[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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Post by idSurge » 11 months ago

We really don't need to worry about unbans.

Whatever F.I.R.E has changed at Wizards, needs an immediate rollback.

As ktk and others have said, it's not a Modern issue. It's the whole game is flawed right now.
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Post by Aazadan » 11 months ago

idSurge wrote:
11 months ago
As ktk and others have said, it's not a Modern issue. It's the whole game is flawed right now.
My friends are saying current Magic isn't fun, pros like Sam Black basically want to stop playing the game, even Reid Duke is being about as negative as he can possibly get towards the current game (particularly Companions), and the playerbase is in wide spread agreement that the last several sets have been among the worst ever for non rotating formats, while paired with an unfun Standard season.

Ya, the game has problems right now. But this is nothing new, this site as well as some others have been in widespread agreement on there being deep and severe issues with the games development process since at least early 2019.

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Post by ktkenshinx » 11 months ago

idSurge wrote:
11 months ago
We really don't need to worry about unbans.

Whatever F.I.R.E has changed at Wizards, needs an immediate rollback.

As ktk and others have said, it's not a Modern issue. It's the whole game is flawed right now.
Aazadan wrote:
11 months ago
idSurge wrote:
11 months ago
As ktk and others have said, it's not a Modern issue. It's the whole game is flawed right now.
My friends are saying current Magic isn't fun, pros like Sam Black basically want to stop playing the game, even Reid Duke is being about as negative as he can possibly get towards the current game (particularly Companions), and the playerbase is in wide spread agreement that the last several sets have been among the worst ever for non rotating formats, while paired with an unfun Standard season.

Ya, the game has problems right now. But this is nothing new, this site as well as some others have been in widespread agreement on there being deep and severe issues with the games development process since at least early 2019.
Quoted for special, double emphasis. It is imperative players realize this is not a Modern problem. It's fashionable to believe Modern is some uniquely %$#% format, but this dangerous belief has allowed Wizards to get away with multi-format murder for over a year at this point. Honestly, it's probably over 2 years if we account for the lag time between set design/testing and release (see WAR). We need to understand there are fundamental problems with Magic at the WotC level. I don't necessarily know which of their many internal processes is causing these problems (we don't have access to this kind of information), but we all know the effects: untested cards, super power creep, awful/opaque communication, half measures to resolve problems, etc.

The community has also made this worse through years of incessant ban mania and complaining about illegitimate problems. I and others warned about this in the past, but now we're seeing the effects: every time we cried wolf about something that wasn't actually a problem, we conditioned Wizards to ignore us. Now that we have some glaring and pernicious problems, it's easy for Wizards to bury their collective R&D/executive heads and just write off the community as a bunch of wolf-crying crybabies. This deepens divisions between the game and its community. Honestly, most of the solutions to Wizards' problems are probably already out there in an article, thread, Tweet, or email. But it's just so easy for them to hand-wave us away because for the last decade, most of the sky is falling %$#%$#% has been just that: %$#%$#%. Now it's real and scary but we've conditioned Wizards to not care.

The good news is that the sheer volume of anti-Wizards outcry may be impossible for them to ignore. There are already clear signs of that, between the paragraph in the B&R update and recent Maro posts. But the fact that it's even reached this point is very worrisome. I'm still optimistic Wizards can turn this around, but it will take way more work today than it would have taken a year or more ago.
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Post by idSurge » 11 months ago

Aazadan wrote:
11 months ago
Ya, the game has problems right now. But this is nothing new, this site as well as some others have been in widespread agreement on there being deep and severe issues with the games development process since at least early 2019.
Its been longer than this. Much longer. Everything post Khans block really you can find things to point to which leads to my next point...
ktkenshinx wrote:
11 months ago
The community has also made this worse through years of incessant ban mania and complaining about illegitimate problems. I and others warned about this in the past, but now we're seeing the effects: every time we cried wolf about something that wasn't actually a problem, we conditioned Wizards to ignore us. Now that we have some glaring and pernicious problems, it's easy for Wizards to bury their collective R&D/executive heads and just write off the community as a bunch of wolf-crying crybabies. This deepens divisions between the game and its community. Honestly, most of the solutions to Wizards' problems are probably already out there in an article, thread, Tweet, or email. But it's just so easy for them to hand-wave us away because for the last decade, most of the sky is falling %$#%$#% has been just that: %$#%$#%. Now it's real and scary but we've conditioned Wizards to not care.
There were problems. We didnt 'cry wolf'.

