Grothama, All-Devouring - The Maw of Oblivion

[cheonice]

Archdruid's Charm is a slamdunk, isn't it? It does absolutely everything. It's just NEVER dead.

[Kyra Warsong]

So how do the discard animals work for you (Wild Mongrel and Noose Constrictor)? I they can frow to enourmous sizes, but only after we killed Grothama.

I have found recently that there have been a few times where I needed to use them to discard down so that my Rishkar's Expertise didn't deck me but I could still get the win off a Psychosis Crawler draw.

I see what you mean with Natural Order as I don't have many good creatures to trade with, I use it either early and sac whatever I can to get what I need to kill Grothama/cheese or to get the one creature I need when my board is already established. How do you effectively use Pattern of Rebirth though ? Casting it and Grothama in a single turn is 9 manas and leaving Grothama alone a whole turn is dangerous. And if you already have a nice board and just want the icing on the cake, it's too unreliable because you need to find a way to kill the creature if it's not Grothama.

For Last March of the Ents, it looks to me as good as the new Ghalta > Same cmc but you trade the big body for more draw ( so more creatures to drop ) and the "can't be counterspelled". 8 manas to blow up the whole table seems a fair trade to me but I'm gonna admit this is one of my favorite wincon as I really enjoy dropping a whole army of fatties on the board haha (that's why I want to play Concordant Crossroads too). I may replace the myojin for something else because it costs one more mana

Kyoshiro, I think that your choices are valid. I feel that Natural Order and Pattern of Rebirth are much much closer in utility than either you or SquirrelToken are giving them credit for. In my experience, Pattern can be used as a deterrent early, or late to trade the Big Girl in for one of the wincons. I notice you aren't playing High Market, which I do think is a valid choice, but it does add a little bit of additional utility to Pattern. To me, it seems like six of one, half-dozen of the other. Pattern has served me extremely well thus far.

So, the question of March vs Ghalta is another very close call for me. I don't particularly care for March, and to be honest I'm not super happy with Ghalta either, but the floor for Ghalta is a 12/12 and the floor for March is nothing. We're not really a "dump your whole hand on the board" kind of deck, at least not the way Squirrel and I have built the deck; I originally cut Tooth and Nail, which felt like it underperformed, for Ghalta.

Archdruid's Charm is a slamdunk, isn't it? It does absolutely everything. It's just NEVER dead.

Hmmm... I do rather like that. I'm not particularly impressed by any individual piece at that price but it feels like the flexibility raises it a bit in my estimation. The one thing that I wish is that it didn't say, "target creature you don't control," but I'm learning that that's just gonna be the way most fighty type cards. You may have found the way for me to include a fight type card in the deck - staple it to three other effects that I find useful. I think it's a curious eyebrow raise from me. Please try it out, let me know how it goes!

On a more general note, I'm glad of the resurgence in interest in the deck! Please tell me how well your builds perform when you get the chance!

[cheonice]

Archdruid's Charm is a slamdunk, isn't it? It does absolutely everything. It's just NEVER dead.

Hmmm... I do rather like that. I'm not particularly impressed by any individual piece at that price but it feels like the flexibility raises it a bit in my estimation. The one thing that I wish is that it didn't say, "target creature you don't control," but I'm learning that that's just gonna be the way most fighty type cards. You may have found the way for me to include a fight type card in the deck - staple it to three other effects that I find useful. I think it's a curious eyebrow raise from me. Please try it out, let me know how it goes!

On a more general note, I'm glad of the resurgence in interest in the deck! Please tell me how well your builds perform when you get the chance!

You wrote a lot about the importance of certain non-basic lands. The charm can tutor them directly into play at instant speed. It's a bit overcosted, but the flexibility is just absurd. It handles creatures, enchantments and artifacts or is the best creature in your deck. At instant speed. I just ordered one in the presale, something I never do...

