[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

User avatar
FoodChainGoblins
Level 47
Posts: 862
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Riverside

Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

ktkenshinx wrote:
1 year ago
Oh, we're still going to see a ton of MTG competitions, rankings, and rewards. It's just all going to be digital. That means you don't have to spend any money to go to a GP, hotel, restaurants, etc. and can just do everything from the comfort of your home. All profit goes to Wizards, anxious people (I feel like gamers tend to run anxious) don't have to put themselves in social situations, parties that face harassment and negative environments don't have to risk themselves in these predominantly nerdy/male spaces, and you can enjoy the entire experience either on your phone Arena client or watching it on your phone Twitch client.

Throughout this, Wizards will continue to put some minimal effort into supporting paper events, especially multi-format "experiences" like Magic fests. But the push will be overwhelmingly digital with a digital end goal.

Re: Modern and MTG's overall changes
All of this is obviously a lot bigger than Modern as a format. If you're looking to see where Modern goes from here given this direction, see if Modern aligns with these digital futures. Paper Modern gatherings would not. A hypothetical Arena Modern would. If Modern were to come to Arena, that would largely save the format. If not, Modern will go the way of all the non-digital offerings: a slow decline that ends with their abandonment.
This is terrible. I know tons of Magic players in our community that were able to "make friends" through Magic, whereas they were very secluded and desolate. I get it that it's better to have an option, but this definitely seems like a net negative.

After a long day of work on Friday, I could see many players just playing Arena at home in their underwear, rather than showering and making the trip to FNM. :\
True-Name Nemesis wrote:
1 year ago
Hate to break it to you but in case you haven't heard, byes are being removed sometime middle of this year. Planeswalker points serve no purpose anymore.

https://magic.gg/news/esports-update-20 ... s-and-more
Oh, I know it. And I'm okay with it. I feel like if you don't win your first 2 rounds of a GP, you're probably not top 8ing/top 16ing anyway. My friends tell me it's in April.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - DEAD
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Trollementals, BR Asmo/Goryo's, Yawmoth Chord
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

th33l3x
Posts: 89
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by th33l3x » 1 year ago

I want to take a moment to reflect on the month of modern since the bannings. When the bannings happened, I was somewhat vocal about my disappointment that Veil of Summer was allowed to stay in the format, and I want to get everybody's opinion on the card now. Green decks across the spectrum are running 2 in the side as far as I can tell. It's in a weird spot, because it's not as widely played as one would suspect from a ban-worthy card, and it's also not an auto 4-of in the deck that do run it, but I suspect there are is another, specific reason for that: The meta being dominated by 3 chunks of decks right now: 1) Red Deck wins (burn+prowess) at about 10% since the bannings, 2) colorless (eldrazi/tron) 3) Titan/Valakut variants.

It's kind of a green-deck-circle-jerk. Veil has folded in on itself and made itself partly obsolete. Mistaking that observation for Veil being an OK card is a huge mistake imo. 2 fringe decks, esper and grixis control that were always lurking at the edges of the format are completely gone. 8Rack too. and i'm sure there's an abundance of formerly-playable archetypes that i'm forgetting.

I feel like at first glance, the meta seems fine, but if you spend some time looking at the breakdowns, whole swaths of decks that get hit hard by Veil are completely absent. This is not really a brick-and-mortar numbers-based argument, just the feeling of a hollowed-out format.

User avatar
drmarkb
Posts: 592
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

I would draw an analogy with music. Vinyl records now dominate our entertainment stores. CDs and Tapes drove them to extinction. Now if you walk into any UK music outlet- we still call them record stores- CDs are pushed into the corner whilst vinyl is bought in increasingly large numbers.
Vinyl is paper mtg. It won't die because it is beloved, because people missed it when it was gone. It is a different experience to just listening to the music, and we have gone from a hard core of dedicated vinyl fans to the stuff being ubiquitous. Generations who never owned a record player buying vinyl at top prices. Some still don't own a record player but want it for coolness or decorative purposes, which is similar to mtg collections full of unplayable Narwals, Glyphs and Laces lovingly displayed.

