[ZNR] Expeditions are back.

[Krishnath]

They can only be found as box toppers or (rarely) in collector boosters.

There are thirty in all, and they are including all the Onslaught and Zendikar fetches. And before you panic and rage, note that the Zendikar (enemy) fetches have been confirmed to be in Modern Horizons 2, coming next year.

More info can be found on the mothership, here.

[Card Slinger J]

Really should've put all the Onslaught and Zendikar Fetches in Commander Legends since it isn't Standard legal. This just confirms that the Fetchlands are never going to be massed produced with few print runs as possible in order to maintain the kind of value collectors look for in Reserve List cards. Fetchlands will NEVER again be affordable to the average player no matter how many times they get reprinted simply because of how iconic they are to MTG.

This is how Wizards of the Coast price gouges specific cards without publicly acknowledging the Secondary Market. It's similar with what they did in Double Masters and other specialty products. They're tampering with class warfare to pander to all the cool kids who can afford these cards where If you're not one of those cool kids then you're left with popular cards that are expected to go down in value and are mass produced.

[Krishnath]

Really should've put all the Onslaught and Zendikar Fetches in Commander Legends since it isn't Standard legal. This just confirms that the Fetchlands are never going to be massed produced with few print runs as possible in order to maintain the kind of value collectors look for in Reserve List cards. Fetchlands will NEVER again be affordable to the average player no matter how many times they get reprinted simply because of how iconic they are to MTG.

This is how Wizards of the Coast price gouges specific cards without publicly acknowledging the Secondary Market. It's similar with what they did in Double Masters and other specialty products. They're tampering with class warfare to pander to all the cool kids who can afford these cards where If you're not one of those cool kids then you're left with popular cards that are expected to go down in value and are mass produced.

You do know that Modern Horizons was printed to demand and MH2 will likely be as well, right?

[Card Slinger J]

Really should've put all the Onslaught and Zendikar Fetches in Commander Legends since it isn't Standard legal. This just confirms that the Fetchlands are never going to be massed produced with few print runs as possible in order to maintain the kind of value collectors look for in Reserve List cards. Fetchlands will NEVER again be affordable to the average player no matter how many times they get reprinted simply because of how iconic they are to MTG.

This is how Wizards of the Coast price gouges specific cards without publicly acknowledging the Secondary Market. It's similar with what they did in Double Masters and other specialty products. They're tampering with class warfare to pander to all the cool kids who can afford these cards where If you're not one of those cool kids then you're left with popular cards that are expected to go down in value and are mass produced.

You do know that Modern Horizons was printed to demand and MH2 will likely be as well, right?

Except that only benefits the Enemy Fetches more than the Allied Fetches. If anything Zendikar Rising Expedition cards really should've been printed to demand as much as Modern Horizons and Modern Horizons 2.

[Krishnath]

Really should've put all the Onslaught and Zendikar Fetches in Commander Legends since it isn't Standard legal. This just confirms that the Fetchlands are never going to be massed produced with few print runs as possible in order to maintain the kind of value collectors look for in Reserve List cards. Fetchlands will NEVER again be affordable to the average player no matter how many times they get reprinted simply because of how iconic they are to MTG.

This is how Wizards of the Coast price gouges specific cards without publicly acknowledging the Secondary Market. It's similar with what they did in Double Masters and other specialty products. They're tampering with class warfare to pander to all the cool kids who can afford these cards where If you're not one of those cool kids then you're left with popular cards that are expected to go down in value and are mass produced.

You do know that Modern Horizons was printed to demand and MH2 will likely be as well, right?

Except that only benefits the Enemy Fetches more than the Allied Fetches. If anything Zendikar Rising Expedition cards really should've been printed to demand as much as Modern Horizons and Modern Horizons 2.

Oh, I agree with that. Personally I am not really that invested in the fetches because I already have all ten (and like five of Marsh Flats).

