[SCD] Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary

[pokken]

I don't disagree with you but I think the status quo is unacceptable. If the new policy is Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy is OK, then Rofellos should be as well.

Maybe we need a thread to discuss Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy (i'm not making it lol)

I've filled my quota for the month

[onering]

Eh, I hate Golos and think it needs a ban for several reasons, but dear God Leovold was a lot worse. It was Braids level bullcrap, just lock the game out turn 3-4. An absolutely miserable play style, deployed consistently and early, and it was all over during the period it was legal. Not as widespread as Golos, but close enough, and far worse in terms of it's effect on the game. It's possible to have a good game with Golos at the table, and was basically impossible to do so with Leo. That's not saying that Golos isn't cancer, but Leovold was stage four.

So my personal leovold experience was a lot better because it was so obviously ridiculous no one batted an eye when I asked them to put it away. And at that time, there just were a lot fewer of those kinds of commanders, and most of them were relegated to the competitive tryhards. I only ever had to play one game against Leovold to humor a friend and it was just as bad as expected.

He was just so bad that it was easier to avoid?

Nowadays I have a list of things I know are going to be yawn inducing. Korvold, Fae-Cursed King Wildfire Chulane, Teller of Tales Shrieking Drake Yarok, the Desecrated Sisay, Weatherlight Captain Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy - these games are always going to revolve around me spam-killing their commander until I run out of gas.

Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary to me is so far less problematic than any of these cards that I don't understand why he's still banned other than maaaaaybe the reserved list argument (although with the RL prices being such a burden on the format I don't see how that's much of an argument; he's going to be $200 on his own just from the reddit financier buyouts).

If the metagame is just supposed to absorb all this crap why can't we play our far more fair cards?

All the other busted commanders on the list are there because they take other people's resources away, but Rofellos has zero in common with any other card banned for being a commander.

Other banned commanders (who were because of the commander list, not because of being busted as a card like Griselbrand )

• Erayo, Soratami ascendant
• Braids, Cabal Minion
• Iona, Shield of Emeria
• Leovold, Emissary of Trest
• Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary

One of these things is not like the others.

---

Just to tighten that whole line of thinking up a bit, I feel like - from observations about how the RC is interacting with the banned list - that they have largely given up on 'too much mana too quickly' as a ban criteria.

Cards like Dockside Extortionist don't get any discussion whatsoever (at least, none that I have ever heard), despite that card being ubiquitous, obviously broken, and one of the most played cards in commander. Cards like Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy, same way.

Generally speaking they have given up on banning legendary creatures that don't take away resources; we have not seen a legend banned for its role as a commander since Leovold, Emissary of Trest (Iona, Shield of Emeria was more banned as a card, IIRC, not a lot of mono white decks running rampant).

Add all these things together and the game has completely moved on from the situation it was in when Rofellos was banned...eleven years ago, when the metagame was completely different, and having 6 mana on turn 3 was rare. Now it's the norm.

Short answer: ban Kinnan and Golos, and keep an eye on Sisay, Chulane, and Korvold.

Longer answer: Leovold was worse than any of these. I played against him a decent amount and the speed and consistency with which he soft locked games was absurd. It's also all he was used for, while I've at least seen Sissy and Yarok do interesting things from time to time, and even Golos can helm jank nonsense (even if he significantly strengthens anything he helms). Leovold was just always wheels, and if he did his thing even once it was game over. That's not saying these other cards are ok, Kinnan in particular is fast and consistent enough to eat a ban and Golos is ubiquitous enough to be bannable at his level of problematic, while the others are either obnoxiously consistent value engines or combo tutors. Being a bit slower than Kinnan and Leovold, and less omnipotent than Golos, puts them on the borderline, and frankly each would be my nominees if banned as a commander returned (and Golos, he's not as bad in the 99 because then he's harder to repeatedly cast and unlike prime time his 5 color identity is a liability that limits his inclusion in decks).

[pokken]

Short answer: ban Kinnan and Golos, and keep an eye on Sisay, Chulane, and Korvold.

