Grenzo, Dungeon Warden - The Slot Machine of Value

[Arkren]

i have been looking and apart from the walrus i dont think that any of the cards make the cut. they of course enter in some list if you dont have other cards and need to fill spots, but they are for the most part worse. mahadi could also enter... he has potential, but the ability triggers at end step so i can see opponents dealing with him if he is going to put a lot of treasures before the trigger, if the ability triggered on creature dying i would be a lot better. of course if left unchecked that dude could end up giving a lot of mana for grenzo, maybe for metas with less instant speed removal

[Robobro72]

I think Reckless Barbarian is one of the strongest cards in the set for Grenzo. Of all the mana-neutral creatures, once the engine starts going it is almost equivalent to a Priest of Urabrask effect considering it can immediately send itself to the graveyard for aristocrat synergies/reanimation. More importantly, it is exceptionally better than a priest from hand, curving quite well into grenzo and a flip for X=1 / power<=3 builds.

Searching for similar effects, (BR creatures with appropriate power that add mana) this is the first creature that can immediately produce 2 or more mana that costs 2 or less mana. Not the flashiest card but quite strong imo.

[charlieshulz]

First of all, this thread has been a great read and I'm looking forward seeing the updates and discussion. I just built a Grenzo deck and I was surprised some cards weren't mentionned. Since I haven't played the deck yet, I'm guessing I will (most likely) find out the reasons why these cards didn't make the cut, but I'd like to have your oppinion on them regardless. Sorry if some of these have been mentionned.

Meekstone : Definetly weeker in some heavy low power tokens metas, but I feel like this card is great in grenzo, since it allows us to slow down other decks while building our board and getting value.

Noosegraf Mob : Not the best on it's own, but I feel like flipping it to have 5 2/2s is great when it comes to our Ashnod's Altar, multiple sac outlets and aristocrat/death trigger gameplan.

Canal Dredger : Similar to Junktroller but has 1 power and is not a defender. Only deals with our graveyard unfortunately.

Thief of Blood : Instantly kills all planeswalkers and shuts down +1/+1 counters decks while becoming a big beater. At worst, is a flying creature we can use to block which the deck lacks

Desecrated Tomb : Synergizes with Ashnod's Altar and Grenzo, Dungeon Warden, allowing us to flip until we run out of 1/1 bats.

Crystal Grotto : Is a better Zhalfirin Void since It allows us to collor fix in case we need. I'd run both.

Opal Palace : On the weaker side, but doesn't enter tap, and is allows us to pump Grenzo, Dungeon Warden if he's been removed a few times.

High Market : Big fan of this land as its an additional sac outlet and I don't mind the colorless mana since we're most likely spending it on flipping.

Study Hall Allows us to scry at instant speed for the number of time grenzo was cast. At worst, we scry 1 for 1 colorless.

Looking forward seeing what you think!

[Arkren]

Meekstone : problem with this card. apart from the "no-creature" thing, is that this is a police card, when i dont think grenzo´s casino gameplay is looking to control the game.

Noosegraf Mob : looks cool, but is dead in hand, and is not good for the combo gameplay, in a lower power level creature based deck, maybe good

Canal Dredger : this card is usually used, but is the worse of all the cards that do this, so i suppose that is the first one to leave once the decks starts to reach a certain level. junktroller messing with opponents gy has saved me a couple of times.

Thief of Blood : very cool card against superfriends and counter decks, i suppose that in the right meta this one is actually very powerful, didnt know about it.

Desecrated Tomb : i had that card in my first version of grenzo. "no-creature" hurts it and is effect is not that poweful, looks good, but i have never managed to get much value from it, they either destroy it, or kill grenzo in response or... and feels like you have spend mana and a card on something that maybe gets you 2-3 bats that dont go anywhere. sure, is good with ashnod, but what card isnt good with ashnod altar?

