[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

Mtgthewary
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Post by Mtgthewary » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Did anyone get top 32/16 data out of the event?
Finally a really good question

Yawgmoth
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Post by Yawgmoth » 1 year ago

Mtgthewary wrote:
1 year ago
We all get all opinions of same peoples here again and again since several years now. We talk 1 page of actually decks and then 5 about this old combo. Then 1 page versus 5 again and again. WE GET IT!!!
First let me say that I completely agree with you that the constant Twin discussions can be a bit boring for those of us who didn't play the deck or who don't feel strongly about it but consider this:

1. I've only participated in the mtg online community for less than 1 year. So, for people like me this is new and useful information. I stopped playing Modern before Twin existed and started again after the ban so its a chunk of history I have no knowledge of.

2. The nature of Modern is such that the meta changes over time. We are not discussing these decks in a vacuum. An old topic that may have new relevance in the current meta. In fact, I often read through old forums (5-10yr old) to get a sense of how people felt at the time and it can be very useful for evaluating current deck lists. Oftentimes cards are considered "staples" because of now irrelevant meta choices. Re-litigating old issues can actually help the development of current decks.

3. I think that Modern is currently having an identity crisis. How will it look now that pioneer exists? I think it is understandable that people are looking to the past as a way to try to decide what they want for the future. In the case of Urza, people are trying to decide whether we want to create a future that allows for such strong strategies or we ban it. Looking to past examples is a good way to inform this discussion.

4. What type of discussion do you want to see? Rather than complain about what other people are saying, why not introduce your own discussion topic?

I understand your frustration but I think we should try to be more constructive. Or just skip over boring posts like I do and start your own discussion (like Counterspell in Modern!!! Lol)

Mtgthewary
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Post by Mtgthewary » 1 year ago

All roads lead to twin

iTaLenTZ
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Post by iTaLenTZ » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
I am trying to explain this to various people, who think it's a hyperbole. It's literally not.
During 2015, I wanted no bans, except Summer Bloom. Thought Modern was doing GREAT.
During 2016, besides Eye of Ugin, I thought Modern was doing fine, except of this, but right after Probe and GGT broke the meta.
2017, January. Modern is in a bad place, Golgari-Grave Troll and Gitaxian Probe gets banned. I defend Modern since then, and the rest of the year was fine.
2018, until the summer, Modern was fine. A good year overall. Wanted no bans. Defended Modern and argued with @cfusionpm extensively. Then, from September onwards, KCI breaks Modern.
2019, January, Krark-Clan Ironworks gets banned in Modern. Modern keeps on being broken, with Faithless Looting leading the charge. Hollow one, Arclight Phoenix, Dredge, Mono red phoenix and other decks make Modern look toxic and graveyard oriented. Some months later, MH is getting printed and Modern is broken again. First, Bridge From Below gets banned, which isn't enough that leads to a Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis ban and a Faithless Looting ban, as Modern would be broken again, as Wizards feared people were going to continue to break the format with the rest graveyard based decks.
Even at the no Hogaak/no Bridge/no KCI period, I defended Modern.
So 2019 has been the worst year. We went from 'which is the best Faithless Loothing deck' to 'which is the best Urza deck' meta. 12-6 months terrorized by one and then 6 months by the other. I am have been trying to sell out of Modern the passed 2 weeks but prices keep dropping and nobody is buying. Complete mismanagement from R&D but it almost goes unnoticed because of Standards debacles which has arguably been in a worse state.

Twin isn't a linear deck by definition but it has very linear lines of play. You get to play a linear combodeck or an interactive midrange deck depending on the situation. Its almost best of both worlds which is why I think it is too strong. Its like giving Jund a 2 card combo that goes 'oops I win on the spot topdeck'. It would very much improve Junds matchup vs Urza and all the bigmana decks but would absolutely further the nail in the coffin for every other midrange deck. This is how I feel about Twin.