Longer answer: Leovold was worse than any of these. I played against him a decent amount and the speed and consistency with which he soft locked games was absurd. It's also all he was used for, while I've at least seen Sissy and Yarok do interesting things from time to time, and even Golos can helm jank nonsense (even if he significantly strengthens anything he helms). Leovold was just always wheels, and if he did his thing even once it was game over. That's not saying these other cards are ok, Kinnan in particular is fast and consistent enough to eat a ban and Golos is ubiquitous enough to be bannable at his level of problematic, while the others are either obnoxiously consistent value engines or combo tutors. Being a bit slower than Kinnan and Leovold, and less omnipotent than Golos, puts them on the borderline, and frankly each would be my nominees if banned as a commander returned (and Golos, he's not as bad in the 99 because then he's harder to repeatedly cast and unlike prime time his 5 color identity is a liability that limits his inclusion in decks).

Obviously I agree that Leovold was horrific, definitely the worst commander ever printed in terms of gameplay. But at least in my area people almost ever got to play him. I'm sure that Golos has caused a lot more bad games by now than Leo just by virtue of being so socially acceptable to play. I played over a hundred games with various Golos decks myself and I never touched Leovold outside of Legacy

I mostly agree with your list. I wouldn't mind if they got more aggressive even than your 5 but I remember our long discussions about 'tone-setting' and I think it's possible that if they nuked Sisay, Weatherlight Captain, Golos, Tireless Pilgrim and Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy it would make people a bit gun-shy about building decks for these awful commanders, and possibly give WOTC some direction.

WOTC does seem to slowly be getting the memo about what's enjoyable in the command zone, but it's been a painful few years And I'm sure by the next set they will prove me wrong as the more pessimistic folks suggest.

[RxPhantom]

I played against a Rof deck when I was in pharmacy school in 2014/15 because everyone at the store was somehow cool with it. It was awful. It had a consistency that made it the archenemy in every single game because it was the only way to keep him from running away with it. I'm pretty sure it was an elfball deck, but it's been so long I don't remember. Nevertheless, I hope I never see him again.

[pokken]

I played against a Rof deck when I was in pharmacy school in 2014/15 because everyone at the store was somehow cool with it. It was awful. It had a consistency that made it the archenemy in every single game because it was the only way to keep him from running away with it. I'm pretty sure it was an elfball deck, but it's been so long I don't remember. Nevertheless, I hope I never see him again.

It sounds to me like you're pretty much describing all elfball decks, at least in my experience.

[umtiger]

I played against a Rof deck when I was in pharmacy school in 2014/15 because everyone at the store was somehow cool with it. It was awful. It had a consistency that made it the archenemy in every single game because it was the only way to keep him from running away with it. I'm pretty sure it was an elfball deck, but it's been so long I don't remember. Nevertheless, I hope I never see him again.

It sounds to me like you're pretty much describing all elfball decks, at least in my experience.

There's a big difference between facing down 8 green mana on turn 3 vs 8 power on turn 3.

Like you said in your earlier posts describing how your view games, mana advantage is tougher to claw back against than a board full of power/creatures (even if some of them are mana creatures).

[pokken]

Like you said in your earlier posts describing how your view games, mana advantage is tougher to claw back against

Which is why Azusa is just as scary as Rofellos in my opinion. Rofellos, the mana advantage is gone with the power advantage and he dies to a sideways glance. Azusa leaves the mana advantage around.

TO add a bit to that thought:

Generally speaking, the most powerful thing a commander can do is draw cards. The most powerful 'average power-level' generals draw cards and accelerate mana (golos, maelstrom wanderer, chulane). It's so much harder to get the balance of card draw in your deck than it is to get ramp level right. Especially when your general can turn ramp cards into threats.

You will note that if you look at 'powerful' generals the *only* one that just ramps is Animar, Soul of Elements, and he's used as a combo piece more than a ramp source. And Even animar is basically a high resilience lethal attacker.

I find cards like Selvala, Heart of the Wilds and Yisan, the Wanderer Bard to be far more threatening, and Azusa, Lost but Seeking with her wrath resistance to be even more threatening than either at middling power levels.

