[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

Aazadan
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Post by Aazadan » 10 months ago

I've seen enough jund playing Kroxa that I'm not convinced the deck would even care about losing astrolabe.

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Post by drmarkb » 10 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
10 months ago
drmarkb wrote:
10 months ago
Although as I have said elsewhere, the card just brings blue and black down to the level of white red levels of significant interaction in modern- none.
At what point before the printing of Urza and Uro and other busted 2019/20 cards, were blue or black interactive decks ever a "problem" that needed to be dealt with? Why did green ever "need" this card? Blue has been trash for YEARS and Thoughtseize decks were supposed to fill the void of blue being terrible by helping police the linear degeneracy. Almost all linear degenerate decks run green, and now have access to a fast-pass, get-out-of-jail-free card to do whatever they want. Veil is an atrocious insult to pretty much every format it remains legal
It is fine in Legacy. Astrolabe is an issue, labe is not. But I get the point.

UB decks were never an issue, I never said they were. Wotc want everything green. This is the no 1 colour for newbies. RW already did nothing, but U and B could stop people casting the big dumb green card advantage dude du jour. So they printed something that means all four colours can do nothing about Uro et al. The fact that UB players are now stopped from interacting meaningfully with this stuff and are now complaining is odd for those of us who have been asking for years for W, Colorless and R to be given meaningful answers (well white in my case) to linear dumb stuff. Now we are all getting the message. This format is not for you, a message WOTC have given to white players pretty much every set post Thalia.
Not for anyone who is not prepared to slap down a big threat in green and snow ball the game or do the same in tron. Not for people who want to answer, only those wanting to question or ramp and question.

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Post by drmarkb » 10 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
10 months ago
idSurge wrote:
10 months ago
I saw a lot of games where UW also smashed Tron however. There is a strong enough core foot UW.

It's just outclassed by Snow right now.
Not even 4 Field of Ruin can keep up with London Mulligan Tron. Especially on the draw.
London is not the issue there. Tron is. I do agree with you, 4 field is never enough to speed bump tron, which had become more consistent and had better threats, but Tron just really needs to go because it is always close to being broken by good green filtering, which keeps getting printed.

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 10 months ago

I personally don't see Tron as a problem. Tron has won 1 Challenge online with Jegantha as a Companion pre-new companion rules. Other than that, it's been nearly nonexistent. It even has trouble beating the Snow decks. I know many people say Tron is favored, but I don't agree with that. E Tron, maybe.

Arcum's Astrolabe, Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath, Veil of Summer, and Mystic Sanctuary need a serious look at them. At least 3 of those 4 cards need to be banned.
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Post by cfusionpm » 10 months ago

Saw these pop up on my feed. Definitely interesting to watch.


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FoodChainGoblins
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 10 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
10 months ago
Saw these pop up on my feed. Definitely interesting to watch.
I've watched Rounds 1 and 2 so far and it's the most interesting Modern I've watched in a long time. I know this is completely just my opinion, but this was fun game play to watch. Normally I don't watch unbanned series because it's not a legal format, but this one was fun! Still watching now... :cool:

Also a big fan of Fran. He was the first person I paid for a subscription too, and since have only done Todd Anderson because of his support on his stream for BLM.
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Post by Wraithpk » 10 months ago

Veil is the #1 card that should go. There's a reason they don't print cards like Pyroblast and Hyrdroblast in Modern. Veil is on that level of power, it's just too good for this format.
Modern
ubr Grixis Shadow ubr
uwg Bant Stoneblade uwg
gbr Jund gbr

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urIzzet Phoenixur
rMono-Red Aggror
uwAzorius Controluw

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bg Meren of Clan Nel Toth bg

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Post by The Fluff » 10 months ago

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want to play a uw control deck in modern, but don't have Jace or snapcaster? please come visit us at the Emeria thread

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Post by Simto » 10 months ago

Ym1r wrote:
10 months ago
Hey look, fair decks in modern finally have the tools to compete and now fair decks is the problem!
People have been arguing that modern is, essentially a rotating format because things change with every set or metagame shift.
I would argue that at this point, Modern is a rotating complain. Whatever is the best deck it is a cause for complain about modern (and modern specifically). Doesn't matter if it is artifact decks, tron variants, fair decks, combo decks, GY decks, if it's the best deck people will hate it.
Nailed it

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Post by th33l3x » 10 months ago

Simto wrote:
10 months ago
Ym1r wrote:
10 months ago
Hey look, fair decks in modern finally have the tools to compete and now fair decks is the problem!
People have been arguing that modern is, essentially a rotating format because things change with every set or metagame shift.
I would argue that at this point, Modern is a rotating complain. Whatever is the best deck it is a cause for complain about modern (and modern specifically). Doesn't matter if it is artifact decks, tron variants, fair decks, combo decks, GY decks, if it's the best deck people will hate it.
Nailed it
Modern has had periods where 1) several decks were so close to each other power-wise that it wasn't clear what the best deck was and 2) the gap between the best deck(s) and the rest of the field was much smaller than it is now.

The cards Bant Snow and Temur Urza are compiled of have blown the lid off modern powerwise.

I wish some people would think beyond that tough-guy mentality of "everybody else is a whining baby".

There are huge, obvious problems of power level compared to the rest of the field with the snow-core of Astrolabe, Uro, Coatl and Veil.

