Automated Commander Power Level Evaluation

[pokken]

With the robustness introduced to the parser after darrenhabib's lists, it's just a case of literally copying the innards of the [deck] tag from any threads into a text file and tossing it here as an attachment. Practical!

As long as there is a blank line between the various group headers. there must be a blank line between the last commander and the beginning of the deck or it won't correctly identify the commander.

You make a good point though it's easy enough for me to just go download them that way, forgot bout it

[Dragonlover]

Dragonlovers Golos Tireless Pilgrim.txt

Dragonlovers Lathliss Dragon Queen.txt

Dragonlovers Molimo Maro Sorcerer.txt

First batch

[Dragonlover]

Dragonlovers Monowhite Legends.txt

Dragonlovers Virtus and Gorm.txt

Second batch.

Dragonlover

EDIT: I didn't see that it needs a gap between commander and deck, but the commanders are all at the top anyway so it'll be two seconds for you to go in and hit enter.

[pokken]

+-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Dragonlovers Golos Tireless Pilgrim Raw:124 Adj:37.09063512504984 Tut_Mult:1.05 Curve_mult:0.28 |
+----------------------------------------------------+----------------------+---------------+
| Card Name                                          | Commander            |        Points |
+----------------------------------------------------+----------------------+---------------+
| GOLOS, TIRELESS PILGRIM                            | Yes                  |            90 |
| LIM-DÛL'S VAULT                                    | No                   |            20 |
| COMMAND TOWER                                      | No                   |            14 |
+----------------------------------------------------+----------------------+---------------+

+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Dragonlovers Lathliss Dragon Queen Raw:95 Adj:19.0 Tut_Mult:1.0 Curve_mult:0.2 |
+-------------------------------------------+-------------------+-------------+
| Card Name                                 | Commander         |      Points |
+-------------------------------------------+-------------------+-------------+
| LATHLISS, DRAGON QUEEN                    | Yes               |           0 |
| SOL RING                                  | No                |          85 |
| NYKTHOS, SHRINE TO NYX                    | No                |          10 |
+-------------------------------------------+-------------------+-------------+


+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Dragonlovers Molimo Maro Sorcerer Raw:75 Adj:22.960836584265156 Tut_Mult:1.07 Curve_mult:0.28 |
+--------------------------------------------------+----------------------+---------------+
| Card Name                                        | Commander            |        Points |
+--------------------------------------------------+----------------------+---------------+
| MOLIMO, MARO-SORCERER                            | Yes                  |             0 |
| GAEA'S CRADLE                                    | No                   |            30 |
| TOOTH AND NAIL                                   | No                   |            15 |
| CROP ROTATION                                    | No                   |            10 |
| NYKTHOS, SHRINE TO NYX                           | No                   |            10 |
| GREEN SUN'S ZENITH                               | No                   |             5 |
| BEAST WITHIN                                     | No                   |             5 |
+--------------------------------------------------+----------------------+---------------+

+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Dragonlovers Monowhite Legends Raw:15 Adj:3.0 Tut_Mult:1.0 Curve_mult:0.2 |
+----------------------------------------+------------------+-------------+
| Card Name                              | Commander        |      Points |
+----------------------------------------+------------------+-------------+
| AKROMA, ANGEL OF WRATH                 | Yes              |           0 |
| NYKTHOS, SHRINE TO NYX                 | No               |          10 |
| SWORDS TO PLOWSHARES                   | No               |           5 |
+----------------------------------------+------------------+-------------+

+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Dragonlovers Virtus and Gorm Raw:17 Adj:5.53 Tut_Mult:1.0 Curve_mult:0.33 |
+-----------------------------------+--------------------+--------------+
| Card Name                         | Commander          |       Points |
+-----------------------------------+--------------------+--------------+
| GORM THE GREAT                    | Yes                |            0 |
| VIRTUS THE VEILED                 | Yes                |            0 |
| COMMAND TOWER                     | No                 |           14 |
| ASSASSIN'S TROPHY                 | No                 |            3 |
+-----------------------------------+--------------------+--------------+

Note: your mono white deck had some typos

DANITHA, CAPASHEN PARAGON is coming back as None?
KONGMING, SLEEPING DRAGON is coming back as None?
HEROES PODIUM is coming back as None?
DAY OF JUDGEMENT is coming back as None?

