Post PE Metagame
One of the complaints I've heard since the Paradox Engine ban is that cEDH is now just all Flash/Hulk. First of all, is that accurate? The second thing I've heard is that banning Flash solves lots of problems. Is that accurate as well? If so, assuming nothing else moves, what does the cEDH metagame look like?
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Jim Wolfie
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To put it simply, paradox engine was very flexible as a card, ranging from combo piece for some commander centric strats, to engine piece that let you push through stack based interaction. It required a field to go off and you could interact with the stuff on board to mess with it, and it being a 5 drop really helped capped it's strength because it was secretly a 6-7 drop. running it out and then not doing anything with it was unsafe. So like if you're wondering how an otherwise fair engine could even attempt to compete with flash, we need to talk about flash hulk's deck-building requirements and what spellseeker does in this context.
So the common theory is that when you resolve the hulk, the combos you can do should win you the game. Since hulk's unbanning, we've received several cards in set releases, and also made significant innovation with existing cards, that synergize with different piles you can find. Currently every single combo needs exactly 1 hulk trigger to win the game off of, and there are multiple lines that do not cast spells, while other lines synergize with other combos to facilitate with the idea of "no dead cards in the main deck"
What stopped hulk from seeing more use than it has, is to my knowledge a couple of things People really don't like bricky cards. A lot of the piles that don't cast spells have some cards that are only salvageable because the creatures are cheap to cast, The ones that do cast spells overlap with other combos, biggest ones being labman related. Think Sacred guide +hapless researcher or demonic consultation off spellseeker with tymna beat or cantrip in hand. Like if it sounds like we could have been doing this with flash hulk for ages, we probably could have, None of us have an encyclopedic knowledge of cards so its kinda weird.
Take note that the combos used here are at best in sultai colors, but very often it was just easier to dip into white because tymna was a strong enough card for grindy decks. Paradox engine went in more than just sans-Red. In 4 color paradox engine specifically let them assemble a sort of rube Goldberg combo using noxious, twister, and a bunch of stuff to loop removal spells. The most absurd kill is tymna thras beats because you don't have access to the infinite swans combo for w/e reason.
in non 4 color, the paradox engine decks were often commander centric. I wont go every single way they used them but it was almost always differently in execution and setup. I will however list every single non pst deck that I personally would have put my life on the line for( assuming i had time to learn lines and practice.) Not every deck got hit as hard, so i'll also label them iwth my opinion on how successful i think they can be without the paradox engine
Capitan sisay - closing out stax games is hard without the engine.
Arcum -dead
Feather -barely enough playables with it, not even on my radar without it. her win cons suck.
Pir and toothy - blue and green are very strong but like this was actually annoying for this brew.
urza - similar issue to pir and toothy but like less annoying.
godo - very workable but like paradox engine was more or less a treasonous ogre that didn't destroy your life total.
Like fwiw i'm tired and have not eaten yet, so my memory of what got axed isn't complete. List is actually just longer but i'm only human
Answers to flash are twofold in practice. Graffdigger's cage, and a counterspell on flash or one of its tutors. Neither of which is a sure shot because they've often just drawn their combo parts and punished people for lackluster answers to the crux of their combo. Answers for paradox engine are much easier to source and often forced people to switch up their list to dodge a particular set of interaction. Most of it amounted to dealing with mana generation though removal or prevention.
so like when paradox engine got banned, all that got hit or nerfed were paradox engine decks. Nothing else changed beyond what flash was naturally doing anyway. Flash does crowd out a lot of decks by itself and doesn't really offer much in the format otherwise. The gameplay with it is more or less surmised as "don't blink" at worst and at best a chicken game that no one signed up for.
So the common theory is that when you resolve the hulk, the combos you can do should win you the game. Since hulk's unbanning, we've received several cards in set releases, and also made significant innovation with existing cards, that synergize with different piles you can find. Currently every single combo needs exactly 1 hulk trigger to win the game off of, and there are multiple lines that do not cast spells, while other lines synergize with other combos to facilitate with the idea of "no dead cards in the main deck"
What stopped hulk from seeing more use than it has, is to my knowledge a couple of things People really don't like bricky cards. A lot of the piles that don't cast spells have some cards that are only salvageable because the creatures are cheap to cast, The ones that do cast spells overlap with other combos, biggest ones being labman related. Think Sacred guide +hapless researcher or demonic consultation off spellseeker with tymna beat or cantrip in hand. Like if it sounds like we could have been doing this with flash hulk for ages, we probably could have, None of us have an encyclopedic knowledge of cards so its kinda weird.
Take note that the combos used here are at best in sultai colors, but very often it was just easier to dip into white because tymna was a strong enough card for grindy decks. Paradox engine went in more than just sans-Red. In 4 color paradox engine specifically let them assemble a sort of rube Goldberg combo using noxious, twister, and a bunch of stuff to loop removal spells. The most absurd kill is tymna thras beats because you don't have access to the infinite swans combo for w/e reason.
in non 4 color, the paradox engine decks were often commander centric. I wont go every single way they used them but it was almost always differently in execution and setup. I will however list every single non pst deck that I personally would have put my life on the line for( assuming i had time to learn lines and practice.) Not every deck got hit as hard, so i'll also label them iwth my opinion on how successful i think they can be without the paradox engine
Capitan sisay - closing out stax games is hard without the engine.
