[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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idSurge
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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

I think the decks you or I hate won't be going anywhere. If the meta is shaping up as I suspect though there is going to be plenty of choices to be made on how/what to play with, around or against those decks.

This,
The most important decisions you actually make in Modern are in deck selection, sideboarding choices, and mulliganing. The actual gameplay decisions you make within games you play seem unimportant and inconsequential
Has always been true.
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
I think the decks you or I hate won't be going anywhere. If the meta is shaping up as I suspect though there is going to be plenty of choices to be made on how/what to play with, around or against those decks.

This,
The most important decisions you actually make in Modern are in deck selection, sideboarding choices, and mulliganing. The actual gameplay decisions you make within games you play seem unimportant and inconsequential
Has always been true.
That's OK. That's what MTGO is for.

And honestly, I'm thinking of just making that my new signature picture. LOL

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

People act like it's super hard to fetch, shock a few times. If you've never done this, I would go out on a limb and say that you are not much of a well-rounded Modern player. Shadow decks are one of the most overrated in skill necessary to play of all time. When my opponent attacks me for 18 instead of 22 when either is lethal and I have no card in my colors (outside of a random Manamorphose into double Lightning Bolt, lol) that can possibly kill them in response. Not to mention, they've seen my hand since the beginning of the game and right before attacking and Raging.
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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
The Fluff wrote:
1 year ago
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago

I miss those builds of Shadow. Very grindy and tempo. I reluctantly kept mine that way much longer than I should have. It's been a long time since I've seen those ones do well. Seems now it's "double strike + trample or bust" most of the time. Much less interesting or fun to play.

In other news, From the Vault Fetchlands was announced: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... 2020-03-13
that's what I like about modern. Decks always try to evolve to become better. :)

nice new art on the zen fetchlands. I wonder how much they would cost?
I just don't like that the evolution is "How can I remove interaction with my opponents and instead just kill them faster?"
first of all, this is a game. If my opponent thinks that is the way to win, then I'm fine with that.
Of course, my sideboard would eventually shape up to try and deal with them. I don't have a problem with decks that try to kill quickly like Humans, infect, GDS, Dredge. Also don't have a problem with combo decks like Amulet, Breach, and other similar stuff. they are a part of the modern format.
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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

I disagree on Shadow. Now, I don't think it's in the highest difficulty tier, if we were to tier such things but I do think it takes considerable skill to pilot well because it uses derived information to a much greater extent than the average deck in modern. A single misjudged attack is almost always lethal and that means there is a wide gap between correct and incorrect lines. In terms of decision trees it is relatively low, but it punishes you hard for picking wrong.

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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
My personal dissatisfaction with the format is directly tied to how frequently this is the optimal solution.
I mean, it's this specific build doesn't get to do anything by stalling the game, you're already a T3 deck, so diversifying the threats is better. Also, it has ALWAYS been this way, you just had a (T1) deck you enjoyed so you didn't complain then,
Aazadan wrote:
1 year ago
Affinity would change it's cards for sure, to use actual cards with Affinity again, but that would get them the acceleration they lost with Mox gone. Emry wouldn't see much change in her power level. The cards are completely safe.
Affinity's power was the speed and it's synergies. A 2/2 for free or a 4/4 with a reduction won't change much in it's viability. It's fundamentally an aggro deck - with some combo elements.

Artifact lands will make T1 Emry SUPER common, perhaps even more common than with Opal. These also trigger/get sacrificed to Grinding Station, so you can start the loop faster or do some value Breaches easier.

I've said it before Emry is the problem and enabler not Opal.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
I mean, it's this specific build doesn't get to do anything by stalling the game, you're already a T3 deck, so diversifying the threats is better. Also, it has ALWAYS been this way, you just had a (T1) deck you enjoyed so you didn't complain then,
Not sure what you're referring to or insinuating.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
And honestly, I'm thinking of just making that my new signature picture. LOL
Hey, if thats your joy man. You know I've lived that life for a long long time.