And hope of ghirapur was misspelled too.

Comments--
Definitely look to be casual decks, but I think virtus and gorm could use some points, they're deceptively good in mid power. Probably some cards that could use some power level adjustments in there too (e.g. removal spells I think are fairly underrated).

[pokken]

Might be interesting to see how a deck I know very well fares (with a huge portion of the cards pointed because I happen to know them):

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| pokken_ephara Raw:648 Adj:432.6801586310878 Tut_Mult:1.23 Curve_mult:0.54 |
+-------------------------------------------+-----------------+------------+
| Card Name                                 | Commander       |     Points |
+-------------------------------------------+-----------------+------------+
| EPHARA, GOD OF THE POLIS                  | Yes             |         50 |
| MANA CRYPT                                | No              |        100 |
| SOL RING                                  | No              |         85 |
| INTUITION                                 | No              |         40 |
| MOX DIAMOND                               | No              |         40 |
| CHROME MOX                                | No              |         35 |
| MYSTICAL TUTOR                            | No              |         35 |
| SPELLSEEKER                               | No              |         25 |
| ANCIENT TOMB                              | No              |         20 |
| BRAINSTORM                                | No              |         15 |
| COMMAND TOWER                             | No              |         14 |
| PONDER                                    | No              |         12 |
| FLOODED STRAND                            | No              |         10 |
| MISTY RAINFOREST                          | No              |         10 |
| NYKTHOS, SHRINE TO NYX                    | No              |         10 |
| POLLUTED DELTA                            | No              |         10 |
| SCALDING TARN                             | No              |         10 |
| CYCLONIC RIFT                             | No              |         10 |
| GILDED DRAKE                              | No              |         10 |
| MANA DRAIN                                | No              |         10 |
| SENSEI'S DIVINING TOP                     | No              |         10 |
| SMOTHERING TITHE                          | No              |         10 |
| TALISMAN OF PROGRESS                      | No              |         10 |
| ARID MESA                                 | No              |          8 |
| MARSH FLATS                               | No              |          8 |
| WINDSWEPT HEATH                           | No              |          8 |
| SWORD OF FEAST AND FAMINE                 | No              |          8 |
| AZORIUS SIGNET                            | No              |          7 |
| HUSHBRINGER                               | No              |          7 |
| TUNDRA                                    | No              |          5 |
| LINVALA, KEEPER OF SILENCE                | No              |          5 |
| SWORDS TO PLOWSHARES                      | No              |          5 |
| EIDOLON OF RHETORIC                       | No              |          3 |
| UNEXPECTEDLY ABSENT                       | No              |          3 |
+-------------------------------------------+-----------------+------------+

And another popular, obviously powerful deck - darrenhabib's korvol:

+---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Darrenhabib_Korvold-Fae-Cursed-King-Bring-me-gifts-that-I-can-eat- Raw:844 Adj:609.3013269967214 Tut_Mult:1.32 Curve_mult:0.54 |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+---------------------------+-------------------+
| Card Name                                                           | Commander                 |            Points |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+---------------------------+-------------------+
| KORVOLD, FAE-CURSED KING                                            | Yes                       |               120 |
| MANA CRYPT                                                          | No                        |               100 |
| SOL RING                                                            | No                        |                85 |
| VAMPIRIC TUTOR                                                      | No                        |                60 |
| DEMONIC TUTOR                                                       | No                        |                60 |
| MANA VAULT                                                          | No                        |                60 |
| UNDERWORLD BREACH                                                   | No                        |                30 |
| GRIM MONOLITH                                                       | No                        |                30 |
| GAEA'S CRADLE                                                       | No                        |                30 |
| DOCKSIDE EXTORTIONIST                                               | No                        |                25 |
| DIABOLIC INTENT                                                     | No                        |                25 |
| DEATHRITE SHAMAN                                                    | No                        |                20 |
| SYLVAN LIBRARY                                                      | No                        |                20 |
| LOTUS PETAL                                                         | No                        |                20 |
| LION'S EYE DIAMOND                                                  | No                        |                20 |
| BIRDS OF PARADISE                                                   | No                        |                15 |
| SKULLCLAMP                                                          | No                        |                12 |
| CROP ROTATION                                                       | No                        |                10 |
| EXPLORATION                                                         | No                        |                10 |
| MISTY RAINFOREST                                                    | No                        |                10 |
| POLLUTED DELTA                                                      | No                        |                10 |
| SCALDING TARN                                                       | No                        |                10 |
| ARID MESA                                                           | No                        |                 8 |
| BLOODSTAINED MIRE                                                   | No                        |                 8 |
| MARSH FLATS                                                         | No                        |                 8 |
| VERDANT CATACOMBS                                                   | No                        |                 8 |
| WINDSWEPT HEATH                                                     | No                        |                 8 |
| WOODED FOOTHILLS                                                    | No                        |                 8 |
| VEIL OF SUMMER                                                      | No                        |                 5 |
| BADLANDS                                                            | No                        |                 3 |
| BAYOU                                                               | No                        |                 3 |
| TAIGA                                                               | No                        |                 3 |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+---------------------------+-------------------+

I finished the tutor multiplier as well (as is evident above I hope). The formula...I can't say that I really understand it fully but after joggling it around for a while I came up with something that did what I want - provide a number between 1 and 1.5 roughly depending on the points of tutors your deck has in it. The biggest tutor multiplier is around 1.38 or so (the cedh decks) and the lowest is 1 obviously. Most middle power decks are falling around 1.2.

Lots of work there adding and repointing tutors correctly, confident that a lot of them are undercosted and a bunch are missing.

[Dragonlover]

Those mis-spellings are the result of me missing apostrophes/using English spelling not American, or in the case of Danitha putting the comma in totally the wrong place.

I figured my decks would come up as pretty casual, but it's interesting seeing just *how* casual compared to say your Ephara deck, which has been honed to within an inch of it's life.

Dragonlover

[pokken]

Those mis-spellings are the result of me missing apostrophes/using English spelling not American, or in the case of Danitha putting the comma in totally the wrong place.

I figured my decks would come up as pretty casual, but it's interesting seeing just *how* casual compared to say your Ephara deck, which has been honed to within an inch of it's life.

Dragonlover

I suspect it wouldn't be quote as egregious if I had spent more time gathering data and less time coding;) Those decks are casual but they've got some cool stuff going on under the covers and definitely play some powerful cards in some cases.

I'll get there. Or I'll dragoon some folks into helping point stuff

[Myllior]

Here are my decks if you'd like to give them a run. (Left Sisay out since I'd expect that deck to be sub-100).

Myllior_Derevi's Minimum Security Prison.txt

Myllior_Kefnet the Mindful Voltron.txt

Myllior_Roon of the Cratered Hoof.txt

[darrenhabib]

If you look at a card like Sylvan Library then its worth goes up for every shuffle effect you have in the deck. It also better with life-gain. At the moment it has a flat value of 20 points.

This is what I've been considering, and rustling up some useless code to handle. If you check my original crappy demonstration query, there's finding enchantments for enchantresses or Serra's Sanctum, and a putative targeting snippet for Feather. I designed the concept with the idea of attaching a query to the card in plain string form in the database, and then it could just get eval()ed into a list of whatever doing. So, for example, for Sylvan Library you could cook up a query that automatically checks for library shuffling in card text. This is complexity creep though - what else gets queries?

Lets actually go through the process of looking at an individual card and what would be the ultimate way to evaluate it, and we can get an idea of complexities.
Might as well keep using Sylvan Library.

