeem
• sunken hollow

I would probably cut fabled, sunken and fetid for untapped lands if I were to tune up a lot; I just really like the extra fetchables.

Weathered Wayfarer is an all star at this, but he's not a Zombie so I don't use him despite his tremendous effectiveness

I consider wayfarer and honorary zombie because of Field of the Dead :D

[pzbw7z]

Lastly, my tap land count is a liiiiittle high with Fetid Pools because I had to scavenge my Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth for another deck. The total tapland count can be thought of as virtual 1 drops.

• fetid pool
• field of the dead
• fabled passage
• crypt of agadeem
• sunken hollow

I would probably cut fabled, sunken and fetid for untapped lands if I were to tune up a lot; I just really like the extra fetchables.

Weathered Wayfarer is an all star at this, but he's not a Zombie so I don't use him despite his tremendous effectiveness

I consider wayfarer and honorary zombie because of Field of the Dead :D

I have seen Thundering Falls in a surprising number of super-fast cEDH deck lists, which leads me to believe that Undercity Sewers is easily the best tapped dual land for us.

Wayfarer is such a rock star; I use him elsewhere and the ability to get any land is just amazing.

[pokken]

I think in general we (read: those of us aiming to curve 1-2-3-Varina) should be playing closer to an aggro profile of lands because we have so many early game plays so I haven't added the black surveil lands yet.

I'm thinking about if I retune this deck removing all but field and crypt as tap lands, even cutting fabled passage.