On the other hand, I previously defined Modern as the format of Tron, Urza, Amulet, Devoted Coco, Valakut, Humans etc and that is why nothing will banned. A card like Birthing Pod doesn't and won't see any play in legacy. Twin same thing. If this is the degenerate format and bans won't take place than why not unban half the stuff that is less degenerate compared to what is legal? Let everyone have fun with his deck. I feel at this point it doesn't matter to even try and cater towards interactive midrange because those players will find a better home in Pioneer and will be long gone. So for the first time ever I am all in favor of unbanning 90% of the cards. It won't get worse than it already is. Every 2-3 months a new card comes out and breaks the format anyway and it takes Wizard 6-12 months to properly react. What would be the difference?

Mtgthewary
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Post by Mtgthewary » 1 year ago

We need to react faster. Ktksinx method of analyzing is not good anymore. It takes to long if we see how broken a deck is. We wait 6-12 months to realize it finally because we say allways tournament xy doesn't count. Really? We waste to much time. Sometimes it's better reacting faster, even it's not 100% sure if necessary. They print now a lot of cards and many of them are broken, they have now too more ban announcement on less time, we can't wait till all of you are 188% convinced. This method, waiting for gp results, is a relic of an old timeline which is gone. Modern is ruined all day long because we wait and wait and wait. Yes, it is because of the powercreep, but it's the new reality

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Post by metalmusic_4 » 1 year ago

If we ban to quickly we end up with more situations like the bridge from below ban that still resulted in hogaak summer. There has to be a balance, but Urza imo has reached that point.

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idSurge
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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

[mention]Mtgthewary[/mention] ...what exactly are 'we' going to react to, and how?

If you mean Wizards, well they are reacting faster, the issue is as its been for a very long time. Modern is not a priority of balance, and any testing they do is minimal and incomplete.

Proof?

Eldrazi.
Hogaak.
Urza.
W6 (Legacy)
Oko (Standard)

Yes, we still need to wait for GP's, because 'we' as players dont get to see MTGO data anymore, not the full data set anyway.

I told you all a year ago that mass ban's needed to happen, and Looting was part of it. I was mocked for it on here and Twitter. I'm still right.

That however, is only going to stop the CURRENT trash that has ruined not just Modern, or Standard, but has impacted ALL the formats that are competitively played.

Wizards has failed in 2019, completely.
UR Control UR

Mtgthewary
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Post by Mtgthewary » 1 year ago

I am on the mass ban wagon too now. Unbelievable, but times changed. Some months ago I was the one here being angry about wishing more bans, but now I don't see any solution anymore. To much they destroyed

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pierreb
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Post by pierreb » 1 year ago

iTaLenTZ wrote:
1 year ago
I am have been trying to sell out of Modern the passed 2 weeks but prices keep dropping and nobody is buying.
...
So for the first time ever I am all in favor of unbanning 90% of the cards. It won't get worse than it already is.
Just because you wan to quit modern should not be reason to advocate poisoning the well.

The solution to fast combo and linear decks is not to bring more. It's to create better answers and better sideboard cards. Or weaken them a bit with some bans.

TBH, I'm not of the opinion that things are as bad as many claim. GP Colombus was imperfect but not a disaster. I think we are closer to a more diverse meta than people think. Make Urza and tron just a bit weaker and the meta would actually be fine.

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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Mtgthewary ...what exactly are 'we' going to react to, and how?

If you mean Wizards, well they are reacting faster, the issue is as its been for a very long time. Modern is not a priority of balance, and any testing they do is minimal and incomplete.

Proof?

Eldrazi.
Hogaak.
Urza.
W6 (Legacy)
Oko (Standard)

Yes, we still need to wait for GP's, because 'we' as players dont get to see MTGO data anymore, not the full data set anyway.

I told you all a year ago that mass ban's needed to happen, and Looting was part of it. I was mocked for it on here and Twitter. I'm still right.

That however, is only going to stop the CURRENT trash that has ruined not just Modern, or Standard, but has impacted ALL the formats that are competitively played.