Crystal Grotto : didnt knew about it and yes, is better. i would probably get one, good find

Opal Palace : is actually very good, grenzo usually needs/wants to enter with counters, this thing helps with that saving the much needed mana that we need for flips.

High Market : i dont personally have one in my deck, but yes, this card is usually good if you dont feel like you need the coloured mana, and grenzo usually doesnt have that problem

Study Hall : i dont know, scrying looks cool on paper, i put some cards that do that in my list at the beginning, but ended up removing them all. this one is a land so maybe better

[charlieshulz]

Meekstone : problem with this card. apart from the "no-creature" thing, is that this is a police card, when i dont think grenzo´s casino gameplay is looking to control the g....

Thank you for your answer, Arkren! Yes, my concern with Meekstone is also getting targeted at the table when our plan is to be under the radar. Will play test it, along with Noosegraf Mob and Desecrated Tomb. Canal Dredger is definitely a cut for higher power. I feel like the other cards mentioned are great and I'll include them.

[Bouwow]

Study Hall Allows us to scry at instant speed for the number of time grenzo was cast. At worst, we scry 1 for 1 colorless.

I would rather save the mana for an extra flip

Thief of Blood : Instantly kills all planeswalkers and shuts down +1/+1 counters decks while becoming a big beater. At worst, is a flying creature we can use to block which the deck lacks

Grenzo's flips are random, so best case it kills a planeswalker (which are arguably the weakest card type in commander) and in all cases it removes the +1/+1 counter from Grenzo and you have to find a way to increase his power otherwise you just made a lot of your flips dead.

Opal Palace : On the weaker side, but doesn't enter tap, and is allows us to pump Grenzo, Dungeon Warden if he's been removed a few times.

I actually like this suggestion and will try it out!

[codebaboon]

I think I'm going to try the Crystal Grotto and Opal Palace also. Nice suggestions, charlieschulz!

I was perusing the 40k reveals and a bunch of stuff looks interesting:

Illuminor Szeras caught my eye as a more flexible Soldevi Adnate .

Plasmancer is perhaps a better option than one of Solemn Simulacrum or Burnished Hart . We don't really care too much about the card draw on Solemn, Plasmancer ETB's rather than requiring a mana investment like Burnished Hart, is still an artifact, and it gives us another flying blocker in the list.

Sanguinary Priest is maybe interesting as another Zulaport Cutthroat type of finisher with the additional option of pinging pesky creatures when you aren't in a position to go infinite and bolstering your life total in the process.

Canoptek Scarab Swarm could add some graveyard hate while also potentially giving you some flying blockers or sac fodder.

And there is also The Golden Throne, but I'm not really sure what to make of that one.

[JBdnr]

Plasmancer: The Swamp goes to hand, not to the battlefield. I like Illuminor Szeras and Primaris Eliminator.

[codebaboon]

Plasmancer: The Swamp goes to hand, not to the battlefield.

Dang, I totally missed that.

[Hitman]

Illuminor Szeras with Zealous Conscripts and Nim Deathmantle makes infinite mana.

Plaza of Heroes is another great new land for Grenzo.

[Gribbet]

I really like Desecrated Tomb. It gets you an extra body on flip and when you tuck. If they blow it up, better that then some of the other artifacts.

Primaris Eliminator seems pretty good as well.

[charlieshulz]

Looking for your opinion on a few cards:

Tuktuk Rubblefort : Gives our creatures haste, and has reach which helps the deck sustain against decks with flying creatures.

Fires of Invention : Allows us to cast two spells for free during our turn, and we don't care about not being able to play spells during other players turns, since we activate Grenzo anyway.

Garna, the Bloodflame : Is great in our hand when we need to get back something in our graveyard, gives our creatures haste. Only concern if it can non-bo during some loops.

Chaos Warp : Is a dead flip but I like having a few interraction options in my deck.

Scaretiller : Might be an alternative to Crucible of Worlds and isn't a dead flip.

