[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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TheAnswer
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Post by TheAnswer » 2 years ago

Main defining feature? Are you literally only comparing Magic to Hearthstone? What about the mana system? The huge number of different card types? Myriad formats?

I still think the kind of player you are is coloring how you view Instant-speed-play. It's fine to have a higher appreciation for a single aspect of a game, just don't let your prejudices blind you. You can have a game of Magic where everything happens at Sorcery speed. Look at Humans, a top tier deck. Not a single maindeck instant or Flash card. Look at Amulet Titan, apart from random removal in some lists and Pacts which you don't want to cast outside your turn, all Sorcery speed there, too. Instants are definitely a part of this game, but they are not game-defining.

As to 3feri's impact on Modern, it is a Modern-power-level card, of course it is going to make a splash. Look at Papa Teferi and his absurd periods of influence in Standard. Cards that are good enough for Modern and not super niche-y are generally going to be good in Standard.

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Post by cfusionpm » 2 years ago

WizardMN wrote:
2 years ago
Overall, I think the overall *design* is good but this is something where the cheap cost makes the effect much too powerful. At 5 mana, it might be playable (not sure on that) but would take some work to get to. At 3 mana, it is just an obnoxious card.
I can agree with that. I have a foil Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir I use for Commander and seems fine. It's a creature that's easy to remove and costs 5 mana. A 3 mana planeswalker is just obscene to have that kind of ability in addition to bouncing multiple permanent types, drawing a card, and giving your spells Flash.


TheAnswer wrote:
2 years ago
Main defining feature? Are you literally only comparing Magic to Hearthstone? What about the mana system? The huge number of different card types? Myriad formats?
Yes. The Stack, Stack manipulation, and Stack interaction are what makes this format unique. Resources are resources. We just happen to be able to mix them, but it doesn't fundamentally change what each color or set of colors is capable of. Especially when the color pie is broken ALL THE TIME, and plenty of effects are available on colorless artifacts.
I still think the kind of player you are is coloring how you view Instant-speed-play. It's fine to have a higher appreciation for a single aspect of a game, just don't let your prejudices blind you. You can have a game of Magic where everything happens at Sorcery speed.
This is true! Most of those games happen in Limited and low-powered Standard. I do not enjoy those formats, but I could see people that would. It removes a lot of the complexities that I enjoy.
Look at Humans, a top tier deck. Not a single maindeck instant or Flash card.
4x Aether Vial? Multiple sideboard cards?
Look at Amulet Titan, apart from random removal in some lists and Pacts which you don't want to cast outside your turn, all Sorcery speed there, too. Instants are definitely a part of this game, but they are not game-defining.
I would love to see that deck function without Pacts! Including Pact of Negation, which I have lost to numerous times. :party:

The point stands that one of, if not the biggest feature that makes Magic Magic is the Stack. If there is some other game out there that has a similar system, I would love to give it a try. So far, pretty much everything I have seen for every other game revolves around all your game actions taking place on your own turn, and one thing at a time.

But at the end of the day, I'm not sure what you're arguing. That making players miserable is OK? That design which removes a defining element of the game is OK? That making it difficult to interact with is OK? That stapling on additional, useful effects is OK? I mean... I guess? This is the same set that brought us Karn/Lattice locks and Narset/Box locks. I personally think the static abilities on PWs in general are horrendously bad for a game that already has plenty of feelbad moments.

Back on the topic of Modern, what do you all expect to be playing over the next weeks? I still think something fast and proactive is by far the best choice. I will be personally jamming Bloo. I have been incredibly successful with it on MTGO. It feels extremely good after moving to multiple Forces and Shoals in the main.

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Post by TheAnswer » 2 years ago

I think you're confusing the stack with Instants. You mention Aether Vial, and talk about stack interaction. 3feri does nothing to these, as you say, "features" of the game. Unless I missed an announcement and Aether Vial has flash now, it can still be activated with a 3feri on board. (And this is actually a pretty good plan! Avoid the bounce, get to swing next turn to pressure him. Good job, you've helped get a step closer to defeating the 3feri menace!) Similarly, the stack is still a thing after 3feri has resolved. If you have activated abilities, either on the battlefield or in hand or in the graveyard, those can still be activated whenever they normally could. I'm not sure if you misread 3feri or if you are just conflating Instants with activated abilities.