Arcum -dead
Feather -barely enough playables with it, not even on my radar without it. her win cons suck.
Pir and toothy - blue and green are very strong but like this was actually annoying for this brew.
urza - similar issue to pir and toothy but like less annoying.
godo - very workable but like paradox engine was more or less a treasonous ogre that didn't destroy your life total.
Like fwiw i'm tired and have not eaten yet, so my memory of what got axed isn't complete. List is actually just longer but i'm only human
Answers to flash are twofold in practice. Graffdigger's cage, and a counterspell on flash or one of its tutors. Neither of which is a sure shot because they've often just drawn their combo parts and punished people for lackluster answers to the crux of their combo. Answers for paradox engine are much easier to source and often forced people to switch up their list to dodge a particular set of interaction. Most of it amounted to dealing with mana generation though removal or prevention.
so like when paradox engine got banned, all that got hit or nerfed were paradox engine decks. Nothing else changed beyond what flash was naturally doing anyway. Flash does crowd out a lot of decks by itself and doesn't really offer much in the format otherwise. The gameplay with it is more or less surmised as "don't blink" at worst and at best a chicken game that no one signed up for.
Unban paradox engine.
Well, more or less. The issue is that hulk decks took the least of a hit off the paradox engine ban, and it lifted their comparative power a noticable amount. The biggest issue is that with a lack of paradox engine, a LOT of decks are now just not worth playing, especially since the better decks in the meta just don't care about not having it. Food chain decks don't care, hulk decks don't care, najeela doesn't care, teferi doesn't care, every T/T deck doesn't care, because they're all roughly the same amount of powerful. Removing paradox engine full on killed several decks, with many more in pretty bad places. The diversity of the meta has gone down quite a bit. As for our concerns with flash, the idea is that it's a ban that allows hulk to stay as an archtype and just focusing on reanimation routes, while taking away the random, hard to interact with, 1U turns 0-2 wins, while also being a ban that would have little to no effect on casual games, thus being a safe way to balance cedh without hurting anything casual players are playing. You have to understand, many of us do not see it as EDH and cEDH, it's all the same format, we are just the spikes of the group. Seeing you refuse to consider us in your decisions, regardless of the fact that we are a part of your community, is aggravating and hurtful. Ideally, we would all coexist as one.
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HoffOccultist
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Although I don't think I play as much cEDH as Jim Wolfie, I think the Flash/P. Engine stuff breaks down in a few other ways as well.
One thing that's been discussed on different cEDH media is the prevalence of partners--in a lot of cases it's hard to justify not having access to an extra color. Paradox Engine allowed some other color combinations to exist because it allowed sufficiently powerful generals to at least try to keep pace with the pressure that Flash puts on the competitive end of the format. For example, Green/White had two (semi) viable Commanders in Captain Sisay and Selvala, Explorer Returned. While they both weren't as fast as a Flash Hulk deck can be, they both were relatively consistent. While Selvala didn't need Engine aside for consistency, Sisay did. This might be the biggest loss from Engine overall--many fringe decks lost a centerpiece that let them exist in color identities that are otherwise underrepresented (which isn't entirely on Flash at all, given the history of Magic it sorta makes sense that Blue, Black, and Green are the most powerful colors when given the full access of cards).
Because Flash is such an efficient spell, just needing it + Hulk to go off, there seems to be an intense pressure on the competitive end of the format to be able to interact in time to prevent a Flash from going off--meaning relevant spells need to be available from turn 1 onward. And because of the way Flash-Hulk works, there aren't many vectors to combat it that are quick enough (as Jim Wolfie mentioned, it's mostly static 'yard hate like Grafdigger's Cage or stack interaction with counterspells). This has pushed some strategies that might otherwise be viable, such as Stax, to the periphery because they aren't quite quick enough to deal with the omnipresent threat of a Flash. That's not to say there aren't decks that have been able to thrive without Flash in a Flash world--I've had some decent success with a build a Rashmi, while Kess using Demonic Consultation + Lab Man/new Jace is pretty solid and popular, not to mention the other fast combo decks like Food Chain.
That said, this is all just my opinion and musings from different discussions and content I've been absorbing. I'm not a big mover and shaker in cEDH at all, just a guy who likes playing it when he gets the chance.
One thing that's been discussed on different cEDH media is the prevalence of partners--in a lot of cases it's hard to justify not having access to an extra color. Paradox Engine allowed some other color combinations to exist because it allowed sufficiently powerful generals to at least try to keep pace with the pressure that Flash puts on the competitive end of the format. For example, Green/White had two (semi) viable Commanders in Captain Sisay and Selvala, Explorer Returned. While they both weren't as fast as a Flash Hulk deck can be, they both were relatively consistent. While Selvala didn't need Engine aside for consistency, Sisay did. This might be the biggest loss from Engine overall--many fringe decks lost a centerpiece that let them exist in color identities that are otherwise underrepresented (which isn't entirely on Flash at all, given the history of Magic it sorta makes sense that Blue, Black, and Green are the most powerful colors when given the full access of cards).