Pubs in the uk have changed too. 30 years ago they were drinking establishments that morphed into dining venues. As that market saturated the diversified further. I play mtg in a pub, last week there was a tables of 20-25 year olds - both sexes- playing board games, another industry that seemed dead 25 years ago. Industries do change. Ultimately online mtg will become very separate. How long before online only standard sets? Or paper only sets? They will be different things and most people here will be completely disconnected from Arena. I think eventually a mtgo replacement for older formats will exist, something that tries to replicate the card game, no snazzy graphics just the game, whilst arena will be a totally separate game that just uses the word Mtg and has passing similarities.
Gaming is an odd unpredictable industry, the bedroom boom of the 80s showed that, it made massive millionaires out of little programmers in bedrooms, whilst big corporations floundered. There are generations of retro gamers who never played the originals, which nobody junking Atari cartridges in 1990 would have predicted. The software giants of the 80s, almost to a company, died in a few years after the world was at their feet. Atari, Coomodore, Sinclair, Tandy - how on earth did these names go from dominating to bankruptcy? It can happen to anyone.
Arena seems dominant, but it could end up being a quick on the bus mobile experience, not a competitive night's entertainment. If this digital collapse in interest ever happens to wotc as it did the 80s computer giants or 90s console manufacturers like SEGA, the cards will endure. The magic brand on digital items might persist, but whatever comes along to replace it will be as far from mtg as Donkey Kong is from Mario....

Yawgmoth
Posts: 170
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Yawgmoth » 1 year ago

There's a lot of good comments here, too many to quote.

I, like many of you, have no interest in playing digital Magic. I've never been a fan of video games (for a number of reasons) and Magic gives me an experience that I can't get with other games. I think the comparison to vinyl/mp3 music is apt. I enjoy my recording collection because I can pull out the vinyl, handle it, inspect the album art, etc. it's immersive. I really hope that the big wigs at WotC can appreciate what they have. They seem to take for granted the fact that they have one if the only non-digital games that has a global community with millions of players.

Because of this, I care a lot about the state of eternal formats like Modern and Legacy. I enjoy my weekly trip to the LGS to play a game I love and socialize with other players. One thing about Modern lately which makes me sad is that most players seem to have negative comments about the format which turns into a positive feedback loop. It's one of the main reasons I play Legacy almost exclusively now.

I think the lack of a unified community contributes to this substantially. As mentioned above, the fragmentation of the online community thanks to social media leads to weird echo chambers and less community consensus. It's odd to see that major content creators like Channel Fireball and Star City Games hardly mention Modern anymore. Legacy has this narrative of grassroots support which has maintained the health of the format over the years.

If Modern is going to survive it will be because people want to keep playing it even if WotC stops caring. The advantage of paper Magic is that even if WotC stops printing cards, all of us players can keep playing. This is what has happened with the music industry. There are the people who are happy with their streaming service and there are people who want to own vinyl. These are two different types of consumers. It took the music industry decades to realize that one size doesn't fit all.

User avatar
FoodChainGoblins
Level 47
Posts: 862
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Riverside

Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

The decrease in global attendance for Modern has me even wondering if there will be a Modern Horizons 2. My guess is no. It would have been an amazing chance for WotC to increase interest in the format and there's SO many cards they could print that would do so.

I personally think that some unbans would increase interest a lot more than they would decrease interest. Yes, I know some people will quit because of XXXXXXXX XXXX and others being unbanned, but I think more people would actually join. I too enjoy my weekly trip to my LGS to play the game I love and socialize with other players.

My strengths in this game are mainly bluffing and visual cues. Take that away and I am a very average player. :(

P.S. - for all of the criticism I've given, I have admitted that there have been a lot more positives that WotC has done for Modern. For the format to last this long, despite a starting ban list, is amazing and most choices have been spot on (yes, even the ones that I vehemently disagreed with). Perhaps WotC has decided it's better to avoid all of the criticism and move on?
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - DEAD
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Trollementals, BR Asmo/Goryo's, Yawmoth Chord
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

User avatar
cfusionpm
With that on the stack...
Posts: 1178
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: California, USA
Contact:

Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
My strengths in this game are mainly bluffing and visual cues. Take that away and I am a very average player. :(
My background before Magic was Poker, so I am very similar. I know play lines for familiar decks really, really well, but the shift to: "vomit my hand, deal with it or die" combined with complete lack of respect for opponents turned me off considerably. Especially in the sense that it's almost always strategically advantageous to jam whatever you're doing and force them to have the answer, instead of carefully and craftily playing around it. In poker terms, you can always expect the opponent to snap call your raise regardless of what you're representing. So you better actually have the better cards or you lose. This trend makes the game incredibly dull, IMO, and was the biggest reason I loved Twin (and spent years playing bad blue tempo decks afterwards). WOTC has the power to change this, but "battle cruiser magic" is apparently what connects with most players, so it's probably not going anywhere any time soon.