I'm not sure what you're talking about with Pacts being removed from Amulet Titan. I said the deck could function at Sorcery speed, you somehow took that as saying the deck would be fine if it removed the Pacts.

I am arguing against your assertion that 3feri allows people to, and I quote, "shut off literally the main defining feature of our game". If you are stating that Instants are the defining feature of our game, I am arguing against that. If you are arguing that the stack is the defining feature of the game (which is a less hyperbolic assertion), I am arguing that 3feri does not "shut off" the stack; players are free to interact with activated abilities.

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Post by cfusionpm » 2 years ago

Ok. I guess I was a little blinded by my love for instants, and compounded them with all instant speed tricks (though it also shuts off Flash creatures, and everything that isn't an activated ability).

I still hate little Teferi with a burning passion, and I think he adds nothing of value to the game. He needlessly protects combos and plays whack-a-mole in Control matchups to see who can race to draw and resolve one first. Nothing about him makes the game better or more fun. As you said, at least Narset and Ashiok, who are also obnoxious, can only go down. Teferi (and Karn) get to stick around, going up and down as they please.

In the meantime, Kiln Fiend is apparently still a card. :party: :party: :party:
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Post by idSurge » 2 years ago

cfusionpm wrote:
2 years ago
In the meantime, Kiln Fiend is apparently still a card.
Sure is. In low removal environments its good for a few laughs how often people cannot handle it in time (aka before you untap).
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Post by cfusionpm » 2 years ago

idSurge wrote:
2 years ago
cfusionpm wrote:
2 years ago
In the meantime, Kiln Fiend is apparently still a card.
Sure is. In low removal environments its good for a few laughs how often people cannot handle it in time (aka before you untap).
It's just such a different feeling to go from "I hope I don't die" every turn to "if they let me untap, I just win." Seems like those are the two feelings WOTC wants to happen in Modern.

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Post by idSurge » 2 years ago

I used it a lot in early Phoenix/Swiftspear builds to beat up on KCI, it's a fine creature.

Was wondering if Scale up would work with it.
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Post by Arkmer » 2 years ago

As the one who brought up banning T3feri (sorry), my issue with it is probably the 3cmc and it just being a harder card type to remove. WizardMN has a good point about the creature version being fine for so long. It's not the effect, it's the cmc and card type.
bias stuff about control and Modern's card pool
Show
If you want my bias on it, it's just another UW card that vastly outclasses other control cards while also policing control. I know UW is a tier 1 deck, I'm clearly not advocating that it's otherwise. I just think this particular tool is rather stifling in regards to diversity among control lists. We can have 3 grave decks, 2-4 tribal (depending on how deep you go), some midrange is even showing up(!), but control is stuck pandering to UW. That deck is now so far ahead of other control lists that we're not likely to see anything given to control (because it doesn't deserve it as long as it has T3feri) for quite awhile; that's pretty disheartening to me as a Grixis Control player. And don't even get me started about how Dovin's Veto just shuts out an entire deck in Cruel Control, I'm sure we can all see how that list is never coming back now, but arguments for diversity are totally valid when applied to anything else.

I just look at control and think that beyond turn 6, anything can happen. Any card can be played. In many of these super fast decks your "flex spots" are still fairly stock. When was the last time you saw anyone sacrifice their own Snapcaster to Curse of the Cabal because you wanted to make your opponent hold their breath another two turns? How many of you just looked up that card? Anything can be played past T6, but of the 12000ish cards in Modern we act like 200ish are viable.
ANYWAY - Kiln Fiend is pretty neat. I'm pretty sure it works fine with Scale Up despite the sorcery speed of it. If that even matters to people right now. In fact, I think you can go T1 nothing, T2 Fiend, T3 Scale Up/Assault Strobe/hold 1 mana for Apostle's Blessing? And stay in 2 colors.