There have been documented issues since AT LEAST Khans block finished. The type of Magic being designed and developed HAS been wrong.

Its not crying wolf, we were the canary in the coal mines.

Starting with those idiotic Eldrazi and up to and including Companion, the push back against Counter Magic, Discard, and Removal, the overpowered bombs, the endless parade of these insane 1 card value engines, rules changes, and finally openly pushed cards that either hit every axis of reasonable play (Uro and UG friends) or at the basic fundamental level alter how the game is played, like in the very basic structure of the game (Companion).

We didnt cry wolf. We correctly identified years ahead of time that the path they where on was flawed, and now its coming home.
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Post by drmarkb » 11 months ago

Over the last 5 years we had 3 years of garbage, powered down Standard, with no answers- energy etc, Emrakul- none were super powerful, it was just that the answers were non existent.
Then we have a period of garbage, super pushed standard, where the threats and answers are better, but the threats still outweigh answers.

In both cases the issue has been the attempts to cater to bloody commander demographic, and WOTC's stupid inability to realise that they can't get this group to play standard, brawl or whatever, because they will play commander. They will play commander and many of them will rip boosters regardless of what gets printed. They will buy precons regardless of what gets printed. You can make the whole set critters and walkers and the commander players who buy and rip boosters will still do so, and the commander players who don't will still not, or you could make the whole set uncommander friendly and the result would be the same. Commander players are not an homeogenous bunch, they don't all purchase together, and there will always be a huge rump of commander players whose wallets remain relatively closed no matter what gets printed, just as there are those who buy 6 cases. Design should not be aiming at either...........it should aim at comp players who actually break the game.
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Post by cfusionpm » 11 months ago

Greeksis wrote:
1 year ago
Temur Twin CAN be 4 color with astrolabe and even run T3feri. Temur Twin can play most good stuff cards, opt, abrade, etc.
As I said previously, I would love to see what this unfocused mess could look like. Because it sounds like a cluttered and clunky pile of cards instead of a cohesive, well-oiled machine.
And you will still have an opponent going Turn 1 snare, Turn 2 remand, Turn 3 eot exarch, tap your last land, force of negation your removal, untap twin.
Should we list all the decks which can kill on or before turn 4 with a perfect opening 7?

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Post by True-Name Nemesis » 11 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
11 months ago
Should we list all the decks which can kill on or before turn 4 with a perfect opening 7?
Not even perfect opening 7. Perfect Top 10 cards on the play, using all of them.

4 lands
1 snare/opt/SV/Astrolabe whatever
1 remand
1 twin creature
1 FoN
1 random blue card to pitch
1 Splinter Twin

Obviously stuff like this will definitely happen a non-zero amount of times but let's not act like this is anywhere realistic to happen with any kind of regularity.

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Post by idSurge » 11 months ago

Why, in the name of Garfield, are we discussing Twin?

Just stop, it's not relevant.
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Post by cfusionpm » 11 months ago

True-Name Nemesis wrote:
11 months ago
cfusionpm wrote:
11 months ago
Should we list all the decks which can kill on or before turn 4 with a perfect opening 7?
Not even perfect opening 7. Perfect Top 10 cards on the play, using all of them.

4 lands
1 snare/opt/SV/Astrolabe whatever
1 remand
1 twin creature
1 FoN
1 random blue card to pitch
1 Splinter Twin

Obviously stuff like this will definitely happen a non-zero amount of times but let's not act like this is anywhere realistic to happen with any kind of regularity.
A while back I ran the math for successful turn 4 Twin combo using a fairly stock 2015 list (which included incidental draw like Electrolyze), and came up that a Turn 4 Twin combo could occur 13-32% of the time, without disruption. This range is based on number of cards seen/drawn/scry'd and being on play/draw. On the play, drawing no extra cards, you'd T4 Twin about 13% of the time. On the draw, seeing/drawing 3 extra cards, you'd still have less than a 1/3 chance of a T4 combo, and assumes zero disruption from opponent.

It was calculated based on the following needs:
-Land drop every turn for 4 turns
-RR available by turn 4
-Tapper creature available by turn 3
-Twin available by turn 4
Calculated for seeing anywhere from 10 cards (play/no extra draw) to 14 cards (draw/3 extra looks (opportunity to bottom) or draws).