[Kyra Warsong]

Archdruid's Charm is a slamdunk, isn't it? It does absolutely everything. It's just NEVER dead.

Hmmm... I do rather like that. I'm not particularly impressed by any individual piece at that price but it feels like the flexibility raises it a bit in my estimation. The one thing that I wish is that it didn't say, "target creature you don't control," but I'm learning that that's just gonna be the way most fighty type cards. You may have found the way for me to include a fight type card in the deck - staple it to three other effects that I find useful. I think it's a curious eyebrow raise from me. Please try it out, let me know how it goes!

On a more general note, I'm glad of the resurgence in interest in the deck! Please tell me how well your builds perform when you get the chance!

You wrote a lot about the importance of certain non-basic lands. The charm can tutor them directly into play at instant speed. It's a bit overcosted, but the flexibility is just absurd. It handles creatures, enchantments and artifacts or is the best creature in your deck. At instant speed. I just ordered one in the presale, something I never do...

You know, sometimes your brain autofills words that aren't actually on the card; that particular time it was 'basic'. I like that significantly more now! Your instinct is very good, @cheonice, and I think I will be grabbing one of these as I'm able.

[Kyra Warsong]

Game report from tonight, and @Kyoshiro, I think you might find this interesting.

Someone targets my Greater Good with an exile effect. I respond by activating Selvala to gain 8, then popping my Emergence Zone and casting Ghalta, Stampede Tyrant. With her effect on the stack, I sacrifice her to Greater Good, draw 12, discard 3, and then sac my Hunted Troll for good measure, then drop a metric ton of creatures into play, including Kozilek, the Great Distortion. From that point I was able to lock the game up very effectively, and went infinite on my turn despite the biggest player at the table having 96 life.

@SquirrelToken, I think I'm starting to realize that while we have very similar lists and very similar philosophies for why we like the cards we do, we play the deck quite differently. I find myself constantly in these situations where I'm doing ridiculous things like that at instant speed, whereas I have gotten the impression you prefer to play at sorcery speed. I really love that; we both love this deck and we both pilot it but our playstyles are different and the choices we make are affected by the differences in our personalities. I haven't really ever had the opportunity to experience that with another person, playing the same deck but different. It makes me want to sit down at a physical table with you at some point and both play the deck in the same game.

[SquirrelToken]

Archdruid's Charm is a slamdunk, isn't it? It does absolutely everything. It's just NEVER dead.

It is almost certainly as good as it looks. That thing is just nutty, and as a squirrel, nuts are my thing! I'm not going to preorder, because it WILL drop, but it's definitely worth picking up if we time the market properly.

@SquirrelToken, I think I'm starting to realize that while we have very similar lists and very similar philosophies for why we like the cards we do, we play the deck quite differently. I find myself constantly in these situations where I'm doing ridiculous things like that at instant speed, whereas I have gotten the impression you prefer to play at sorcery speed. I really love that; we both love this deck and we both pilot it but our playstyles are different and the choices we make are affected by the differences in our personalities. I haven't really ever had the opportunity to experience that with another person, playing the same deck but different. It makes me want to sit down at a physical table with you at some point and both play the deck in the same game.

I don't know if I prefer to play at sorcery speed, or if my opponents just allow me the luxury of playing at sorcery speed, and that makes me soft. Still, it's a good observation - I'll keep an eye out the next few times I pull the deck out, and see if I'm just being allowed to durdle, or if there's pressure and I'm just ignoring it.

[Kyra Warsong]

Murder at Karlov Manor Set Review

Gonna be brief with this, because as usual there is very little to talk about (what, we don't get a bunch of new toys in the Sherlock Holmes set?).

Archdruid's Charm - The obvious frontrunner, (thank you for pointing it out, @cheonice) the Charm has 3 modes that are all useful. A creature/land tutor stapled to a (ugh) Fight+ card, stapled to an artifact/enchantment removal is extremely flexible, and I think we want this even if most of the time we'll be using this as a creature tutor (although more ways to search out Reliquary Tower will never go amiss). This is as close as it gets to autoinclude from this particular set.

