Umori, the Collector // Nethroi, Apex of Death - [Companion // Commander Pairing]

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darrenhabib
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Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago


"When the moon hits your eye like a big pizza pie
That's Umori
When the world seems to shine like you've had too much wine
That's Umori"

In my 6th endeavour out with companion builds Umori, the Collector presented quite a unique task. Now creature heavy decks are something that I've leaned towards more and more over the years as I just played out storm like decks many years ago. Fighting with creatures and using them for value fits more inline with the casual scene, which I've been enjoying more and more.

I had already made a deck which I named "Kenrith's Battle Royale - The Ultimate Tournament for Monster Clashes".
It only had 7 non-creature spells, so I'm no stranger to building almost all creature decks.
At first I thought I'd just use Umori, the Collector for this particular deck and just replace the 7 non-creatures spells.
However I wanted to create something different.

I then made a Sliver tribal theme deck with Umori, the Collector as the companion. The idea was that I've been playing Kaheera, the Orphanguard along with Morophon, the Boundless as Beast tribal mainly for the mutate creatures in Ikoria and I've been really enjoying the mechanic.
I thought that a deck that has both the colorless (Umori) and colored part (Morophon) for casting spells would be a cool theme. But honestly after playing it a few times it didn't feel that good to play.

I also looked at Kethis, the Hidden Hand for the double up on cost reduction, and really started brewing. Once I had started into the fueling graveyard strategy I sort of wasn't quite inspired enough on the whole cost reduction of 2 with Umori and Kethis.

So in the end I decided that I can't get enough of playing the mutate mechanic at the moment and I wanted Umori to help with the cost reduction there.
After already brewing with Kethis I thought that Nethroi, Apex of Death with the graveyard reanimation and mutate would be fun to brew around.
So without a doubt this companion took me the longest and several attempts to find the right home. But I'm glad I didn't settle and persevered until I got what is a lot of fun to play.

Advantages of creature heavy deck with Nethroi
But the end result is actually much better than I thought it would be. The thing is that Nethroi, Apex of Death ability is really powerful. I mean you read it and it seems like it would be good, but you don't know if its just excessive for the cost?
Where it shines is that most creature heavy decks have a hard time with board wipes. In fact often they just result in a complete blowout.
In the past I've tried to use things like Selfless Spirit and Gaddock Teeg to stave off the inevitable creature wipe that comes once you've committed most of your hand. However these are only a few cards and you are not always lucky to have access to them.
Where Nethroi, Apex of Death presence is felt is that you can bounce back immediately from your creatures dying.
Actually its so good that I ended up adding my own wrath effects for creatures, as you can get the big tempo play back by mutating Nethroi to get your creatures back.
So I have Magus of the Disk, Mageta the Lion and Realm-Cloaked Giant as creatures that can do board wipes.

Another major advantage of playing an all creature deck is that opponents often spend/hold resources on removal for the other card types. Completely avoiding them feels really good to your tempo.
If an opponent spend a card on removing another opponents artifact or enchantment, then for your personally that is a 2-for-0. That's two permanents removed for your zero cards.
To back this up there is mass artifact and enchantment removal in the form of Kalemne's Captain and Bane of Progress.
Being completely unaffected by them is a massive game swing in resources. Game winning really.
Of note Bane of Progress only has 2 power, so is an easy target for Nethroi bringing back 10 powers worth of creatures.

There is even more removal with Caustic Caterpillar, Qasali Pridemage as creatures you can sacrifice, which is good if you are wanting to get extra value out of them by using Nethroi, Necropanther or Boneyard Lurker to get them back.

Mutate
There are 13 mutate creatures in the deck, so you can get Nethroi trigger multiple times if the game lines up that way.
But that's not really the main goal of the deck, your plan is to have access to mutating some of the other value creatures.

Necropanther and Boneyard Lurker act as further ways to use your graveyard as a resource.

Great value can be had from Gemrazer, Chittering Harvester, Cavern Whisperer, Dirge Bat, Auspicious Starrix, Sawtusk Demolisher.

There are some hexproof creatures which are by far the best creatures to mutate onto, so that opponents struggle to target the subject of your mutates.
Silhana Ledgewalker, Fleecemane Lion, Sigarda, Host of Herons, Paradise Druid, Sylvan Caryatid.

This is backup with even further protection with Mother of Runes, Giver of Runes, Sylvan Safekeeper, Shalai, Voice of Plenty
Selfless Spirit guards against board wipes, and in fact a play that I will use if I can line it up is to use before I use my own Magus of the Disk or Realm-Cloaked Giant.