Temur Urza's core is 4x Urza, 4x Coatl, 4x Goose, 4x Astrolabe, 3-4x Uro, +counterspells+0xmc artifacts. All in all it runs about 30 cards printed within the last year, in a format with a 10 year deep card pool. Similar deal with bant Snow. If you don't see a problem with that, you're beyond help.

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Post by Tzoulis » 10 months ago

th33l3x wrote:
10 months ago
I wish some people would think beyond that tough-guy mentality of "everybody else is a whining baby".
If you've been playing long enough and/or have been around these forums for years, then you'll see why that phrase is close to true. I mean, UW is favored against Tron, Tron hasn't done anything of relevance the past few months and yet it's a problem? It's just regular whining about Tron. Yes, it is annoying to play against, but everyone has decks that hate to play against.
th33l3x wrote:
10 months ago
There are huge, obvious problems of power level compared to the rest of the field with the snow-core of Astrolabe, Uro, Coatl and Veil.
How in living hell is Coatl a problem? Especially on the level of Veil and maybe Astrolabe? As for Uro, we've been going on for literal years that fair decks need cards on the power level of the tools that linear/combo decks have been getting in order to compete, and when they get them (ie Uro, Astrolabe and Snake, along with Sanctuary) it suddenly is a problem? Uro isn't a problem. Snake definitely isn't. Astrolabe is borderline. Veil is an atrocious card and has to go above everything else, then we can talk whether the rest are even a problem.
th33l3x wrote:
10 months ago
Temur Urza's core is 4x Urza, 4x Coatl, 4x Goose, 4x Astrolabe, 3-4x Uro, +counterspells+0xmc artifacts. All in all it runs about 30 cards printed within the last year, in a format with a 10 year deep card pool. Similar deal with bant Snow. If you don't see a problem with that, you're beyond help.


Right, do that for every deck now for the past 5-6 years. Other than Ixalan block, every deck has gained cards from the past few sets, so that argument isn't even relevant. Jund has changed. Tron has changed. Every deck has gained a huge amount of cards to play.

This number is also heavily skewed by Modern Horizons, a set that by and large the community asked for by the way. Besides Hogaak and maybe Astrolabe, the set did what it was supposed to do. What the community asked them to do.

Also, people whining about Modern being a "rotating" format, are either oblivious to the format's history or haven't been paying attention.

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Post by drmarkb » 10 months ago

You need to do some maths....
If 30 cards are in the past year, and we get another year the same, that means 60/75 will be there this time next year. That is a worry, and nothing at all like the rate at which cards were added to Modern by any previous year.
Modern has always changed, but it has changed at a measurably slower rate. I suggest you do exactly what you suggested- but count up years (not blocks). How many cards has each year added- and the answer will be more in the post war phase of MTG than any other. The numbers added are greater than they have been. Every year adds some, even Ixalan, but we are adding more now.

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Post by th33l3x » 10 months ago

Tzoulis wrote:
10 months ago
th33l3x wrote:
10 months ago
I wish some people would think beyond that tough-guy mentality of "everybody else is a whining baby".
If you've been playing long enough and/or have been around these forums for years, then you'll see why that phrase is close to true. I mean, UW is favored against Tron, Tron hasn't done anything of relevance the past few months and yet it's a problem? It's just regular whining about Tron. Yes, it is annoying to play against, but everyone has decks that hate to play against.
th33l3x wrote:
10 months ago
There are huge, obvious problems of power level compared to the rest of the field with the snow-core of Astrolabe, Uro, Coatl and Veil.
How in living hell is Coatl a problem? Especially on the level of Veil and maybe Astrolabe? As for Uro, we've been going on for literal years that fair decks need cards on the power level of the tools that linear/combo decks have been getting in order to compete, and when they get them (ie Uro, Astrolabe and Snake, along with Sanctuary) it suddenly is a problem? Uro isn't a problem. Snake definitely isn't. Astrolabe is borderline. Veil is an atrocious card and has to go above everything else, then we can talk whether the rest are even a problem.
th33l3x wrote:
10 months ago
Temur Urza's core is 4x Urza, 4x Coatl, 4x Goose, 4x Astrolabe, 3-4x Uro, +counterspells+0xmc artifacts. All in all it runs about 30 cards printed within the last year, in a format with a 10 year deep card pool. Similar deal with bant Snow. If you don't see a problem with that, you're beyond help.


Right, do that for every deck now for the past 5-6 years. Other than Ixalan block, every deck has gained cards from the past few sets, so that argument isn't even relevant. Jund has changed. Tron has changed. Every deck has gained a huge amount of cards to play.

This number is also heavily skewed by Modern Horizons, a set that by and large the community asked for by the way. Besides Hogaak and maybe Astrolabe, the set did what it was supposed to do. What the community asked them to do.

Also, people whining about Modern being a "rotating" format, are either oblivious to the format's history or haven't been paying attention.

You are continuing your habit of taking stuff out of context. Example: Coatl isnt itself problematic, but it slots almost exclusively into the Astrolabe-Uro snow core, and in that context, it IS problematic.

No deck ever in the past 5-6 years has changed every 2nd card, and 2/3 nonland cards within a year except UGx Uro/Urza.

I don't understand where you're coming from with your reasoning. Is it simply for the sake of starting a conflict? because a lot of what you write is just removed from reality.
Last edited by th33l3x 10 months ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by pierreb » 10 months ago

Tzoulis wrote:
10 months ago
Right, do that for every deck now for the past 5-6 years. Other than Ixalan block, every deck has gained cards from the past few sets, so that argument isn't even relevant. Jund has changed. Tron has changed. Every deck has gained a huge amount of cards to play.
No.