[umtiger]

Well, to sum up my point more succinctly; Rofellos is more wrath resistant than say a Ezuri (ie. generic elf-ball). And Ezuri is the most wrath resistant elf commander that you can have.

That is, facing Rofellos isn't the same as facing an elfball deck. Which you remarked about.

I also find Rofellos more consistent than Azusa, Selvala, and Yisan. And it's even more apparent at lower tune levels.

[pokken]

Well, to sum up my point more succinctly; Rofellos is more wrath resistant than say a Ezuri (ie. generic elf-ball). And Ezuri is the most wrath resistant elf commander that you can have.

That is, facing Rofellos isn't the same as facing an elfball deck. Which you remarked about.

I also find Rofellos more consistent than Azusa, Selvala, and Yisan. And it's even more apparent at lower tune levels.

The post from Rxphantom was about an elfball Rofellos deck which I was responding to. Rofellos is a much worse elfball commander than Ezuri (and also possibly rishkar).

Rofellos' best mid-tier deck is more of a bomb-heavy Rishkar's Expertise / Tooth and Nail type deck wanting to slam huge card draw spells into land ramp and bombs. Rofellos' best competitive deck wants to go infinite with Sword of the Paruns / Umbral Mantle / etc., and win with some kinda X spell

Rofellos is vastly less consistent than Azusa at mid power; Azusa has Eye of Ugin and a much better end game, responding far better to being wrathed. She pays for her commander tax by herself every time if you build the deck right. She's not quite as fast a Tooth and Nail but will respond better to removal and has a much more consistent end game. Rofellos' inability to play most of the good lands and take advantage of Crop Rotation and Sylvan Scrying at the degree Azusa is a huge negative mark.

I do agree that before Ramunap Excavator and Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger / Emrakul, the Promised End that Rofellos was a better general. Azusa's deck has gotten *vastly* better while Rofellos' has gotten worse and worse with every powerful land printed.

At lower tune levels Selvala and Yisan are weaker than Rofellos, but only marginally. I have played against a lot of fair Selvala decks and I'd say anywhere 6-7 power level or better her ability to draw cards puts her ahead of Rofellos at consistency. She can also make truly absurd amounts of mana more easily in the mid game even with fair draws.

[umtiger]

I'm sure all power/budget tiers of Rofellos would play Staff of Domination. I'm sure all of them can play Crop Rotation/Sylvan Scrying also.

You play lands to make mana, Rofellos does it with forests. You continue to insist it's a downside, but it's not. Rofellos doesn't have an inability to play good lands. If those lands really are that good, Rofellos can play them. What it doesn't have is a dependence on playing good lands.

I don't see how gggggg every game turn 3 has gotten worse? Rofellos makes that with every draw. It's not less consistent. It is the definition of consistent. That is the default of Rofellos is that he's archenemy.

This thread seems more and more about how you think other cards are banworthy.

T3 gggggg on just land drops and your commander is just not an acceptable floor to have each and every game. Why would you unban that? It's just to send a message about other cards?

[pokken]

Why would you unban that? It's just to send a message about other cards?

Personally? I think mono-colored decks have gotten a lot worse over the years and I have no objection to an additional cool mono-green commander that plays a much different game than other decks - it isn't really incentivized to play the special lands and it isn't incentivized to play mana dorks.

I do not think all levels of Rofellos would play the combo pieces; why would you? You can't tutor for them and they're boring. Lots of people avoid combos.

Making 6 mana on turn 3 or 4 is how the game is now, I don't find it all that exceptional. I don't see what is so special about 6 mana on turn 3 and then having to trust the randomness gods to get a way to refuel vs. making 6 mana on turn 3 with your ramp spells and then refueling with your commander which is what most decks do.

This thread seems more and more about how you think other cards are banworthy.

I think it's more that the ban criteria for commanders seems to have shifted. I would prefer it that Kinnan gets banned too but if he isn't then the banning criteria for Rofellos makes no sense anymore.

No other card on the banlist shares basically anything in common with Rof. No other commander is banned for mana production and MANY commanders exist who produce more mana than Rofellos.