Also, here is a Grenzo discord in case anyone wants to join: https://discord.gg/PfJgesQA

[JBdnr]

Hey guys. _____ Goblin is always at least 4 mana on ETB (and 5 a lot of the time), easily outclassing Priest of Urabrask and Priest of Gix while being tutorable by Goblin Matron and Moggcatcher. You pick 8 sticker sheets for your "sticker sideboard", 3 random ones of which you can use in the game. There are 10 with a name sticker with at least 4 vowels, and I think I counted 3 sticker sheets with at least a 5-vowel name sticker. The chance to get one of the 5+-vowel ones in your 3 sheets is 71%.

I will for sure be running this guy, even though the I don't really like carrying around 10 extra sticker sheets for just 1 card in the deck.

Edit: There is even 1 sticker sheet with a 6-vowel word. Also, notably, it does not go infinite with a loop as we can flip it a maximum number of 9 times for mana. I don't think this is big enough a downside for this not to be an auto include though. After 9 flips, we probably went +enough mana with Cauldron + sacrifice outlet for example, most likely flipping into something else that can end the game.

[Arkren]

Hey guys. _____ Goblin is always at least 4 mana on ETB (and 5 a lot of the time), easily outclassing Priest of Urabrask and Priest of Gix while being tutorable by Goblin Matron and Moggcatcher. You pick 8 sticker sheets for your "sticker sideboard", 3 random ones of which you can use in the game. There are 10 with a name sticker with at least 4 vowels, and I think I counted 3 sticker sheets with at least a 5-vowel name sticker. The chance to get one of the 5+-vowel ones in your 3 sheets is 71%.

I will for sure be running this guy, even though the I don't really like carrying around 10 extra sticker sheets for just 1 card in the deck.

Edit: There is even 1 sticker sheet with a 6-vowel word. Also, notably, it does not go infinite with a loop as we can flip it a maximum number of 9 times for mana. I don't think this is big enough a downside for this not to be an auto include though. After 9 flips, we probably went +enough mana with Cauldron + sacrifice outlet for example, most likely flipping into something else that can end the game.

i hate stickers with a passion so i dont think that i will play with this guy. y dont like that im going to be seeing other players using them too. all in all, have to say that im beyond dissapointed with magic these days, to the point that i dont feel like going to my lgs to play, i havent played mtg once in maybe months as of now. im probably retired, just that i dont know it yet

[Saidan]

Have you guys seen the Mishra meld pair? What do you think?

Phyrexian Dragon Engine : The ETB from graveyard is perfect for Grenzo, lost count of how many times I wanted to dump my entire hand to the yard.

Mishra, Claimed by Gix : Not as useful as the Dragon by itself, but the effect should be very good in more aggresive builds.

The melded side Mishra, Lost to Phyrexia is insane, provides a lot of options to deal with different board states. Also, its a freaking giant card

[crowned]

Hey there, long time lurker here. ;My current Grenzo Decklist
I've recently added more and more cards that fuel the Thornbite Staff & Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker- Combo.
Blood Pet and Reckless Barbarian are the best additions to the combo, since they are also good on their own, fueling your Grenzo activations and synergizing with your death triggers all around.
I've seen a great card for that particular synergy in Arcbound Reclaimer. While he's not the best recursion piece you can get, you can kill himself without a sacrifice outlet (he acts as his own) and also combines well with scry abilities. With a stacked trigger of Nefarious Imp or Warteye Witch you can put your precious creature artifacts to the bottom of your library to cheat them into the game again.

Another pitch for a cool new card: Ravenloft Adventurer!

• He is a great hatepiece against GY strategies
• He gives you the Initiative and progresses you at the Undercity, which is a high risk "great" reward card
• Basically he tutors a basic land for you and scries 2 for you, if you can protect your face for one turn. The following effects are quite nice aswell (creating a treasure, a beatstick and cheating in a random creature from the top of your library). I wont be sleeping on it.