But I do understand WotC's point of view. The problem is that the fetchlands prevent them from printing interesting and powerful dual lands in standard, they can have either/or in standard, but not both due to balance reasons. And since people get genuinely excited about the duals (and tri-lands), the best they can do is putting them in auxiliary products such as MH2. They can't put them in masters sets because the price would make people, well, angry. For people to accept them, they need to be in an affordable product. Remember, when they unveiled the Secret Lair containing the five, they had to specifically go out of their way to say that they were going to be in a near future booster product to try and dodge the hate that came from it, and people still complained loudly. Now they are here as expeditions, and to again try and head of the hate, they literally had to say "Stay calm, they are expeditions here, but they are coming in an affordable booster product next year, here is what it is called and roughly when it will be released." And even with that, people are still complaining.

I can't speak for anyone but myself (obviously), but I'd rather get interesting dual lands on the regular than get a four year drought of duals just so they can print the fetches in standard, we've been there, it wasn't fun, when all the duals are the common "comes into play tapped" it slows down the game considerably.

[Mookie]

Well, I guess this is the fetchland reprint we're getting for the year. Unfortunately, it's unlikely to affect the price in any way whatsoever. Will presumably do the job of the original Expeditions and decrease the price of the set, I suppose.

MH2 reprint is.... better than nothing, but still unlikely to bring prices down to something actually reasonable. And the existence of MH2 in general is mildly concerning, given how much power creep the last one brought. Meh.

...on the brighter side, at least the expeditions are super pretty.

[Card Slinger J]

Oh, I agree with that. Personally I am not really that invested in the fetches because I already have all ten (and like five of Marsh Flats).

But I do understand WotC's point of view. The problem is that the fetchlands prevent them from printing interesting and powerful dual lands in standard, they can have either/or in standard, but not both due to balance reasons. And since people get genuinely excited about the duals (and tri-lands), the best they can do is putting them in auxiliary products such as MH2. They can't put them in masters sets because the price would make people, well, angry. For people to accept them, they need to be in an affordable product. Remember, when they unveiled the Secret Lair containing the five, they had to specifically go out of their way to say that they were going to be in a near future booster product to try and dodge the hate that came from it, and people still complained loudly. Now they are here as expeditions, and to again try and head of the hate, they literally had to say "Stay calm, they are expeditions here, but they are coming in an affordable booster product next year, here is what it is called and roughly when it will be released." And even with that, people are still complaining.

I can't speak for anyone but myself (obviously), but I'd rather get interesting dual lands on the regular than get a four year drought of duals just so they can print the fetches in standard, we've been there, it wasn't fun, when all the duals are the common "comes into play tapped" it slows down the game considerably.

Well gee here's a thought, why won't Wizards of the Coast finish up on the land cycles they left behind like the Horizon lands in Modern Horizons, Panorama's from Shards of Alara block, the Bicycle lands from Amonkhet, the Odyssey Filter lands, the Reveal lands from Innistrad, or even the Battle lands from Battle for Zendikar? If they had the balls to finish the Talisman cycle in Modern Horizons then they can at least finish these land cycles as well. Why not print Triomes for the Shard colors since we got Wedge colored ones in Ikoria?

Unfortunately, it's unlikely to affect the price in any way whatsoever.

That's the whole point. They know collectors will eat this up which is why they refuse to make the Fetches more accessible and affordable to players. They're basically being treated as pseudo-ABU Duals at this point but not as insanely expensive.

[Krishnath]

Well gee here's a thought, why won't Wizards of the Coast finish up on the land cycles they left behind like the Horizon lands in Modern Horizons, Panorama's from Shards of Alara block, the Bicycle lands from Amonkhet, the Odyssey Filter lands, the Reveal lands from Innistrad, or even the Battle lands from Battle for Zendikar? If they had the balls to finish the Talisman cycle in Modern Horizons then they can at least finish these land cycles as well. Why not print Triomes for the Shard colors since we got Wedge colored ones in Ikoria?

I agree they should finish the cycles, heck I am still waiting for the Tempest painlands and Mirage fetches speaking of cycles that need to get finished. However, some of them, like the bicycle lands need specific mechanics to be printed, cycling in this case to be specific, so it's probably take a while. I was personally hoping the bicycle land cycle would have been finished in Ikoria, but the tri-lands are quite nice as well for my purposes (I.e. Commander).