Ramp
There is a lot of ramp and mana in the deck so that you can cast all your creatures in a timely manner. Mutate are often midrange to higher cast in general, so Umori doesn't help with this but you want to get setup with mana first.

Graveyard as a resource
There are a couple of sacrifice creature outlets with Viscera Seer and Yawgmoth, Thran Physician. These are nice to have as sometimes to get value from Nethroi you purposefully sacrifice creatures to get additional value from them coming into play.
For example sacrificing land ramp creatures to get the additional ramp is good.

Putting cards into your graveyard is a really nice strategy if it comes to you. But where at first I thought it was a must, actually just playing out creatures and them getting naturally killed, via opponents removal and blocking, does mean that you can always look to get value from Nethroi.
So unlike a lot of graveyard as a strategy decks, although Nethroi actually represents in my opinion the most powerful commander ever for this, you actually don't need to lean on it that hard.

But if you get you can line it up, it is really great. Hermit Druid and Doom Whisperer are ways to get lots of cards into your graveyard potentially.
Note that there are 8 basics in the deck with Hermit Druid, so its not like a combo mill your entire deck type thing, its purely for value milling and getting your land drops.
There is also some dredge creatures with Golgari Thug and Stinkweed Imp. I decided against Golgari Grave-Troll because its just expensive to cast, and there isn't a lot of discard in the deck, so getting reuse out of dredging it once isn't that appealing.
At least with Golgari Thug and Stinkweed Imp you can just cast them easily and threaten to block with them.

Creatures all day long
Because it's an all creature deck there are some hate-bear type creatures that make sense with Collector Ouphe, Gaddock Teeg, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Kataki, War's Wage, Aven Mindcensor, Archon of Valor's Reach.
What Archon of Valor's Reach needs to be accessed by the game obviously. If you are up against blue opponents then "instant" is probably the best call. Often in the dark I'll name "sorcery" as that is the most powerful spells in general. The deck is pretty well equipped to deal with artifacts and enchantments, so unless opponents seem to be heavily relying on those, most of the time its "sorcery".

The deck is rounded out with creatures that can search your library for other creature cards and good draw effects to keep up the proactive game plan.

Vizier of the Menagerie hits literally every spell in the deck, and combine these with others that play lands off the top of your library and you get massive turns.

I've been playing this deck a ton and honestly its been really fun. Perfect mix for battlecruiser commander.



Umori, the Collector // Nethroi, Apex of Death

Commander

Companion

Additional Lands/Top Library

Sacrifice or Discard

Approximate Total Cost:

Last edited by darrenhabib 4 years ago, edited 5 times in total.

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Artaud
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Post by Artaud » 4 years ago

I like this deck very much, I even purchased Nethroi on release to have something to ponder about. I like the approach of using hatebears and I would focus more on this at the cost of reducing quantity of other options.

First I would get rid of weakest mutate creatures. The thing is you cast Nethroi when your board was wiped out and you need to recover or when you have specific cards you like to reanimate. When you do, repeated mutation won't do much more, it's risky and you reanimate most needed (at the moment) creatures anyway. I see you use some dredgers and Hermit to fill your graveyard but they are few with no tools to discard them (dredgers).

Second I would get rid of some off-theme creatures like God-Eternal Oketra or Karametra, God of Harvests. You reanimate things, not cast them repeatedly so while they are powerful they do not much for a game plan (and are not prime targets for limited tutors you have).

Third I would add more mana dorks / land searchers and more hatebears. Especially the latter. This could make for a valid game plan - you stall a board while looking for wincons and when your opps whipe it, Nethroi brings the hate back. The other option would be using some creature-based combos like unfamous Mike-Trike one to dump them into gy and reanimate with Nethroi. More dredge creatures could help with that.

Fourth you need manlands. You cannot mutate Netroi when your board is empty and there Inkmoth Nexus and company come in handy. You may even kill with Infect ;)

O course I may be very wrong as I never played Nethroi yet. In this case don't mind me ;) Keep brewing, you do a great job :)

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Post by Sinis » 4 years ago

A bold choice! I was also considering an Umori + Abzan general deck that would use ETBs and Adventurers to shore up the all-creatures game it played. Nethroi seems like a logical choice given it can just rez whole teams.

I agree that the poorer mutates are probably not worth running. Nethroi is the big draw, and I don't see Cubwarden or especially Majestic Auricorn adding much.

I also think Giver of Runes > Mother of Runes, because you can mutate onto Giver. Hope of Ghirapur seems like it might be helpful, and I might also consider Ranger of Eos and Ranger-Captain of Eos if you ended up with a particular toolbox of 1-drops.

Finally, Beanstalk Giant is totally acceptable ramp, IMO.