Also while playing xmage I found out that GY hate doesn't work against Grenzo, which sort of blew my mind:
Basically Ley Line effects and spontaneous GY exiles or removal of Grenzo as a response to the trigger will never negate you getting your creature onto the battlefied (Scryfall Grenzo Rulings Page).
Did you guys know this? By acting on rules as they are written on the card I always thought static GY hate sees the card entering the graveyard, before I can return it.

[codebaboon]

Anyone adding things from Lord of the Rings? I'm considering the following in my list:

The Grey Havens [land] (replaces a basic land or Zhalfirin Void)
Mirkwood Bats [goodies] (replaces Jaxis, the Troublemaker)
Orcish Bowmasters [goodies] (replaces ???)

[snowfox54119]

Hey everyone,

I took a very much needed break from magic for a while. But life has calmed down a bit and the LotR set drew me right back into the action. So I wanted to let you know of two instant updates I made to the list. I'll be on the lookout for other goodies, but I'm not sure anything from the LotR set is a giant boon for this deck.

OUT:

• Soldevi Adnate
  Zhalfirin Void

IN:

• Illuminor Szeras - Just a better mana outlet as he can do any creature and not just artifact and black creatures
  Plaza of Heroes - Zhalfirin void his been low on my list for a while. While scry is powerful, 1 scry isnt always that impactful off a land. Plaza however provides some surprise protection from our land base to Grenzo which is an amazing additional source of keeping him safe from hateful players.

[snowfox54119]

Also while playing xmage I found out that GY hate doesn't work against Grenzo, which sort of blew my mind:
Basically Ley Line effects and spontaneous GY exiles or removal of Grenzo as a response to the trigger will never negate you getting your creature onto the battlefied (Scryfall Grenzo Rulings Page).
Did you guys know this? By acting on rules as they are written on the card I always thought static GY hate sees the card entering the graveyard, before I can return it.

Hey crowned, I actually break this ruling down in my FAQ section in the primer. That is part of why his ability is so great, it basically can't be stopped.

However, be aware there are some cards that completely hose you like Wheel of Sun and Moon.

[crowned]

Hey crowned, I actually break this ruling down in my FAQ section in the primer. That is part of why his ability is so great, it basically can't be stopped.
However, be aware there are some cards that completely hose you like Wheel of Sun and Moon.

Thanks for the info!

• Bowmasters are too good and will be put in any deck that can run them. They really need to be adressed IMO.
• Bats replaced Deathbringer Thoctar for me. I ran it as a 2nd Mayhem Devil and it was a pet card of mine. I have enough Token producers to make it worthwile.
• I'm running every scryland I can as I am super greedy with my landbase. They are never bad in this deck.
• I personally like Soldevi Adnate over Szeras because of the mana cost. I can play this on curve and use it a "mana-battery", sacrificing in the following turn in case I missed my land drops. If Szeras could sacrifice itself I would add it in addition to Adnate.
• I really would like to have a Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer, but it's too expensive for me right now.

Everyone of you is probably thinking they have the most oiled Grenzo machinery. I do too.
I put an emphasis on creatures that sacrifice themselves in order to continue looping with payoff cards.
current decklist

[clingring]

Hey everyone,

I took a very much needed break from magic for a while. But life has calmed down a bit and the LotR set drew me right back into the action. So I wanted to let you know of two instant updates I made to the list. I'll be on the lookout for other goodies, but I'm not sure anything from the LotR set is a giant boon for this deck.

OUT:

• Soldevi Adnate
  Zhalfirin Void

IN:

• Illuminor Szeras - Just a better mana outlet as he can do any creature and not just artifact and black creatures
  Plaza of Heroes - Zhalfirin void his been low on my list for a while. While scry is powerful, 1 scry isnt always that impactful off a land. Plaza however provides some surprise protection from our land base to Grenzo which is an amazing additional source of keeping him safe from hateful players.