Case of the Locked Hothouse - In the early game, this will let us drop a second land each turn. We aren't playing any of the other "additional land card" (see Oracle of Mul Daya) so I doubt we'll want this. Playing land and casting creatures off the top of the library is also nice, but we aren't playing Vizier of the Menagerie either. A pretty cool card but not what we're looking for. Also, 100% the butler.

Case of the Trampled Garden - Hmmm... I guess the Azorius does have to investigate petty vandalism as well, huh? So I could see a world where we played this card, but it's not this one. We could just get trample for three mana in the form of Garruk's Uprising and a few similar cards without jumping through any hoops, regardless of how easy it is for us to jump through.

Tunnel Tipster - Is not for this deck but might be the cutest card since Eldraine's rat token. I imagine them talking with a really growly voice that is so out of step with how utterly adorable they are.

Murder at Karlov Manor Commander

This set seems really great for people who've been holding out for the Kadena, Slinking Sorcerer upgrades, but less so for us. I mean, Three Visits is getting reprinted again! That's cool! We don't really care about facedown cards or investigations. Feel free to smack me if you see something I don't but I don't think there's much here for us.

[SquirrelToken]

Tunnel Tipster - Is not for this deck but might be the cutest card since Eldraine's rat token. I imagine them talking with a really growly voice that is so out of step with how utterly adorable they are.

"Burr! You'm spake ee molespeak vurry gudd, miz. Whurr did ee lurn et?"

[Kyra Warsong]

Did we talk about our mutual Redwall childhood pasttime?? Because I spent a ton of time as a young girl reading and rereading Taggerrung.

It's strange, I feel like it's been seconds since Murder at Karlov Manor came out, and yet there's no previews for the next set to talk about.

Sights for this deck are presently set on Archdruid's Charm, Song of the Dryads, The Great Henge, and Boseiju, Who Endures.

[SquirrelToken]

Did we talk about our mutual Redwall childhood pasttime?? Because I spent a ton of time as a young girl reading and rereading Taggerrung.

It's strange, I feel like it's been seconds since Murder at Karlov Manor came out, and yet there's no previews for the next set to talk about.

Sights for this deck are presently set on Archdruid's Charm, Song of the Dryads, The Great Henge, and Boseiju, Who Endures.

We did not, but allow me to point out one thing: BOOKS HAVE SQUIRRELS.

I rest my case.

(Also, there's literally a video on WeeklyMTG tomorrow about Thunder Junction, so ... uh huh, welcome to eternal preview season)

[SquirrelToken]

Ugh, I hate Universes Beyond, but have you SEEN Power Fist? Trample and increasing amounts of +1/+1 counters seems like a good thing.

[Kyra Warsong]

Ugh, I hate Universes Beyond, but have you SEEN Power Fist? Trample and increasing amounts of +1/+1 counters seems like a good thing.

That does look very good... Hmm. I'm immediately a little bit off-put by it and I'm not entirely certain why; UB doesn't bother me quite as much, or at least it hasn't up to this point. I'll keep it in mind moving forward.

I've added a budget list to the primer; it's still not a dirt cheap budget list but it is $500 cheaper than my main list.

[Kyra Warsong]

I'm having a though slowly bubbling up here. Recently I discovered that this deck is a little overtuned for the playgroup I just started spending time with. I'm thinking about assembling a power up/down board; I am too competitive to genuinely make the decision to cut Mana Crypt, but a sideboard where I can pull out Mana Crypt and replace it with something else sounds like more my speed.

I'm extremely picky about my decks, and I built Xantcha recently. She's... okay, but literally every time I play a deck that isn't Grothama, I have the thought "I could be playing Grothama right now."