[RxPhantom]

Making 6 mana on turn 3 or 4 is how the game is now, I don't find it all that exceptional. I don't see what is so special about 6 mana on turn 3 and then having to trust the randomness gods to get a way to refuel vs. making 6 mana on turn 3 with your ramp spells and then refueling with your commander which is what most decks do.

Making 6 mana on turn 3 typically takes a lucky draw and other cards. Rofellos just asks that you make land drops. He does all of the work, which means there's not much refueling to do.

I think it's more that the ban criteria for commanders seems to have shifted. I would prefer it that Kinnan gets banned too but if he isn't then the banning criteria for Rofellos makes no sense anymore.

No other card on the banlist shares basically anything in common with Rof. No other commander is banned for mana production and MANY commanders exist who produce more mana than Rofellos.

I think the bolded sentence proves the subsequent one untrue. Yes, Kinnan is also busted, but requires an additional color and stricter deck building requirements. Also, the nature of the format itself prevents the ban list from actually containing every problematic card but I know you know that.

My overall point is that Rofellos asks nothing of its builder and grants a level of consistency of speed that outpaces almost everything else in the format. Kinnan requires at least a modicum of deckbuilding effort.

On a potentially related note, if WotC designs all of these legends for Commander and the RC bans 1-2 per set, WotC won't take kindly, nor will they sit by idly. /tinfoilhat

[Dunharrow]

The answer is simple
return 'Banned as commander'
Put Rofellos banned as commander.
And Kinnan and Golos
And Braids, Cabal Minion so I can finally play Braids again. Because that's all I care about <3.

[pokken]

While there is luck involved in drawing ramp, there's also luck involved in pulling the right stuff. Firstly it takes luck to draw three forests - you're going to need to run close to 45 to be 90% likely to draw 3 in 10 cards. Running 30 or so you're going to miss one a lot.

Secondly the stuff you draw is random. Your deck is going to have to be made up of various things that are not all ways to draw cards. The challenge with building a commander who only ramps and only does so while he's on the field is you have to ramp a bunch still because if he dies twice and you haven't ramped your game is over.

So a rofellos deck will be made of ramp, interaction, tutors, draw and threats just like any deck, but will short ramp a bit to play more lands and other cards. Kind of similar to azusa really.

There is an inherent inconsistency there. Ask anyone who's played an animar deck. Because so much of the deck has to be built to ramp it's really easy to get stranded.

Re: kinnan

Yes, Kinnan is also busted, but requires an additional color and stricter deck building requirements. Also, the nature of the format itself prevents the ban list from actually containing every problematic card but I know you know that.

Deckbuilding requirements of play Mana rocks or dorks is not a real limitation.

Adding blue is a huge power level increase not a restriction.. hard disagree there. Imagine if Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary was simic and worked with forests or islands. Basically a strict upgrade.

[umtiger]

Personally? I think mono-colored decks have gotten a lot worse over the years and I have no objection to an additional cool mono-green commander that plays a much different game than other decks - it isn't really incentivized to play the special lands and it isn't incentivized to play mana dorks.

I do not think all levels of Rofellos would play the combo pieces; why would you? You can't tutor for them and they're boring. Lots of people avoid combos.

Making 6 mana on turn 3 or 4 is how the game is now, I don't find it all that exceptional. I don't see what is so special about 6 mana on turn 3 and then having to trust the randomness gods to get a way to refuel vs. making 6 mana on turn 3 with your ramp spells and then refueling with your commander which is what most decks do.

No other card on the banlist shares basically anything in common with Rof. No other commander is banned for mana production and MANY commanders exist who produce more mana than Rofellos.

Rofellos does not "play a different game" just because it uses more basic forest. If all I cared about was winning, I'd be more concerned if my opponent had a legit reason for playing without a certain staple. That person probably knows how to actually build a deck and likely is more thoughtful plus has higher play skill. Lol. Rofellos isn't less scary for eschewing staples like you insist. Rather, he's moreso.

Okay, let's say that Rofellos doesn't always run staff of domination or the other staples. But then you should apply the same logic towards the other cards you are bringing up. Selvala doesn't have to have Dreadnaught+Sabertooth. Azusa doesn't have to to have Eldrazi.