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Outcryqq
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Post by Outcryqq » 4 years ago

Have you considered Pack Rat? If he is your base for mutate, you can keep copying your mutation, and gives you a discard outlet too which can help set up your powerful nethroi triggers.

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Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

Artaud wrote:
4 years ago
I like this deck very much, I even purchased Nethroi on release to have something to ponder about. I like the approach of using hatebears and I would focus more on this at the cost of reducing quantity of other options.

First I would get rid of weakest mutate creatures. The thing is you cast Nethroi when your board was wiped out and you need to recover or when you have specific cards you like to reanimate. When you do, repeated mutation won't do much more, it's risky and you reanimate most needed (at the moment) creatures anyway. I see you use some dredgers and Hermit to fill your graveyard but they are few with no tools to discard them (dredgers).

Second I would get rid of some off-theme creatures like God-Eternal Oketra or Karametra, God of Harvests. You reanimate things, not cast them repeatedly so while they are powerful they do not much for a game plan (and are not prime targets for limited tutors you have).

Third I would add more mana dorks / land searchers and more hatebears. Especially the latter. This could make for a valid game plan - you stall a board while looking for wincons and when your opps whipe it, Nethroi brings the hate back. The other option would be using some creature-based combos like unfamous Mike-Trike one to dump them into gy and reanimate with Nethroi. More dredge creatures could help with that.

Fourth you need manlands. You cannot mutate Netroi when your board is empty and there Inkmoth Nexus and company come in handy. You may even kill with Infect ;)

O course I may be very wrong as I never played Nethroi yet. In this case don't mind me ;) Keep brewing, you do a great job :)
I didn't include Golgari Grave-Troll as there are only 3 discard outlets in Fauna Shaman, Yawgmoth, Thran Physician, Mageta the Lion. Originally I was also looking at Skirge Familiar and Liliana, Heretical Healer (flip side discard ability) as ways to put dredgers back into graveyard. However they just seem too narrow, so the idea is that you just hard cast the Golgari Thug and Stinkweed Imp and have them die naturally.
But through playing the deck, honestly I often don't dredge them even when they hit the graveyard as a lot of games come down to the creatures you play are often the subject of removal, so you often have targets for Nethroi anyway. My point is that its easy to get carried away thinking you need to focus the deck on stocking the graveyard via your library, but actually through interactive games, you have targets already.
However I have played games where opponents play no removal and a stocked graveyard would have given me a great play casting Netroi.
So I'm going to add Skull Prophet, Nyx Weaver, Underrealm Lich, Cavalier of Thorns.
The indestructible on Underrealm Lich could be a bonus of mutate targets.

I'm pretty happy with the mana situation, but Skull Prophet will do double duty and not having Deathrite Shaman was purely an over site.

As far as hate-bears I'll add Kataki, War's Wage but after that I'm not really keen on others. Anything you had in mind?

I like to play the deck casually so no infinite's.
At the end of the day this is a deck restricted by Umori, the Collector, so a Nethroi build that you wanted to focus around winning more would have cards like Buried Alive and Survival of the Fittest to have some sort of instant win.
So without these types of cards Mike+Trike are actually not that great to draw.

I did actually cut Inkmoth Nexus in the end. The thing is that at first I though it would be great to hide the mutate under them, but the reality is that they are just as exposed to removal as opponents just seem to find a way to target it. Then you are also a land down.
I mean the entire deck is creatures so I'm never short of targets for the mutates and of course the hexproof ones are what you really want.
Now I didn't have Magus of the Disk, Mageta the Lion, Realm-Cloaked Giant when I cut Inkmoth Nexus. Having the mutates tucked under it and then using my own removal to wipe the board is something I should consider.
I had added Dryad Arbor as it is fetchable, but it more susceptible to my own removal, so I should just switch back to Inkmoth Nexus.
Sinis wrote:
4 years ago
A bold choice! I was also considering an Umori + Abzan general deck that would use ETBs and Adventurers to shore up the all-creatures game it played. Nethroi seems like a logical choice given it can just rez whole teams.

I agree that the poorer mutates are probably not worth running. Nethroi is the big draw, and I don't see Cubwarden or especially Majestic Auricorn adding much.

I also think Giver of Runes > Mother of Runes, because you can mutate onto Giver. Hope of Ghirapur seems like it might be helpful, and I might also consider Ranger of Eos and Ranger-Captain of Eos if you ended up with a particular toolbox of 1-drops.

Finally, Beanstalk Giant is totally acceptable ramp, IMO.
I honestly can't see myself putting a mutate creature on Giver of Runes as it can't protect itself and protection is all about saving the mutated creature.
But I could see running Giver of Runes as just an additional protection creature. There have been quite a few times I've had Shalai, Voice of Plenty in play and just so desperately wanted a way to protect her as well for the full untargetable army.

