[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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drmarkb
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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

pierreb wrote:
1 year ago
drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
Seems to me the fact that they cast it before landing Ugin meant it was not cryptic command, more like silence?
Veil is a modal spell. Choose one or more:
- Cryptic command
- Silence.
Can't quite tap the dudes or bounce the permanent (which always seemed to be the mode I feared most), so more dismiss, but either way the only issue here is with the first part. Silence, even a modal one is fine. It is the draw card part people have issues with. Although as I have said elsewhere, the card just brings blue and black down to the level of white red levels of significant interaction in modern- none.

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago

My problem is Tron and Dredge and all sorts of decks which have no business getting access to counterspells get to play preemptive Cryptic Command against me for 1 mana. I had a match the other day against Tron; it's several turns in, I had slowed them down, answered several things, had Uro in play, and a hand of Path, Stroke, and Cryptic, but not enough to cast all of them. They start their turn, cast Veil of Summer, windmill slam Ugin, and -3. I just conceded the match in disgust. :sick:
Seems to me the fact that they cast it before landing Ugin meant it was not cryptic command, more like silence? They would not have drawn a card. Have you considered that the thing that has no business existing is a deck that can cast Ugin and Karn way before time? Ditto dredge.
Dredge would be a 100% fine deck, if not for Chill.
Tron, well I am open in my hate for Tron, but without the London Mulligan, I would be fine with Tron too.

Veil, has no business existing.
Tron should have been gone at the start, frankly. The format can't handle the existence of 7 mana t3 without wasteland. It is a perennial problem waiting for the next good green selection card.
Dredge is problematic because they keep making cards you can get from the bin or have an effect when they go. Chill is one, but more will come. There is always a new Escape or Chill or whatever.
The format would be better without them, just like Veil. A one mana cryptic command against certain colours from the board vs a deck that gets 7 mana t3 and drops Karn in a format with rubbish landkill and does it main deck, with, at times Once Opon Time, Stirrings etc. and whatever new broken green stuff is around the corner.
Neither archetype is an issue in Legacy, ramp of any variety has Wastelands to deal with and t1 bloodmoons backed by fast clocks, and dredge, whilst a strong deck, has protectable Leylines, searchable tabernacles, and a wide selection of odd cards that can just shut it down long enough. In modern the tools don't exist or if they do they can't be searched for easily.

People accept Tron, well some do, but if it were printed today the lands would be banned. Tron in particular does not have the police role that Cloudpost has in Legacy where Ullamogs go over the top of Miracles.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
Although as I have said elsewhere, the card just brings blue and black down to the level of white red levels of significant interaction in modern- none.
At what point before the printing of Urza and Uro and other busted 2019/20 cards, were blue or black interactive decks ever a "problem" that needed to be dealt with? Why did green ever "need" this card? Blue has been trash for YEARS and Thoughtseize decks were supposed to fill the void of blue being terrible by helping police the linear degeneracy. Almost all linear degenerate decks run green, and now have access to a fast-pass, get-out-of-jail-free card to do whatever they want. Veil is an atrocious insult to pretty much every format it remains legal in.
Aazadan wrote:
1 year ago
I brought that up when evaluating it earlier, a 4 and 2 combined to make 6 is different from just 6. Because it also gets you to 6 in the first place.

In the Modern format I'm watching though as I see people stream? I'm seeing a lot of people getting to 6 mana. It's a high powered and lopsided format for sure, but the games are not ending on turn 3 or 4 for the most part. Anyways, I never said it was the best card in the format or anything, just evaluating within the context of other viable or recently viable (as the 2019 and on meta has been... bad) high mana plays. 5 mana Teferi, Snap+Cryptic, and Torrential Gearhulk being 3 of those.
Looking at the top creatures and top spells for Modern, I see an interesting trend with regards to 6+ mana cards:

Creatures 6 or more:
Wurmcoil Engine
Primevil Titan
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Planeswalkers 6 or more:
Karn Liberated
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Non-PW Spells that cost 6 or more:
All is Dust

Again, if you aren't cheating costs or cheating lands, nobody is playing 6 mana spells.