These are ways I've identified making Sylvan Library better in the deck.
Playing off top of library
Oracle Mul-Daya, Future Sight, Bolas's Citadel, Vizier of the Menagerie, etc
Moving from library zone to another zone
Grindstone, Thought Scour, Ghoulcaller's Bell, Thought Lash, Ashiok, Dream Render, Benefaction of Rhonas, Ancient Stirrings, etc
Knowledge helps drawing/revealing
Ajani Unyielding, Atris, Oracle of Half-Truths, Abbot of Keral Keep, etc
Knowledge helps to trigger
Atla Palani, Nest Tender, Aberrant Researcher, Aid from the Cowl, God-Eternal Kefnet, etc
Bonuses for draw
Thought Reflection, Lorescale Coatl, Niv-Mizzet, Parun, etc
Cards in hand bonuses
Atemsis, All-Seeing, Bone Miser, Chulane, Teller of Tales, Approach of the Second Sun, etc
Shuffle effects
Arid Mesa, Will Kenrith, etc.
Life gain
Ivory Tower, Absorb, etc.

This is the sort of thing I've thought about so far. But there are probably more.

So if you search for "top library" you get 1241 results.
Not all of them are relevant to the subjects I've raised up.
Is it possible to have an exact search phrase that identifies a number of them?

Playing off top of library

SPOILER

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Oracle Mul-Daya - You may play the top card of your library if it's a land card.
Future Sight - You may play the top card of your library.
Bolas's Citadel - You may play the top card of your library.
Vizier of the Menagerie - You may cast the top card of your library if it's a creature card.

If you search for the term "You may play the top card of your library" as individual words then you get 93 results.
It comes up with not relevant cards like Ashiok, Nightmare Muse.

If you search for the term "You may play the top card of your library" as an entire string then you get 6 results.
Bolas's Citadel, Courser of Kruphix, Experimental Frenzy, Future Sight, Magus of the Future, Oracle of Mul Daya.

If you search for the term "You may cast the top card of your library" as an entire string then you get 6 results.
Elsha of the Infinite, Garruk's Horde, Melek, Izzet Paragon, Mystic Forge, Precognition Field, Vizier of the Menagerie.

Are there any cards that anybody can think of that allow you to do something like this not in this list of 12 cards?
I personally can't think of any, so I feel this criteria could be met with two search queries.

Moving from library zone to another zone

SPOILER

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Grindstone - Target player puts the top two cards of their library into their graveyard. If both cards share a color, repeat this process.
Thought Scour - Target player puts the top two cards of their library into their graveyard.
Ghoulcaller's Bell - Each player puts the top card of their library into their graveyard.
Thought Lash - Exile the top card of your library: Prevent the next 1 damage that would be dealt to you this turn.
Ashiok, Dream Render - Target player puts the top four cards of their library into their graveyard. Then exile each opponent's graveyard.
Benefaction of Rhonas - Reveal the top five cards of your library. You may put a creature card and/or an enchantment card from among them into your hand. Put the rest into your graveyard.
Ancient Stirrings - Look at the top five cards of your library. You may reveal a colorless card from among them and put it into your hand. Then put the rest on the bottom of your library in any order.

We have moving from: library to graveyard. library to exile, library to bottom of library.

Searching for "puts top card library graveyard" as individual words results in 185.
Non relevant cards that appear are to do with opponents library instead, like Altar of the Brood, Archive Trap, etc.

SPOILER

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Altar of the Brood - Whenever another permanent enters the battlefield under your control, each opponent puts the top card of their library into their graveyard.
Archive Trap - Target opponent puts the top thirteen cards of their library into their graveyard.

Lets add "target opponent" and "each opponent" as string that shouldn't exist in the search as well. Results are 151.
Non relevant cards that appear are to do with combat related or counterspells.