*YOU* do the maths to provide a counterpoint that is more that mere posturing.

You could have said "look at these 5 other top decks. They also have 30 cards from the past year." Or "look at these 5 deck from 2018, they contained 30 cards from their past year." Except for extreme outliers like Eldrazi winter, I'm pretty sure (but won't claim as fact, like you did) that you will come up empty.

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Post by idSurge » 10 months ago

Tzoulis wrote:
10 months ago
Right, do that for every deck now for the past 5-6 years. Other than Ixalan block, every deck has gained cards from the past few sets, so that argument isn't even relevant. Jund has changed. Tron has changed. Every deck has gained a huge amount of cards to play.
Your going to need to quantify that.

If you think Snow is the baseline (as that was the example) nothing that I can think of is even remotely close on power, and RECENT power being added, outside of "oops" Eldrazi, and Hogaak.

Wonder why.
UR Control UR

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Post by th33l3x » 10 months ago

I'll do a little, very broad excursion on mtgtop8 from 2016 yearly meta games, because this period nicely illustrates the development from a broken format to a borderline perfect, healthy format, to the release of Modern Horizons and Modern's subsequent downfall:

2016, Eldrazi Aggro was the overall most-played deck at 10%. But it was actually pretty much half the format until April 4th 2016. That was in the context of Eldrazi Winter. Eye of Ugin was emergency-banned by April 4th.

After that, Infect and Dredge surge, until on January 9th 2017, Probe and Gravetroll are banned. By that time, people have figured out a way to make Eldrazi work in Eldrazi Tron and the probe ban leads to innovation in the Death's Shadow archetype: Jund Traverse Shadow, then Grixis Shadow. In 2017 Death's Shadow decks are at 10%, Eldrazi Aggro at 9%. Other than that, the meta is extremely diverse, with UW Control, GTron, Affinity, RDW, Valakut, Toolbox, Storm, Dredge and about 20 other archetypes being represented at 2-4%.

2018 sees the rise of Humans and UW Control, and the most diverse metagame modern has ever had. Humans are at 8% overall, UW Control, GTron and RDW at 6%, and a huge variety of archetypes at 2-4%.

In 2018, 0 cards are banned in modern, while Bloodbraid Elf and Jace, the Mind Sculptor are unbanned. Both cards are absorbed easily into a healthy format.

2018 was the high point of Modern. A ton of decks were playable, there was massive strategic diversity, the format got back two iconic cards.

On October 5th, 2018, Guilds of Ravnica and with it, Arclight Phoenix is released, spawning a new "best deck" in modern, UR Phoenix.

In January of 2019, Krark-Clan Ironworks is banned, not because of meta share, but because Wizards' data indicates its win rate is insanely high.

The meta is as close to perfect as one can imagine for 5 months. Izzet Phoenix is the best deck, but people (oddly, I'll admit) seem to be content with that because UR tempo decks haven't been a thing in modern for years and years.

Then, on June 14, 2019, what I'll call "The year of Broken, Idiotic Stuffs", begins. Modern Horizons is released, followed by Veil of Summer on July 12 out of Magic2020.

By August, Bridge from Below, Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis and Faithless Looting are banned. In the process, Phoenix decks die at the hands of Hogaak's degeneracy.

On September 4th, Throne of Eldraine with Oko, Thief of Crowns is released. Its an Oko-format from there. On January 13, 2020, Oko is banned, and on January 24, its replacement, Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath and Dryad of the Ilysian Grove are released in Theros Beyond Death

From there, the meta is dominated by Titan decks powered by Dryad and UGx decks powered by the known UGx Snow / UGx Urza core.

On April 24, Companions are released and immediately take over the format until they are nerfed on June 1st.

mtgtop8 shows a balanced overall meta for 2019 and 2020 (so far), but the reason for that is the format jumping from one ban/release of new busted cards to the next one, making the meta go back and forth between extremes. The average falsly indicates a balanced meta.

Paper magic is suspended for known reasons, but in the weeks since Companion nerf, snow decks make up 23% of decks, while RDW (Burn+Prowess) makes up 16%.

I think its pretty clear how messed up modern is. "The Year of Broken, Idiotic Stuffs" is not limited to Modern Horizons. Every set after it has been more or less equally messed up.

Anyway, the reason I did this quick write up is because people need to stop spewing weird, unfounded sentiments about the format's "health", how they view the player bases general mentality of being generally sentimental and butt-hurt, wether Modern has been a "rotating" format in the last year, etc etc.

The metagames of the past few years are ridiculously well documented. There's actually not that much room for interpretation. The problematic trends of the past year are glaringly obvious and indefensible. They'll have to be addressed.

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Post by cfusionpm » 10 months ago

pierreb wrote:
10 months ago
Tzoulis wrote:
10 months ago
Right, do that for every deck now for the past 5-6 years. Other than Ixalan block, every deck has gained cards from the past few sets, so that argument isn't even relevant. Jund has changed. Tron has changed. Every deck has gained a huge amount of cards to play.
No.

*YOU* do the maths to provide a counterpoint that is more that mere posturing.