But as pointed out by @drmarkb, the cyclical nature of things in general mean things could turn back around at any time. And this idea (as well as no immediate financial need) is why I can't bring myself to actually offload my collection for good. I have several thousand dollars tied up in foils, promos and format staples just sitting in boxes, but I don't want to end up like those people who sold off ABUR dual lands for like $20 in the 90s.

Anyway, back to the shadows.

User avatar
drmarkb
Posts: 592
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

Don't sell, even with softening of prices you will be up on the old stuff, and some foils, promo etc.

User avatar
Simto
Posts: 324
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Simto » 1 year ago

I think it would be a mistake not to make Modern Horizon 2.

User avatar
drmarkb
Posts: 592
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

MH2 will happen, but who buys it is the question? It would be easy to rename it eternal horizons if Modern is dead.. ..

Yawgmoth
Posts: 170
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Yawgmoth » 1 year ago

drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
MH2 will happen, but who buys it is the question? It would be easy to rename it eternal horizons if Modern is dead.. ..
I'm definitely going to buy it! I loved the MH limited environment. All of the fun throwback cards and the number of powerful new cards higher than you'd ever seen in a standard set.

For me, MH represented an opportunity to work on figuring out how these new cards could fit into existing strategies or support entirely new ones. In a standard set there is usually only a handful of playable cards so the possible uses of them are often quickly solved by content creators/the community. MH1 offered so many strong cards all at once that it made solving the meta very difficult and I still think there are MH1 which have not been cracked yet.

Mapccu
Posts: 90
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Mapccu » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
My strengths in this game are mainly bluffing and visual cues. Take that away and I am a very average player. :(
My background before Magic was Poker, so I am very similar. I know play lines for familiar decks really, really well, but the shift to: "vomit my hand, deal with it or die" combined with complete lack of respect for opponents turned me off considerably. Especially in the sense that it's almost always strategically advantageous to jam whatever you're doing and force them to have the answer, instead of carefully and craftily playing around it. In poker terms, you can always expect the opponent to snap call your raise regardless of what you're representing. So you better actually have the better cards or you lose. This trend makes the game incredibly dull, IMO, and was the biggest reason I loved Twin (and spent years playing bad blue tempo decks afterwards). WOTC has the power to change this, but "battle cruiser magic" is apparently what connects with most players, so it's probably not going anywhere any time soon.

But as pointed out by drmarkb, the cyclical nature of things in general mean things could turn back around at any time. And this idea (as well as no immediate financial need) is why I can't bring myself to actually offload my collection for good. I have several thousand dollars tied up in foils, promos and format staples just sitting in boxes, but I don't want to end up like those people who sold off ABUR dual lands for like $20 in the 90s.

Anyway, back to the shadows.
So I was bouncing back and forth between a few games this weekend (mtg arena, overwatch, Star Wars battlefront II, and a few others). What I've realized is that so many games have devolved into a dominance of one shot kills or answer this or lose mechanics. It's not just magic, it's literally so many games digital or paper. I ran quite a few drafts in arena this past week and got absolutely crushed by dream trawler. That's not satisfying, especially when there are real dollars on the line.

Magic across all formats has felt like it's migrating to a similar space for me. I agree that the nuance and chance to pivot a game mid way through are slim because the cards that are bomby are just insane. Modern is no different, because people are looking to close the door consistently by t3-4.

It's nothing new, many games have been like this over the years but I feel like magic can operate at least partially in this space without them printing crap like 3 drop teferi that turns the game on it's head and completely removes that aspect of playing against another. I get their argument that you can't have games go on like Risk for hours on end, but cards that negate social interaction and the recent push for digital makes me wonder if they're going to be moving the needle in any degree in modern. I'm not entirely convinced they intend for the format to operate in the t4-5 space anymore.

User avatar
FoodChainGoblins
Level 47
Posts: 862
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Riverside

Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
MH2 will happen, but who buys it is the question? It would be easy to rename it eternal horizons if Modern is dead.. ..
I will definitely buy it if it has cards worth buying in it.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - DEAD
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Trollementals, BR Asmo/Goryo's, Yawmoth Chord
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

User avatar
Ed06288
Posts: 169
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Ed06288 » 1 year ago

Stuff like modern horizons is bad for the game. It creates burnout, forcing players to learn new decks, new play patterns, and constantly keep buying stuff. Obviously the company will do it anyways to make money.