I have played Hope of Ghirapur in quite a few decks, but its one of those cards that you really need constant reanimation otherwise firing it off doesn't do a whole lot as a one shot. Nethroi is more like a one shot.

I don't have that many 1 drops but the fact that you can sacrifice Ranger-Captain of Eos to get additional value with Nethroi is tempting.

I did cut Farhaven Elf so Beanstalk Giant is pretty similar.
I can see where you would want to do an adventure theme, but I guess the thing is that unless adventures give you something completely unique to what creatures can do anyway, you're not that incentivized into running them.
Its a shame that there is no artifact or enchantment removal in an adventure, because that would help with creature hosers like Humility which this deck literally has no answer for.
I could see Murderous Rider as a way to have instant interaction with opponents as surprise.
Outcryqq wrote:
4 years ago
Have you considered Pack Rat? If he is your base for mutate, you can keep copying your mutation, and gives you a discard outlet too which can help set up your powerful nethroi triggers.
Interesting. I think it would be a slow(ish) game plan, but it is literally an entire game plan if you focused on it. Spending 3 mana does mean you are not casting at least one additional spell each turn. But you could make it your plan to discard a creature that you plan to reanimate with Netroi and do this every turn.
Netroi does have lifelink so getting say 3x Pack Rat does mean you have 9 power of life gain potentially which does add up during those close games.
Then spreading out the mutate creatures also means less potentially for a blowout.
It also cool that Pack Rat doesn't add any power to Nethroi ability so is a freebie if reanimated.
I'll give it a go and specifically try and get a game where I focus on making it my entire game plan and see how that fares.




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Sinis
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Post by Sinis » 4 years ago

darrenhabib wrote:
4 years ago
Its a shame that there is no artifact or enchantment removal in an adventure, because that would help with creature hosers like Humility which this deck literally has no answer for.
While this statement is strictly true, you still have outs for Humility by including Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre, World Breaker and/or Mockery of Nature.

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Post by Artaud » 4 years ago

darrenhabib wrote:
4 years ago
As far as hate-bears I'll add Kataki, War's Wage but after that I'm not really keen on others. Anything you had in mind?
Thalia clones like Glowrider and Vryn Wingmare for starters. Redundancy in such effects is great here as you're completely unaffected by them. Then Thalia, Heretic Cathar for other layer of hate.
Spirit of the Labyrinth may come in handy especially when some of your draw outlets (Yawgmoth, Erebos) allow to sacrifice it, It can backfire sometimes though.
Eidolon of Rhetoric can be of some use as you do not play combo.
Last but not least Hushbringer, Hushwing Gryff and Tocatli Honor Guard completely disable some strategies but they're hard choices anyway. Mutate itself isn't ETB effect (is it?) but in all-creature deck you need some strong ETBs (Bane, Knight of Autumn, Sidisi, Recruiter). It's an option to consider though.

Edit: How about Ulvenwald Hydra and/or Realm Seekers? Finding that Gaea's Cradle is a blowout for creature-only deck and the latter one counts as 0 for Nethroi's reanimation.

Edit 2: How could I forgot about ultimate hoser Drannith Magistrate? Play it as long as it's legal (even if it's Human) ;) There is also Linvala, Keeper of Silence and Plague Engineer to hose opponents' creatures.

Final edit: Well, I might get carried away with amount of "hate" I suggest as it can lead to pretty unfun deck to play against. If stax focus is not your thing then scratch what I wrote but hey - you're limiting yourself by playing creatures-only deck so why not even chances for everybody? ;)

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Post by Segrus » 4 years ago

Wow, it's nice to see that other people are playing around with this combination of commander and companion. I worked on this myself somewhat recently and have enjoyed it a lot too. My current build actually has a lot of similar cards as yours, although is decidedly less consistent since I only built with the cards I happened to have on hand. Unfortunately I haven't gotten to test out the deck as much as I'd like, so I haven't been able to really find out if some of my choices are good ones in the meta I'm likely to be up against.

One card that I have really liked is Lotleth Troll, since it can be used to set up dredge and Nethroi's ability while also being frustrating to get rid of (since you're playing an all creature deck, combat becomes nearly impossible to predict for opponents and the built in regen ability is an easy cost to meet). Not saying you should include it into your build, just saying it's been a standout for me so far.