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Crosstown Courier - Whenever Crosstown Courier deals combat damage to a player, that player puts that many cards from the top of their library into their graveyard.
Mindcrank - Whenever an opponent loses life, that player puts that many cards from the top of their library into their graveyard.
Mirko Vosk, Mind Drinker - Whenever Mirko Vosk, Mind Drinker deals combat damage to a player, that player reveals cards from the top of their library until they reveal four land cards, then puts those cards into their graveyard.
Nemesis of Reason - Whenever Nemesis of Reason attacks, defending player puts the top ten cards of their library into their graveyard.
Psychic Strike - Counter target spell. Its controller puts the top two cards of their library into their graveyard.
Reef Pirates - Whenever Reef Pirates deals damage to an opponent, that player puts the top card of their library into their graveyard.
Riddlekeeper - Whenever a creature attacks you or a planeswalker you control, that creature's controller puts the top two cards of their library into their graveyard.
Screeching Silcaw - Whenever Screeching Silcaw deals combat damage to a player, if you control three or more artifacts, that player puts the top four cards of their library into their graveyard.
Shriekgeist - Whenever Shriekgeist deals combat damage to a player, that player puts the top two cards of their library into their graveyard.
Sword of Body and Mind - Whenever equipped creature deals combat damage to a player, you create a 2/2 green Wolf creature token and that player puts the top ten cards of their library into their graveyard.
Szadek, Lord of Secrets - If Szadek, Lord of Secrets would deal combat damage to a player, instead put that many +1/+1 counters on Szadek and that player puts that many cards from the top of their library into their graveyard.
Thought Collapse - Counter target spell. Its controller puts the top three cards of their library into their graveyard.
Undead Alchemist - If a Zombie you control would deal combat damage to a player, instead that player puts that many cards from the top of their library into their graveyard.
Woodland Guidance - Return target card from your graveyard to your hand. Clash with an opponent. If you win, untap all Forests you control. (Each clashing player reveals the top card of their library, then puts that card on the top or bottom. A player wins if their card had a higher converted mana cost.)

Alright so the wording for a lot of these is different, and no hard solid search terms to rule out.
Lets say one is to exclude those that have "combat damage". But I've also identified some cards that will be excluded on this criteria incorrectly as well.

SPOILER

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Eye Collector - Whenever Eye Collector deals combat damage to a player, each player puts the top card of their library into their graveyard.
Mindscour Dragon - Whenever Mindscour Dragon deals combat damage to an opponent, target player puts the top four cards of their library into their graveyard.

Also of note Ashiok, Dream Render will get filtered out because it has the term "each opponent". There are probably more, but just to highlight problems of finding including and excluding terms for searches.
Ashiok, Dream Render - Target player puts the top four cards of their library into their graveyard. Then exile each opponent's graveyard.

---

I'll leave it there for the mean time. We'll hypothetically look at later search terms for:

• Knowledge helps drawing/revealing
• Knowledge helps to trigger
• Bonuses for draw
• Cards in hand bonuses
• Shuffle effects
• Life gain

But I guess we are already seeing the complexity of search terms for a given idea.
Its always possible to flag cards that would seem problematic, but already this is such a manual process that is it really any less work to just include a full list of card synergy in the dataset, rather than trying to figure out perfect search terms?

Anyway I think this process is important to go through to figure out feasibility of figuring out ways to figure out more accurate ways of evaluating cards within a deck build.

[Rumpy5897]

...and at the end of all that, you get some heuristically chosen numerical value amplified with some heuristically chosen effectiveness curve anyway I go back and forth on this card multiplier stuff. A perfect system would obviously use it. But for now at least, it's probably more important to figure out a way to combine the different modules together and acknowledge Avenger of Zendikar is more useful than Thorn Elemental. From a pragmatic perspective, this is where the system will finish.

That said, that was a lovely breakdown that indulged my vacuum spitballing like a charm. It would be better to go for queries than card lists in this hypothetical scenario as new stuff can get released, making maintenance easier. New classes of effects are ultimately not that common.

[pokken]

Its always possible to flag cards that would seem problematic, but already this is such a manual process that is it really any less work to just include a full list of card synergy in the dataset, rather than trying to figure out perfect search terms?

Anyway I think this process is important to go through to figure out feasibility of figuring out ways to figure out more accurate ways of evaluating cards within a deck build.