But that is what T2 (at best) piles look like these days, just like we used to smash on Elves or Zoo back in the day.
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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
My personal dissatisfaction with the format is directly tied to how frequently this is the optimal solution.
I mean, it's this specific build doesn't get to do anything by stalling the game, you're already a T3 deck, so diversifying the threats is better. Also, it has ALWAYS been this way, you just had a (T1) deck you enjoyed so you didn't complain then,
Aazadan wrote:
1 year ago
Affinity would change it's cards for sure, to use actual cards with Affinity again, but that would get them the acceleration they lost with Mox gone. Emry wouldn't see much change in her power level. The cards are completely safe.
Affinity's power was the speed and it's synergies. A 2/2 for free or a 4/4 with a reduction won't change much in it's viability. It's fundamentally an aggro deck - with some combo elements.

Artifact lands will make T1 Emry SUPER common, perhaps even more common than with Opal. These also trigger/get sacrificed to Grinding Station, so you can start the loop faster or do some value Breaches easier.

I've said it before Emry is the problem and enabler not Opal.
Land, Mox, Emry was a 1 mana Emry. Blue Artifact Land (which you can't fetch)+0 mana artifact+Emry is a significantly harder combination to put together.

Also, note that Emry can't bring artifact lands in graveyards into play. It can trigger Grinding Station as your land drop but that's all.

Edit: Your point that the artifact lands probably wouldn't change the viability of Affinity much is a point in favor of unbanning them. They were banned as an attempt to prevent an old Standard/Extended deck from being dominant. The ban rationale no longer applies, this isn't that format anymore, and they are the only cards originally banned under that rationale targeted at a specific deck (Mental Misstep had the same reasoning, but targeted at several decks) that are still banned. All of the rest have come off at this point, and all were safe unbans.

Additionally, Affinity even with Mox Opal wasn't T1 so it wouldn't be a top tier meta contender. The artifact lands might however make it viable, and Modern is the format where aggro is the least viable right now. Taking the splash damage of Mox Opal makes it make a lot of sense to return the lands. We know it wouldn't create a T1 deck, or worse a T0 deck, but it would help to push aggro slightly more in the format.

So, we have a ban reason that is no longer valid as it wasn't a ban due to performance in Modern but to prevent the rise of specific decks in a format era where old decks would simply transition. Additionally, the big combo threat pieces in Opal and KCI that really make those lands degenerate are gone. And, we have two actual reasons to unban. First is that the Opal ban had splash damage, damage that can be fixed. Second is that it boosts aggro decks, and since the lands can't be fetched, and they don't play well with Astrolabe, it creates some more variation in the format.

Outdated original ban idea.
No longer relevant secondary ban reason.
Main deck it helps is a very underrepresented archetype in the format, and is a healthy playstyle according to Wizards.
Promotes sets of cards that are considerably different from the formats current pillars.
The decks it promotes already have a lot of powerful, and highly played sideboard hate in the format further lowering the risk.

An unban of artifact lands makes a lot of sense.

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Post by TheBoulderer » 1 year ago

Got a nice anectote for y'alls: just had a jace resolved against me out of Bant Uro through 3 counterspells: casts Jace, I cryptic, he Veils, I Dispel, He Deprives, I Spell snare, He Veils again.

i'll say this right now: %$#% this format as long as Veil is in it. %$#% it. I'm out.

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Post by Ym1r » 1 year ago

TheBoulderer wrote:
1 year ago
Got a nice anectote for y'alls: just had a jace resolved against me out of Bant Uro through 3 counterspells: casts Jace, I cryptic, he Veils, I Dispel, He Deprives, I Spell snare, He Veils again.

i'll say this right now: %$#% this format as long as Veil is in it. %$#% it. I'm out.
Not that I don't hate Veil, but in your example, Veils could as well had been Dispels and the effect would be the same.
Counter, draw a card.

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Post by TheBoulderer » 1 year ago

Ym1r wrote:
1 year ago
TheBoulderer wrote:
1 year ago
Got a nice anectote for y'alls: just had a jace resolved against me out of Bant Uro through 3 counterspells: casts Jace, I cryptic, he Veils, I Dispel, He Deprives, I Spell snare, He Veils again.

i'll say this right now: %$#% this format as long as Veil is in it. %$#% it. I'm out.
Not that I don't hate Veil, but in your example, Veils could as well had been Dispels and the effect would be the same.
Not even close, because not only did he resolve Jace, which would have been manageable with Tar Pit, he drew 2 cards in the process. He basically cast 2 cryptics for GG.