But that's the thing, you don't need any staples or infinite anything with Rofellos.

Having 6 mana on turn 3 to use means Sol Ring plus. Which isn't a default start that I play against. Anyone who is lucky enough to start a game that way is archenemy. However, since you seem to have such a problem with that, why are an advocate for Rofellos? He's better than a Sol Ring start and in your command zone.

No other commander makes as much mana as Rofellos with literal nothing. To Rofellos is unique. Yeah, his floor is the highest. Did you make a self aware wolves comment without realizing it?

The answer is simple
return 'Banned as commander'
Put Rofellos banned as commander.
And Kinnan and Golos
And Braids, Cabal Minion so I can finally play Braids again. Because that's all I care about <3.

Can we all just give this a hell yeah!!!

[pokken]

Rofellos does not "play a different game" just because it uses more basic forest. If all I cared about was winning, I'd be more concerned if my opponent had a legit reason for playing without a certain staple. That person probably knows how to actually build a deck and likely is more thoughtful plus has higher play skill. Lol. Rofellos isn't less scary for eschewing staples like you insist. Rather, he's moreso.

I think you're possibly wrongly conflating interesting and weak. Rofellos is very strong, but his deck design is also interesting - he doesn't want to run as many ramp spells as most green decks, really doesn't care that much about land tutoring, plays fewer value lands, and will not really want to play a lot of mana dorks. He's kind of like in between Ezuri, Renegade Leader and Azusa, Lost but Seeking. Higher risk than Azusa, less risk than Ezuri, more resilient than Ezuri but less than Azusa. More consistent than Azusa but less than Ezuri (who has a wincon in the command zone vs. a ramp spell, and turns ramp spells into threats).

There are so many really strong commanders in EDH. There is no rule that says a commander who is too powerful or consistent has to be banned. See Zur the Enchanter who is far more consistent overall, and Animar, Soul of Elements who consistently ramps harder (not to mention Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy of course, who we've already covered consistently out-ramps Rofellos with even a bare minimum of deck construction).

I don't love Zur, and I don't love Animar, but why is Rofellos different? Because it's mana production on turn 3 and not on turn 4? It just seems arbitrary to me.

Golos, Tireless Pilgrim is a superbly powerful card that is problematic. Butttt, it's also really interesting! I've built 6 different Golos decks. He's overpowered but that doesn't mean he isn't cool as hell to build around.

Again if you look at all the commanders who are banned, absolutely none of them are problematic purely from a power level perspective or a consistency perspective. There is simply no reason for Rof to be banned with the huge crop of commanders who are allowed to be policed by the social contract.

[umtiger]

I'm not conflating anything with anything else.

Rofellos is just not "interesting." Like what are you going to do, make a monogreen deck that ramps? Oh, you're deck is interesting because you use more basic forests?

What exactly is anyone missing out on from this ban? I like playing with cool cards too and I'd rather play a Rofellos deck than a Selvala because I've been playing a long time.

Golos is not interesting either. If you have an artifact Primeval Titan general, you can win with jank. Good job, you just proved nothing. Prime time is banned for a reason. And if you care about things besides winning, you can also just choose to helm those jank decks with another commander. You will still have fun but just win less. Keep making interesting decks. You don't need to have Golos to do so unless you care more about winning than anything.

Why did I type a paragraph about Golos here? Is it because this thread is not really about Rofellos?

Look, I agree with you on somethings. I think interesting games are important more than "balanced" games. Sol Ring should stay legal forever because ramp makes games more fun than 7 drops only happening on turn 7. But you haven't made compelling arguments for allowing him as a general.

Why did I type a paragraph about Sol Ring staying legal? Is it because this thread is not really about Rofellos? I also don't like the new cards like Kinnan and Golos. I also don't like the cmdr set legendaries.

[pokken]

I'm not conflating anything with anything else.

Rofellos is just not "interesting." Like what are you going to do, make a monogreen deck that ramps? Oh, you're deck is interesting because you use more basic forests?

What exactly is anyone missing out on from this ban? I like playing with cool cards too and I'd rather play a Rofellos deck than a Selvala because I've been playing a long time.