Yeah, this is basically right where I am at -- there are few enough cards and few enough interactions that generating a synergy list is likely going to be easier than trying to use NLP or pattern matching to understand what magic cards mean when combined with each other. It's just very complex to look at two cards and understand if they're good together.

That said, if we confine ourselves to tagging the individually pointable cards we could probably do a very good job. For instance, imagine if we go through our dataset of say 1000-2000 curated cards and add the "shuffle" tag to every one that is a meaningful shuffle effect, such as ponder and scalding tarn.

Then, if we have a synergy notation like Sylvan Library synergizes with "tag:shuffle" with a value of +1 point per effect, it becomes very easy to compute that. Simply add a point for every shuffle effect in a deck that has a library. Then do the same with sensei's divining top or whatever.

You could probably generate a list of 20-ish meaningful tags, such as :

• Shuffle
• Top
• Landfall
• Tribal
• Lifegain
• Storm
• Recursion
• Dredge
• Draw
• Death
• Etb
• Sacrifice
• Stax

And so on. Then your synergy scenarios could tie into that.

That opens the doors to put 0 point cards in that only exist for synergy scores as well, in theory.

It's going to be a while before I get the basics to the point I'm ready to do that but the groundwork is laid for the tags concept.

[Dragoon]

I'll repost my deck here, since it seems like it got lost in the shuffle and I'm curious at his score

Golos_Erratic_Pilgrimages.txt

[pokken]

I'll repost my deck here, since it seems like it got lost in the shuffle and I'm curious at his score
Golos_Erratic_Pilgrimages.txt

Thanks!

+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Dragoon_Golos_Erratic_Pilgrimages Raw:248 Adj:49.6 Tut_Mult:1.0 Curve_mult:0.2 |
+-------------------------------------------+-------------------+-------------+
| Card Name                                 | Commander         |      Points |
+-------------------------------------------+-------------------+-------------+
| GOLOS, TIRELESS PILGRIM                   | Yes               |          90 |
| MANA CRYPT                                | No                |         100 |
| COMMAND TOWER                             | No                |          14 |
| CITY OF BRASS                             | No                |          12 |
| FORBIDDEN ORCHARD                         | No                |          10 |
| GEMSTONE CAVERNS                          | No                |          10 |
| CHAOS WARP                                | No                |           5 |
| MORPHIC POOL                              | No                |           2 |
| SEA OF CLOUDS                             | No                |           2 |
| BOUNTIFUL PROMENADE                       | No                |           1 |
| LUXURY SUITE                              | No                |           1 |
| SPIRE GARDEN                              | No                |           1 |
+-------------------------------------------+-------------------+-------------+

Hrm. This one is interesting, - it got dinged really hard on curve (4.5) and gets most of its positive points from golos and a strong manabase. It's missing a sol ring which is confusing given it has a mana crypt. All in all decks like this make me think Golos is probably stronger than I have scored it, and probably our curve logic needs some refinement. The curve ding for some of these decks that don't care that much about their curves is a bit excessive.

there're a few cards that jump out at me as probably being deserving of a few points--

• coiling oracle
• jalira, master polymorphist
• lurking predators
• maelstrom wanderer
• mind's dilation
• Risen Reef
• Selvala, Explorer Returned
• Urza, Lord High Artificer
• etali, primal storm
• flamekin village
• Elvish Rejuvenator

But overall my assessment is this is a pretty causal deck that's probably not *that* far underrated - the curve penalty is probably doing the most damage. I do think that decks that would probably rate 5/10 or less are the ones that are not getting assessed that well.