You could have said "look at these 5 other top decks. They also have 30 cards from the past year." Or "look at these 5 deck from 2018, they contained 30 cards from their past year." Except for extreme outliers like Eldrazi winter, I'm pretty sure (but won't claim as fact, like you did) that you will come up empty.
I argued something similar not too long ago, providing the list of new cards influencing the format, as well as the number of influencing cards vs necessary bannings.

The conclusion was pretty clear, and aligns very much with the claims being made here: in less than half the time, we've had more than double the cards influence the format per set, and more than two and a half times as many bans, or six and a half times as many bans per set.

The "top decks" have radically shifted, as influenced by these new cards. Most decks today are often as much as half (or more) nonland cards from 2019+. The rate and intensity of influence from the last two years has been monumental and unparalleled.

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 10 months ago

Greeksis wrote:
10 months ago
So, I watched the Twin/Pod unban video series. All of the videos.
Evaros and Fpawlusz's conclusions are: "Twin would be a big problem if unbanned". I agree. And the Twin player made some really big mistakes and he didn't splash Green for veil of summer, which he regretted.
So, Twin would be really a problematic card, but it feels like Bant is more problematic as a deck. In other words, if Bant is fine, Twin is fine. But they are/would be both big problems for Modern. If Wizards aims for AA to be legal, it feels like they should unban Twin. But the moment AA is banned, if Twin is legal, it will be really problematic for the format.
So, the safe thing is to unban nothing, I think. And also ban Arcum's Astrolabe/veil of summer.
Another line would be: ban veil of summer, unban Splinter Twin.

About Pod, they also think it would be too good, but my opinion is that Pod was not build optimally here. Not at all. The all in Pod version with Coridor Monitor remains something to be tested. With this in mind, I can't speak for the deck too much.
I can get with that. I will admit that Twin and Pod seemed much better than I would have guessed. I would have said top 5-10 for both decks, but I'm sure now that they would be in the top 5 if unbanned now. I do also realize that this is just very minimal testing by 2 players only and like you said, different versions should also be tested.

But this is why I tell people here that there are many routes that WotC could take or could have taken. They can allow AA, Veil, and more to be legal and unban Twin/Pod. Or they could go the other route and ban each of them or leave them banned. I prefer the "unban/leave unbanned" motion because it seems like power creep is a real thing, if M21 is any indication. Each time there is a "Lurrus" printed and allowed to be played with for a bit, people are always going to bring up old cards that are much worse and should be unbanned. I'm one of those people.

They could have taken a different route with any of the situations that have occurred. Faithless Looting too good? They could have intentionally printed new toys for non Faithless Looting decks to level them up. Maybe better grave hate was not an option since we already have Cage, Relic, Spellbomb, Crypt, and more? They could have preemptively banned Arcum's Astrolabe when OUaT was banned, knowing it would be the next best thing. I could say so many other different things they could have done, but that's the point. They have shaped Modern to how it is today and people are forced to accept the routes that have been taken or migrate to a %$#% format - Standard, Pioneer, Historic, lol.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
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Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
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Post by cfusionpm » 10 months ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
10 months ago
Greeksis wrote:
10 months ago
So, I watched the Twin/Pod unban video series. All of the videos.
Evaros and Fpawlusz's conclusions are: "Twin would be a big problem if unbanned". I agree. And the Twin player made some really big mistakes and he didn't splash Green for veil of summer, which he regretted.
So, Twin would be really a problematic card, but it feels like Bant is more problematic as a deck. In other words, if Bant is fine, Twin is fine. But they are/would be both big problems for Modern. If Wizards aims for AA to be legal, it feels like they should unban Twin. But the moment AA is banned, if Twin is legal, it will be really problematic for the format.
So, the safe thing is to unban nothing, I think. And also ban Arcum's Astrolabe/veil of summer.
Another line would be: ban veil of summer, unban Splinter Twin.

About Pod, they also think it would be too good, but my opinion is that Pod was not build optimally here. Not at all. The all in Pod version with Coridor Monitor remains something to be tested. With this in mind, I can't speak for the deck too much.
I can get with that. I will admit that Twin and Pod seemed much better than I would have guessed. I would have said top 5-10 for both decks, but I'm sure now that they would be in the top 5 if unbanned now. I do also realize that this is just very minimal testing by 2 players only and like you said, different versions should also be tested.

But this is why I tell people here that there are many routes that WotC could take or could have taken. They can allow AA, Veil, and more to be legal and unban Twin/Pod. Or they could go the other route and ban each of them or leave them banned. I prefer the "unban/leave unbanned" motion because it seems like power creep is a real thing, if M21 is any indication. Each time there is a "Lurrus" printed and allowed to be played with for a bit, people are always going to bring up old cards that are much worse and should be unbanned. I'm one of those people.
There's also something to take into consideration that none of their test lists were dramatically altered or tuned to fight against it, or included targeted hate cards. Imagine what would happen if people started playing Torpor Orb, Spellskite, Rending Volley, Fry, Suppression Field, and any other number of hate cards that, in addition to shutting down Pod and/or Twin also have multiple uses elsewhere.

And as for their comments about "I can't advance my board for fear of Twin"........ yeah. THAT'S THE POINT! :crazy: :hmm:

Edit: Even just looking back over those cards listed.... Torpor Orb and Suppression Field sound like they would be NUTS today. With so many ETBs and activated abilities, why does no one play em? Or does the shift away from symmetrical effects mean people would rather have things like WAR walkers that shut off opponents without hurting your own stuff?