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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

Using Tron to cite that only their high mana cards are viable is a somewhat disingenuous argument. People routinely drop 7 mana in a single turn to Uro and escape it, they also drop Primeval Titans, some decks are still playing 5 mana Teferi which is at sorcery speed (though to be fair, you do get 2 of that mana back), and so on. You wouldn't play 4 6 drops of course, but plenty of decks have over the past year or two been able to manage 1 or 2 6's. Whether this is one of the ones you would want or not is a different question.

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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

In other news, I'm a huge fan of Goblin Wizardry. Not convinced it's playable, it probably isn't to be honest but it seems like a fun card.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Aazadan wrote:
1 year ago
In other news, I'm a huge fan of Goblin Wizardry. Not convinced it's playable, it probably isn't to be honest but it seems like a fun card.
Something for a Prowess deck to bring in against grindy opponents?
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Post by th33l3x » 1 year ago

I'm sick of the bone of playing against Uro. It doesn't even really matter wether I win or lose. It's just such a drag. It's similarly dumb across archetypes too. Bant Snow Control/Stoneblade, Temur Urza, Temur Scapeshift. It's all a wash.

Slam Uro t3 is the play every game because nobody cares if it gets countered or discarded. Atempt to cast Uro the next turn, because again, it's inconsequential wether you interact with it or not. You can't race Uro because it gains life and ramps them. Sure you can go over the top of Uro and counter it every time it is cast. But its´'s just insanely stupid trying to keep the same card down again and again and again. All those decks, they can basically do whatever, and just try for Uro whenever they feel like it. if it doesn't work? Great, 0-for1 in their favour.

Greedy mana cost? inconsequential because of Arcum's Astrolabe. No Uro ever was uncastable because of the lack of colors. No matter if its straight UG or a 4c pile that casts Cryptic Command into Wrenn and Six into Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath.

Such an unbalanced, overpowered card. Escape should have been 7+ on Uro. So you actually have to work to escape it. 5 cards in a deck with fetches and cantrips is often 1 turn cycle, and never more than 2. Uro decks can almost always escape Uro 2 times in a row without having to artificially stock their GY.

Its just all so disgusting. All the cards in those decks are out of 2-3 editions too: Astrolabe, Urza, Coatl, Uro, Emry, Goose. (Force, Rebuke, Veil) All 2019-2020 insane trash design.

I will echo somebody above me: how everybody isn't verbally burning down WotC HQ is beyond me. And great, now they are printing an ok-powered set that for once doesn't turn modern on its head. That doesn't erase all the crazy stuff that's already in the format.

I sold out of my 15 year old collection in Oko times. We had a discussion on here wether that was a wise move. But after Hogaak and Oko, I had come to the conclusion that things weren't going to get better. And they didnt.

Since then, Astrolabe Uro and Companions have, alternatingly or together, been destroying the format. Companions are gone, and wups, what's the best deck? Uro Uro Uro.

Edit: Gruul Ramp as the big antidote to UGx Uro? Seasoned Pyromancer, Wrenn, Klothys, all less than a year old and the cards that make the deck good. What a surprise.

Modern used to be a gradually evolving format. People actually wrote about "metagame cycles", how things were shifting back and forth, overcompensation for this and for that, etc etc. Now? A few select decks, all powered by very new cards with very few exceptions, are much stronger than older decks. There's a little sub-metagame at the top of decks built out of new cards. and then there's everything else.
Last edited by th33l3x 1 year ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

th33l3x wrote:
1 year ago
I will echo somebody above me: how everybody isn't verbally burning down WotC HQ is beyond me. And great, now they are printing an ok-powered set that for once doesn't turn modern on its head. That doesn't erase all the crazy stuff that's already in the format.
They have been.