Wizards has failed in 2019, completely.
I think the reason they're reacting faster is because they weren't aware of the 2018 and 2019 problems until it was too late to change 2020 and maybe 2021. They could simply be trying to tell the community that they'll react fast in the future and they know problems are coming up.

It would be a departure from how they handled Ravager Affinity where they could also do nothing but watch in horror with what they knew was about to happen.

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Post by Yawgmoth » 1 year ago

pierreb wrote:
1 year ago
The solution to fast combo and linear decks is not to bring more. It's to create better answers and better sideboard cards. Or weaken them a bit with some bans.

TBH, I'm not of the opinion that things are as bad as many claim. GP Colombus was imperfect but not a disaster. I think we are closer to a more diverse meta than people think. Make Urza and tron just a bit weaker and the meta would actually be fine.
I agree with this sentiment. I don't feel like non-Urza/Tron decks are that far from being able to play on an even plane.

Its time to actually think about what this looks like. What types of responses would you like to see? Specifically, what types of cards? Targeted hate/removal? More & cheaper counterspells? Land destruction/disruption (ie Port Or Wasteland).

Are there existing cards in Legacy which could be printed in Modern Horizons II to help balance the meta?

I think that concrete demands for specific effects might actually be considered by WotC if they were reasonable. They seem to not care that much about the health of Modern so why not give us some decent responses that would not even require new card design?

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Tzoulis
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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

Meanwhile the las Modern Challenge had 1(!) Urza deck in the Top 32, 3 E-Tron and 9(!) Shadow decks.

For reference:


[mention]Mtgthewary[/mention] we MUST ban Shadow based on these results, no?
Yawgmoth wrote:
1 year ago
I think that concrete demands for specific effects might actually be considered by WotC if they were reasonable. They seem to not care that much about the health of Modern so why not give us some decent responses that would not even require new card design?
I'm all for printing Counterspell and/or Force of Will in Modern. Maybe some Energy Flux type effect. WAY better white cards, Council's Judgement, Sanctum Prelate, Recruiter of the Guard etc. Cards on this kind of power level are fine for Modern nowadays in my opinion.
Last edited by Tzoulis 1 year ago, edited 1 time in total.

Mtgthewary
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Post by Mtgthewary » 1 year ago

It seems some of us can't accept reality and they will stay in faked mtgo announcements without getting problems there. Time going out of your bubble. Is gp still not enough? Or you just kidding?

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idSurge
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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Mtgthewary wrote:
1 year ago
It seems some of us can't accept reality and they will stay in faked mtgo announcements without getting problems there. Time going out of your bubble. Is gp still not enough? Or you just kidding?
Faked MTGO? What are you on about? No, 1 GP is not enough, especially one that had 4 archetypes in the type 8.

Its certainly not enough to say 'urza must go'.
UR Control UR

Mtgthewary
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Post by Mtgthewary » 1 year ago

Lol, Allright. Can someone explain him please how mtgo lists works?

Mtgthewary
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Post by Mtgthewary » 1 year ago

Online is not the reality. Clicking with decks like urza is hard, so it will stay way behind decks on reality. I don't get it why you all think mtgo is allways a good indicator. It's not true for some decks like Kci (extreme example) in past. Time is going on there, so meta is not like in paper for 10% of decks

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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

Yawgmoth wrote:
1 year ago
pierreb wrote:
1 year ago
The solution to fast combo and linear decks is not to bring more. It's to create better answers and better sideboard cards. Or weaken them a bit with some bans.

TBH, I'm not of the opinion that things are as bad as many claim. GP Colombus was imperfect but not a disaster. I think we are closer to a more diverse meta than people think. Make Urza and tron just a bit weaker and the meta would actually be fine.
I agree with this sentiment. I don't feel like non-Urza/Tron decks are that far from being able to play on an even plane.

Its time to actually think about what this looks like. What types of responses would you like to see? Specifically, what types of cards? Targeted hate/removal? More & cheaper counterspells? Land destruction/disruption (ie Port Or Wasteland).