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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
Not sure what you're referring to or insinuating.
I'm reffering to 2 things:

1. Breach decks are combo decks, so threat density is better than counters/removals.

2. More threats were (almost) always what it was best to do. That hasn't changed now. What's changed is that you don't have Twin to play , so you care more about it, despite it being always the case.
Aazadan wrote:
1 year ago
Land, Mox, Emry was a 1 mana Emry. Blue Artifact Land (which you can't fetch)+0 mana artifact+Emry is a significantly harder combination to put together.

Also, note that Emry can't bring artifact lands in graveyards into play. It can trigger Grinding Station as your land drop but that's all.
Artifact land + 0 mana artifact on T1 is easier to do than land + 2 0 mana artifacts (some of which are explosives and may need them later). With artifact lands your t2 kill is easier too, since you have a "free" trigger off of a land. Plus they count for 2 towards Thoughtcast which may further increase consistency.

As for affinity, my point was that it won't save the deck, neither will it save Scales, but help Emry decks far more when they're on the edge of accepable power/speed.
If it were me I'd kill Emry and get Mox back in. It'll stop all those stupid fast combo decks that Emry enables and will also reduce the grinding capabilities that she offers. It'll also increase diversity among artifact decks, because they'll have the speed to compete even if it is at T2.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
.2. More threats were (almost) always what it was best to do. That hasn't changed now. What's changed is that you don't have Twin to play , so you care more about it, despite it being always the case.
2a: People used to set aside slots to interact with their opponent, as well as build entire midrange and control decks with the intention of answering the opponent, then landing a threat to win. The fact that both of these are effectively dying; related to the the bottom tables of most events (sure, a handful or two might ride the variance game and sideboard lottery to the top once in a while) is what's disappointing. These kinds of decks create good gameplay, in which people are playing WITH their opponent; not AT them or THROUGH them. Now, if I want that kind of gameplay experience, I have to consciously choose to play objectively inferior decks.

2b: Please stop putting words in my mouth. This is not the first time from you, and it is not appreciated.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

How do you propose we do anything about that? Or do we just let the format die as attendance continues to drop and people don't like the linear rat races combined with constant bannings?

I care because I have invested thousands of dollars and years of my life into something I loved, and watch it spiral downward for years. Watched others with the same complaints, watched others with the same frustrations, watched events fade and numbers drop.

If Twin isn't what you think will both slow decks and promote interaction, what will? Ban everything else? Continue waiting years on end for new cards (that statistically will make things worse)? Is it even a goal to slow down the format and promote interaction? Or do we just concede that Modern has virtually no archetype diversity, toss a match into the dumpster, and walk away? I'm not understanding your position, unless you like the way things are.

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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

@cfusionpm

not really trying to join the debate, but I have been on this thread from the beginning and I observe that your anger // frustration.. the source.. the root of it all is not being able to play Twin. These twin debates that just keep coming back with nothing new added to the thread except toxicity. Right now, there seems to be really no chance, as wotc dislikes twin style, supporting this assumption is the immediate banning of Saheeli cat in pioneer. Maybe just wait patiently for Twin to be unban? Sfm and jace were eventually freed, who knows maybe 2 or 3 years from now, Twin will be let out again.

__________________________

On another topic. Is Primeval Titan safe to invest on right now? Or is he also in danger of becoming banned. I'm considering to buy a few, since he's affordable to the budget I have.
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