Golos is not interesting either. If you have an artifact Primeval Titan general, you can win with jank. Good job, you just proved nothing. Prime time is banned for a reason. And if you care about things besides winning, you can also just choose to helm those jank decks with another commander. You will still have fun but just win less. Keep making interesting decks. You don't need to have Golos to do so unless you care more about winning than anything.

Why did I type a paragraph about Golos here? Is it because this thread is not really about Rofellos?

Look, I agree with you on somethings. I think interesting games are important more than "balanced" games. Sol Ring should stay legal forever because ramp makes games more fun than 7 drops only happening on turn 7. But you haven't made compelling arguments for allowing him as a general.

Why did I type a paragraph about Sol Ring staying legal? Is it because this thread is not really about Rofellos? I also don't like the new cards like Kinnan and Golos. I also don't like the cmdr set legendaries.

I disagree with you on what's interesting I guess, that's fine. I don't think either one of us is the arbiter but Golos has clearly interested a huge percentage of the community.

The thread is about how rofellos is less objectionable than a ton of legal generals. Hence, comparison to other generals. We understand things through their relationships to other things. Analogies, metaphors, etc.

[umtiger]

It'd be interesting to see a Black Lotus in person because I have never seen one before. I'm sure a lot of people would actually share that interest, but that type of interest isn't worth unbanning. "Interest" means too many different things.

But I don't see how the deck building restriction of having more basic forests moves any needle. It's not really a particularly "interesting" restriction for a deck builder to face. Would it be a challenge for you or anyone? Oh, you have to set your proxy cradle aside but you can proxy this elf guy instead who makes gggggg on t3 instead.

I think many people play Golos to win, not to be interesting. You have even said that facing those many Golos decks isn't particularly fun or dare I say "interesting."

Rofellos being essentially gggggg on turn 3 is why he's banned. There is nothing else that needs to be said, no point in bringing up any other card.

If you want to make the case for other stuff to be banned, fine. But nothing else being "better" that you have brought up is a case for unban. I mean Demonic Consult + Oracle is pretty good and legal. Does that mean anything not blue plus black should be unbanned?

[pokken]

I think the deck construction styles of rof and golos are both very cool. They both tickle my deckbuilding fancy something fierce. The fact that they don't necessarily create great games is something else entirely. I find zur fairly neat from a design perspective.

I don't agree with your reasoning at all obviously. Tons of worse stuff being legal is literally the reason staff of domination was unbanned. Plenty of precedent.

But I don't see how the deck building restriction of having more basic forests moves any needle. It's not really a particularly "interesting" restriction for a deck builder to face.

Wanted to expand on this a little. So, what's unique about Rofellos?

* He doesn't want to play a lot of non-forest lands (this is super unusual, VERY few legends care about basic land types at all). You can feasibly play him with straight up 35-38 forests and no non-basics other than maybe fetches and there's good reason to do that.

* He's a commander who just ramps. This is pretty unusual. Most commanders who ramp also do something else as a signpost. Rishkar, Peema Renegade is probably the closest analogue, but he rewards a +1/+1 counter theme and wants lots of cheaper creatures. Very different.

-- Just ramping has a lot of deckbuilding consequences. You need to figure out a variety of ways to draw cards, and there are a ton of valid approaches; you can play a Glimpse of Nature type stormy approach with one-shot untap effects, you can play mass untap things like Awakening and Seedborn Muse, you can play really weird niche card draw effects too if you want to get creative, and count on Rof's huge mana to fuel it.

-- Just ramping from the zone also lets you do something very few commander decks can do which is not play very much ramp at all; you probably want to play all the Cultivate effects as card advantage spells since 3 mana to draw 2 cards is a great rate in green. this means your deck can be really different in construction.

* He's one of the few green commanders who does not properly want mana dorks. There're a few quirky guys in this vein like Goreclaw, Terror of Qal Sisma who can play a low-dork deck but Gore-claw's mana cost means you probably have to play dorks, whereas Rof's combination of low mana cost and ramp means you can play zero mana dorks in your deck if you want.