[MrMystery314]

Try this for size:

//play-1
1 Grusilda, Monster Masher

//deck-1
1 Abrade
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Anger
1 Animate Dead
1 Arcane Signet
1 Arid Mesa
1 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Azra Oddsmaker
1 Badlands
1 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 Big Game Hunter
1 Blood Artist
1 Blood Crypt
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Buried Alive
1 Butcher Ghoul
1 Cabal Ritual
1 Chainer, Nightmare Adept
1 Chaos Warp
1 Chrome Mox
1 City of Brass
1 Coalition Relic
1 Command Tower
1 Dance of the Dead
1 Dark Ritual
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Dismember
1 Dockside Extortionist
1 Dragonskull Summit
1 Entomb
1 Exhume
1 Faithless Looting
1 Fellwar Stone
1 Fulminator Mage
1 Gamble
1 Graven Cairns
1 Cut // Ribbons
1 Imp's Mischief
1 Imperial Recruiter
1 Imperial Seal
1 Ingot Chewer
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Living Death
1 Lotus Petal
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Magus of the Wheel
1 Underworld Breach
1 Mana Confluence
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Marsh Flats
1 Mausoleum Secrets
1 Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
1 Mogg Fanatic
6 Mountain
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Necromancy
1 Necrotic Ooze
1 Night's Whisper
1 Phyrexian Delver
1 Pyroblast
1 Reanimate
1 Rix Maadi Reveler
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
1 Sire of Insanity
1 Smoldering Marsh
1 Sol Ring
1 Stitcher's Supplier
1 Sulfurous Springs
1 Sunscorched Desert
1 Thrill of Possibility
6 Swamp
1 Talisman of Indulgence
1 Thoughtseize
1 Torch Courier
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Triskelion
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Victimize
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Zealous Conscripts

[pokken]

Will be tomorrow.

[Dragoon]

+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Dragoon_Golos_Erratic_Pilgrimages Raw:248 Adj:49.6 Tut_Mult:1.0 Curve_mult:0.2 |
+-------------------------------------------+-------------------+-------------+
| Card Name                                 | Commander         |      Points |
+-------------------------------------------+-------------------+-------------+
| GOLOS, TIRELESS PILGRIM                   | Yes               |          90 |
| MANA CRYPT                                | No                |         100 |
| COMMAND TOWER                             | No                |          14 |
| CITY OF BRASS                             | No                |          12 |
| FORBIDDEN ORCHARD                         | No                |          10 |
| GEMSTONE CAVERNS                          | No                |          10 |
| CHAOS WARP                                | No                |           5 |
| MORPHIC POOL                              | No                |           2 |
| SEA OF CLOUDS                             | No                |           2 |
| BOUNTIFUL PROMENADE                       | No                |           1 |
| LUXURY SUITE                              | No                |           1 |
| SPIRE GARDEN                              | No                |           1 |
+-------------------------------------------+-------------------+-------------+

Hrm. This one is interesting, - it got dinged really hard on curve (4.5) and gets most of its positive points from golos and a strong manabase. It's missing a sol ring which is confusing given it has a mana crypt. All in all decks like this make me think Golos is probably stronger than I have scored it, and probably our curve logic needs some refinement. The curve ding for some of these decks that don't care that much about their curves is a bit excessive.

there're a few cards that jump out at me as probably being deserving of a few points--

• coiling oracle
• jalira, master polymorphist
• lurking predators
• maelstrom wanderer
• mind's dilation
• Risen Reef
• Selvala, Explorer Returned
• Urza, Lord High Artificer
• etali, primal storm
• flamekin village
• Elvish Rejuvenator

But overall my assessment is this is a pretty causal deck that's probably not *that* far underrated - the curve penalty is probably doing the most damage. I do think that decks that would probably rate 5/10 or less are the ones that are not getting assessed that well.

Thanks! That seems to be in a reasonable ballpark. This is a theme deck comprised of nonland cards with random effects but some of those cards are quite powerful and can make the deck look scarier than it really is (well, at least in my opinion). 50 still seems a bit low though, I win games sometimes!

For points, I definitely feel like Lurking Predators, Maelstrom Wanderer, Mind's Dilation, Urza, Lord High Artificer and Etali, Primal Storm all deserve to get some. The rest doesn't strike me at doing enough on its own to warrant points. If you intent to abuse Jalira, Master Polymorphist, that means you are probably playing some big creatures that will already score points. If you're abusing Coiling Oracle or Elvish Rejuvenator, that means you probably have blink engines that should also already score points. Elemental tribal has probably some better payoff than Flamekin Village, but Risen Reef might be worth a point or two.