[cheonice]

I'm having a though slowly bubbling up here. Recently I discovered that this deck is a little overtuned for the playgroup I just started spending time with. I'm thinking about assembling a power up/down board; I am too competitive to genuinely make the decision to cut Mana Crypt, but a sideboard where I can pull out Mana Crypt and replace it with something else sounds like more my speed.

I'm extremely picky about my decks, and I built Xantcha recently. She's... okay, but literally every time I play a deck that isn't Grothama, I have the thought "I could be playing Grothama right now."

Everybody has a happy deck

Thanks for the budget list! I'm still brewing some mono green lists (Grothama and Ojer Kaslem, Deepest Growth // Temple of Cultivation) and haven't quite decided, which direction I want to go. I probably should just proxy a list and test it.

[Rumpy5897]

I'm having a though slowly bubbling up here. Recently I discovered that this deck is a little overtuned for the playgroup I just started spending time with. I'm thinking about assembling a power up/down board; I am too competitive to genuinely make the decision to cut Mana Crypt, but a sideboard where I can pull out Mana Crypt and replace it with something else sounds like more my speed.

I agree completely. My group introduced a no Sol Ring policy, and my primers are the only decks grandfathered in with fast rocks. I can't just take them out, these are write-ups illustrating how to build the commander dammit! That said, from experience, offering a "sideboard" in the primer ends up slipping out of your control with time too. I took various Rule of Law effects out of Daxos five years ago, replacing them with a swap list. Now I have zero feel for how the sideboarded deck would even play anymore. I guess it would be different in your case as you could make more active use of it, and also the stuff you'd put in would be the very top tier of mana rocks so obviously it would be good.

Also I adore Xantcha and would love to see your take on her. I tried building her twice, and the second take got pretty close to making it to paper, but I just couldn't figure out anything particularly cool to do in the final 1v1. There are only so many times you can recycle secret evasion tech to make Phage the Untouchable kill someone before it gets old.

Also also Power Fist is awesome and is going straight into my Saryth. It's great that green is getting some Necropolis Regent style effects between this and Conclave Sledge-Captain, plus there's also been the recent "double stats" exploration too. Good times to be playing Timmy fat!

[Terrone]

Hi everyone! I've been playing grothama for a couple years now and i absolutely love her. I often peeked at this thread to find inspiration for a couple deck upgrades and i'd like to sharre my decklist with yall. It's slightly different from kyra's but plays really similar, i bought this week a phyrexian dreadnought because it's a card i always liked a lot and i just happened to have aroundd 80€ in store credit at my lgs and i said why not. She's so satisfying to play and totally worth the money imo. It's just a very good card to own in general, both for money and for playing.
Here's the list