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Post by TheAnswer » 2 years ago

Not to delve too much into your points, Arkmer, because I think you're pretty correct in that UW Control has been pretty pushed by Wizards in Standard recently, but I think your point about acting like 200ish cards are viable is a little idealistic. This is a super, super high powered format. Even if there are over 10,000 cards in the format, there is absolutely no way that a large number of those could ever be relevant. The weight of such an overpowered group of cards would cause the format to collapse under literal hundreds of archetypes. It's very unrealistic to expect every single Modern card to see play at some point. If you enjoy fringe cards, then take advantage of that and surprise people with your spicy brew, but don't act like that's a strike against the format. The number of playable cards in Modern will never be a sizable chunk of the cardpool, and that is 100% ok.

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Post by Arkmer » 2 years ago

Ya, the card pool stuff is pretty idealistic. I may even call it hyperbole if you honestly take it literally, but clearly not every card will see play. It’s more the idea that I’m trying to convey in that part.

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Post by motleyslayer » 2 years ago

so with the banning of bridge from below, does dredge become the default graveyard deck again?

will new Horizons cards be able to shine now? I'd like to see Giver of runes do interesting things

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Post by TheAnswer » 2 years ago

Yes, I think we'll see Dredge will be the graveyard deck of choice (and Phoenix, if you count that as a graveyard deck). I expect that Infect will be the best use for Giver of Runes, unless there's some undiscovered brew out there.

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Post by motleyslayer » 2 years ago

I've heard people discussing running giver of runes and teferi, time raveler in infect. Teferi forces opponents to try and kill your creature on their turn and giver can protect from removal until they kill it

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Post by idSurge » 2 years ago

motleyslayer wrote:
2 years ago
so with the banning of bridge from below, does dredge become the default graveyard deck again?
Yes. A number of folks already see it as the 'best deck' though I think thats questionable with UW/Phoenix fighting for top spot. Dredge however never left Tier 1 in terms of power, Hogaak just replaced it for a time.
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Post by cfusionpm » 2 years ago

idSurge wrote:
2 years ago
motleyslayer wrote:
2 years ago
so with the banning of bridge from below, does dredge become the default graveyard deck again?
Yes. A number of folks already see it as the 'best deck' though I think thats questionable with UW/Phoenix fighting for top spot. Dredge however never left Tier 1 in terms of power, Hogaak just replaced it for a time.
With the printing of Creeping Chill, it was safe to assume that the game will effectively begin with life totals at 26-14, and possibly 29-11 or 32-8, without ever putting a creature into play or casting a Conflagrate. The only thing taking heat off of the ridiculous power of Creeping Dredge was the shakeup chaos from WAR and the spotlight-stealing of Hogaak.

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Post by Simto » 2 years ago

I've kinda' been just following modern from the sidelines the last year or so while playing standard, so I need to ask this.
Has modern always been about talking about banning a card and then immediately moving on to talking about the next card in line to be banned when the first one is gone? It gets pretty tiresome.
Does anybody enjoy playing modern? I sure do, but I don't know if I'm lucky or ignorant (maybe a bit of both)

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Post by Necrofish » 2 years ago

Simto wrote:
2 years ago
Has modern always been about talking about banning a card and then immediately moving on to talking about the next card in line to be banned when the first one is gone? It gets pretty tiresome.
Basically. The more you like the format the more you try to 'protect' it. Depending on the person it varies between "This meta seems unbalanced and I hope WotC either prints an answer or pushes a ban" to "I hate change".

I also just realized that 3feri won't even let me instant on my own turn. I play Faeries.
I hate 3feri now.
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Post by metalmusic_4 » 2 years ago

So you have to realize bannings and unbannings were VERY common in modern from its creation until about 2015. When twin got banned there was a big enough uproar to have WOTC tweak the policy a bit and the changes to the ban list are less frequent IMO now. The problem is mainly the turn four rule violations and format dominance being subjective criteria. Exactly how dominant is too dominant, exactly how frequently can you win before turn four? Very very hazy rules and they have lots of data we don't have so it leads to lots of ban discussion. And then they sometimes make things up like for GGT, battle of side boards and not fun to have around were the reasons they gave to ban it. I believe twin was banned primarily to increase the number of viewers for the protour that year, but that is hotly disputed by others. I have played modern since it was created and I personally have had decks built that received a ban at least eight times. I hope this clarifies why there is so much discussion of bannings.