Yawgmoth
Posts: 170
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Yawgmoth » 1 year ago

Mapccu wrote:
1 year ago
I ran quite a few drafts in arena this past week and got absolutely crushed by dream trawler. That's not satisfying, especially when there are real dollars on the line..
Same. I haven't played with any new cards since M20 until this past week drafting Theros on Arena (also first time playing digital Magic).

Dream Trawler is power creep incarnate. I was thinking back to 2012-2013 when Sphinx's Revelation was considered good and comparing how insane Dream Trawler is in comparison. It's like a Spinx's Rev that also presents a 2-3 turn clock with hexproof... insane.

User avatar
motleyslayer
Posts: 930
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Contact:

Post by motleyslayer » 1 year ago

Ed06288 wrote:
1 year ago
Stuff like modern horizons is bad for the game. It creates burnout, forcing players to learn new decks, new play patterns, and constantly keep buying stuff. Obviously the company will do it anyways to make money.
I think horizons caused one of the biggest dips in attendance in my area in a while, that set was a huge mistake. People in my area were already sort of getting sick of the power creep then horizons made it worse

User avatar
Ed06288
Posts: 169
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Ed06288 » 1 year ago

I mean modern horizons is a nice set, but the appeal of an eternal format is to learn and master all the different decks and interactions in a format. When the format is constantly changing because of bans and new cards, I think it loses some of that appeal. It may as well be standard.

User avatar
Tzoulis
Posts: 314
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

Yawgmoth wrote:
1 year ago
Dream Trawler is power creep incarnate. I was thinking back to 2012-2013 when Sphinx's Revelation was considered good and comparing how insane Dream Trawler is in comparison. It's like a Spinx's Rev that also presents a 2-3 turn clock with hexproof... insane.
This is silly... Aetherling (which is the finisher that it should be compared to) was as absurd as Dream Trawler. Trawler is better at racing because of lifelink, but Aetherling had a faster clock and didn't die from Wraths or sacrifice effects, which is important for the mirror.

User avatar
cfusionpm
With that on the stack...
Posts: 1178
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: California, USA
Contact:

Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

The most recent Magic survey is out. Make your voices heard: https://surveygizmo.com/s3/5415160/mtg?src=mxheader

User avatar
motleyslayer
Posts: 930
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Contact:

Post by motleyslayer » 1 year ago

Oh Mardu Pyro, I loved the version of it with looting but I'm still kind of glad looting got banned out of the format.

While MH1 added some absurd cards to the format, I feel that 2019 as a whole just broke Magic as a game and it can't just be limited to one format that got broken. Just a few pillars of modern (looting and opal) got banned because of a few busted cards in MH1

User avatar
FoodChainGoblins
Level 47
Posts: 862
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Riverside

Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

While there are indeed some very powerful cards (and cards that needed to be banned) in Modern Horizons 1, I personally feel that it was more a success than a failure, if only by a tiny bit.

Some cool cards were put into Modern - Unearth, Fact or Fiction, Yawgmoth, and more. Yes, some of those are incredibly low in power, compared with Hogaak and Urza. But this is where they need to improve. They should make more cards that are stronger and up to the power level of some of the top cards. What is the point of "not printing" Containment Priest or Leovold, Emissary of Trest when they printed much more broken cards? Why did they shy away from Counterspell? (Yes, I think Archmage's Charm is actually starting to see some solid play for versatility.) Why did they print a worse Preordain? I think if there's more thought given to a set like this, perhaps with former Magic the Gathering players, the set can definitely be a success.

But if you're here to tell me that simply put, there WILL not be much thought put into this set, then yeah, I could see that being a failure.