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Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

Artaud wrote:
4 years ago
darrenhabib wrote:
4 years ago
As far as hate-bears I'll add Kataki, War's Wage but after that I'm not really keen on others. Anything you had in mind?
Thalia clones like Glowrider and Vryn Wingmare for starters. Redundancy in such effects is great here as you're completely unaffected by them. Then Thalia, Heretic Cathar for other layer of hate.
Spirit of the Labyrinth may come in handy especially when some of your draw outlets (Yawgmoth, Erebos) allow to sacrifice it, It can backfire sometimes though.
Eidolon of Rhetoric can be of some use as you do not play combo.
Last but not least Hushbringer, Hushwing Gryff and Tocatli Honor Guard completely disable some strategies but they're hard choices anyway. Mutate itself isn't ETB effect (is it?) but in all-creature deck you need some strong ETBs (Bane, Knight of Autumn, Sidisi, Recruiter). It's an option to consider though.

Edit: How about Ulvenwald Hydra and/or Realm Seekers? Finding that Gaea's Cradle is a blowout for creature-only deck and the latter one counts as 0 for Nethroi's reanimation.

Edit 2: How could I forgot about ultimate hoser Drannith Magistrate? Play it as long as it's legal (even if it's Human) ;) There is also Linvala, Keeper of Silence and Plague Engineer to hose opponents' creatures.

Final edit: Well, I might get carried away with amount of "hate" I suggest as it can lead to pretty unfun deck to play against. If stax focus is not your thing then scratch what I wrote but hey - you're limiting yourself by playing creatures-only deck so why not even chances for everybody? ;)
I mean the thing is that I am big user of hate-bears in general, check out my Chulane, Teller of Tales, Winota, Joiner of Forces, Nikara, Lair Scavenger // Yannik, Scavenging Sentinel decks.
Its just that I'm specifically playing against more casual decks with this particular deck, so its not like I'm competing against top tier storm decks, etc, where the hate-bears could be necessary. But I could squeeze in another couple.

I think Ulvenwald Hydra and/or Realm Seekers are a bit overkill for the Gaea's Cradle as you sort of assume most games you'd have to cast them rather than animate them.
If a build ever went towards Coffers+Urborg then they would shine more, but the deck is more about fixing on Green portions of mana rather than a lot of Black and with Umori you're already fixing the colorless portions enough that its not necessary.

On an unrelated topic, I've added Temur Sabertooth as a way to bounce mutated creatures for additional value.


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Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

Segrus wrote:
4 years ago
Wow, it's nice to see that other people are playing around with this combination of commander and companion. I worked on this myself somewhat recently and have enjoyed it a lot too. My current build actually has a lot of similar cards as yours, although is decidedly less consistent since I only built with the cards I happened to have on hand. Unfortunately I haven't gotten to test out the deck as much as I'd like, so I haven't been able to really find out if some of my choices are good ones in the meta I'm likely to be up against.

One card that I have really liked is Lotleth Troll, since it can be used to set up dredge and Nethroi's ability while also being frustrating to get rid of (since you're playing an all creature deck, combat becomes nearly impossible to predict for opponents and the built in regen ability is an easy cost to meet). Not saying you should include it into your build, just saying it's been a standout for me so far.
Oh we do have a lot of the same cards!

Lotleth Troll I can see being good, but I do actually find myself not having to use the dredge too many times during games.
That is if I dredge once, I often don't want to discard and dredge again, preferring to probably draw a land instead.
I think its not about being greedy and trying to continuously fill your graveyard, because you often get enough creatures in the yard anyway.
I'm stating this because obviously the discard portion of Lotleth Troll is a big factor for you, but I'm quite happy with the way my games have played out just hard casting the Golgari Thug and Stinkweed Imp and having them die during the course of the game instead.

Its a pity that your Mistmeadow Skulk won't be able to be targeted by your mutate creatures as they do target.

There have been a few games where I've lacked graveyard removal as a silver bullet in the deck and Remorseful Cleric I see from your list could fill that role.

I feel like you can lean on Nethroi, Apex of Death ability more than you think, so you can remove a lot of your backup reanimation cards like Undertaker, Eternal Taskmaster, Karador, Ghost Chieftain, Genesis.
The problem with dedicating too many cards to a backup plan just means that you are more susceptible to graveyard hate which is what might slow/stop you down in the first place.

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Post by Segrus » 4 years ago

darrenhabib wrote:
4 years ago
Segrus wrote:
4 years ago
Wow, it's nice to see that other people are playing around with this combination of commander and companion. I worked on this myself somewhat recently and have enjoyed it a lot too. My current build actually has a lot of similar cards as yours, although is decidedly less consistent since I only built with the cards I happened to have on hand. Unfortunately I haven't gotten to test out the deck as much as I'd like, so I haven't been able to really find out if some of my choices are good ones in the meta I'm likely to be up against.