Because Flash is such an efficient spell, just needing it + Hulk to go off, there seems to be an intense pressure on the competitive end of the format to be able to interact in time to prevent a Flash from going off--meaning relevant spells need to be available from turn 1 onward. And because of the way Flash-Hulk works, there aren't many vectors to combat it that are quick enough (as Jim Wolfie mentioned, it's mostly static 'yard hate like Grafdigger's Cage or stack interaction with counterspells). This has pushed some strategies that might otherwise be viable, such as Stax, to the periphery because they aren't quite quick enough to deal with the omnipresent threat of a Flash. That's not to say there aren't decks that have been able to thrive without Flash in a Flash world--I've had some decent success with a build a Rashmi, while Kess using Demonic Consultation + Lab Man/new Jace is pretty solid and popular, not to mention the other fast combo decks like Food Chain.
That said, this is all just my opinion and musings from different discussions and content I've been absorbing. I'm not a big mover and shaker in cEDH at all, just a guy who likes playing it when he gets the chance.
Survivor of EDH 32 Challenge.
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IAMAfortunecookieAMA
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Flash Hulk is very hard to interrupt. Certain decks can keep comboing out through multiple layers of spot removal, graveyard interaction, and counterspells.
Paradox Engine decks were by-and-large a lot more fair, and added to the diversity of the meta. But to dispel the myth that every cEDH player is only going to choose the most competitive deck..... the bigger issue is that many people lost their favorite deck, or a very fun deck to play (Fullmetal Narset, Paradox Sisay, etc.)
Banning flash would go a long way towards making cEDH a more fair meta, and it likely wouldn't affect casual at all. But even if flash isn't banned, the cEDH meta will likely remain diverse simply because not everyone wants to win with the "best" deck every single time. Some people just play their favorite deck no matter what.
Paradox Engine decks were by-and-large a lot more fair, and added to the diversity of the meta. But to dispel the myth that every cEDH player is only going to choose the most competitive deck..... the bigger issue is that many people lost their favorite deck, or a very fun deck to play (Fullmetal Narset, Paradox Sisay, etc.)
Banning flash would go a long way towards making cEDH a more fair meta, and it likely wouldn't affect casual at all. But even if flash isn't banned, the cEDH meta will likely remain diverse simply because not everyone wants to win with the "best" deck every single time. Some people just play their favorite deck no matter what.
Hi Sheldon,
To your first question, it's hyperbole to say literally all of cEDH is Flash/Hulk so no, that's not accurate. It would be more accurate to say that the strongest deck in the format is some flavor of Thrasios&Tymna as the commanders with Flash/Hulk as the primary win condition. I think it's necessary to explain one of the biggest problems with Flash/Hulk existing is that the window of interaction is narrow, more narrow than any other win condition or combo in the format. You must respond to the Flash or the Protean Hulk trigger when it hits the yard because otherwise the Flash/Hulk player is likely to bring out Grand Abolisher or something to guarantee protection over the rest of their combo. This same flexibility players have with what cards they're running for their Protean Hulk combo means that there's almost no way, save for meta game knowledge, to know exactly what a given player is going to do with their Flash/Hulk and that makes it even more difficult to tech or fight against. On top of all that, Flash and thereby the rest of the combo are Instant speed. Full and complete instant speed combos are both rare and powerful, even in cEDH.
It is really difficult to compare the kind of domination Flash/Hulk has over the format to any other format simply because of the multiplayer aspect, yet I still think it's accurate to say Flash/Hulk dominates the format.
Paradox Engine existed essentially parallel to Flash/Hulk and its biggest impact was boosting the power level of many decks fringe to the cEDH meta. Two notable examples of this are Captain Sisay and Arcum. By getting banned it shunted some decks back into the dust without affecting the few strongest decks like Flash/Hulk, Dramatic Scepter, Urza, and Food Chain.
To your second point, banning Flash would be a step toward evening the playing field for decks. Right now Flash can be threatened from as early as the first turn, with it only becoming more likely and more dangerous every turn afterward due to the possibility that the Flash is going to be backed up by counterspells. This puts an enormous strain on other decks in the format to have to be able to play and fight at that speed. There are other decks in the format that can make win attempts as early as turn 2 too, but those that aren't Flash/Hulk are going to cost more and are usually Christmas hands. Assuming nothing else moves, the speed of the cEDH meta slows substantially. Slower decks like stax will have a better time and being non-blue is going to hurt a lot less.
To your first question, it's hyperbole to say literally all of cEDH is Flash/Hulk so no, that's not accurate. It would be more accurate to say that the strongest deck in the format is some flavor of Thrasios&Tymna as the commanders with Flash/Hulk as the primary win condition. I think it's necessary to explain one of the biggest problems with Flash/Hulk existing is that the window of interaction is narrow, more narrow than any other win condition or combo in the format. You must respond to the Flash or the Protean Hulk trigger when it hits the yard because otherwise the Flash/Hulk player is likely to bring out Grand Abolisher or something to guarantee protection over the rest of their combo. This same flexibility players have with what cards they're running for their Protean Hulk combo means that there's almost no way, save for meta game knowledge, to know exactly what a given player is going to do with their Flash/Hulk and that makes it even more difficult to tech or fight against. On top of all that, Flash and thereby the rest of the combo are Instant speed. Full and complete instant speed combos are both rare and powerful, even in cEDH.
It is really difficult to compare the kind of domination Flash/Hulk has over the format to any other format simply because of the multiplayer aspect, yet I still think it's accurate to say Flash/Hulk dominates the format.
Paradox Engine existed essentially parallel to Flash/Hulk and its biggest impact was boosting the power level of many decks fringe to the cEDH meta. Two notable examples of this are Captain Sisay and Arcum. By getting banned it shunted some decks back into the dust without affecting the few strongest decks like Flash/Hulk, Dramatic Scepter, Urza, and Food Chain.