At this point, ban/unban discussion is a defining feature of modern IMO but it doesn't have to be that way for everybody. Modern is a format to be played, enjoyed and loved, where anything is possible, but the mismanagement (IMO) of the ban list has created this sub-culture of fear and anger. I enjoy modern very much and most players I think do or they wouldn't play it, but there is certainly reason for the behavior you see. This forum can become an echo chamber and unnecessary bans and unbans have been called for, so take everything on here with a grain of salt. Some people dont like the meta if their pet deck isnt doing well, you do just get killed on turn two sometimes, new cards brake the format from time to time, you can't fit everything you need in your sideboard, they sould unban this, I dont enjoy playing against card X, are all the kinds of issues you will hear alot. If you are happy with modern then go play it, if you are unhappy for any reason with modern then come on here and complain about it or float an idea to improve things.

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Post by Arkmer » 2 years ago

[mention]Simto[/mention] -

I've been playing Modern since Druid/Vizier originally became a thing.

I think for awhile there was a good amount of discussion to be had about how to build some things. I managed to find a rather novel way to build both Abzan and Bant Devoted Company lists to do some silly yet competitive things. The deck, in my opinion, was very reasonable in Modern despite the occasional T3 wins it had because it was very easy to interact with and prevent the combo. Lo and behold, many decks were interacting at the time. I would say that interacting was a benefit when compared to trying to put your head down and power out a win, though there were still some decks that could do exactly that and I don't think anyone minded. I honestly enjoyed the format and noted how quickly it became my go to format over Standard and Limited after my nearly 18ish years of playing the game.

I'll be fairly specific about what I was doing; I was frequently grinding out players using Athreos and Evolutionary Leap (abzan) or I was cloning Fleecemane Lions and making them Monstrous (bant). I was really enjoying the back and forth that went on between most decks and their very necessary removal packages. It wasn't even particularly good, but it got me wins here and there. During games, I often pushed my opponent to make decisions about what to remove and stretched their cards as thinly as I could because that T3 combo was very unreliable in the face of the meta, it merely established a pretext for "I'm forcing you to interact".

Fatal Push was really doing work at this time. The card was the new hot removal on the scene. Things just a little faster and a little faster until the slow grind I had built was no longer a good method of winning, so the combo became the only means by which to play the deck (not the real reason I was enjoying the lists so much). I think it was after that that we started seeing graveyards become more and more important in a wider number of decks and a greater and greater slice of the meta. Removal sort of fell off because it wasn't exile or it didn't tuck things.

I miss interacting with my opponent beyond declaring that I have burnt them for a number of damage. I miss putting together some silly synergy combo that makes my opponent sweat a bit while they figure out how to deal with it. You can still try to Company into Athreos today, but you'll not be seeing his trigger go off much. You can still try to clone your Monstrous Fleecemane to create more resilient pressure, but the key words you're gaining are nearly irrelevant.

When I started playing Control again, it was because I realized I wasn't getting the same grind out of asking the questions that I was originally getting, but I saw I could still get that grind out of providing the answers. Well... More than a few people have noted here that questions have out paced the answers for a few years now. Personally, I'm of the mind set that we don't want better answers that Path and Bolt- maybe we want one better than Push, but that's debatable. So if not printing better answers... Then what? The only real other option to slowing things down and returning to the format I enjoyed is to ban a few things.

I wish it weren't the answer. I wish it weren't the way I see things. But it's the conclusion I have come to. And that, in my opinion, is how we've come to the continuous ban talk. Maybe not everything I've talked about here is exactly how things panned out, but it's currently 4:40 and I need to get to the gym so I scribbled this out as best I could because I think your question is a genuine and good one and I think it deserves some honest opinion. Opinion that goes a bit deeper than a quick "Yes, because the bad man made the format bad!" I hope what I've said makes some sense and I realize it's very perspective heavy, but these are my experiences and my desires for the format.

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Post by Simto » 2 years ago

Thanks for your replies. I wasn't being snarky so I'm glad for the genuine replies and not just "yes / no"

I started playing in school back in '98 (My favourite set is still Tempest hehe) and didn't touch cards again until four years or so ago. Started getting really into it again about the time of Aether revolt was released, so I'm fairly "new" on the current scene.
It sounds like I missed out on the glory days of Modern from what you guys are saying hehe.