Now, that stuff may not be to everyone's tastes, but it's really hard to argue that any other mono-green in EDH would have a deck that looks like Rofellos. Looking back at the decks that existed historically you'll see this is pretty true. All kinds of non-traditional fatties and control cards can fit in his deck.

[onering]

I think the deck construction styles of rof and golos are both very cool. They both tickle my deckbuilding fancy something fierce. The fact that they don't necessarily create great games is something else entirely. I find zur fairly neat from a design perspective.

I don't agree with your reasoning at all obviously. Tons of worse stuff being legal is literally the reason staff of domination was unbanned. Plenty of precedent.

But I don't see how the deck building restriction of having more basic forests moves any needle. It's not really a particularly "interesting" restriction for a deck builder to face.

Wanted to expand on this a little. So, what's unique about Rofellos?

* He doesn't want to play a lot of non-forest lands (this is super unusual, VERY few legends care about basic land types at all). You can feasibly play him with straight up 35-38 forests and no non-basics other than maybe fetches and there's good reason to do that.

* He's a commander who just ramps. This is pretty unusual. Most commanders who ramp also do something else as a signpost. Rishkar, Peema Renegade is probably the closest analogue, but he rewards a +1/+1 counter theme and wants lots of cheaper creatures. Very different.

-- Just ramping has a lot of deckbuilding consequences. You need to figure out a variety of ways to draw cards, and there are a ton of valid approaches; you can play a Glimpse of Nature type stormy approach with one-shot untap effects, you can play mass untap things like Awakening and Seedborn Muse, you can play really weird niche card draw effects too if you want to get creative, and count on Rof's huge mana to fuel it.

-- Just ramping from the zone also lets you do something very few commander decks can do which is not play very much ramp at all; you probably want to play all the Cultivate effects as card advantage spells since 3 mana to draw 2 cards is a great rate in green. this means your deck can be really different in construction.

* He's one of the few green commanders who does not properly want mana dorks. There're a few quirky guys in this vein like Goreclaw, Terror of Qal Sisma who can play a low-dork deck but Gore-claw's mana cost means you probably have to play dorks, whereas Rof's combination of low mana cost and ramp means you can play zero mana dorks in your deck if you want.

Now, that stuff may not be to everyone's tastes, but it's really hard to argue that any other mono-green in EDH would have a deck that looks like Rofellos. Looking back at the decks that existed historically you'll see this is pretty true. All kinds of non-traditional fatties and control cards can fit in his deck.

All, or at least most, of those things are arguments for keeping Rof banned. Being strong, consistent ramp in the command zone that allows you to safely eschew mana dorks, all but the very best nonbasics, and most ramp cards and focus on draw and threats is a problem. He doesn't need support beyond basic lands and ramp that finds lands. And no, this doesn't exclude Cradle or Nykthos, it just makes their value over a basic in this deck a bit less, but its still enough to run them. A basic forest is GG in Rof when he's online, Cradle and Nykthos will often still be netting more than that so they belong in the deck. Ancient tomb doesn't because it ends up being worse than a forest. That's not a weakness of the deck, its a strength.

So yeah, Rof would be unique compared to other mono green decks, but that doesn't make it interesting. As you persuasively argued, many of green's innate strengths can just be straight up ignored when Rof is your commander, because he covers those bases so well on his own. One of the reasons that most commanders that ramp include some sort of signpost is that those riders create restrictions, and don't let you just play the best stuff you can to take advantage of the ramp, especially focusing on draw. Rof relieves that tension, similar to the way that Kinnan, Golos, and Thrasios do by tying their ramp to built in CA activated abilities.

[pokken]

So yeah, Rof would be unique compared to other mono green decks, but that doesn't make it interesting

To you. Sorry you guys keep saying stuff isn't interesting like because you don't think it's cool or neat or interesting it objectively isn't.

All, or at least most, of those things are arguments for keeping Rof banned

Only one of them is an argument for his banning which is that he creates a lot of mana. The others are just interesting textural elements of his gameplay.

Interestingly, Rof was unbanned at one point and here's what they said when they unbanned and then rebanned:

unban
We think that while strong and possibly have the potential of such terribly anti-social Generals such as Braids, Zur, or Arcum, it also has many social applications. As with any unbanning, we'll keep our eyes peeled, but we seriously doubt that Rofellos will be a format-changing General.