To your second point, banning Flash would be a step toward evening the playing field for decks. Right now Flash can be threatened from as early as the first turn, with it only becoming more likely and more dangerous every turn afterward due to the possibility that the Flash is going to be backed up by counterspells. This puts an enormous strain on other decks in the format to have to be able to play and fight at that speed. There are other decks in the format that can make win attempts as early as turn 2 too, but those that aren't Flash/Hulk are going to cost more and are usually Christmas hands. Assuming nothing else moves, the speed of the cEDH meta slows substantially. Slower decks like stax will have a better time and being non-blue is going to hurt a lot less.
Are there any meaningful statistics?
The one tidbit from the Flash SCD is that
Hulk is in 73% of Flash decks, but Flash is only in 21% of hulk decks.
Which suggests that Flash is very rarely played outside of CEDH - although there were a few folks who chimed in (and Flash is only in around 200 decks that are not playing Hulk).
Obviously adjust mentally for the imprecision of EDHrec data. but it's meaningful.
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From the last CEDH tier list I can find
https://deckstats.net/decks/86132/11840 ... -tier-list
Only two of the top generals seemed to be a paradox engine general (Sisay, Tasigur), and only two are hulk (Thrasios-Tymna and First Sliver Hulk)
Once you get into Tier 1.5 it looks pretty diverse to me. Not that many hulk decks. Lots and lots of "Combo with commander" decks.
It's basically impossible to judge prevalence though from that. And I have no idea if this list is even accurate.
The one tidbit from the Flash SCD is that
Hulk is in 73% of Flash decks, but Flash is only in 21% of hulk decks.
Which suggests that Flash is very rarely played outside of CEDH - although there were a few folks who chimed in (and Flash is only in around 200 decks that are not playing Hulk).
Obviously adjust mentally for the imprecision of EDHrec data. but it's meaningful.
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From the last CEDH tier list I can find
https://deckstats.net/decks/86132/11840 ... -tier-list
Only two of the top generals seemed to be a paradox engine general (Sisay, Tasigur), and only two are hulk (Thrasios-Tymna and First Sliver Hulk)
Once you get into Tier 1.5 it looks pretty diverse to me. Not that many hulk decks. Lots and lots of "Combo with commander" decks.
It's basically impossible to judge prevalence though from that. And I have no idea if this list is even accurate.
I can't speak for everyone, but here's what has happened in the meta that I play at.
There were several PST decks, as well as several Flash Hulk style decks, Stax decks, and food chain decls// Pretty diverse with a ton of things to choose from.
It has changed now to Hulk decks, and "hulk hunter" styles decks that are designed to beat hulk decks. I can't put it any better than [mention]Jim Wolfie[/mention] did in his first reply, but I've noticed a huge shift to hulk decks, and decks designed to try and beat the hulk decks with vary little variance. The players playing food chain didn't really come off food chain, fwiw.
There were several PST decks, as well as several Flash Hulk style decks, Stax decks, and food chain decls// Pretty diverse with a ton of things to choose from.
It has changed now to Hulk decks, and "hulk hunter" styles decks that are designed to beat hulk decks. I can't put it any better than [mention]Jim Wolfie[/mention] did in his first reply, but I've noticed a huge shift to hulk decks, and decks designed to try and beat the hulk decks with vary little variance. The players playing food chain didn't really come off food chain, fwiw.
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maynardferguson
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Hi Sheldon,
Thank you for providing the opportunity to discuss this issue! I'm one of the /r/CompetitiveEDH subreddit mods, discord mods, and a small-time cEDH youtuber. Hopefully I can try to give you a direct answer to your question:
Here’s a run-down of why Flash reduces deck diversity in cEDH:
- Speed: While cEDH has access to some fast wins, they typically require more resources and cards to line up than flash hulk. With flash hulk at tables, there is incredible pressure to have an answer every turn of the game from the beginning, giving players very little breathing room.
- Independence of commander: Flash + Hulk is able to win regardless of what commander you run. Whereas other cEDH decks often rely on their command zone to enable their combo, Flash Hulk can work in any deck with enough colors. This pushes out several decks that really work *because* of their commander.
- Difficulty of interaction: Flash Hulk dodges a lot of things that are traditionally good against faster combo decks, including removal and hatebears. Because of Flash, the meta is pushed away from these things and heavily towards countermagic, to the point where decks that don’t have blue suffer greatly.
What changes if we get rid of flash?
- Speed: While there will still be fast wins in the format, there will be more breathing room for midrangier and controlly decks. You no longer have to plan on having a counterspell up from turn 2 onwards every turn with the threat of flash gone. When a fast combo player is threatening a win, it is more evident in the amount of mana and cards they have built up. This results in having more clear windows when you should be watching out for the win attempt and when you are safe to develop your board and advance your own gameplan. Decks like Yisan and Rashmi control are able to find their place at tables as a result.
- Diversity: Decks will feel less pigeonholed into competing with flash as a win condition. It begins to make more sense to play combos that require more set up in order to be speedy or more resources in order to find grindy wins. Decks like Worldgorger Breya or Animar gain more competitive edge as a result.
- Interaction: Suddenly it starts to make a lot more sense to rely more heavily on interaction that isn’t counterspell-based. While counterspells are still important, decks like GW-based Hatebears and Brago are able to more successfully play the disruption game, and re-earn their spots at cEDH tables.