The Fluff wrote:
1 year ago
cfusionpm

not really trying to join the debate, but I have been on this thread from the beginning and I observe that your anger // frustration.. the source.. the root of it all is not being able to play Twin. These twin debates that just keep coming back with nothing new added to the thread except toxicity. Right now, there seems to be really no chance, as wotc dislikes twin style, supporting this assumption is the immediate banning of Saheeli cat in pioneer. Maybe just wait patiently for Twin to be unban? Sfm and jace were eventually freed, who knows maybe 2 or 3 years from now, Twin will be let out again.
__________________________
See my comment directly above yours as the most relevant reply. But will also add specifically to the line: "there seems to be really no chance, as wotc dislikes twin style." Inverter combo in Pioneer is still one of (if not the) best deck, alongside various Heliod/Ballista combos. If they did not actually like those styles of decks, they had an opportunity to ban them a week ago (in an announcement where 9 other cards were banned). But if they were OK with that kind of gameplay, they also had the opportunity to unban Felidar Guardian, and didn't. The only conclusion I can draw is that WOTC holds no actual core values and acts in the moment; reactionary to public pressure. There is no actual consistency or connective criteria between bans anymore. They make it up as they go, pull whatever reasons they feel necessary to the moment, and then hope to never address it again. If that doesn't build a sense of unease and cynicism towards their ability to manage formats, I don't know what does. If my comments sound dreary, it's because WOTC's decisions do not inspire confidence or positivity.
On another topic. Is Primeval Titan safe to invest on right now? Or is he also in danger of becoming banned. I'm considering to buy a few, since he's affordable to the budget I have.
I have said this for a long time Modern is a format of Tier 2 piles and yet-to-be-banned decks, separated by a vast chasm in power difference. It has never been safe to invest into anything that does well. And nothing WOTC has ever done makes me believe otherwise.

Buy into it knowing that one day it will receive another ban. And just cross your fingers that the ban isn't debilitating enough to cause the kind of cynicism and frustration you see out of other victims.

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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
2a: People used to set aside slots to interact with their opponent, as well as build entire midrange and control decks with the intention of answering the opponent, then landing a threat to win. The fact that both of these are effectively dying; related to the the bottom tables of most events (sure, a handful or two might ride the variance game and sideboard lottery to the top once in a while) is what's disappointing. These kinds of decks create good gameplay, in which people are playing WITH their opponent; not AT them or THROUGH them. Now, if I want that kind of gameplay experience, I have to consciously choose to play objectively inferior decks.

2b: Please stop putting words in my mouth. This is not the first time from you, and it is not appreciated.
You say all this the moment where Snow Midrange decks are T1? Where Jund is resurging? Where Mardu is again making steps into T2-T1 status?

I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm inferring things from your posts.

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

The Fluff wrote:
1 year ago
_________________________
On another topic. Is Primeval Titan safe to invest on right now? Or is he also in danger of becoming banned. I'm considering to buy a few, since he's affordable to the budget I have.
I'm definitely not saying that Amulet Titan is not good anymore because it certainly is, but with Once Upon a Time now banned, Amulet has been dropped a few notches. I would say that the ban hurt other Once Upon a Time decks a LOT more because they don't have backup, but Arcum's Astrolabe decks have moved up a notch since the banning. I've faced almost exclusively Astrolabe decks since.

On another note, I tested Amulet with Ancient Stirrings (again, I've done it before of course) and it felt sooooooo much worse with Once gone. It felt so bad that I decided to run some other decks for a while now, lol. :laugh:
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Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
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Post by TheBoulderer » 1 year ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
I've faced almost exclusively Astrolabe decks since.
Same experience, the meta right now is:

1) old dogs Jund, RDW, UW Control, Dredge because of course, it's after a ban,
2) people trying to make Titan decks work without OuaT

and the rest is snow. And that sucks balls.

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Post by ktkenshinx » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
How do you propose we do anything about that? Or do we just let the format die as attendance continues to drop and people don't like the linear rat races combined with constant bannings?

I care because I have invested thousands of dollars and years of my life into something I loved, and watch it spiral downward for years. Watched others with the same complaints, watched others with the same frustrations, watched events fade and numbers drop.

If Twin isn't what you think will both slow decks and promote interaction, what will? Ban everything else? Continue waiting years on end for new cards (that statistically will make things worse)? Is it even a goal to slow down the format and promote interaction? Or do we just concede that Modern has virtually no archetype diversity, toss a match into the dumpster, and walk away? I'm not understanding your position, unless you like the way things are.
Modern certainly has issues, and I am in the same boat as you in trying to find solutions to these issues. I just don't understand why you are completely obsessed about and fixated on Twin as that solution. There are literally dozens of other things we can talk about in this thread and dozens of other angles from which we can approach Modern's alleged issues. It is extremely unlikely Twin is the only thing worth talking about, and also unlikely Twin will solve all the issues.