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 10 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
10 months ago
There's also something to take into consideration that none of their test lists were dramatically altered or tuned to fight against it, or included targeted hate cards. Imagine what would happen if people started playing Torpor Orb, Spellskite, Rending Volley, Fry, Suppression Field, and any other number of hate cards that, in addition to shutting down Pod and/or Twin also have multiple uses elsewhere.

And as for their comments about "I can't advance my board for fear of Twin"........ yeah. THAT'S THE POINT! :crazy: :hmm:

Edit: Even just looking back over those cards listed.... Torpor Orb and Suppression Field sound like they would be NUTS today. With so many ETBs and activated abilities, why does no one play em? Or does the shift away from symmetrical effects mean people would rather have things like WAR walkers that shut off opponents without hurting your own stuff?
There were a lot of variables here. I see why many people don't take these types of matches into consideration, but I think that they can be taken into consideration, just not be the end all, be all. There were several misplays as well, both from Evaros's side and Fpawlusz's side, which is to be expected. Some of these decks are decks that they've never played before and take years to master. When you are playing against Twin, you have to think about everything that they could possibly have, which is not that many different cards, but endless possibilities. For example, when he asked if he should -3 Chandra, Torch on the Exarch or the Mite, I was thinking "oh no." You have to do the Mite. The game is about every bit of damage and the Mite has evasion. He had blockers for the Exarch.

With Twin and Pod back in the meta, most definitely people will play things that do well against some combination of 1 or both. But I think that is some people's problems with the decks in the meta - that they will definitely have to sideboard, mainboard, and play differently if these decks are in the meta. Sideboards are already stretched thin, decks are already tuned machines lol, and people don't want to actively have to think more to play Modern. Modern is tough enough as it is. When I played Standard many years ago, I was able to do a chart and know almost anything that could happen in a game. But Modern is just so deep that a player like me who has played 50+ decks and up to 2-6 times per week STILL can't get a grasp on everything. That shows how deep this format is and even the 3-4 decks that I've played the most, I still haven't 100% mastered. Every time I play Amulet, I feel like I'm learning something, lol.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
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Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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cfusionpm
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Post by cfusionpm » 10 months ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
10 months ago
With Twin and Pod back in the meta, most definitely people will play things that do well against some combination of 1 or both. But I think that is some people's problems with the decks in the meta - that they will definitely have to sideboard, mainboard, and play differently if these decks are in the meta.
And I think this is a big factor in peoples' opinions: "I don't want to have to deal with Twin." And that seems both silly and selfish; especially considering the toxic and degenerate nonsense that has effectively ruled the format since its ban.

But we're at a point where "fixing Modern" isn't really an option anymore. Which is why I just want my %$#%$#% toys back. And if I have to sit here and hold up removal/counters for Primeval Titan, you (plural/collective) should have to hold up removal/counters for my Exarch.

And if Veil is a concern, ban Veil. Nothing good will ever come from that card.

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idSurge
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Post by idSurge » 10 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
10 months ago
Edit: Even just looking back over those cards listed.... Torpor Orb and Suppression Field sound like they would be NUTS today. With so many ETBs and activated abilities, why does no one play em? Or does the shift away from symmetrical effects mean people would rather have things like WAR walkers that shut off opponents without hurting your own stuff?
Cant play your own busted Uro, if you try and bring in cards that hate on it.

Magic design (development too) has failed, there really isnt much more to it than that.
UR Control UR

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FoodChainGoblins
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 10 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
10 months ago
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
10 months ago
With Twin and Pod back in the meta, most definitely people will play things that do well against some combination of 1 or both. But I think that is some people's problems with the decks in the meta - that they will definitely have to sideboard, mainboard, and play differently if these decks are in the meta.
And I think this is a big factor in peoples' opinions: "I don't want to have to deal with Twin." And that seems both silly and selfish; especially considering the toxic and degenerate nonsense that has effectively ruled the format since its ban.

But we're at a point where "fixing Modern" isn't really an option anymore. Which is why I just want my %$#%$#% toys back. And if I have to sit here and hold up removal/counters for Primeval Titan, you (plural/collective) should have to hold up removal/counters for my Exarch.

And if Veil is a concern, ban Veil. Nothing good will ever come from that card.
I can understand that. That's why I think there are different routes that WotC can take. I don't know which they will take. I personally wished I could play OUaT if Lurrus is legal (with the companion rule before the change). But I know this is a much more broken card than many others.

While I agree that Twin pushes out a lot of toxic stuff, it also pushes out stuff like RG Ponza and Titan decks in my opinion. I was finally able to play Titan after the ban without hedging super strongly for Twin or just conceding the matchup completely. I realize that decks have their Rock/Paper/Scissors, but having to constantly think about Twin at my LGS was tough at times. I still was super surprised when it was banned and thoroughly hurt.

If it comes down to Twin or Veil, trust me, you have my vote on %$#% canning Veil. That card is just way too polarizing and I don't think those are the types of cards we need in the meta - super polarizing cards. Yes, I know there are others like Boil, Choke, and more, but this hurts a whole 2 colors. That says something.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - MBA, UB Inverter
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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drmarkb
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Post by drmarkb » 10 months ago

If we just sidestep Tw$n, the week in Legacy articles on Goldfish have a running count of 2019 cards. That says something, and that format is more robust than Modern.