The bottom line is that with flash gone, we'll see more and more decks with different strategies, commanders, and deckbuilding directions
Thank you for providing the opportunity to discuss this issue! I'm one of the /r/CompetitiveEDH subreddit mods, discord mods, and a small-time cEDH youtuber. Hopefully I can try to give you a direct answer to your question:
Here’s a run-down of why Flash reduces deck diversity in cEDH:
- Speed: While cEDH has access to some fast wins, they typically require more resources and cards to line up than flash hulk. With flash hulk at tables, there is incredible pressure to have an answer every turn of the game from the beginning, giving players very little breathing room.
- Independence of commander: Flash + Hulk is able to win regardless of what commander you run. Whereas other cEDH decks often rely on their command zone to enable their combo, Flash Hulk can work in any deck with enough colors. This pushes out several decks that really work *because* of their commander.
- Difficulty of interaction: Flash Hulk dodges a lot of things that are traditionally good against faster combo decks, including removal and hatebears. Because of Flash, the meta is pushed away from these things and heavily towards countermagic, to the point where decks that don’t have blue suffer greatly.
What changes if we get rid of flash?
- Speed: While there will still be fast wins in the format, there will be more breathing room for midrangier and controlly decks. You no longer have to plan on having a counterspell up from turn 2 onwards every turn with the threat of flash gone. When a fast combo player is threatening a win, it is more evident in the amount of mana and cards they have built up. This results in having more clear windows when you should be watching out for the win attempt and when you are safe to develop your board and advance your own gameplan. Decks like Yisan and Rashmi control are able to find their place at tables as a result.
- Diversity: Decks will feel less pigeonholed into competing with flash as a win condition. It begins to make more sense to play combos that require more set up in order to be speedy or more resources in order to find grindy wins. Decks like Worldgorger Breya or Animar gain more competitive edge as a result.
- Interaction: Suddenly it starts to make a lot more sense to rely more heavily on interaction that isn’t counterspell-based. While counterspells are still important, decks like GW-based Hatebears and Brago are able to more successfully play the disruption game, and re-earn their spots at cEDH tables.
The bottom line is that with flash gone, we'll see more and more decks with different strategies, commanders, and deckbuilding directions
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LabManiac_Cameron
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Hi Sheldon,
Prior to the banning a picture of the meta looked roughly like this:
The archetypes that were not negatively effected were Stax, Consultation, Food Chain, Commander Focused Combo decks w/o Paradox Engine, and Flash Hulk decks. Of these, Flash Hulk is the most consistent and hardest to interact with. The fact that Flash is 2 mana at instant speed allows for players to win, usually at instant speed, with little to no warning. Specific decks, Shuffle Hulk, are designed to wait till everyone has run out of all other interaction and then to win with someone else's win on the stack. It doesn't even need to be your turn. Others include Grand Abolisher and make it impossible to interact once the Protean Hulk trigger has resolved.
Paradox Engine centric decks were also aimed at being more controlling. They needed to either ramp out mana or hold up interaction to allow them to find a spot to deploy a paradox engine and an additional spell in order to get their win in. This meant that they were actively aimed at interacting with the flash decks out there. At this point those decks are mostly gone. Which has opened the flood gate and decks that previously held Flash in check are not there any more.
After all of this, Flash isn't the only thing in the meta. However, the meta has been drastically affected and Flash Hulk has been pushed into a much more favorable spot than before. To add to this, Flash isn't the primary combo piece or the actual spell that will win them the game. Interacting with Flash doesn't drastically set them back in their game plan. If Flash is countered, Protean Hulk is still in hand. This allows them to transition on their game plan into a more controlling position as they either deploy out the protean hulk on its own or find the individual cards and push them out over a few turns.
The ways that we have to interact with Flash is either by countering it, which is only a delaying measure, or by playing some sort of stax element. Rest in Peace or Grafdigger's Cage being the primary forms of hate. If you are lucky enough to draw these in your first 8-9 cards and are able to deploy them before Flash is cast, then they are only a speed bump in front of Flash Hulk decks. They know that these pieces of hate and counterspells are what they need to work through and have prepared for it.
As such, there is very little reason to not be playing a Flash Hulk deck with Paradox Engine gone.
Prior to the banning a picture of the meta looked roughly like this:
- Paradox Scepter Thrasios (PST) - Thrasios and Tymna deck aimed at comboing with Paradox Engine and/or Isochron Scepter + Dramatic Reversal
- Food Chain Decks (First Sliver > Niv Mizzet > Tazri > Prossh) - Using Food Chain to get infinite creature mana and then casting your commander infinitely to get the appropriate resources to win.
- Consultation Decks (Kess, Jeleva, Zur, Thras+Tymna) - Aimed at using exiling tutors (Demonic Consultation, Tainted Pact and Plunge Into Darkness) to exile your deck and win via Laboratory Maniac.
- Commander Centric Combo Decks with Paradox Engine - Urza, Sissay, Arcum Dagsson, Xanctha
- Commander Centric Combo Decks without Paradox Engine - Momir Vig, Yisan, Teferi Temporal Archmage, Najeela, Gitrog
- Flash + Hulk Decks - These can be 2-5 colors but they mostly will win through a single Protean Hulk trigger.
