[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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Post by idSurge » 10 months ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
10 months ago

To be fair, I don't think that everyone knew what would happen. I felt like Kiki was a solid replacement and I thought my Amulet deck was dead with Summer Bloom banned. Azusa, Lost but Seeking is so much slower. I was seriously pissed at the time. :fuming:

But then I didn't realize I'd get OUaT for a bit, Field of the Dead, and Dryad of Ilysian Grove, lol.
You didnt need OUaT, Field, or Dryad.

Amulet was always playable, the ban against it changed next to nothing. Amulet players never lost their deck, not even for a day.
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Post by The Fluff » 10 months ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
10 months ago
metalmusic_4 wrote:
10 months ago
Pod is a fair comparison on the surface. The difference is that the pod deck remained competitive. The original combo pod decks were replaced near the end with value pod slamming seige rhinos and resto Angels just using pod as a value engine and hunting up silver bullet hate cards when needed. Once pod was banned the deck went through many transitions and deck names, counters company is probably the best well known version in that decks evolution post pod ban.

The twin announcement referencing what would a twin player do with there peices if twin was banned is evidence of the expectation that twin decks would follow a similar evolution, but they were wrong.
To be fair, I don't think that everyone knew what would happen. I felt like Kiki was a solid replacement and I thought my Amulet deck was dead with Summer Bloom banned. Azusa, Lost but Seeking is so much slower. I was seriously pissed at the time. :fuming:

But then I didn't realize I'd get OUaT for a bit, Field of the Dead, and Dryad of Ilysian Grove, lol.
I remember early post-ban versions of Amulet were using Sakura-Tribe Scout.

fast forward into the future, the deck eventually got many upgrades to stay competitive. :)

edit: and thankfully, wotc printed Ashiok to help keep the deck under control.
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Post by idSurge » 10 months ago

I lost to the deck the day it was 'banned'. It did not need Bloom. Thats the honest to god truth lol.

Regardless, its not a relevant line of discussion. Some decks die, others live on. A poor comparison by Simto does not mean we need to rehash discussions that have lasted 4 years, and that within the present climate of the game, are farcical.

The game itself is on thin ice, because the stewards of the games design, have decided to ignore rules they have understood to be true for decades.

Nothing else matters.

So lets see how the Ban/'Companion Comment' goes tomorrow, before we flip out over something that is an irrelevant pass time, in the grand scheme of things, while America burns.
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Post by The Fluff » 10 months ago

I lost to the deck the day it was 'banned'. It did not need Bloom. Thats the honest to god truth lol.
as I remember someone said in that thread "your deck is not competitive, your deck is broken" - referring to Amulet with Bloom still not banned.
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And on another thing.

Core 2021 is so near now. Looking forward to the previews. :)
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Post by idSurge » 10 months ago

Yeah, some previews are very much desired right now. Cannot wait to see if things get shaken up.

And 100% you are right, Bloom version was not competitive, it was busted. Post Bloom, it was still competitive, but people didnt see that, they just saw that their completely busted lines of play (that would be right at home in Standard right now) were not quite as busted, so it must not be 'good enough' anymore.

It was, it is.
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 10 months ago

metalmusic_4 wrote:
10 months ago
Sure, I agree with that. Nobody can predict the future perfectly. The announcement even gave some ideas of other decks to try or use kiki-jiki so they seem to have fully expected the deck to exist in some weakened form, like pod did, like jund did or amulet went on to do.

However the twin ban followed in the footsteps of the wild nacatl zoo ban instead and killed the deck entirly. In the wild nacatl UNBAN announcement they acknowledged that its ban did not cause the development they wanted, it killed the deck entirely and therefore they decided to unban it.

And thinking about it now, I remember the nacatl ban as being very contentious too. Some thought it too powerful and invalidated many other 1 drops while others fiercely stated it as a vanilla 3/3 and had no business on the ban list. BBE might qualify as another controversial ban, anyway there have been a few of these in the past.
I was fiercely against that ban as well. Wild Nacatl invalidates other 1 drop creatures? Lightning Bolt has always invalidated every other burn spell and that is played in a lot more decks than some Cat. Also it didn't invalidate Affinity creatures at all, nor Burn. Those versions of Aggro remained viable for many years, even until today for Burn and dying with the Mox Opal ban for Affinity.
idSurge wrote:
10 months ago
You didnt need OUaT, Field, or Dryad.