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Tzoulis
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Post by Tzoulis » 10 months ago

drmarkb wrote:
10 months ago
You need to do some maths....
If 30 cards are in the past year, and we get another year the same, that means 60/75 will be there this time next year. That is a worry, and nothing at all like the rate at which cards were added to Modern by any previous year.
Modern has always changed, but it has changed at a measurably slower rate. I suggest you do exactly what you suggested- but count up years (not blocks). How many cards has each year added- and the answer will be more in the post war phase of MTG than any other. The numbers added are greater than they have been. Every year adds some, even Ixalan, but we are adding more now.
If a deck got 30 newly printed cards in the last year, most of them from one set/block, then it's a new deck. Bant Snow certainly qualifies as such. It's also a fair deck that at the moment is -probably- the best deck in the format, and without concrete data sets, Modern is as it always has been. Relatively diverse, but linear dominated, with Veil and T3feri being utter mistakes of cards that need to go. We've known that these cards are problems since last year, but the fact that a NEW deck appeared isn't what's wrong with the format.

Someone reading these forums in passing would thing that Modern is dying and is in its worst place in its history. Its not, and Modern isn't dying, Magic in its whole is going through a crisis.

Again, counting cards per year is a bad way to look at it, because Modern Horizons - a set asked for for YEARS by the community- greatly inflates those numbers. This "30 cards in the last year" logic is incorrect for that very reason.
cfusionpm wrote:
10 months ago
I argued something similar not too long ago, providing the list of new cards influencing the format, as well as the number of influencing cards vs necessary bannings.

The conclusion was pretty clear, and aligns very much with the claims being made here: in less than half the time, we've had more than double the cards influence the format per set, and more than two and a half times as many bans, or six and a half times as many bans per set.
th33l3x wrote:
10 months ago
You are continuing your habit of taking stuff out of context. Example: Coatl isnt itself problematic, but it slots almost exclusively into the Astrolabe-Uro snow core, and in that context, it IS problematic.

No deck ever in the past 5-6 years has changed every 2nd card, and 2/3 nonland cards within a year except UGx Uro/Urza.

I don't understand where you're coming from with your reasoning. Is it simply for the sake of starting a conflict? because a lot of what you write is just removed from reality.


Let's leave aside the fact that Bant Snow Control became the best deck of the format after Uro got printed -before that we had Oko and I'm not even gonna count that period, I;m coming from the fact that each set has 6-8 cards that enter Modern on average. Some sets have more, some less. The fact that last year had Modern Horizons, again a set the community wanted and did what it set out to do, and outside of Hogaak -and Astrolabe, which is debatable how bad it is for the format- it is still the same cards per set on average.

Also, it's been said by me and Ktk MANY times, it's not Modern, it's %$#% Magic Design as a whole. Outside of stuff like Oko, Hogaak and Companions, the last ones being a worthy risk imo, Modern is as it always has been: Affected by every set release, and linear dominated. The complaint on these forums, especially the past few moths has been: "Modern sucks, it's a rotated format now". That's just wrong. Modern has always "rotated" and always "sucked".
cfusionpm wrote:
10 months ago
I argued something similar not too long ago, providing the list of new cards influencing the format, as well as the number of influencing cards vs necessary bannings.

The conclusion was pretty clear, and aligns very much with the claims being made here: in less than half the time, we've had more than double the cards influence the format per set, and more than two and a half times as many bans, or six and a half times as many bans per set.
Even though some of the cards linked are arguable, almost half of 2019 cards are from Modern Horizons. This was the point of the set. This set was asked for by the community and Wizards delivered. Saying that this is the "new norm" is wrong. Counting the number of cards added by MH into the Modern pool as something to be expected is also wrong. A set designed for Modern will of course shake up the format far more than a regular set, if it didn't you'd (royal "you") be here whining that the set was a failure because it didn't affect Modern.
idSurge wrote:
10 months ago
Your going to need to quantify that.

If you think Snow is the baseline (as that was the example) nothing that I can think of is even remotely close on power, and RECENT power being added, outside of "oops" Eldrazi, and Hogaak.

Wonder why.
pierreb wrote:
10 months ago
No.

*YOU* do the maths to provide a counterpoint that is more that mere posturing.

You could have said "look at these 5 other top decks. They also have 30 cards from the past year." Or "look at these 5 deck from 2018, they contained 30 cards from their past year." Except for extreme outliers like Eldrazi winter, I'm pretty sure (but won't claim as fact, like you did) that you will come up empty.
The math has been done numerous times. CFP and others have done them. It's around the same number of cards. When people start including Modern Horizons, is when the problems start. You can't include MH and say: "See?! More and more cards have been entering Modern, that's why it sucks!"

First, MH isn't a yearly set or even a bi-yearly (we don't know that yet). Secondly, what did you or anyone else expect? Of course a set like that, whose goal was to bypass Standard and inject cards directly into Modern, would change Modern...


Snow isn't the baseline because it's a new deck, so saying that it plays 30 cards from the last year is wrong. Phoenix played around 20-25 cards from the previous year, including Phoenix itself, especially post Modern Horizons. Likewise with Humans and Spirits. Hell, Miracles was the same during the summer of 2018 (15-20 new cards). So, I fail to see the problem when a new deck is build around cards printed mostly in the last year.