- Control - Tasigur, Rashmi, Curious Control. These are aimed at out resourcing and slowing down the game through choice interactions.
- Stax - The classic resource denial options.
The archetypes that were not negatively effected were Stax, Consultation, Food Chain, Commander Focused Combo decks w/o Paradox Engine, and Flash Hulk decks. Of these, Flash Hulk is the most consistent and hardest to interact with. The fact that Flash is 2 mana at instant speed allows for players to win, usually at instant speed, with little to no warning. Specific decks, Shuffle Hulk, are designed to wait till everyone has run out of all other interaction and then to win with someone else's win on the stack. It doesn't even need to be your turn. Others include Grand Abolisher and make it impossible to interact once the Protean Hulk trigger has resolved.
Paradox Engine centric decks were also aimed at being more controlling. They needed to either ramp out mana or hold up interaction to allow them to find a spot to deploy a paradox engine and an additional spell in order to get their win in. This meant that they were actively aimed at interacting with the flash decks out there. At this point those decks are mostly gone. Which has opened the flood gate and decks that previously held Flash in check are not there any more.
After all of this, Flash isn't the only thing in the meta. However, the meta has been drastically affected and Flash Hulk has been pushed into a much more favorable spot than before. To add to this, Flash isn't the primary combo piece or the actual spell that will win them the game. Interacting with Flash doesn't drastically set them back in their game plan. If Flash is countered, Protean Hulk is still in hand. This allows them to transition on their game plan into a more controlling position as they either deploy out the protean hulk on its own or find the individual cards and push them out over a few turns.
The ways that we have to interact with Flash is either by countering it, which is only a delaying measure, or by playing some sort of stax element. Rest in Peace or Grafdigger's Cage being the primary forms of hate. If you are lucky enough to draw these in your first 8-9 cards and are able to deploy them before Flash is cast, then they are only a speed bump in front of Flash Hulk decks. They know that these pieces of hate and counterspells are what they need to work through and have prepared for it.
As such, there is very little reason to not be playing a Flash Hulk deck with Paradox Engine gone.
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Hey [mention]Sheldon[/mention], just to start, thanks so much for being invested in these discussions and asking these questions, it's a lot of work, and I'd like you to know that it's being appreciated.
That being said, as a cEDH content creator, Reddit/Discord staff/mentor, and competitor, I'd just like to throw my $0.02 in.
[mention]Molyumi[/mention]'s and [mention]maynardferguson[/mention]'s responses are accurate on just about all counts. The current issue isn't so much that Flash is 100% of the meta, or anywhere close (Even though it is gaining meta share every day, and is definitely over-represented), but more that while also being a very strong deck/combo, the play patterns that it creates in cEDH are unfun and not at all easy to interact with, so the short answer to that first question, is that it is definitely overblown to say that the meta is all Flash/Hulk, but the issue is still very much there..
The primary problem with Flash come from a combination of minor issue that people have mentioned previously:
That being said, as a cEDH content creator, Reddit/Discord staff/mentor, and competitor, I'd just like to throw my $0.02 in.
[mention]Molyumi[/mention]'s and [mention]maynardferguson[/mention]'s responses are accurate on just about all counts. The current issue isn't so much that Flash is 100% of the meta, or anywhere close (Even though it is gaining meta share every day, and is definitely over-represented), but more that while also being a very strong deck/combo, the play patterns that it creates in cEDH are unfun and not at all easy to interact with, so the short answer to that first question, is that it is definitely overblown to say that the meta is all Flash/Hulk, but the issue is still very much there..
The primary problem with Flash come from a combination of minor issue that people have mentioned previously:
- The combination of a very card efficient, mana efficient, and difficult to interact with combo, means that in order to combat the decks that play Flash/Hulk, any other decks need to be playing very specific and quite frankly, narrow answers that they don't necessarily want to play otherwise. The problem with this, aside from the obvious, is that these answers typically involve increasing countermagic counts, which non-blue decks (which are already struggling) don't have access to. This also has a side effect of making certain archetypes a lot harder to play, which just narrows the list of viable decks even further.
- The ability to play the combo without any consideration of what cards are in the command zone. I won't fully get into the partners issue here, but just the fact that there is no downside to combining the strongest generic commanders in the format with a combo that doesn't care if the commanders don't do anything special, means that Flash/Hulk decks, unlike other strategies, tend toward being an amalgamation of good cards plus the combo, with generic commanders, rather than encouraging good deckbuilding.
Last edited by Sickrobot 4 years ago, edited 3 times in total.
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BloodyWensday
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Mostly the meta lost some okay-ish but fringe decks, but the Paradox-Scepter variants are all still solidly meta, though they had to be reworked a bit.
The problem with flash, as others mentioned, is mostly how fast it and efficient it has become. Some of the variants include the fastest deck in the format and being able to win consistently on turn 3 or before (previously the fastest deck was RB Grenzo, but it was very glass-cannon-y).
The main three variants (afaik) are:
Breakfast Hulk - Cephalid Breakfast combo along with Grand Abolisher
Sacred Hulk - Sacred Guide x Laboratory Maniac x Hapless Researcher to deck themselves and win
Shuffle Hulk - Cephalid Breakfast combo x Blood Artist x Viscera Seer / Carrion Feeder, in order to pseudo 4th Horseman.
Two of those can win be cast and win at instant speed, while the other can efficiently prevent interaction from being used.