However, when it was Covid then BLM taking (rightfully) all the attention, its a bit hard to even care about how flawed Uro is.
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Post by Ym1r » 1 year ago

Hey look, fair decks in modern finally have the tools to compete and now fair decks is the problem!
People have been arguing that modern is, essentially a rotating format because things change with every set or metagame shift.
I would argue that at this point, Modern is a rotating complain. Whatever is the best deck it is a cause for complain about modern (and modern specifically). Doesn't matter if it is artifact decks, tron variants, fair decks, combo decks, GY decks, if it's the best deck people will hate it.
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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

There is nothing fair, about Uro. :)

Its a card which checks all the boxes.

1. Hits every applicable axis of value. Cards, Life, Lands.
2. Does not care about removal on the first cast, while generating instant value if it is not countered.
3. If countered, is a recurring threat, which against generates value.
4. If able to attack, generates that value on all 3 axis again.

Its completely, comically, busted and the 'restrictions' within a Modern context (Astrolabe, Fetch/Cantrip Fuel) are laughable.

That said, the definitions for 'fair' are...nonexistant or not consistent, so its a fools errand to run down that path of what is or is not fair.

I almost bought in again on MTGO, I think Modern right now is not any worse than any other of the high powered formats.
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Post by th33l3x » 1 year ago

I know it's just a rant, but most-played cards are also ridiculous. Mystic Sanctuary is played in more decks than Basic Plains. In fact, of the top 10 lands, 0 are white, neither fetchlands nor shocklands nor basics.

Disregarding Lurrus, the top played creatures are Uro at #1 and Coatl at #2.

Veil is the #2 most played overall card at 40% of decks (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!), Astrolabe is #10.

The constellation of Uro, Astrolabe and Coatl (and Veil in the side) needs to be broken up. Unless they go completely bonkers in coming sets, nothing will ever seriously compete with that core.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

I have to admit to my unrelenting bias, but within the context of the format, I continue to fail to see the issue with Sanctuary.
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Post by th33l3x » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
I have to admit to my unrelenting bias, but within the context of the format, I continue to fail to see the issue with Sanctuary.
Lol I am biased too, am playing it myself a lot (though in none of the top decks).

I think Sanctuary gets a lot of undeserved flak because it's in every UGx deck, be that Urza, UG Uro, Bant Snow etc.

It incidentally synergizes really well with Uro and Coatl, and the whole strategy those cards enforce, and those decks can also play/fetch as many islands as they want because of Arcum's Astrolabe which means Sanctuary is turned on 100% of the time.

So yea, it probably boils down to being Astrolabe's "fault" because that card makes enabling Sanctuary so trivial.

I don't think Sanctuary is an inherently flawed card. It just happens to slot perfectly into the best deck/super archetype in the format in UGx Uro.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Ym1r wrote:
1 year ago
Hey look, fair decks in modern finally have the tools to compete and now fair decks is the problem!
People have been arguing that modern is, essentially a rotating format because things change with every set or metagame shift.
I would argue that at this point, Modern is a rotating complain. Whatever is the best deck it is a cause for complain about modern (and modern specifically). Doesn't matter if it is artifact decks, tron variants, fair decks, combo decks, GY decks, if it's the best deck people will hate it.
The bigger issue is really Astrolabe. I'd been janking around with a BW Aristocrats deck (currently 5-0 in matches, 10-2 in games) and went up against two different 4c Snow decks. My favorite instance was watching them cast Anger of the Gods off of Island, Breeding Pool, Mystic Sanctuary. But if they don't have the Astrolabe, their terrible wonky mana makes them fold to themselves. Maybe it was their unfamiliarity with the deck and they didn't mulligan aggressively enough? But who keeps hands with basics and no Astrolabe with greedy spells? They lost that match. As did another Temur/4C Snow deck later on, and GDS.