Throw in FoN + blue card and you cut that down considerably. I don't know for sure, because I don't know what a list would look like. But if it's clunked up with Astrolabes and green or white cards, that makes FoN's hunger for blue cards much, much, much worse.
idSurge wrote:
11 months ago
Why, in the name of Garfield, are we discussing Twin?

Just stop, it's not relevant.
I agree. No need to say the sky is falling for a fictional representation of a deck that has never existed in the current meta. Same kind of doomsaying kept Jace and Stoneforge banned for years longer than necessary.

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Post by idSurge » 11 months ago

I just struggle to see relevance.

I don't need Twin to exist, to know T3feri and Veil are absolutely in need of being banned.

Not 'desire', not 'opinion', but fundamentally REQUIRED to be removed.

They shouldn't exist, Twin is not relevant to the discussion.
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 11 months ago

idSurge wrote:
11 months ago
I just struggle to see relevance.

I don't need Twin to exist, to know T3feri and Veil are absolutely in need of being banned.

Not 'desire', not 'opinion', but fundamentally REQUIRED to be removed.

They shouldn't exist, Twin is not relevant to the discussion.
People bring it up because it evokes strong feelings one way or another. But you are definitely right that it is irrelevant to the conversation of 2019-2020 mistake cards. That is definitely THE first issue to try to work on (I also shouldn't bring up cards that I feel should be unbanned). It's not going to do much to relieve some small issues when there is a huge issue staring us in the face.

I'm curious about when Ikoria goes out of print. I would personally look to that date for a group of likely bans for Modern and a shakeup within the Modern metagame.

*I was so close to buying a full art Lurrus yesterday for $13, even though I know it's not long for this world. I wanted it for collector purposes, but that's such a waste, considering I'll never be able to play it and it will go down in price even more. (already was an idiot for buying the other full art Companions, mostly cuz they're cheap af right now, so I kind of don't care throwing $25 down the toilet)
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - MBA, UB Inverter
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by cfusionpm » 11 months ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
11 months ago
*I was so close to buying a full art Lurrus yesterday for $13, even though I know it's not long for this world. I wanted it for collector purposes, but that's such a waste, considering I'll never be able to play it and it will go down in price even more. (already was an idiot for buying the other full art Companions, mostly cuz they're cheap af right now, so I kind of don't care throwing $25 down the toilet)
It will be banned in Modern long before we will be able to play in paper again. So as long as you make peace with that, buy away!

All I can say is the only paper product I have spent any money on in the last... 6? months or more, were things to build or upgrade Commander decks. Because, unlike Modern, I can swap one or two things here and there and not need to completely dismantle and rebuild them every 3 months, like Modern has turned into. Yarok has gotten some sweet new toys that I'll probably update on that topic, and I'm putting together a Hogaak pile that looks fun.

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 11 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
11 months ago
It will be banned in Modern long before we will be able to play in paper again. So as long as you make peace with that, buy away!

All I can say is the only paper product I have spent any money on in the last... 6? months or more, were things to build or upgrade Commander decks. Because, unlike Modern, I can swap one or two things here and there and not need to completely dismantle and rebuild them every 3 months, like Modern has turned into. Yarok has gotten some sweet new toys that I'll probably update on that topic, and I'm putting together a Hogaak pile that looks fun.
I was almost willing to do that, but I'll probably just get it for $5 after it's banned, just for collector purposes. I mean, I have 4 Okos that I bought 3 for around $30 and 1 for $40. I got a good price at the time. But now they're $8 because I figured I'd hold onto them for Legacy. I really didn't get my enjoyment or prize winning out of that purchase, as I played mostly Amulet and Elementals during its short reign in Modern all formats.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - MBA, UB Inverter
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by drmarkb » 11 months ago

FON being printed is the biggest impediment to twin returning, the flash ability and mana restrictive ability on the twin creatures makes FON more powerful than in normal combo decks. I must admit I was not impressed with the forces, the cycle was awfully unbalanced. Blue gets Fow 5/6 in Legacy, and black gets....and white gets......erm, shafted.
The other thing which refers not to twin but to creature based combos in general is that Modern has a limited pile of answers to creatures- fatal push is solid, but only solid, bolt is not what it used to be (generally, in an Uro world) and path to exile is just pure crap nowadays, it just puts off the inevitable if you ramp any deck in the early game. Asking white decks to run it is like asking blue decks to start countering with cancel, or green decks to play Ernham Djinn over Uro. I never understood why we are still stuck with this card in white - Oust would be fine at instant speed. I guess you could argue that white has reflector mage with blue. The whole game has become about pushed walkers, and ridiculous dudes like Uro, in all formats to an extent. Creatures even act as premier removal, with Brazen Borrower, Stomp, Deputy of D etc. Can't we just get over this creatures/walkers obsession?
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Post by Aazadan » 11 months ago