Decklist

DecklistCMCManaPricesChartsDraw 7

Creatures

1 Defiler of Vigor

1 Elvish Spirit Guide

1 Freelance Muscle

1 Ghalta, Primal Hunger

1 Ghalta, Stampede Tyrant

1 God-Eternal Rhonas

1 Goreclaw, Terror of Qal Sisma

1 Green Slime

1 Hunted Troll

1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion

1 Mossbridge Troll

1 Noose Constrictor

1 Phyrexian Dreadnought

1 Psychosis Crawler

1 Rhonas the Indomitable

1 Stonehoof Chieftain

1 Stuffy Doll

1 Surrak and Goreclaw

1 Temur Sabertooth

1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre

1 Ulvenwald Hydra

1 Vigor

1 Wild Mongrel

1 Zopandrel, Hunger Dominus

Artifacts

1 Basilisk Collar

1 Consulate Dreadnought

1 Emerald Medallion

1 Lightning Greaves

1 Rhonas's Monument

1 Shadowspear

1 Sol Ring

1 Swiftfoot Boots

1 The Skullspore Nexus

1 Thought Vessel

Enchantments

1 Bear Umbra

1 Fight Rigging

1 Gaea's Touch

1 Greater Good

1 Pattern of Rebirth

1 Rancor

1 Song of the Dryads

1 Unnatural Growth

1 Wild Growth

Instants

1 Beast Within

1 Berserk

1 Constant Mists

1 Crop Rotation

1 Entish Restoration

1 Harrow

1 Legolas's Quick Reflexes

1 Nature's Claim

1 Noxious Revival

1 Ram Through

1 Return of the Wildspeaker

1 Tyvar's Stand

Sorceries

1 All Is Dust

1 Bala Ged Recovery // Bala Ged Sanctuary

1 Nature's Lore

1 Nostalgic Dreams

1 Rishkar's Expertise

1 Skyshroud Claim

1 Traverse the Outlands

Lands

1 Castle Garenbrig

1 Emergence Zone

26 Forest

1 Ghost Quarter

1 High Market

1 Lair of the Hydra

1 Mosswort Bridge

1 Reliquary Tower

1 Rogue's Passage

1 Sanctum of Eternity

1 Scavenger Grounds

1 Treetop Village

Approximate Total Cost:

While these are the cards that i keep cutting and putting back in, but i think the list before is this deck's best shape

Decklist

DecklistCMCManaPricesChartsDraw 7

Maybeee

1 Archdruid's Charm

1 Birthing Pod

1 Eternal Witness

1 Nissa's Pilgrimage

1 Oran-Rief, the Vastwood

1 Sasaya, Orochi Ascendant // Sasaya's Essence

1 Sekki, Seasons' Guide

1 Tooth and Nail

1 Wood Elves

Approximate Total Cost:

I hope to hear some suggestions from y'all! Definitely my favorite deck and i'd be very happy if i could improve it some more while keeping it way below cEDH, so i'm always on the look for new cards to play.
Byeee :D

[SquirrelToken]

Hi everyone! I've been playing grothama for a couple years now and i absolutely love her. I often peeked at this thread to find inspiration for a couple deck upgrades and i'd like to sharre my decklist with yall. I hope to hear some suggestions from y'all! Definitely my favorite deck and i'd be very happy if i could improve it some more while keeping it way below cEDH, so i'm always on the look for new cards to play.
Byeee :D

Ciao, Terrone! I see that your deck is very similar to mine and Kyra's (full disclosure: as it says upthread, I built mine around her skeleton). Two cards that I see in your list that I wanted to ask about are All Is Dust and ESG. All Is Dust seems to occupy the same slot as Ugin in our decks, but it also feels less flexible. Ugin lets us do a narrow wipe, while All Is Dust blows up the world, full stop. ESG is basically a Treasure token in your hand. That feels like either awesome fast mana or not good enough, and I'm leaning towards not good enough. You don't really have any other fast mana, just ramp (and I totally understand the irony of saying "just ramp" in a monogreen deck). But that means that ESG buys you one turn once. I just don't feel that warrants a slot in the deck. I'm also kind of down on Consulate Dreadnought; I think that Kyra and I have both cut it for bigger (well, figuratively) and better things.

Overall, seems like a really solid piece of green fat. Welcome to the club, fellow Disciple of the Slug!

[Terrone]

Ciao, Terrone! I see that your deck is very similar to mine and Kyra's (full disclosure: as it says upthread, I built mine around her skeleton). Two cards that I see in your list that I wanted to ask about are All Is Dust and ESG. All Is Dust seems to occupy the same slot as Ugin in our decks, but it also feels less flexible. Ugin lets us do a narrow wipe, while All Is Dust blows up the world, full stop. ESG is basically a Treasure token in your hand. That feels like either awesome fast mana or not good enough, and I'm leaning towards not good enough. You don't really have any other fast mana, just ramp (and I totally understand the irony of saying "just ramp" in a monogreen deck). But that means that ESG buys you one turn once. I just don't feel that warrants a slot in the deck. I'm also kind of down on Consulate Dreadnought; I think that Kyra and I have both cut it for bigger (well, figuratively) and better things.

Overall, seems like a really solid piece of green fat. Welcome to the club, fellow Disciple of the Slug!