Edit: Oh, I did lose a match. I lost to Neobrand on turn 1 and outright conceded the match on the spot. I don't feel the need to waste my time with "mulligan to thoughtseize" style games.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

th33l3x wrote:
1 year ago
So yea, it probably boils down to being Astrolabe's "fault" because that card makes enabling Sanctuary so trivial.
If there is a single card that should go, its Astrolabe. It does a whole lot in the meta.
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
th33l3x wrote:
1 year ago
So yea, it probably boils down to being Astrolabe's "fault" because that card makes enabling Sanctuary so trivial.
If there is a single card that should go, its Astrolabe. It does a whole lot in the meta.
But even then, if the decks *don't* have Astrolabe, they're terrible, or need to aggressively mulligan. Having been on the other side of things after playing Snow for a while (and playing conservative 60-card, non-4C versions), it seems like the greedy ones get punished as much as they get rewarded. Is it a terrible card with poor design? Sure. But so is nearly everything of the past 2 years. Banning it doesn't solve the multitude of other problems.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Banning it likely 'fixes' the power level of Uro and Snake? If it forces people into actual respectable mana bases, and allows Moon to be at least somewhat (I know we both know the power of Moon) playable?

Like I know what your saying, but Astrolabe is a perfectly fine step one ban.
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Post by Ym1r » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Banning it likely 'fixes' the power level of Uro and Snake? If it forces people into actual respectable mana bases, and allows Moon to be at least somewhat (I know we both know the power of Moon) playable?

Like I know what your saying, but Astrolabe is a perfectly fine step one ban.
Blood Moon is pretty playable considering the 2nd most played deck is Gruul Midrange and that often runs 3-4 copies of Blood Moon, even in a meta where the most popular deck is an Astrolabe deck. It would be even more powerful with an Astrolabe banning.

Also, I think it is a hyperbole saying that Snow decks will be "terrible" without Astrolabe. They would be weaker because they can't play Snakes basically any more (or maybe they can and not care about early deathtouch?) and they would lean either more heavily in the control plan or more heavily on the SFM plan.
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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Thats the thing, I'm not sure (I dont play it) but it feels like they could be brought more into balance with Astrolabe out.
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Ym1r wrote:
1 year ago
Also, I think it is a hyperbole saying that Snow decks will be "terrible" without Astrolabe. They would be weaker because they can't play Snakes basically any more (or maybe they can and not care about early deathtouch?) and they would lean either more heavily in the control plan or more heavily on the SFM plan.
Maybe "terrible" isn't the right word, but they are INCREDIBLY clunky. I exclusively played Bant Snow (without Trashforge Mystic) for several months, and there is a constant balance between trying to fetch basics (snow for Snakes/Labes) and making my cards castable (,, , , , , , ). It makes for some clunky and awkward hands that CAN be pulled back, but you have to actively prioritize certain colors and hope to get lucky you can cast your spells well. Hands without Astrolabe (or God forbid, you fetched a bunch of basics and your Labes get destroyed) get real bad real fast.

Without Labe, it simply can't manage Snakes or reliably cast Uro. And without those, it loses vital stabilizing engines and win conditions. I don't think the deck continues to exist without Astrolabe. I think it would just go back to being bad UW control that we've had the last few years, with different flavors picked up based on preference, but none of them being all that good, unless the meta gets so warped that maindeck RIP propels it up like it had in the past.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

It wasnt main RIP that made UW playable.

It was meta's which where soft to either Terminus, or T3f + FoN + Jace, being enough to take over the game.
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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Aazadan wrote:
1 year ago
In other news, I'm a huge fan of Goblin Wizardry. Not convinced it's playable, it probably isn't to be honest but it seems like a fun card.
Something for a Prowess deck to bring in against grindy opponents?
Something like that. Instant speed threats, two of them so it's semi removal/blocker resistant, They can also function as blockers in a pinch. The card seems reasonable, I've been known to play Carrion Call in Infect before (and it even works well), so I think a R/X spell deck could play this. But, such a spell deck has far more viable card options than Infect does so it could still easily not make the cut.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
It wasnt main RIP that made UW playable.

It was meta's which where soft to either Terminus, or T3f + FoN + Jace, being enough to take over the game.
I mean, it was peak Dredge/Phoenix era. So RIP + Terminus was GG against those.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

I saw a lot of games where UW also smashed Tron however. There is a strong enough core foot UW.

It's just outclassed by Snow right now.
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
I saw a lot of games where UW also smashed Tron however. There is a strong enough core foot UW.

It's just outclassed by Snow right now.
Not even 4 Field of Ruin can keep up with London Mulligan Tron. Especially on the draw.

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