As for the meta I would consider the following decks to be solidly in the meta:
Urza, LHA (scepter loops)
Gitrog (Dredge loops)
Zur (Artifact storm or Consultation lines)
Jeleva (Storm)
Kess (Consultation lines)
Tasigur (Scepter loops)
Tymna x Kraum / Opus Thief (Consultation lines and Wheels)
Thrasios x Vial Smasher / 4c Rashmi / Curious Control (Scepter loops)
Tymna x Tana / Bloodpod /Metapod (Kiki Jiki lines)
Thrasios x Tymna / Hulk variants (Flash x Hulk, but theres like at least three solid variants and a bunch of side ones)
Thrasios x Tymna / Scepter variants (Scepter loops)
The First Sliver, Niv Mizzet Reborn, Tazri (Food Chain loops)
And here is a much more liberal list of the metagame along with decklists:
The problem with flash, as others mentioned, is mostly how fast it and efficient it has become. Some of the variants include the fastest deck in the format and being able to win consistently on turn 3 or before (previously the fastest deck was RB Grenzo, but it was very glass-cannon-y).
The main three variants (afaik) are:
Breakfast Hulk - Cephalid Breakfast combo along with Grand Abolisher
Sacred Hulk - Sacred Guide x Laboratory Maniac x Hapless Researcher to deck themselves and win
Shuffle Hulk - Cephalid Breakfast combo x Blood Artist x Viscera Seer / Carrion Feeder, in order to pseudo 4th Horseman.
Two of those can win be cast and win at instant speed, while the other can efficiently prevent interaction from being used.
As for the meta I would consider the following decks to be solidly in the meta:
Urza, LHA (scepter loops)
Gitrog (Dredge loops)
Zur (Artifact storm or Consultation lines)
Jeleva (Storm)
Kess (Consultation lines)
Tasigur (Scepter loops)
Tymna x Kraum / Opus Thief (Consultation lines and Wheels)
Thrasios x Vial Smasher / 4c Rashmi / Curious Control (Scepter loops)
Tymna x Tana / Bloodpod /Metapod (Kiki Jiki lines)
Thrasios x Tymna / Hulk variants (Flash x Hulk, but theres like at least three solid variants and a bunch of side ones)
Thrasios x Tymna / Scepter variants (Scepter loops)
The First Sliver, Niv Mizzet Reborn, Tazri (Food Chain loops)
And here is a much more liberal list of the metagame along with decklists:
Last edited by BloodyWensday 4 years ago, edited 2 times in total.
I think this suggests that Flash isn't the problem... Hulk is. Even if Flash was banned, there are still plenty of ways to successfully use Hulk combos in the format. If Hulk was banned, Flash would be largely irrelevant.pokken wrote: ↑4 years ago
The one tidbit from the Flash SCD is that
Hulk is in 73% of Flash decks, but Flash is only in 21% of hulk decks.
Which suggests that Flash is very rarely played outside of CEDH - although there were a few folks who chimed in (and Flash is only in around 200 decks that are not playing Hulk).
You probably shouldn't be thinking about that post cut away from the part of where the data comes from since the selection source is so small and weird for this discussion specifically because the website in question doesn't skew for deck power.Kemev wrote: ↑4 years agoI think this suggests that Flash isn't the problem... Hulk is. Even if Flash was banned, there are still plenty of ways to successfully use Hulk combos in the format. If Hulk was banned, Flash would be largely irrelevant.pokken wrote: ↑4 years ago
The one tidbit from the Flash SCD is that
Hulk is in 73% of Flash decks, but Flash is only in 21% of hulk decks.
Which suggests that Flash is very rarely played outside of CEDH - although there were a few folks who chimed in (and Flash is only in around 200 decks that are not playing Hulk).
Last edited by Taleran 4 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
Are you sure about this? Thrasios/Tymna seem like a pretty optimal combination if 3 of the best colors and a ton of card advantage and a combo outlet in the command zone.
Are you sure they don't just move to the next best combo (say focusing on making infinite mana with scepter and pumping it into Thrasios, then winning with a walking ballista or something?)
I guess maybe you pump one card combo generals like Teferi, Temporal Archmage up a bit?
Lets take your example:pokken wrote: ↑4 years agoAre you sure about this? Thrasios/Tymna seem like a pretty optimal combination if 3 of the best colors and a ton of card advantage and a combo outlet in the command zone.
Are you sure they don't just move to the next best combo (say focusing on making infinite mana with scepter and pumping it into Thrasios, then winning with a walking ballista or something?)
I guess maybe you pump one card combo generals like Teferi, Temporal Archmage up a bit?
Flash - Hulk = 2 Cards in Hand, 2 Mana, Instant Speed
Scepter - Reversal = 2 Cards in Hand, 3 Mana not in lands, Multiple places for people to interact or disrupt specific pieces
The cost for the latter is so much less intensive than Flash Hulk will ever be.
I'm not trying to say it's better I'm asking if it's enough worse that Thrasios & Tymna (THT) stop dominating the meta because they're simply very strong and flexible.Taleran wrote: ↑4 years ago
Lets take your example:
Flash - Hulk = 2 Cards in Hand, 2 Mana, Instant Speed
Scepter - Reversal = 2 Cards in Hand, 3 Mana not in lands, Multiple places for people to interact or disrupt specific pieces
The cost for the latter is so much less intensive than Flash Hulk will ever be.