That being said, I really enjoy having access to so many older and stronger cards. It was mainly after Kaladesh and Amonkhet rotated out that made me want to get over to Modern because, even though standard is "great" right now, I didn't enjoy it because I lost some of my favourite cards and the format slowed down. I loved that standard, but it was time to get over to Modern.
Ain't no way way I'm playing a format where I can't use my Fatal Push :) I'm really having fun and enjoying playing with the modern card pool.

I get people's frustrations and sometimes bitterness over the change of a format. The bitterness can come off kinda brash sometimes.
I guess it's just me who's tired of people squabbling online with snarky remarks and always having to try and outsmart one another and be passive aggressive all the %$#% time. It's just so %$#% tiresome. I want to follow the meta because I'm interested in it, I just don't get sometimes how people can have so much free time that they can go on and on and on endlessly about "Ban this!! ban that!!" and then go directly to a new card in the same sentence as the card they wanted banned jsut got banned.
I mean, I barely have time during the week to actually go to my local game store and play, let alone make a long ass post like this (which I just did I guess lol.....)

I am coming in kinda fresh with a positive view on an older format that has many players with deeper rooted opinions about it, so I that can maybe skew my views about it a little since I wasn't playing or following modern very closely until fairly recently.

Sorry for a boring "chain of thought" post, I just have some frustrations over people not just calming the %$#% down and playing a fun game. At the end of the day, it's just a couple of sweaty dudes playing with pieces of cardboard that has dragons and fairies on them. I mean come on, it's not that %$#% serious. Just have fun and relax.

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Post by The Fluff » 2 years ago

Arkmer wrote:
2 years ago
we don't want better answers that Path and Bolt- maybe we want one better than Push, but that's debatable.
a better answer than Path? I was sort of hoping that they would reprint Swords to Plowshares in MH1, :drool:

but that was wishful thinking. As StP is too much of a power creep for modern, giving life is not much of a drawback compared to giving the opponent an extra land.
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Post by pierreb » 2 years ago

My main problem with T3feri (and a few other new PW) is obviosuly its mana cost. You can't talk about a card in modern without keeping its mana cost in mind.

T3feri is especially annoying because he's starting to be played in decks that have nothing to do with UW and nothing to do with control. It's now a combo tool. Vizier combo list start to incorporate him and as mentionned, I would not be surprised to see him in infect. Because PW have other abilities *and* stick around, he's not a dead card like silence would be. You can play him one turn, up it and have reasonable chance of him still being around on your next turn, still protecting you.

(Note that by giving PW static abilities, they made them stronger. You get the equivalent of activating two loyalty abilities. That is, in old PW, the static ability would be a + ability.)

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Post by Necrofish » 2 years ago

I don't like 3feri.

However, I'll keep an eye on how the meta evolves with him. The best strategy is probably to never let him hit the board.
With the influx of PWs though I wouldn't be surprised if we saw some new PW kill spells in the near future.
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Post by McFluffyStuff » 2 years ago

People will always want x card/deck banned because reasons. It is something that holds back my love of what was my favorite. People are always raging about how card/deck x is too good and needs a ban(Grixis Death's Shadow, Humans)only for the deck just to fade away or have people figure out how to play against it and then be deemed fine.

Modern is considered a eternal format and with that, comes eternal format habits. Decks will become obsolete. Most decks will make attempts to lower their mana curves to make their deck as tight as possible. Decks might have their dominance for awhile and then come back down to being a tier 2 or lower WITHOUT bans.

Wizards has done a lot to the Modern format with the release of War of the Spark and Modern Horizons. To me, these two sets have made a years worth of change in a two month stretch. This is a very chaotic time with everything that feel into our laps. So sit back, hang on, and enjoy the ride.

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Post by idSurge » 2 years ago

Simto wrote:
2 years ago
Has modern always been about talking about banning a card and then immediately moving on to talking about the next card in line to be banned when the first one is gone? It gets pretty tiresome.
Long story short, no. There was a time when we as a community thought we knew the rules, but I dont think we can reasonably say that anymore, as new criteria are included, and old ones ignored, so there is not much of a precedent we can look to.

At this point, we just let it ride, and play it out or dont.
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