I'm also not convinced Modern's current issues are nearly as bad as you keep claiming. 3C+ snow control variants, Stoneblade, and Jund remain very viable, highly interactive decks. I know you continue to belittle Shadow's interactivity/non-linearity, but that deck still has a high degree of interactive spells and different ways for games to resolve. As always, I believe you have a personal love of Twin and personal anger towards Wizards that has never been righted. I'm not going to tell you to personally move on from this wrong, but I am going to tell you that you should move on from a discussion standpoint. Based on what I have seen in this thread, obviously an isolated setting with a smaller sample, you have actively driven more people away from Twin than you have rallied supporters to your cause. There are some legitimate pro-Twin arguments and many methods you could use to help people understand why Twin could help Modern. In my experience with your posts and their reception, however, you have alienated many more than you have convinced. It's too bad because I believe Twin is a valid topic of conversation if approached from the right angle.

If you want to move beyond personal complaining about Twin to actually persuading people about your case, you'll need to really address some of the criticisms. Things like Veil and T3feri really reduce Twin counterplay, and I'd be surprised if there's not a potentially problematic Twin deck with Astrolabe and other colors. As GK has pointed out, there's at least debatable (and at most, questionable) upside to this unban suggestion. Offhanded dismissals of those objections don't really earn supporters.
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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

TheBoulderer wrote:
1 year ago
Ym1r wrote:
1 year ago
TheBoulderer wrote:
1 year ago
Got a nice anectote for y'alls: just had a jace resolved against me out of Bant Uro through 3 counterspells: casts Jace, I cryptic, he Veils, I Dispel, He Deprives, I Spell snare, He Veils again.

i'll say this right now: %$#% this format as long as Veil is in it. %$#% it. I'm out.
Not that I don't hate Veil, but in your example, Veils could as well had been Dispels and the effect would be the same.
Not even close, because not only did he resolve Jace, which would have been manageable with Tar Pit, he drew 2 cards in the process. He basically cast 2 cryptics for GG.
Yeah, you replace those Veils for dispels, and its just a large stack fight, when its Veils instead of Dispel, thats an absolute beating, and the game is over.
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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

ktkenshinx wrote:
1 year ago
Things like Veil and T3feri really reduce Twin counterplay, and I'd be surprised if there's not a potentially problematic Twin deck with Astrolabe and other colors.
Actually Snow Twin would probably be sick, and would remove any risk whatsoever from playing RUG or UWR Twin.
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

ktkenshinx wrote:
1 year ago
Modern certainly has issues, and I am in the same boat as you in trying to find solutions to these issues. I just don't understand why you are completely obsessed about and fixated on Twin as that solution. There are literally dozens of other things we can talk about in this thread and dozens of other angles from which we can approach Modern's alleged issues. It is extremely unlikely Twin is the only thing worth talking about, and also unlikely Twin will solve all the issues.
That's true. But I personally keep responding (rather than bringing it up) mostly because other people keep repeating, unprompted, how impossible and useless and pointless it is to even consider. So maybe if people don't want to talk about it, they should stop talking about it. I agree it's not the only solution. However, I strongly thing it is A) incredibly easy of a thing to try out and B) will absolutely do something to encourage interaction. At least easier than multiple additional bannings and a complete overhaul of the entire format...
I'm also not convinced Modern's current issues are nearly as bad as you keep claiming. 3C+ snow control variants, Stoneblade, and Jund remain very viable, highly interactive decks. I know you continue to belittle Shadow's interactivity/non-linearity, but that deck still has a high degree of interactive spells and different ways for games to resolve.
Considering several of the previous pages, I am hesitant to put any long term credence into the Astrolabe decks ([email protected] decks and main deck Blood Moon), and the "Stoneblade" decks are frequently propped up by broken UG cards (first Oko, now Uro).
As always, I believe you have a personal love of Twin and personal anger towards Wizards that has never been righted. I'm not going to tell you to personally move on from this wrong, but I am going to tell you that you should move on from a discussion standpoint. Based on what I have seen in this thread, obviously an isolated setting with a smaller sample, you have actively driven more people away from Twin than you have rallied supporters to your cause. There are some legitimate pro-Twin arguments and many methods you could use to help people understand why Twin could help Modern. In my experience with your posts and their reception, however, you have alienated many more than you have convinced. It's too bad because I believe Twin is a valid topic of conversation if approached from the right angle.
The bottom line is that none of this matters though. Go look at Reddit and Twitter and there are hundreds of people, every B&R saying Twin should be released. None of it matters. None of what I say matters, none of what they say matters. If WOTC hates something, they will not release it, whether it makes sense or not. And this spiteful and arbitrary management method has bled into nearly every B&R decision they have ever made. Find a card they, or players, don't like, ban it, make up whatever reason is convenient for the moment, and move on. Sometimes they get it right, sometimes they get it wrong, but at no point do they ever admit fault. And if their mistakes are fixed, it is usually long after they have ceased to be relevant.
If you want to move beyond personal complaining about Twin to actually persuading people about your case, you'll need to really address some of the criticisms. Things like Veil and T3feri really reduce Twin counterplay, and I'd be surprised if there's not a potentially problematic Twin deck with Astrolabe and other colors. As GK has pointed out, there's at least debatable (and at most, questionable) upside to this unban suggestion. Offhanded dismissals of those objections don't really earn supporters.
I've addressed this several times already, but people just ignore it and hear what they want to hear. Veil is a problem all around and should be banned regardless. T3feri may be a problem, but Cat Combo exists on the same curve timeline as Twin would have if resolving a T3 to protect, and basically does not exist. So who knows how that would affect Twin. Additionally, both of these force 3 colors (or 4 if they want to run both), which goes opposite of what decks running Cryptic and Blood Moon are capable of in a world where Astrolabe isn't breaking convention (and we literally just had several pages of other users complaining about how bad Astrolabe and was for the game as a whole).