Anyway, I went and created a list which is by no means exhaustive, but I assume it can help with the discussion.
Spoiler
Show
BFZ (10/2015):

Conduit of Ruin
Endless One
Oblivion Sower
Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Drowner of Hope
Eldrazi Skyspawner
Anticipate
Part the Waterveil
Wasteland Strangler
Ob Nixilis Reignited
Painful Truths
Zulaport Cutthroat
Crumble to Dust
Nissa's Renewal(?)
Catacomb Sifter(?)
Bring to Light
Cinder Glade
Lumbering Falls
Prarie Stream
Shambling Vent
Smoldering Marsh
Sanctum of Ugin

OGW (01/2016)
Natural State
Oath of Nissa
Wandering Fumarole
Sea Gate Wreckage
Hissing Quaqmire
Endbringer
Matter Reshapper
Reality Smasher
Spatial Contortion
Thought-Knot Seer
Warping Wail
Eldrazi Displacer
Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
Eldrazi Obligator
Kozilek's Return
Reckless Bushwaker
World Breaker

SOI (04/2016)

Always Watching (?)
Archangel Avacyn
Bygone Bishop (?)
Declaration in Stone
Eerie Interlude
Gryff's Boon
Thalia's Lieutenant
Thraben Inspector
Manic Scribe
Rattlechanins
Thing in the Ice
Tireless Tracker
Traverse the Ulvenwald
Anguished Unmaking
Nahiri, the Harbinger
Prized Amalgam
Westvale Abbey

EMN (07/2016)

Elder Deep-Fiend(?)
Emrakul, the Promised End
Eternal Scourge
Blessed Alliance
Selfless Spirit
Thalia, Heretic Cathar
Mausoleum Wanderer
Nebelgast Herald
Collective Brutality
Liliana, the Last Hope
Bedlam Reveler
Eldritch Evolution
Grim Flayer
Spell QUeller
Geier Reach Sanitarium
Hanweir Battlements

KLD (09/2016)

cataclysmic Gearhulk
Ceremonius Rejection
Glimmer of Genious
Padeem, Consul of Innovation
Paradoxical Outcome(?)
Torrential Gearhulk
Lost Legacy
Cathartic Reunion
Chandra, Torch of Defianace
Kambal, Consul of Allocation
Saheeli Rai
Aetherflux Reservioir(?)
Bomat Courier
Smuggler's Copter
Botanical Sanctum
Concealed Courtyard
Inspiring Vantage
Spirebluff Canal
Inventor's Fair

AER (01/2017)

Felidar Guardian
Sram, Senior Edificer
Baral Chief of Compliance
Disallow
Metalic Rebuke
Whir of Invention
Battle at the Bridge
Fatal Push
Gifted Aetherborne (?)
Herald of Anguish (?)
Namam Renegade
Hidden Stockpile
Renegade Rallier
Rogue Refiner (?)
Winding Constrictor (?)
Hope of Ghirapur
Metalic Mimic
Paradox Engine (?)
Scrap Trawler
Walking Ballista
Spire of Industry

AKH (04/2017)

Cast Out
Gideon of the Trials
Vizier of Remedies
As Foretold
Curator of Mysteries
Hieroglyphic Illumination
Archfiend of Ifnir
Faith of the Devoted (?)
By Force (?)
Glorybringer
Hazoret the Fervent
Soul-Scar Mage
Sweltering Suns
Dissenter's Deliverance
Manglehorn (?)
Rhonas the Indomitable (?)
Nissa, Steward of Elements
Insult//Injury
Canyon Slough
Fetid Pools
Irrigated Farmlands
Sheltered Thicket

HOU (07/2017)

Overwhelming Splendor (?)
Solemnity (?)
Nimble Obstructionist
Striped Riverwinder
Bontu's Last Reckoning
Liliana's Defeat (?)
Abrade
Crash Through
Hour of Promise
Ramunap Excavator
Claim//Fame
Hollow One
Ramunap Ruins (?)
Scavenger Grounds
Shefet Dunes (?)

XLN (09/2017)

Kinjali Sunwing (?)
Legion's Landing (?)
Settle the Wreckage
Tocatlu Honor Guard
Chart a Course
Dive Down
Entrancing Melody (?)
Opt
Search for Azcanta
Arguel's Blood Fast (?)
Kitesail Freebooter
Vraska's Contempt (?)
Rampaging Ferocidon (?)
Carnage Tyrant (?)
Glowing Rites of Itlimoc
Kumena's Speaker
Shaper's Sanctuary
Sorcerous Spyglass

RIX (01/2018)

Curious Obsession
Blood Sun (?)
Dire Fleet Daredevil
Deeproot Elite
Thrashing Brontodon
Wayward Swordtooth
Merfolk Mistbinder

DOM (04/2018)

Karn, Scion of Urza
Lyra Dawnbringer
Shalai, Voice of Plenty
Blink of an Eye (?)
Merfolk Trickster
Cast Down
Goblin Chainwhirler
Squee, the Immortal (?)
Broken Bond (?)
Teferi Hero of Dominaria
Damping Sphere
Mox Amber
Zhalfirin Void (?)

M19 (07/2018)

Sai, Master Thopterist
Supreme Phantom
Stitcher's Supplier
Alpine Moon
Goblin Trashmaster
Elvish Clancaller
Vivien Reid
Nicol Bolas, the Ravager (?)