Amulet was always playable, the ban against it changed next to nothing. Amulet players never lost their deck, not even for a day.
I believe I did. Amulet was always playable, but I'd rather play other decks if they win more often. I believe that Amulet did need those upgrades to keep up with a Modern that has gotten stronger with power creep.

That may be selfish, but I don't feel like playing Amulet at Tier 3.
Greeksis wrote:
10 months ago
Well, I know several Pod players who never got to find the similar playstyle experience and got their deck banned also. At least, in the case of Twin, there was Kiki Jiki as a replacement, even if it was bad. They playstyle was there. If you are the Twin kind of player and don't mind losing(some or a lot, I am not sure), the playstyle exists.

Pod's playstyle isn't there. Coco is not the same, as it forbids you to play with big bombs.
I can't argue that the play styles are not the same, but they are similar. Coco just had to change to a combo oriented deck that could be disrupted a lot easier, but consistently combo around turns 3 and 4 if no disruption. They had to give up the mid game, which is important to remember.
The Fluff wrote:
10 months ago
I remember early post-ban versions of Amulet were using Sakura-Tribe Scout.

fast forward into the future, the deck eventually got many upgrades to stay competitive. :)

edit: and thankfully, wotc printed Ashiok to help keep the deck under control.
Yeah, I HAAATED, just hated that Sakura-Tribe Scout for so long. But it stuck with the deck, as it's the best option (although right now that is Arboreal Grazer first). Ugh, I hate that Ashiok so much! :sick:
idSurge wrote:
10 months ago
I lost to the deck the day it was 'banned'. It did not need Bloom. Thats the honest to god truth lol.

Regardless, its not a relevant line of discussion. Some decks die, others live on. A poor comparison by Simto does not mean we need to rehash discussions that have lasted 4 years, and that within the present climate of the game, are farcical.

The game itself is on thin ice, because the stewards of the games design, have decided to ignore rules they have understood to be true for decades.

Nothing else matters.

So lets see how the Ban/'Companion Comment' goes tomorrow, before we flip out over something that is an irrelevant pass time, in the grand scheme of things, while America burns.
This is true. There are many more concerns in the world right now. I had trouble going to sleep yesterday for the first time since some actual traumatic stuff happened to me personally. And I was unaffected by what happened recently - I just was on social media giving the back and forth with people.

I just don't think that the damage to any particular deck was on purpose. Splinter Twin was banned because Wizards kept printing Deceiver Exarch like creatures. They couldn't ban the Exarch because even though most of those creatures have ended up with 3 toughness or less, they weren't sure that they always would be printed like that. Birthing Pod was banned also because they wanted to actively print stronger and stronger creatures. Then alas, they actually haven't printed creatures stronger than Thragtusk, Siege Rhino, or Restoration Angel since with the exception of the Companion mechanic itself. Eldritch Evolution should be an idea to how strong Birthing Pod is - a Birthing Pod for a turn is still a played card.
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Post by Peterhausenn » 10 months ago

Greeksis wrote:
10 months ago
Well, I know several Pod players who never got to find the similar playstyle experience and got their deck banned also. At least, in the case of Twin, there was Kiki Jiki as a replacement, even if it was bad. They playstyle was there. If you are the Twin kind of player and don't mind losing(some or a lot, I am not sure), the playstyle exists.

Pod's playstyle isn't there. Coco is not the same, as it forbids you to play with big bombs.
Prime Speaker Vannifar creates the same playstyle. if you are the twin pod kind of player and don't mind losing(some or a lot, i am not sure), the playstyle exists.

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Post by idSurge » 10 months ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
10 months ago
I believe I did. Amulet was always playable, but I'd rather play other decks if they win more often. I believe that Amulet did need those upgrades to keep up with a Modern that has gotten stronger with power creep.