Then they rebanned it along with Staff of Domination

reban
Unbanning Rofellos as a General was a year-long experiment that didn't pan out. We had hoped it would lead to a spate of fun-and-full-of-fat decks, but that wasn't the case.

We've had our eyes on Staff of Domination for a long, long time, and were hoping that someone would find uses for it that didn't include the term 'degenerate.' That hope proved fruitless. Strangely enough, it's the first and cheapest activation that has proved the most troublesome.

So my interpretation of what happened was that there were a ton of Staff of Domination and Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary decks at the time. It was before my time but I remember what my early days were like...people were waaaaay whinier about infinite combos back then.

These days, no one bats a single eye at Staff of Domination combo decks because the format is littered with degenerate combos.

The type of decks that they *wanted* from Rofellos are the type of decks I'm talking about that would be fun as hell. Rofellos windmill slamming fatties.

Ten years on, there is just so much degeneracy in the format that metas have to self-police. If metas can self-police around Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy they can self-police around Rofellos.

I know all you guys keep saying 'well then ban Kinnan' - That is not happening, because the banlist is being managed differently. If it were not, Golos woulda been banned ages ago. There is very little reason to think they are banning commanders for creating positive resource advantages these days, at least from what I can tell.

[BounceBurnBuff]

Honestly, I'm far more concerned about the early turns from a Kinnan deck than Rofellos could ever achieve. Draw in green being power based really limits what that amount of mana can do, let alone lacking an activated ability on the card itself to sink it into. Rofellos lacking scaling with fast mana, or really any benefit from it outside of dropping turn 1, is a pretty big knock against it in the comparison. Kinnan could, scenario permitting, get an activation turn 2-4 if they had nothing else going on. Rofellos lacks that capacity, and as I've found on many occasions, crap tons of mana =/= win compared to less mana, but the ability to get something from it consistently.

However as Pokken has said, the banlist is no longer being handled in the same way. Commanders who generate positive resource disparity are no longer considered for bans, instead locked behind some statement regarding "appropriate power levels and rule 0". Apart from Rofellos and arguably Griselbrand, the banned commander options are all about negative resource disparity. Whilst Griselbrand would be seen far more often as the next easiest way to Ad Naus yourself than a commander in his own right, I don't see Rofellos doing much more than just being another absurd ramp option for mono green and the sort of multi-colour decks with manabases that can support Arbor Elf consistently enough.

[umtiger]

You could have made a thread about how you think the banned list should be managed differently. But this thread is titled about Rofellos.

The topic is about Rofellos and you don't have to compare it to other cards. But it's you're main point. Which is fine, but at that point it's not about Rofellos but instead it's mainly about how you personally feel about other cards.

If you want to make a Rofellos deck, I'd play vs you. I'm sure others would as well. And if anyone makes a stink about it, you can point out they're playing Kinnan and then proceed to lose against them? I don't know. But I do know that you're not missing out on anything other than nostalgia points. If you want to ramp, you have options. And to your point, better ones? I don't find a Rofellos ban to be a quality of life unban.

Staff of Domination is an enabler, half of many two card combos (mainly Rofellos and Metalworker back in the day). I'd argue that staff should have never been banned in the first place. Because what are they going to do, ban half of all two card combos? As you can see, they didn't ban any other halves of any of the popular two card combos from back then. They never touched Palinchron or Altar of Dementia.

I don't really care/mind what reasons they laid out back then for staff, because it was the right unban. Often times, they can do something that is the right choice and then explain it badly. But since the words are online forever, people will pick it apart for the next decade. Does it really matter? Why dwell on something like the wording of a ban/unban to divine how the RC thinks? Fwiw, I think they've done a good job at managing the list. I guess I could make a thread about that.

This continues to drift away from Rofellos.

[pokken]

I don't understand why you keep trying to put up conversational guardrails about how I'm allowed to argue but I think we've exhausted that line of dialog. I believe the things I've brought up relate to rofellos directly, you don't,