There are lots of decks that can play flash hulk but THT is (probably?) the best, and that makes you ask why (despite neither one really interacting with the combo) - and if you take the best generic combo in the format away does it do enough to make enough other decks viable for a happy format?
From what I am reading in the thread THT was both one of the best PE deck and the best Flash Hulk , so that makes me wonder.
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Spleenface
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One of the things that would likely change is that other decks could afford to run creatures with useful abilities that can block Tymna. Right now the meta is so fast that casting, for example, Ramunap Excavator is decently likely to lose you the game because you tapped out. In a format where Flash is gone, the requirements to combo go up sufficiently that 2 and 3 drop creatures become much more viable, making Tymna much less egregious. Decks can still threaten to win on turn 3, but not so consistently, and not so often at instant speed, so maybe half the time you feel comfortable tapping out on T2/3, as opposed to 10% of the time where it stands now, so the cards become worth the inclusion.pokken wrote: ↑4 years ago
There are lots of decks that can play flash hulk but THT is (probably?) the best, and that makes you ask why (despite neither one really interacting with the combo) - and if you take the best generic combo in the format away does it do enough to make enough other decks viable for a happy format?
From what I am reading in the thread THT was both one of the best PE deck and the best Flash Hulk , so that makes me wonder.
Additionally, Thrasios is actually shut down as an outlet by Cursed Totem, whereas hulk just needs a couple extra mana to pile through with Neoform.
and even so, it ignores the "instant speed" aspect of winning. Many of the other decks are running at sorcery speed... Food Chain, Doomsday, most stax decks etc.Taleran wrote: ↑4 years agoYou probably shouldn't be thinking about that post cut away from the part of where the data comes from since the selection source is so small and weird for this discussion specifically because the website in question doesn't skew for deck power.Kemev wrote: ↑4 years agoI think this suggests that Flash isn't the problem... Hulk is. Even if Flash was banned, there are still plenty of ways to successfully use Hulk combos in the format. If Hulk was banned, Flash would be largely irrelevant.pokken wrote: ↑4 years ago
The one tidbit from the Flash SCD is that
Hulk is in 73% of Flash decks, but Flash is only in 21% of hulk decks.
Which suggests that Flash is very rarely played outside of CEDH - although there were a few folks who chimed in (and Flash is only in around 200 decks that are not playing Hulk).
Flash the piece that puts it over the top. We don't want to stop people from playing hulk, it's a balance we are looking for.
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Spleenface
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One fact that I think will really help illustrate how absurd Flash is:
Depending on who you ask, there are either 4 or 5 meaningfully different, competitively viable Thrasios Tymna Flash Hulk Variants
And when I say meaninfully different, I mean that you can't be confident you have shut them out with the same pieces. Some can play through Cursed Totem, some can play through removal with something like Grand Abolisher and one can even play through Rest in Peace or Grafdigger's Cage with Labratory Maniac + Demonic Consultation/Tainted Pact win lines.
Depending on who you ask, there are either 4 or 5 meaningfully different, competitively viable Thrasios Tymna Flash Hulk Variants
And when I say meaninfully different, I mean that you can't be confident you have shut them out with the same pieces. Some can play through Cursed Totem, some can play through removal with something like Grand Abolisher and one can even play through Rest in Peace or Grafdigger's Cage with Labratory Maniac + Demonic Consultation/Tainted Pact win lines.
What makes Flash/Hulk so consistent? Spellseeker/Summoner's Pact? There must be an awful lot of sets of hands that don't win instantly....
If decks can threaten to win turn 3 (even inconsistently), it doesn't seem like it will ever be viable to play something like Ramunap Excavator.
Edit to add: Also, this is only half-serious, do decks play Extract so that you can just take a critical piece away for one mana? It would take an awful lot of work to combo through something like that...
Aggressive mulligan, tutors like you said, spellseeker specifically gets either piece of the flash/hulk combo. Vampiric, demonic, imperial seal, mystical tutor.Sinis wrote: ↑4 years agoWhat makes Flash/Hulk so consistent? Spellseeker/Summoner's Pact? There must be an awful lot of sets of hands that don't win instantly....
If decks can threaten to win turn 3 (even inconsistently), it doesn't seem like it will ever be viable to play something like Ramunap Excavator.
Edit to add: Also, this is only half-serious, do decks play Extract so that you can just take a critical piece away for one mana? It would take an awful lot of work to combo through something like that...
on top of that, the cheap interaction to protect your combo, Flusterstorm, Dispel, Swan song, pact of negation, force of will, silence.
Edit: People do play praetor's grasp in some decks, like Gitrog Monster, as part of their win-condition, though, playing extract once, against one player, typically just plays king maker for the other two players in the pod... as you take away, say hulk, or food chain, or whatever piece they need, but you don't take their interaction, so while they can't win, they can still stop you from winning. Usually it's just better to play one of the above interactive spells in order to try and interact at critical times. Also, Some decks play rift sweeper, for weird times when they get something critical exiled either through say, STP or their own tainted pact/Demonic consultation.
Even with Extract being a consideration, pretty much every relevant Flash deck can still threaten fairly consistent wins through an extract, usually even two. The Flash hulk decks at the top of the format are the same speed as the glass combo decks, but they are by no means as fragile.
yeah, most cEDH games are 4 player pods, I can't remember the last time i saw people playing 1v1 commander outside of people not having enough people to play a more traditional commander game.