These problems are with broken new cards and not Twin. I don't understand how this is so difficult for others to wrap their heads around in this regard. 2019 and 2020 is filled with stupid, broken, busted things that have torn this entire game into pieces and resulted in unprecedented bans across every constructed format that can have things banned. And we're worried about a card that slots into what is currently a TERRIBLE deck and wins with a FRAGILE combo that needs to jump through hoops to MAYBE run some of those BROKEN NEW cards? Maybe the problem here is the BROKEN NEW CARDS and not Twin. But hey, what do I care? Nobody actually reads or listens to my actual points anyway. They gloss over everything I write and then dismiss it as "u mad cuz no twin lulz." How can productive discussion happen at that point?

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idSurge
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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
T3feri may be a problem, but Cat Combo exists on the same curve timeline as Twin would have if resolving a T3 to protect, and basically does not exist. So who knows how that would affect Twin. Additionally, both of these force 3 colors (or 4 if they want to run both), which goes opposite of what decks running Cryptic and Blood Moon are capable of in a world where Astrolabe isn't breaking convention (and we literally just had several pages of other users complaining about how bad Astrolabe and was for the game as a whole).

These problems are with broken new cards and not Twin. I don't understand how this is so difficult for others to wrap their heads around in this regard. 2019 and 2020 is filled with stupid, broken, busted things that have torn this entire game into pieces and resulted in unprecedented bans across every constructed format that can have things banned. And we're worried about a card that slots into what is currently a TERRIBLE deck and wins with a FRAGILE combo that needs to jump through hoops to MAYBE run some of those BROKEN NEW cards? Maybe the problem here is the BROKEN NEW CARDS and not Twin. But hey, what do I care? Nobody actually reads or listens to my actual points anyway. They gloss over everything I write and then dismiss it as "u mad cuz no twin lulz." How can productive discussion happen at that point?
1. This should go without saying, but Twin operates on the opponents turn for the win, more so than our turn. That is why it was unique, that is why it was irreplaceable. 'Combo Control' is the same general category for Inverter, Copy Cat, and Twin, but only Twin is played on the opponents turn. Astrolabe in place of Serum, would be a slam dunk if there was a desire for playing RUG, and honestly why wouldnt you? Veil would shut down counter magic, and Black or BG removal. Abrupt Decay? lol nope.

2. There is a fundamental shift between 2019, and pre-2019 Magic. There honest to god is, however we need to ask ourselves.

A: Will they ban 2019 and anything pushed in 2020.

OR

B: Will cards that have already been banned, remain banned.

Every invested person in this thread knows the answer.

Twin wont come back, and it's irrelevant why.
UR Control UR

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