drmarkb wrote:
11 months ago
Over the last 5 years we had 3 years of garbage, powered down Standard, with no answers- energy etc, Emrakul- none were super powerful, it was just that the answers were non existent.
Do you know why energy was garbage? It was ridiculously efficient. Sure, the parasitic nature of it makes it difficult to include in non rotating formats but in terms of Standard where that parasitic nature isn't really a big deal? It's power level was through the roof.

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... 2016-09-16

Read that and laugh. Due to energy and the way they balanced it, you effectively got one additional manas worth of value (sometimes 2) out of every single card. So a 3/3 for 3 with 3 energy wasn't on curve, it was closer to 5 mana of value for spending 3 mana. And they were so convinced they were right on that, they defend it in that article I just linked.

This is one of those mistakes on par with the untap land mechanic when you cast spells. And they didn't catch it. As time has gone on, they've missed more and more stuff like this. WAR and everything after it has essentially had a catastrophic development process. There's stuff prior to that, that had issues but it felt like they were still trying. I'm honestly not sure they even have a functioning development process anymore.

I've speculated as much as anyone on the causes based on what little information has leaked out from current/former employees. I could be way off, I could be right. In truth it doesn't really matter because I'm pretty sure that some of the people at WotC know what the problem is and I'm pretty sure the ones that know what the problem is were overruled.

If my earlier comparison earlier didn't put this in the proper frame of reference, Lurrus being the first card to ever be banned in Vintage due to it being so over the top that even as a restricted card it was too much (with it being functionally restricted just by it's text), consider this:

We have had more bans now than Urza block in the same time frame.
A companion that we aren't even talking about, because it's power level is too LOW to be competitive was preemptively banned in two formats.
Since Hogaak replaced Mental Misstep as the fastest non Memory Jar ban ever, we have now had two bans happen faster than Hogaak (not including the companion, which ties Memory Jar).
And many more.

There have been so many errors, that we are seeing bans at least once, and usually twice per set. There have been so many bans, that we can probably find periods of 10 weeks inside the 2018-2020 group so far, that have more bans than the 10 years of Magic between 2008-2018.

If that's not enough, in this time frame Wizards has been so paranoid about the need for bans that they shifted from a once per set ban cycle, to a twice per set ban cycle, to a whenever they need to do it ban cycle and they still can't seem to get the game into a better place. The reason they can't, is because it's not one or two outliers causing issues, but rather a systemic issue in their development process.
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Post by drmarkb » 11 months ago

Energy had no cards to remove the energy counters or prevent them being gained, same as infect in Scars block- which in limited was a nightmare because, yep some jerk thought "players should not be able to remove counters" or such, for "feel reasons" as opposed to game-play reasons.
If they printed a few cards that prevent, steal or remove counters you can get a balanced meta. But without these cards there was no reason to play anything else.....horrible parasitic mechanics need safety valves.......

I would like to hear more of your theories....who do you think knows the score?

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Post by Aazadan » 11 months ago

drmarkb wrote:
11 months ago
Energy had no cards to remove the energy counters or prevent them being gained, same as infect in Scars block- which in limited was a nightmare because, yep some jerk thought "players should not be able to remove counters" or such, for "feel reasons" as opposed to game-play reasons.
If they printed a few cards that prevent, steal or remove counters you can get a balanced meta. But without these cards there was no reason to play anything else.....horrible parasitic mechanics need safety valves.......

I would like to hear more of your theories....who do you think knows the score?
See my edit.

I don't actually think an inability to remove poison counters was an issue. And yes, I played Scars block limited. Maybe it was a constructed issue, but that's going to be a hard sell too. Infect has at it's best been a competitive deck, and never overly dominant. Energy was just very poorly developed.

As far as who, pick anyone who has been at Wizards for a long time. It's easy to come up with reasons why they've changed things, but it doesn't matter why. It only matters that they have changed for the worse.