GRN (10/2018)

Mission Briefing
Creeping Chill
Plaguecrafter (?)
Arclight Phoenix
Experimental Frenzy
Lava Coil (?)
Legion Warboss (?)
Runaway Steam-Kin
Beast Whisperer
Pelt Collector
Assassin's Trophy
Crackling Drake
Deafening Clarion
Knight of Autumn
Ral, Izzet Viceroy
Swiftblade Vindicator
Unmoored Ego
Vraska, Golgari Queen

RNA (01/2019)

Benthic Biomancer (?)
Pteramander
Sphinx of Foresight (?)
Electrodominence
Wilderness Reclamation
Absorb
Bedevil
Cindervines
Deputy of Detentions
Growth Spiral
Hydroid Krasis (?)
Judith, the Scourge Diva (?)
Kaya, Orzhov usurper
Lavinia, Azorius Renegade (?)
Prime Speaker Vannifar
Rhythm of the Wld (?)

WAR (05/2019)

Karn, the Great Creator
Ugin, the Ineffable
Narset, Parter of Veils
Davriel, Rogue Shadowmage
Finale of Promise
Ilharg, the Raze-Boar
Arboreal Grazer
Dovin's Veto
Neoform
Nicol Bolas, Dragon God
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Oath of Kaya
Tamiyo, Collector of Tales (?)
Teferi, Time Reveler (%$#% You)
Time Wipe (?)
Tolsimir, Friend to Wolves (?)
Ashiok, Dream Render
Dovin, Hand of Control (?)
Saheeli, Sublime Artificer
Blast Zone

M20 (07/2019)

Aether Gust
Spectral Sailor (?)
Chandra, Awakened Inferno (?)
Fry
Elvish Reclaimer
Leyline of Abundance
Veil of Summer (%$#% You)
Vivien, Arkbow Ranger (?)
Colossus Hammer
Golos, Tireless Pilgrim (?)
Lotus Field (?)

MH1 (06/2019)

Ephemerate
Giver of Runes
Ranger-Captain of Eos
Winds of Abandon
Archmage's Charm
Fact or Fiction (?)
Force of Negation
Urza, Lord High Artificer
Watcher for Tomorrow
Dead of Winter
plague Engineer
Yawgmoth, Thran Physician
Aria of Flame
Goblin Engineer
Goblin Matron
Lava Dart
Pashalik Mons (?)
Pillage
Seasoned Pyromancer
Shenanigans
Collector Oophe
Crashing Footfalls
Force of Vigor
Hexdrinker
Scale Up
Eladamri's Call
Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
Ice-Fang Coatl
Kaya's Guile
Kess, Dissident Mage (?)
Lightning Skelemental (?)
Munitions Expert
Soulherder
Unsettled Mariner
Wrenn and Six
Altar of Dementia
Arcum's Astrolabe
Barren Moor
Fiery Islet
Forgotten Cave
Nurturing Peatland
Prismatic Vista
Silent Clearing
Sunbaked Canyon
Tranquil Thicket
Waterlogged Grove
Flusterstorm


ELD (10/2019)

All That Glitters
Charming Prince
Brazen Borrower
Emry, Lurker of the Loch
Fae of Wishes (?)
Into the Story (?)
Merfolk Secretkeeper
Mystical Dispute
Witching Well
Murderous Rider
Rankle, Master of Pranks (?)
Bonecrush Giant
Embercleave (?)
Fires of Invention (?)
Merchant of the Vale
Gilded Goose
Once Upon a Time
Questing beast (?)
Drown in the Loch
Oko, Thief of Crowns
The Royal Scions
Gingerbrute
Stonecoil Serpent (?)
Castle Garenbrig
Castle Locthwain
Castle Vantress
Mystic Sanctuary

THB (01/2020)

Elspeth, Sun's Nemesis (?)
Heliod, Sun-Crowned
Heliond's Intervention (?)
Omen of the Sea
Thassa's Oracle
Ox of Agonas
Underworld Breach
Dryad of the Ilysian Grove
Klothys, God of Destiny
Kroxa, Titan of Hunger
Kunoros, Hound of Athreos
Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
Shadowspear (?)
Soul-Guide Lantern

IKO (04/2020)

Drannith Magistrate (?)
Luminous Broodmoth (?)
Of One Mind (?)
Lukka, Coppercoat Outcast (?)
Yidaro, Wandering Monster (?)
General Kudro of Drannith
Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy (?)
Narset of the Ancient Way (?)
Sprite Dragon
Vadrok, Apex of Thunder (?)
Winota, Joiner of Forces (?)
Fiend Artisan (?)
Gyruda, Doom of the Depths (?)
Jegantha, the Wellspring
Kaheera, the Orphanguard (?)
Lurrus of the Dream-Den
Obosh, the Preypiercer
Yorion, Sky Nomad
Zirda, the Dawnwaker (?)
Indatha Triome (?)
Ketria Triome (?)
Raugrin Triome (?)
Savai Triome (?)
Zagot Triome (?)
TLDR: Cards with "(?)" next to them are either meme decks or was tested and was abandoned or they've been played in a list that's come to my attention, but it's too soon to tell if they are here to stay,
DISCLAIMER: The benefit of older sets is that they've been around far longer than newer sets, therefore they had more chances to be played or slot into decks. They also had more chances to be played and then leave the meta altogether (Remember Bant/Gruul Eldrazi?

Now for the number crunching, I'm doing one with everything and one without the cards with "(?)".
Spoiler
Show
Cards Per Set Cards Per Year
image.png
Feel free to add/remove cards, but I think that's a more or less good starting point. Poke me if you want my Spreadsheet and/or .txt files
Last edited by Tzoulis 10 months ago, edited 1 time in total.

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