One card that I have really liked is Lotleth Troll, since it can be used to set up dredge and Nethroi's ability while also being frustrating to get rid of (since you're playing an all creature deck, combat becomes nearly impossible to predict for opponents and the built in regen ability is an easy cost to meet). Not saying you should include it into your build, just saying it's been a standout for me so far.
Oh we do have a lot of the same cards!

Lotleth Troll I can see being good, but I do actually find myself not having to use the dredge too many times during games.
That is if I dredge once, I often don't want to discard and dredge again, preferring to probably draw a land instead.
I think its not about being greedy and trying to continuously fill your graveyard, because you often get enough creatures in the yard anyway.
I'm stating this because obviously the discard portion of Lotleth Troll is a big factor for you, but I'm quite happy with the way my games have played out just hard casting the Golgari Thug and Stinkweed Imp and having them die during the course of the game instead.

Its a pity that your Mistmeadow Skulk won't be able to be targeted by your mutate creatures as they do target.

There have been a few games where I've lacked graveyard removal as a silver bullet in the deck and Remorseful Cleric I see from your list could fill that role.

I feel like you can lean on Nethroi, Apex of Death ability more than you think, so you can remove a lot of your backup reanimation cards like Undertaker, Eternal Taskmaster, Karador, Ghost Chieftain, Genesis.
The problem with dedicating too many cards to a backup plan just means that you are more susceptible to graveyard hate which is what might slow/stop you down in the first place.
Ohh shoot, good catch on Mistmeadow Skulk. I think if I'd draw it in a game I probably would have realized my error, but my monkey brain saw the abilities during deckbuilding and went "This is fine." lol

I suppose what I mean with Lotleth Troll is it isn't necessarily just the dredge factor, but really just how well-rounded it is with its abilities. You don't necessarily have to abuse dredge--my list actually only has Stinkweed Imp, with Golgari Thug as a "maybe" card that's not in the deck--but use the Troll to discard a couple creatures right before reanimating them with Nethroi. Since Troll can be targeted by Nethroi, you can put Nethroi on top and the +1/+1 counters increase Nethroi's stats, which helps since Nethroi now has trample + deathtouch. And the Troll's reanimation works with your board wipe plan.

And to explain the reanimation cards, I wanted them in there so I could let Nethroi die and just recast or recur him from the graveyard instead of having to pay additional commander tax. Those cards aren't necessarily to supplement all the other cards in the deck. But you're right, I honestly am fairly vulnerable to graveyard hate. I probably should rearrange stuff and see if I can't work that out a little. Thanks for taking a look at my build.

I wish I had another Temur Sabertooth for this deck. I'll need to order one. I thought I had an additional copy, but alas no. Please let me know how Pack Rat works out for you. I thought about putting it into my build, but wavered on it versus some other cards. Extractor Demon or Splinterfright might be what I pull for it to help out my graveyard problem.

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Post by Artemis132 » 3 years ago

Darrenhabib, do you still play the deck with Umori, the Collector as partner and the restriction of creatures only? Since the rules-change for partners Umori doesnt seem that good anymore...

I am thinking about building Nethroi as an abzan graveyard value-grinding deck with Life from the Loam beeing one of my all-time favourite cards in MtG. I already looked into Tayam, Luminous Enigma and Nikara, Lair Scavenger & Yannik, Scavenging Sentinel, but wasn't pleased with both deck ideas. I really liked the combination of counters and graveyard strategy, but the former goes infinite too easily and the letter pair is just a bit too casual / durdly for my taste.

Since Nethroi goes well with a lot of low-power comes into play with X +1/+1 counters creatures, I wonder if a counter subtheme with Tayam in the 99 and and cards like Yawgmoth, Thran Physician and Shalai, Voice of Plenty could be included.

Already got a lot of inspiration from Outcryqq's list and would like to hear which non creature cards you would consider most synergistic with Nethroi.

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Post by darrenhabib » 3 years ago

Artemis132 wrote:
3 years ago
Darrenhabib, do you still play the deck with Umori, the Collector as partner and the restriction of creatures only? Since the rules-change for partners Umori doesnt seem that good anymore...

I am thinking about building Nethroi as an abzan graveyard value-grinding deck with Life from the Loam beeing one of my all-time favourite cards in MtG. I already looked into Tayam, Luminous Enigma and Nikara, Lair Scavenger & Yannik, Scavenging Sentinel, but wasn't pleased with both deck ideas. I really liked the combination of counters and graveyard strategy, but the former goes infinite too easily and the letter pair is just a bit too casual / durdly for my taste.