[SecretInfiltrator]

Well gee here's a thought, why won't Wizards of the Coast finish up on the land cycles they left behind like the Horizon lands in Modern Horizons, Panorama's from Shards of Alara block, the Bicycle lands from Amonkhet, the Odyssey Filter lands, the Reveal lands from Innistrad, or even the Battle lands from Battle for Zendikar? If they had the balls to finish the Talisman cycle in Modern Horizons then they can at least finish these land cycles as well. Why not print Triomes for the Shard colors since we got Wedge colored ones in Ikoria?

While I agree with a lot of criticism of WotC there are some things, where I see heir side and "finishing cycles" is such a point. They made an effort to immediately finish up cycles e. g. with Temples/Scrylands in Theros when there were still blocks and they could easily spread out the cycle. With the current system of sets that often stand alone you don't get to make ten-card cycles on a whim.

So they have to make the call: Return a cycle (which is often something players demand), finish a cycle (which is often something players demand), or make a new cycle (which often is an issue of making the cycle that this particular set can make or not getting to make them for a while e. g. Lorwyn tribal lands were a now-or-never situation, tri-lands belong into the correct three-colored environment).

Even if you have an environment to finish a cycle there is another aspect: For some design reason the cycle is outdated. Slow-fetches and slow-painlands etc.

I barely ever see a land cycle recently where I really think they should have passed this one over to complete another cycle. And even then every now and then play design might just have made a call against a certain cycle for greater Standard concerns. We get to read about these stories all the time, too.

I see cycles completed (or for futuresight singletons expanded) left and right recently anyway through their plenty nonpremium product. So once you take a step back and actually go through your list and make an effort to think about where they should have put that cycle in your opinion (and what they should have cut for it!) you'll arrive at quite few missed opportunities.

If anything they are obviously aware of the desire to see ten-fold cycles as recent trends show as they do more to not leave cycles incomplete (as hinted by MaRo the six cards of ZNR will apprently not leave a hole of four for long). It's not been a month since this forum praised the announced completion of the Battlebond "crowd land" cycle. So cycles obviously do get completed.

Since this is about ZNR then, let's look at the one relevant question: Should they have returned any of your desired cycles over the DFC duals? Knowing that DFC spell lands (combined spell-land slots) at lower rarities already make for a good argument to return DFC technology in this set, should they have missed out on the opportunity to use modal DFC technology to make a land cycle here to complete a cycle mentioned above? We can even ignore the weird pattern of mixing ally and enemy colors since that's probably something that can be worked around (but who knows yet?).

I still think ZNR is handled correctly (though I have some reservations about "strictly better than basic land" nonbasics, but that's an entirely different discussion).

[Krishnath]

I still think ZNR is handled correctly (though I have some reservations about "strictly better than basic land" nonbasics, but that's an entirely different discussion).

Honestly, I think the DFC lands are strictly worse than the Rootbound Crag-esque lands, because you get to chose one or the other. That said, I still think they are really cool, and I think they will find a home in at least Commander. Those with land on one side and a spell on the other will without a doubt see play in Vintage/Legacy (Goblin Charbelcher says hi.)

[motleyslayer]

I was having this discussion with friends tonight. I liked masterpieces in all their forms in regular packs more than in the higher end packs or as box toppers.

Having them in regular packs often means packs are opened much more to get "rarer" cards, thus making everything else cheaper due to higher amounts out there.

Although I guess collector packs weren't available until recently and Khans block had chase rares that weren't rarer

[Krishnath]

I was having this discussion with friends tonight. I liked masterpieces in all their forms in regular packs more than in the higher end packs or as box toppers.

Having them in regular packs often means packs are opened much more to get "rarer" cards, thus making everything else cheaper due to higher amounts out there.

Although I guess collector packs weren't available until recently and Khans block had chase rares that weren't rarer

I just want to point out that it was recently revealed that they literally printed more of each fetchland to use as boxtoppers than there were copies of Force of Will in double masters. I want to say it was in the recent Weekly MTG episode on youtube, but it may have been in a recent Good Morning Magic with Gavin. And they are going to keep printing them for as long as they print Zen Rising.

That said, we *know* that we are getting the enemy fetches in Modern Horizons 2 is the rare slot, so it won't take that long before the secondary market will get literally flooded with more of them, which should press down the price, if the expedition versions won't reduce them already.