That may be selfish, but I don't feel like playing Amulet at Tier 3.
It was not tier 3 in power, after the ban of Eldrazi. Obviously Eldrazi itself warped the game too much to even provide any non-eldrazi data that would be meaningful, but to say Amulet was Tier 3 is way off base. Tier 3 is like...Delver decks without Probe or FoN. Its like normal Naya Zoo decks.

Amulet was Tier 1 in power, never less.
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 10 months ago

idSurge wrote:
10 months ago
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
10 months ago
I believe I did. Amulet was always playable, but I'd rather play other decks if they win more often. I believe that Amulet did need those upgrades to keep up with a Modern that has gotten stronger with power creep.

That may be selfish, but I don't feel like playing Amulet at Tier 3.
It was not tier 3 in power, after the ban of Eldrazi. Obviously Eldrazi itself warped the game too much to even provide any non-eldrazi data that would be meaningful, but to say Amulet was Tier 3 is way off base. Tier 3 is like...Delver decks without Probe or FoN. Its like normal Naya Zoo decks.

Amulet was Tier 1 in power, never less.
Honestly, it's very possible. I tried it for 2 weeks with not much success, so I moved on. I found other decks to win with, so I felt no immediate need to go back. But if I had stuck with it, maybe it was still Tier 1. I will say in those 2 weeks following the ban (I realize that I'm biased because the power level got shafted), it didn't feel like Tier 1.
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Post by idSurge » 10 months ago

Right, but thats because it was Tier 0, we just didnt have enough people on it to prove it. That deck did absolutely idiotic things, and did them way before Turn 4.

I feel like if we had back then some of the combo players that put in heavy work today online, it would have been clear very fast.

Either way, it was not comparable to the bans which hit other decks, and I think thats really the real take away here that kicked off this tangent. :D
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Post by The Fluff » 10 months ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
10 months ago
I believe I did. Amulet was always playable, but I'd rather play other decks if they win more often. I believe that Amulet did need those upgrades to keep up with a Modern that has gotten stronger with power creep.
upgrades are needed to keep up I agree. Although wotc make a mistake with Oko, they correct the mistake by send him to the sin bin just like summer bloom who came before him... this effectively wrecked people who had many copies of him in our fb group. :omg:
Yeah, I HAAATED, just hated that Sakura-Tribe Scout for so long. But it stuck with the deck, as it's the best option (although right now that is Arboreal Grazer first). Ugh, I hate that Ashiok so much! :sick:
have seen several grazer lists on mtgtop8, so it's probably also a viable choice.
seriously, the deck can become really hard to deal with without Ashiok. Damping sphere is not enough.
wotc ban things from decks that become too strong, so the existence of the planeswalker is not so bad. ;)
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Post by idSurge » 10 months ago

Greeksis wrote:
10 months ago
Predictions for tomorrow stand as they are:
Big shakeup in Standard.
Agent of treachery at least, and from there rec, fires, maybe t3f all possible.

Historic:
Winota for sure, maybe Nexus also.
Agreed, but I think Winota takes a hit in Standard as well as Historic, while Fires, Wilderness Rec, and T3f (finally!) should all take a hit in Standard.

Nexus in Historic probably could go, but oddly I never run into it? Winota is the easy pick though, that card is so bloody stupid.
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Post by idSurge » 10 months ago

Yeah funny, I've played so much Historic Companion is actually not even the worst thing in the format right now. Winota, even without Agent, is just disgusting. I think I've won against it like 1 time. lol
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Post by Aazadan » 10 months ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
10 months ago
Some believe Arcum's Astrolabe and/or Veil of Summer should eat a ban - there is room for discussion there.
I was pretty early on the Astrolabe ban train. I'm off it now, with Mox Opal gone, I think Astrolabe is fine for the moment. The card overshot it's power level but I think it's ok. A card like that is very, very, very hard to get perfect, there's just too few development knobs to turn. Most 1 drops have this issue actually.