When it comes to the lack of safety valves, you can lay that right at the feet of their then lead developer. Because he didn't think safety valves were necessary. So much so, that he thought one of the major problems with affinity block was that Shatter was in the block, and it kept artifact combo other than Affinity from doing things.

The problem with the safety valve argument though is that Modern has some, Legacy and Vintage have a lot. And the safety valves in those formats still haven't been enough to balance anything. Think about decks like Hogaak, they were so strong that their worst match was the mirror, and they would mainboard Leyline of the Void to fight that battle. The development issues since WAR have been so egregious that even the traditional catch all safety valves like Force of Will (plus adding Force of Negation to the mix), Counterspell, Red Elemental Blast, Swords to Plowshares, and so on haven't kept these cards in check.

Restated for emphasis: Force of Will plus adding Force of Negation and the green force to the format, hasn't been enough to keep 2019 and later cards from creating degenerate metagames. When you're at that point, is it truly an issue of safety valves being too few and too weak?
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Post by cfusionpm » 11 months ago

drmarkb wrote:
11 months ago
FON being printed is the biggest impediment to twin returning, the flash ability and mana restrictive ability on the twin creatures makes FON more powerful than in normal combo decks.
I wish people would not say things like this as if they mean anything.

Force of Negation is not free on your turn, so to be effective for Twin to use, the only window to use is the opponent's turn, before/during/after tapper resolves. If opponent simply doesn't do anything and waits to kill, say, in Twin's upkeep instead, they have to either now spend their mana on the counterspell (which is no longer free, and now costs them a turn of being able to combo), or let the creature die.

On the flip side, FoN (and for that matter, Force of Vigor) are both free while the Twin player is trying to go off. Meaning you can safely tap out against them and hold up either of these pieces of interaction. You get to bluff to the Twin player that you have nothing, then blow them out with a massive tempo swing that will be very hard to recover from.

It is not clearly black and white, strictly better, or whatever nonsense people continue to peddle in order to justify an unnatural fear for a combo deck that is either slower, less reliable, or easier to interact with than a slew of things currently dominating Modern. Goodness, this is why many of us don't even want to talk about it anymore.
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Post by idSurge » 11 months ago

I mean to riff on the meme.

"Imagine talking about Twin when the future of the game is in doubt."

It isn't simply apathy. It isn't because of my own bias against/toward it. It literally doesnt matter.

Like Aazadan is saying, they are unquestionably flawed in how they are MAKING MAGIC. I point to BfZ Block, but you can find evidence of it across every set from there after.

Look at the bans, look at WHY for those bans. This is not 'Oh its just 2019'. Thats just the event horizon.

If we continue to get Oko, Uro, Fires, Lukka, Wilderness Rec, and thats not even MENTIONING the Companion issue or the 'yeah its not Yawgmoths Will its fine...' like seriously W.T.F.

The Development side needs a full clear out. No joke. Whoever is responsible for format health and balance should be terminated or moved to a new role.
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Post by cfusionpm » 11 months ago

Greeksis wrote:
11 months ago
I have already a list that I ve been trying and it looks like a better Temur Snow deck.
Care to share?

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Post by cfusionpm » 11 months ago

Greeksis wrote:
11 months ago
cfusionpm wrote:
11 months ago
Greeksis wrote:
11 months ago
I have already a list that I ve been trying and it looks like a better Temur Snow deck.
Care to share?
Do you really want the list and genuinely asking, or do you feel the need to have it to critique it no matter what, so that you feel Twin needs to be unbanned, even if that's not true? If yes, of course.
I'm genuinely curious because, while 4 color Astolabe piles were/are a big part of Legacy, they pretty much don't exist at all in Modern. And I'm curious what a fluid and cohesive Twin deck could look like when it's giving up blue cantrips (something that fuels FoN) for Astrolabes (something that doesn't scry or pitch to Force). And if it's playing Uros and T3feris and whatever else (Cliques? Borrowers?), in addition to the combo pieces, it means the 3-drop slot could likely be SUPER BLOATED. It's hard to picture it being anything other than blue-based Kiki Chord.

I ask because I've been talking with people for literal years telling me how broken Twin would be with card XYZ, and then nobody seems to actually produce a list. And when they do, it's usually a clunky mess that is totally unfocused and all over the place. And when people talk about this hypothetical "dominance" they don't ever seem to take into consideration how other decks (and the format as a whole) might shift to adapt.