Since Nethroi goes well with a lot of low-power comes into play with X +1/+1 counters creatures, I wonder if a counter subtheme with Tayam in the 99 and and cards like Yawgmoth, Thran Physician and Shalai, Voice of Plenty could be included.

Already got a lot of inspiration from Outcryqq's list and would like to hear which non creature cards you would consider most synergistic with Nethroi.
The new rules has made the companions terrible to support, which is a real shame (imo) as they were perfectly balanced for commander given the stipulations already given the singleton nature of having to spread out card ideas.

But this was never the strength of playing the deck anyway, it was between the mutate mechanic being awesome when you get to do its thing and the strength of playing a creature heavy deck.

I'll just make it clear that Nethroi is straight up God power ability. I mean he basically brings your entire graveyard worth of creatures back into play!
So yeah anytime that I've cast him its just glorious. I've written about it in one of the posts above I think, but a really important thing that I found is that you don't have to spend that much of your deck focused on stocking your graveyard. The reason is that either your creatures that you cast remain in play, therefore you are probably outclassing your opponents because literally every spell is a creature.
If opponents do manage to cast a board wipe then Nethroi just puts you straight back into the game, boom one spell and its back to where you were.

To answer your question, now that companions are too much of a liability I will probably will eventually make a Nethroi without Umori and therefore include some number of non-creature spells.
And yes I'm with you I'd include Life from the Loam as another way to fuel the graveyard.
On that note, I'd include Entomb that can actually put Life from the Loam into the graveyard.
Once Loam becomes a big part of your deck plan, I like having some number of cycling lands so that I can use the dredge ability and stay at least at parity with draw.
So Scattered Groves, Indatha Triome, Tranquil Thicket, Secluded Steppe, Barren Moor are all appealing.
Its not a fast grind, you are spending the 1g to cast the Loam, and then whatever for the cycle each turn, so you only have so much left over for actual spells. So I won't sugar coat it as like amazing, but it is a nice engine if you get breathing room in the game.

Buried Alive seems like its a given.
Also Congregation at Dawn could be used and you can Life from the Loam them into your graveyard if wanting to use it more like another Buried Alive.

Survival of the Fittest..sorry if I'm being Cpt Obvious. The dredge creatures become much better when you get to include SotF.

Living Death is a nice backup plan, and you can also use it as like a one sided board wipe at times. Lets just say all players have played their creatures out and graveyards are not stocked yet. You cast it more like a Wrath of God.
But now you have the advantage of casting Nethroi to bring all your creatures back.

I'm afraid the rest of my suggestions are just going to be some usual staples; Sylvan Library, Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Worldly Tutor, Swords to Plowshares, Nature's Claim...I know yawn.
But the top of library tutors are good with dredge if wanting to actually put the creatures into the graveyard.

As far as supporting Tayam, Luminous Enigma getting counters onto creatures isn't the easiest unless you really go hard on the theme if you want to activate it multiple times.
I feel like there would be some core cards I'd include; The Great Henge, Devoted Druid, Incubation Druid, Wall of Roots, Rishkar, Peema Renegade, Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest, Avenger of Zendikar.

I mean you could run Nikara, Lair Scavenger and Yannik, Scavenging Sentinel in your 99, but Yannik is so hard to setup given that its hard to find a creature you want to exile. If you think in terms that you want to create say 6 counters to in theory get 2 x Tayam, Luminous Enigma activation's, then you need a 6 power creature!
Then you have to balance out how often you'd actually get draw off Nikara, Lair Scavenger given the nature of the rest of your deck.
I'm not saying you can't get good value from them, but having played Nikara // Yannik as commanders, they are haaaard to make work even when your whole deck is designed around them.

Black Sun's Zenith is a nice option when dealing with counters theme.

Would cheap reanimation cards also be good like Reanimate, Animate Dead, Dance of the Dead, Necromancy?
Honestly its going to come down to content of the deck.
Nethroi sort of suggests more of a low-power go wide with creatures where as single reanimation cards suggest going over the top with something large.
The example would be say Razaketh, the Foulblooded as one of your best targets.

Let me know if you have major budget requirements for cards you can include and this will sculpt deck ideas a lot, as I've just been throwing out budgetless options which of course isn't that helpful at times.

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Post by Artemis132 » 3 years ago

The abzan deck I want to build is meant to be played in a mixed metagame and should neither be oppressive / cedh nor lowest casual level. In fact I really like decks that have a focused strategy and are optimized towards this, while the strategy itself shouldn't be too powerful. To give you an example: one of my other decks is Greven, Predator Captain and my list is based on yours. Its optimized for what it wants to do, but voltron in itself is limited in power as a strategy.

The creature count should still stay high to make good use of Nethrois mutate ability. Letting boardwipes happen or even play them myself just to recover faster than everyone else sounds good. I like the resiliency this gives to a board-centric strategy.