Always love reading updates from you. If you get a chance, I'd love to see a fully up-to-date version of your list to compare against mine. I'm running Phyrexian Dragon Engine (pure value), Reito Sentinel (redundancy for Epitaph), and Young Necromancer in my list (replacing Whisper), for example, and I'm also considering Sanguinary Priest and/or Mirkwood Bats as potential redundancy or alternatives for Zulaport Cutthroat and Deathbringer Thoctar. There's so much good stuff printed for Grenzo lately that I'm having trouble making cuts/swaps.

[posuwamna]

Made an account just to comment on this wonderful thread. I'm convinced this is the best Magic has to offer- a small but incredibly helpful and resourceful community dedicated to optimizing a uniquely fun commander. Snowfox's fantastic primer along with many others on this thread have converted me to a dungeoneer. It's the only way to play now. That being said I have some two cents about the deck!

- Imho the newer Reckless Barbarian is a no brainer to include replacing Priest of Urabrask. Cheaper to cast from hand, slightly stronger body (honestly almost completely irrelevant but hey it's nice) and most importantly instant self sac trigger! I haven't played a game yet where the one extra mana makes a difference from Priest since Grenzo flips in even numbers, but being able to instantly sac to trigger really makes the difference.

- Mahadi, Emporium Master might be worth taking a look at. Really cheap for the value imo, easy cast from hand, a great 3/3 body if cast early game, and an off the rails treasure generator in late game.

- Kind of leaning into aristocrat strategy for my Grenzo deck Mayhem Devil is great repetition for Zulaport Cutthroat. The utility of having it be creature removal as well has saved me more than a few times along with Ashnod's Altar

- I know snowfox put Shriekmaw in the optional category, which is fair with how streamlined their deck is but DO NOT SLEEP ON HIM if you're considering. Such an absurdly strong card. Most of the times I'm evoking him for spot removal and looping him back for crazy payoff with the rest of my board often being focused on ETB and sac payoff. The fear effect is just the cherry on top, although we're almost never casting him from hand without evoke bc of the higher CMC.


Thanks so much again to snowfox and all the other dedicated contributors. So grateful this forum exists to optimize such a fantastic commander. I hope my input helps guide newcomers or sparks some conversation.

[clingring]

Thanks so much again to snowfox and all the other dedicated contributors. So grateful this forum exists to optimize such a fantastic commander. I hope my input helps guide newcomers or sparks some conversation.

Hey posuwamna, great suggestions. You've definitely convinced me to cut Priest of Urabrask in favor of Reckless Barbarian -- the self-sac really does make a massive difference. I also cut Phyrexian Dragon Engine, which is decent value from a flip but a huge bummer to draw, and added Mayhem Devil for some redundancy with Zulaport Cutthroat and Deathbringer Thoctar. Not totally sold on Mahadi or Shriekmaw yet, but Shriekmaw especially seems pretty sweet in the right list. If anyone is curious/wants to take some inspiration/wants to offer suggestions, here's my list: https://www.moxfield.com/decks/Lkxw3gjuMUizf3zI0fg03Q.

[SlurmsMcKenzie]

I also added Mirkwood Bats but would Never cut Deathbringer Thoctar because it is one of my main wincons.
Sadly i could rarely play the deck because it got a little too oppressive.
So i decided to make another list with lower powerlevel and did it in old/retro border only. There are subpar choices but I wanted a lot of Goblins. The list can still go off and is a lot of fun. Also i play it more often. Here is the list if anyone is interested. https://www.moxfield.com/decks/bu82RMch9UqCQCdSUcT85w
edit: don't ask about Goblin Bowling Team it's a rule zero thing.

[codebaboon]

Wilds of Eldraine has a new card of interest for me:

Fell Horseman // Deathly Ride - who needs an Epitaph Golem or Cauldron of Eternity when your sac fodder builds in the Digger part all by itself? Not sure what I'll pull out just yet but this feels like an obvious include.