Veil I have no opinion on either way. The card is hated but I also think it's fine in the format. I equate green getting a strong card in Modern with blue getting a strong card in Legacy. It's annoying but not necessarily broken.

On unbans, I felt OuaT was fine but have to admit the meta improved with it gone (as much as we can tell at least), so with that in mind I'm pretty much off my old thinking that GSZ would be ok to unban. I could probably accept Punishing Fire, and I think the artifact lands are fine because they're not exploitable in combo decks the same way Opal was, while they would enable bringing back Affinity, a proven good/safe deck.

That said, I'm against any unbans at the moment. We need a more stable meta first, and that means a Companion change, then some potential bannings, then time to examine the format before considering an unban.

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 10 months ago

Aazadan wrote:
10 months ago
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
10 months ago
Some believe Arcum's Astrolabe and/or Veil of Summer should eat a ban - there is room for discussion there.
I was pretty early on the Astrolabe ban train. I'm off it now, with Mox Opal gone, I think Astrolabe is fine for the moment. The card overshot it's power level but I think it's ok. A card like that is very, very, very hard to get perfect, there's just too few development knobs to turn. Most 1 drops have this issue actually.

Veil I have no opinion on either way. The card is hated but I also think it's fine in the format. I equate green getting a strong card in Modern with blue getting a strong card in Legacy. It's annoying but not necessarily broken.

On unbans, I felt OuaT was fine but have to admit the meta improved with it gone (as much as we can tell at least), so with that in mind I'm pretty much off my old thinking that GSZ would be ok to unban. I could probably accept Punishing Fire, and I think the artifact lands are fine because they're not exploitable in combo decks the same way Opal was, while they would enable bringing back Affinity, a proven good/safe deck.

That said, I'm against any unbans at the moment. We need a more stable meta first, and that means a Companion change, then some potential bannings, then time to examine the format before considering an unban.
I know it's not a popular belief, but I think that the meta AFTER OUaT was banned was much worse. Everything became snow decks with every card saying, "draw a card" on it. The OUaT meta had Amulet, which was too good, and I realize that I'm biased here. But it had Druid Combo, GB Chord, Infect was stronger, and basically Green decks had access to a card that was aeon's better than any cantrip ever legal in Modern. Maybe that was too good, especially in combination with Veil of Summer?

After it's ban, people just moved on to Arcum's Astrolabe. At least before OUaT was banned, not everyone ran AA. I know I got to a point where I was thinking if some other random deck runs AA just because it's too good not to run, I'm gonna tear it up right in front of my opponent. :grin: I don't know what's worse - someone always finding the land or creature they need for free or casting Supreme Verdict off triple Field of Ruin, Island, and 2 AAs.

Veil is teetering very close to being ban worthy. I mean, it's an atrocity to be able to do the things it does for just G, but put that aside. It is becoming super prevalent in SBs, much more so than previous SB staples like Rest in Peace or Stony Silence. But those are defensive cards, whereas Veil is used for protection from interaction. There's a big difference in the uses of RIP and Stony.

Honestly I feel that there could be a lot of unbans. I know some players were all right with Lurrus, but think other cards should remain banned. I'm definitely NOT in that camp and it's very hard for me to see that viewpoint from the side of format health.

*We got players that believe that Preordain makes decks too consistent and makes decks into Xerox decks. Even before Companions, that is exactly what AA, Uro.dec did - it filled itself up with cantrips until all of their games look the same from their side. And even with Yorion, they were able to find all the "draw a card" cards so that if you don't kill them quickly, all games look the same. I watch Gabriel Nassif nearly deck himself due to Yorion, Sky Nomad and Soulherder going off. He was searching for the 2nd Path to Exile and despite drawing nearly 20 cards in 2 turns, he didn't find it. He was pretty upset about that. Do you know how bad it feels to watch someone draw their deck and not find some card that they were what, 75% to see? I play Neobrand and there's bad stuff that happens, but that was just terrible. One more chance, blink E Witness, Snake, draw a card, another Snake, draw a card, AA, draw a card, Uro, draw a card, don't find %$#% and scoop. These games are interesting for people maybe the first 20 times - it gets stale quickly.
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Post by iTaLenTZ » 10 months ago

As far as I know the announcement is only about Standard and Historic and a change to Companions

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Post by Ym1r » 10 months ago

BnR should happen about now right?
Counter, draw a card.