In lack of blue and counterspells also want some hatebears, but probably not too many.
Mutate is a cool mechanic, but I cant tell if the other mutate creatures are really worth it for me. Were they more of a flavour thing for you in your deck or did they actually play well?

Entomb, Buried Alive and cyclelands are perfect. Besides this a land toolbox and Crop Rotation is alway nice.

What I really liked about Tayam, Luminous Enigma and the Partners is that both commander options came with some potential for interesting value-combos. But I dont want my strategy to end in the same infinite combo every game. To my frustration in EDH with the cards I like there are rarely combos that are just efficient and really good that dont go infinite and threaten the whole table at the same time. I thought about adding more blink-combos with Felidar Guardian to make use of Yannik in my partner-list and also included some new cards like Basri's Lieutenant. But than I would always rely on finding the same combo-pieces with my tutors.

I don't own any OG dual lands and also dont have Gaea's Cradle or Survival of the Fittest. But most of the other cards you name as well as all fetchlands, usual cedh tutors and fast mana I do have available.

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Post by darrenhabib » 3 years ago

Artemis132 wrote:
3 years ago
In lack of blue and counterspells also want some hatebears, but probably not too many.
Mutate is a cool mechanic, but I cant tell if the other mutate creatures are really worth it for me. Were they more of a flavour thing for you in your deck or did they actually play well?
The mutate mechanic did actually work out much more effective than it thought it would and I basically got addicted to it, so you'll see that my "Kaheera, the Orphanguard // Morophon" and "Keruga, the Macrosage // Animar" companion decks also run the mutate theme.

However I will say that you don't need it specifically for triggering Nethroi multiple times, as often casting him once is good enough.
But you do probably want at least one or two silver bullets for the mechanic again. Gemrazer and Sawtusk Demolisher are nice as removal as well. Its also hard to pass up on the land ramp of Migratory Greathorn as well. Just saying.

If you look at my list the hate-bears are greeeeeeeeat. As in the are really effective. I would also try and personally cut down on number of artifacts and enchantments you do end up running as running Bane of Progress is a blow out to opponents when it only takes up 2 power for the purposes of Nethroi.
Then also Collector Ouphe and Kataki, War's Wage are pretty..well hateful.
Honestly it might be that the literally only artifact you'd look to run is Sol Ring (and Mana Crypt if you have one).
Birthing Pod might be the only other artifact you could look to use.

This next paragraph is just me thinking out loud, nothing specifically to do with you, but maybe there is a cycling deck to be made with Life from the Loam and Nethroi?
I was just thinking about Fluctuator as a way to use cycling 2 lands and Loam (something I've done in the past).
Archfiend of Ifnir, Eternal Dragon, Scion of Darkness, Shefet Monitor, Street Wraith, Undead Gladiator, Valiant Rescuer are about the best cycling creatures I could find, which isn't a lot unfortunately.
Herald of the Forgotten is a payoff card as well but very expensive and can't be cheated.
Then on top of this run a slide deck with Astral Slide and Astral Drift and plenty of good stuff ETB creatures like Knight of Autumn, Recruiter of the Guard, Sidisi, Undead Vizier, Reclamation Sage, Eternal Witness, Cavalier of Thorns, Wood Elves, Yavimaya Dryad.

Artemis132
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Post by Artemis132 » 3 years ago

darrenhabib wrote:
3 years ago
This next paragraph is just me thinking out loud, nothing specifically to do with you, but maybe there is a cycling deck to be made with Life from the Loam and Nethroi?
I was just thinking about Fluctuator as a way to use cycling lands and Loam (something I've done in the past).
Archfiend of Ifnir, Eternal Dragon, Scion of Darkness, Shefet Monitor, Street Wraith, Undead Gladiator, Valiant Rescuer are about the best cycling creatures I could find, which isn't a lot unfortunately.
Herald of the Forgotten is a payoff card as well but very expensive and can't be cheated.
Then on top of this run a slide deck with Astral Slide and Astral Drift and plenty of good stuff ETB creatures like Knight of Autumn, Recruiter of the Guard, Sidisi, Undead Vizier, Reclamation Sage, Eternal Witness, Cavalier of Thorns, Wood Elves, Yavimaya Dryad.
Cycling with Nethroi is an interesting idea! Although as you already pointed out the support for cycling with good cycling creatures isnt great...
I also thought about a list with graveyard-sacrifice shenanigans and maybe some casual-value hulk-lines with Luminous Broodmoth and some other new cards as well, using Nethroi as an explosive graveyard-hulk value card in the mid- to lategame.

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