Are there existing cards in Legacy which could be printed in Modern Horizons II to help balance the meta?

I think that concrete demands for specific effects might actually be considered by WotC if they were reasonable. They seem to not care that much about the health of Modern so why not give us some decent responses that would not even require new card design?
Basically, what the game needs is a bunch of cards that limit the potential of threats to generate 2 for 1's, or otherwise trade at above a 1 for 1 advantage. Even things like Counterspell aren't great because they only every trade 1 for 1, while the threats have comparable mana costs, and as soon as one resolves it generates another 1 to 3 cards in value before you can otherwise remove it.

Mtgthewary
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Post by Mtgthewary » 1 year ago

Destroy target creature or planeswalker with 4 mana or less, draw a card at 2 mana sorcery seems to strong? Or is this what we need?

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Post by Mtgthewary » 1 year ago

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/st ... ure-or-bug saffron olive believe we should ban more and faster because game changed

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idSurge
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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Sure, fine. But if that is the way forward, Standard will take a massive hit, Modern will continue its decline, and the only format that will stand a chance is Commander (managed by people far FAR smarter than Wizards) and Pioneer, that they have an open window to curate into an actual enjoyable format.

Like I said a year ago, take a shotgun to the Modern, because a lot of it needs to go, but thats going to deflate prices even more, and with Pioneer here, they will not bounce back.
UR Control UR

iTaLenTZ
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Post by iTaLenTZ » 1 year ago

1 white mana instant: Exile target PW.
3 mana instant: Exile target PW and you draw a card.

The problem with PW's is they generate CA on the spot. Either the answer needs to be very undercosted to make up for it (basically trading CA for tempo) or has to come with an upside.

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Tzoulis
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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

Mtgthewary wrote:
1 year ago
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/st ... ure-or-bug saffron olive believe we should ban more and faster because game changed
I mean, the hint it's right there in the title. Not our problem you're conflating 2 wildly different things (and not for the first time either).

Mtgthewary
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Post by Mtgthewary » 1 year ago

iTaLenTZ wrote:
1 year ago
1 white mana instant: Exile target PW.
3 mana instant: Exile target PW and you draw a card.

The problem with PW's is they generate CA on the spot. Either the answer needs to be very undercosted to make up for it (basically trading CA for tempo) or has to come with an upside.
Not good enough. Only planeswalker is bad. Think about burn or you face eldrazi Tron and he didn't put in karn and attack with smasher.... Maybe planeswalker or ghost quarter effect versus lands, so you can choose. It needs to be 2 mana max too. Or another idea, 5 different legendary lands, for each color, with static ability : planeswalker abilitys costs 1 more to activate
Last edited by Mtgthewary 1 year ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Amalgam
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Post by Amalgam » 1 year ago

Mtgthewary wrote:
1 year ago
Online is not the reality. Clicking with decks like urza is hard, so it will stay way behind decks on reality. I don't get it why you all think mtgo is allways a good indicator. It's not true for some decks like Kci (extreme example) in past. Time is going on there, so meta is not like in paper for 10% of decks
Urza is not even close to KCI on number of clicks and again and has been said MULTIPLE times through the thread it was quite prevalent on mtgo. You just being ignorant of online is really showing. Also the GP result wasn't horrible like you keep going on about. It feels like you mix too much emotion into your responses.
We all know Urza is one of the best decks right now but it isn't the only deck like you seem to be obsessed with. If you want to discuss a ban for the deck at least formulate up a response with evidence and solution.
Also another note a lot of the Urza varients don't even play the thopter combo anymore with reduces the amount of clicks significantly yet they still aren't as prevalent online
Last edited by Amalgam 1 year ago, edited 1 time in total.

Mtgthewary
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Post by Mtgthewary » 1 year ago

Ban mox. Solution end. People are still surprised it won gp and had 2 copys in top 4. Yeah sure, could be anything else. Bla bla

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