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Post by cfusionpm » 10 months ago

Usually shortly before 8am PST, so in about another 45 min. Not like it really matters to Modern this time though.

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Post by The Fluff » 10 months ago

need to see it. So I know if it's still worth buying companions or not..

but have to sleep now.. I wonder what to see on this thread tomorrow. Lurrus still standing or not?
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Post by Ym1r » 10 months ago

Companion is dead I guess

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... nouncement

New Companion Rule:

Once per game, any time you could cast a sorcery (during your main phase when the stack is empty), you can pay 3 generic mana to put your companion from your sideboard into your hand. This is a special action, not an activated ability.
Counter, draw a card.

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Post by cfusionpm » 10 months ago

Lurrus and Yorion aren't going anywhere. This change doesn't fundamentally shift anything either of them do. And since most instances of casting them are not on curve anyway, but used to gas back up once the hand is low, they're still going to be good. I fully expect both of these (or at least Lurrus) to be banned at some point.

Notably, not. A. Single. Word. About Modern's future. Or any announcements moving forward. Settle in for the sh*tshow.
Last edited by cfusionpm 10 months ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Aazadan » 10 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
10 months ago
Lurrus and Yorion aren't going anywhere. This change doesn't fundamentally shift anything either of them do. And since most instances of casting them are not on curve anyway, but used to gas back up once the hand is low, they're still going to be good. I fully expect both of these (or at least Lurrus) to be banned at some point.

Notably, not. A. Single. Word. About Modern's future. Or any announcements moving forward. Settle in for the sh*tshow.
It's still a pretty big change, adding +3 mana to any companion is huge. In a Lurrus deck that basically means playing two fewer cards and using the better part of 2 turns to cast it. Jund certainly won't be interested in Lurrus any longer.

The only one that I don't think this changes is Tron, because they almost always have 8+ mana by the time they're out of threats and are ready to cast it.
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Post by drmarkb » 10 months ago

Kills the blue Belcher in Legacy.
Not sure about Yorion, probably still a great deck. Not sure about Lurrus in Modern.
Modern is going to continue in the same fashion, pretty much.
Great if you are on the top decks, rubbish if you are not, where you play the 'dodge the one of the three top decks I can't beat' lottery, like much of its history, the only difference now is the enforced upgrades for the top decks. Fundamentally a flawed competitive format, albeit one where you can have fun if you are not too serious at FNM level. If you can find an opponent.

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Post by th33l3x » 10 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
10 months ago
Lurrus and Yorion aren't going anywhere. This change doesn't fundamentally shift anything either of them do. And since most instances of casting them are not on curve anyway, but used to gas back up once the hand is low, they're still going to be good. I fully expect both of these (or at least Lurrus) to be banned shortly.
I'm not so sure. You can only put them in hand at sorcery speed, so the whole Lurrus-Bauble business is pretty much over for instance. If opp spends 6 mana in his main phase to Lurrus, that doesnt look like a good play to me.

With Yorion: You have to either take a whole turn off (t3/t4) and tap out to be able to cast it on curve. Yorion having flash becomes a bad joke, too.

Spending 3 mana at sorcery speed to essentially draw a card is so much worse than spending 0.

I dont think Rx Prowess cant justify running Lurrus over Bedlam Reveler enymore.

I don't think Jund will skip Lily and BBE for Lurrus any longer.

I don't think Grixis delver can effectively use Lurrus any longer.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like this makes Companions incredibly mana-intensive.

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Post by cfusionpm » 10 months ago

th33l3x wrote:
10 months ago
Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like this makes Companions incredibly mana-intensive.
Maybe, maybe not. Maybe people just jam them in main decks instead of running them as companions? Lurrus is stupidly powerful. It's a Snapcaster Mage, every turn, that does not exile the card you cast.

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