As for some cards...
1. Bridge from Below - certainly didn't need to be banned
2. Mox Opal - also was the wrong banning, but the card never really coincided with WotC's vision of Modern - a turn 4 format
3. Faithless Looting - trust me, this hurt me to see this go. I played Grishoalbrand, which luckily has an alternative in Neoform. But this card was just a ticking time bomb and completely NOT okay in a format where Preordain and Ponder are both banned, Looting being the superior card. Once Hogaak was gone, WotC made the right choice in making a format that would not be dominated by Dredge, UR Phoenix, and Red Prowess. The Looting ban killed one of those decks, made another Tier 2, and the final one got restored to Tier 1 by the Ox. I do think that Red Prowess is Tier 1 now though.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - DEAD
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Trollementals, BR Asmo/Goryo's, Yawmoth Chord
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

Yawgmoth
Posts: 170
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Yawgmoth » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
Yawgmoth wrote:
1 year ago
Dream Trawler is power creep incarnate. I was thinking back to 2012-2013 when Sphinx's Revelation was considered good and comparing how insane Dream Trawler is in comparison. It's like a Spinx's Rev that also presents a 2-3 turn clock with hexproof... insane.
This is silly... Aetherling (which is the finisher that it should be compared to) was as absurd as Dream Trawler. Trawler is better at racing because of lifelink, but Aetherling had a faster clock and didn't die from Wraths or sacrifice effects, which is important for the mirror.

That's a fair comparison but I think you are underestimating the lifegain and card draw from Trawler. I associate SRev with Trawler because of the cmc, colors, and the fact that they are both Sphinxes. The lifelink/card draw of Trawler is completely bonkers. So while Aetherling is a finisher, Trawler is card draw and lifegain with a finisher attached. Imagine if Sphinx's Revelation also created an X/X blue/white Sphinx token with flying. Trawler does that and more for the same price.

User avatar
Simto
Posts: 324
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Simto » 1 year ago

motleyslayer wrote:
1 year ago
Oh Mardu Pyro, I loved the version of it with looting but I'm still kind of glad looting got banned out of the format.

While MH1 added some absurd cards to the format, I feel that 2019 as a whole just broke Magic as a game and it can't just be limited to one format that got broken. Just a few pillars of modern (looting and opal) got banned because of a few busted cards in MH1
My best friend's favourite deck is Mardu Pyromancer. He still plays it even after the looting ban hehe. It's such a cool deck and it was fun to play against. Would be nice if Looting was banned, except if you played that deck hehe.
Hope that deck somehow can get what it needs to climb up the tier list again.

User avatar
Simto
Posts: 324
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Simto » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
That's what's been bothering me. He had two fine decks(Grishoal & Mardu Pyro). I also had UR Phoenix, another deck that the format had been adapted two. Yet, we lost 3/4 decks we had, and now there is a talk about my Amulet(which I was playing since 2015). People are mentioning Summoner's Pact, Amulet Of Vigor, Primeval Titan. I know it's not that possible for those cards to be banned, but hey, are we 100% certain this is not happening?
Is it our fault? Oh, and if you think those are just some isolated examples, I heard other people making the same complaint.

Why does Wizards have to break open decks that are fine and are the backbone of what people like in the format?

For example, Lava Dart, Aria of Flame, Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis, Arcum's Astrolabe, Urza, Lord High Artificer, Veil of Summer(although not on MH) made several people leave the format.

If you/we want Modern to become a better format, such cards should not be printed again. I am not sure people that left the format will come back though.

This all aims to be just a critique towards MH and Wizard's stance and not a format bashing. I don't think Modern is bad. I actually think it's quite healthy, if we take a look into the recent PTQ results and that's great.
Lol what? Are people pushing for Amulet bans? What the %$#%

But I agree, I've seen a lot of cool, fun and interesting decks pop up lately. That's one of the best things about modern I think, the potential variety you can play against.

User avatar
Bearscape
Posts: 231
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Bearscape » 1 year ago

Even if Primeval Titan decks are probably the best decks right now, being the best deck doesn't mean the deck is broken. Although I do think that Modern looking fine right now also has a lot to do with there just not being much competitive interest in it; I feel that if a bunch of pros were tasked to design the best Modern deck, they'd come up with something that needs to be banned. Same for Legacy honestly.

User avatar
cfusionpm
With that on the stack...
Posts: 1178
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: California, USA
Contact:

Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Bearscape wrote:
1 year ago
Even if Primeval Titan decks are probably the best decks right now, being the best deck doesn't mean the deck is broken.
While I agree with this, WOTC doesn't seem to. They have regularly and predictably removed the "best deck(s)" from the format for the entirety of Modern's life. The question is never "if" but "when." If there is a best deck, it will be removed or have something banned from it. Is there any reason to believe otherwise?

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic

Return to “Modern”