I'm just really sick of hearing "This card/deck is busted because..." and the reasons are just personal opinions in a vacuum. I don't know if you were around, but the exact conversations happened when AV was banned (Blue interactive decks are going to take over the format!) when Jace was unbanned (it's going to nullify all non-blue decks!) and even Stoneforge (it's too powerful of a value engine! every white deck will run it!). People are just so laughably bad at evaluating cards that I'd rather let it loose and see if several thousand MTGO grinders could SHOW us if it's broken. Because no one person is going show anything beyond opinions and anecdotal experiences.

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Post by idSurge » 11 months ago

SFM would have been an absolute joke in 2015. Dragons of Tarkir came out March 2015, and K-Command was MORE than a playable card in that meta.

Jace, come on. It took 2, if not 3 card's to make Jace good, and those started coming in 2018, with Dominaria.

The new cards of Magic's post Khans form, absolutely make a mockery of everything that has come before.

EDIT: Besides you are all talking from a perspective of...

1. Cards being unbanned, and making an impact now.
2. Magic being played anywhere but online any time soon (aka, see you all next year)
3. Magic not imploding after Core 2021, and Zen v3.
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Post by cfusionpm » 11 months ago

Greeksis wrote:
11 months ago
I have the list at the ready. I have played Twin during it's banned period for many, many hours and I have refined a lot of the lists.
It's just that I don't want to share it, because I feel like you only want to criticize it out of bias for wanting it unbanned and contribute nothing to it's creation to be a better list.
Don't misunderstand me, if you are going to test it, or just see it with no "this list sucks" two liners, I am happy to share it.

My question is: do I need to play Yorion? I can, and the deck is basically a better Scapeshift. And Yorion may be diluting the combo, but the same could be said about Scapeshift and it's not. Because you basically have many tappers and 4 Twins. and infinite card draw.
You're absolutely right, I would very likely criticize it. And I probably wouldn't contribute to making it better because I do not think for a second that a 4 color pile is where a deck like that wants to be. Regardless, if you don't want to share, fine. But I don't really want to hear your theories of what you think is too good if you aren't even going to show us the list that is supposedly "too good."
Re JTMS/SFM: Those cards would be busted in 2015, but 2016 onwards they would be just fine and many of us knew it just well. Twin is a different beast. While I was sure SFM, JTMS would be fine,
As already posted, SFM would have been eaten alive by 2015's K-Command. A card that saw considerable play because Twin and Affinity were both effectively the "best decks" and it UTTERLY WRECKS Affinity. And I'd guess that K-Command single-handedly kept Affinity from easily surpassing Twin in competitive results that year.

Jace is a mediocre card that only shines when at parity or ahead. It's the posterchild of "win more" and does a very poor job helping you crawl back from a losing position. He is frequently the worst walker in any list that plays him, and I personally cut him in games 2 and 3 in most matches in Bant Snow (which also doesn't touch Trashforge Mystic with a 10-foot pole!)
about Twin, I think it would be much above 10% of the metagame. And it would draw that much of an attention, that it would require action again. For the reasons stated. Not just theorycrafting here. I actually am in a phase where I playtest with the deck and not just theorycrafting.
I'm sure you've done a bunch of testing. I'm also sure that the "testing" is nothing more than a fun exercise, until your N matches gets to a reasonable number. But even then, and accounting for variance, you'd also have to accurately predict what opponent decks would look like, how the meta would shift, and how people would alter their main decks and sideboards.

I'm sure it might be better than nothing, but it's certainly nothing to constantly doomsay over. Especially since you won't share your list or expand on your test opponents. But I'd also be fine if this never came up again.

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idSurge
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Post by idSurge » 11 months ago

Greeksis wrote:
11 months ago
Danger: Do not unban Twin Modern, while Mystic Sanctuary, Veil of summer, Astrolabe, Uro and potentially T3f are free. First ban all the others, then unban Twin.
I mean I would look over the list, for science, but I think this is the important part anyway, regardless of Twin.

That said, Sanctuary did nothing wrong. :p
UR Control UR

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AvalonAurora
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Post by AvalonAurora » 11 months ago

Speaking of Twin Astrolabe possibilities, has there been any attempts or success with Kiki-Astrolabe-Uro-Temur setups? That could make some indicators as to how such would work with Twin, just with twin being MUCH better. Plus Astrolabe decks seem to deal with some of Kiki's issues, like the more difficult and higher mana cost, at least theoretically.

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