Hey! I only have all is dust instead of ugin simply because i don't own ugin and i thought it was the best mass removal spell i could play. Elvish spirit guide is a card i've found super powerful in the right situations and ok in others. It can easily lead to huge explosive turns in the early game, without anyone expecting it and as said by kyra in earlier posts it can be useful for protection without worrying about saving mana during your turn. Overall i'm always happy when i draw her and never a dead card. The only instances where she's useless is if i draw her from a big grothama cash in, but at that point the one extra mana is already useless

[SquirrelToken]

Hey! I only have all is dust instead of ugin simply because i don't own ugin and i thought it was the best mass removal spell i could play. Elvish spirit guide is a card i've found super powerful in the right situations and ok in others. It can easily lead to huge explosive turns in the early game, without anyone expecting it and as said by kyra in earlier posts it can be useful for protection without worrying about saving mana during your turn. Overall i'm always happy when i draw her and never a dead card. The only instances where she's useless is if i draw her from a big grothama cash in, but at that point the one extra mana is already useless

I can't believe that I'm saying this, but what about a fight card (@Kyra Warsong , feel free to smack me)? You've got Ezuri's Predation at 8, which is more of a one-sided wipe. It's also conditional - it won't take out big creatures - but it also leaves all of your setup alone. All Is Dust is a cool sweeper but it leaves artifacts on the board and sometimes you need to nuke those. Another option is Apex Altisaur, which, at 9 mana, is definitely pushing it, but it takes out one thing that you definitely need to take out, and it can take out 9 power worth of other things on its way, again leaving your stuff intact. Just a thought.

[Kyra Warsong]

Hey Terrone! Your list looks great! All the flex slots are admirable choices that I don't object to in any way. I wish I had some suggestions for you but at the moment I don't!

Squirrel, ESG is a new add for me, I'm trying it out; so far she hasn't done a ton for me but it's been two games since then. The conceit was to have a surprise pocket Tyvar's Stand or Legolas's Reflexes and sometimes have an explosive opener. I'm still on the fence about her. I've not cut the Consulate Dreadnought yet, although I'm considering dropping it for Gaea's Touch. Ezuri's Predation was not even on my radar, that's an interesting option that I'd not considered.

[Kyra Warsong]

Won the one game I played yesterday. ESG let me activate Archdruid's Charm on my opponent's end step to grab Surrak and Goreclaw for a game-ending Ghalta, Stampede Tyrant. I'm pretty proud of my use of removal, I stopped myself from losing to commander damage by destroying a Field-Tested Frying Pan with Nature's Claim mid combat. I also managed to sidestep a piece of land removal, they destroyed my Reliquary Tower but I made my Thespian's Stage a copy in response.

[SquirrelToken]

Surrak and Goreclaw ... I acquired one of those last summer and it's still sitting next to the deck, looking for a cut. Not sure what to take out for it.

[SquirrelToken]

Oh my, we're getting another power doubler and this one seems nutty. Railway Brawler Now I want Trample on my team more than ever!

[heyitsgg]

Hello all,

Just wanted to say that I read the original post a few years ago and was astounded by it (though I still haven't built the deck). It would then pop into my thoughts every few months.

I was looking through it again tonight and imagine my surprise to see it's been updated with recent cards, and reading past the first page I see these updates are still coming!

All of that is to say, thanks so much for making this post about such an interesting commander, and moreso thank you 1000 times more for keeping the list and discussion updated. It means a ton to me and was such a fun surprise. I hope to sometime soon finally build the deck myself and enjoy.

[Kyra Warsong]

Oh my, we're getting another power doubler and this one seems nutty. Railway Brawler Now I want Trample on my team more than ever!

What is this??? What the flying Rath is this??? Seems like we've been getting chase mythics pretty consistently the last few months. I'll see if I can do a pre release and cross my fingers to pull one like I did with Ghalta.