Concerning the curve, there are a bunch of cards in the deck that can let you cheat mana costs so the problem is partially offset. Do you think it might be a good idea to refine the curve multiplier when such cards are present in the deck, especially when it also includes the commander?

For some reason, the tappedout competitive meter doesn't show up for this deck so I can't give you its score there for comparison (even if the one from tappedout seems to be overly simplistic)

[pokken]

Try this for size:

<Tuned Grusilda deck>

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| MrMystery_GrusildaReanimator Raw:882 Adj:702.5633612459262 Tut_Mult:1.38 Curve_mult:0.58 |
+--------------------------------------------------+--------------------+--------------+
| Card Name                                        | Commander          |       Points |
+--------------------------------------------------+--------------------+--------------+
| GRUSILDA, MONSTER MASHER                         | Yes                |            0 |
| MANA CRYPT                                       | No                 |          100 |
| SOL RING                                         | No                 |           85 |
| DARK RITUAL                                      | No                 |           60 |
| DEMONIC TUTOR                                    | No                 |           60 |
| MANA VAULT                                       | No                 |           60 |
| VAMPIRIC TUTOR                                   | No                 |           60 |
| CABAL RITUAL                                     | No                 |           40 |
| CHROME MOX                                       | No                 |           35 |
| UNDERWORLD BREACH                                | No                 |           30 |
| YAWGMOTH'S WILL                                  | No                 |           30 |
| DIABOLIC INTENT                                  | No                 |           25 |
| DOCKSIDE EXTORTIONIST                            | No                 |           25 |
| IMPERIAL SEAL                                    | No                 |           25 |
| WHEEL OF FORTUNE                                 | No                 |           25 |
| ANCIENT TOMB                                     | No                 |           20 |
| ARCANE SIGNET                                    | No                 |           20 |
| GAMBLE                                           | No                 |           20 |
| LOTUS PETAL                                      | No                 |           20 |
| FELLWAR STONE                                    | No                 |           18 |
| COMMAND TOWER                                    | No                 |           14 |
| CITY OF BRASS                                    | No                 |           12 |
| MANA CONFLUENCE                                  | No                 |           12 |
| ENTOMB                                           | No                 |           10 |
| SCALDING TARN                                    | No                 |           10 |
| ARID MESA                                        | No                 |            8 |
| BLOODSTAINED MIRE                                | No                 |            8 |
| MARSH FLATS                                      | No                 |            8 |
| TALISMAN OF INDULGENCE                           | No                 |            8 |
| VERDANT CATACOMBS                                | No                 |            8 |
| CHAOS WARP                                       | No                 |            5 |
| KIKI-JIKI, MIRROR BREAKER                        | No                 |            5 |
| PYROBLAST                                        | No                 |            5 |
| TOXIC DELUGE                                     | No                 |            5 |
| BADLANDS                                         | No                 |            3 |
| MAGUS OF THE MOON                                | No                 |            3 |
+--------------------------------------------------+--------------------+--------------+

Pretty close to what I'd expect. Some points are probably off and there are some things in there that need to be added (reanimation spells!!) but it's clearly a very tuned deck with a strong gameplan, loses some points due to the generally weaker commander (and being silver bordered I don't know that I'll score it, maybe some day someone will ).

Tuned decks between 6 and 8 seem to be the most readily identifiable via this approach.

Concerning the curve, there are a bunch of cards in the deck that can let you cheat mana costs so the problem is partially offset. Do you think it might be a good idea to refine the curve multiplier when such cards are present in the deck, especially when it also includes the commander?

For some reason, the tappedout competitive meter doesn't show up for this deck so I can't give you its score there for comparison (even if the one from tappedout seems to be overly simplistic)

Yeah, one of my thoughts on that is to tag cards that cheat mana costs like maelstrom wanderer in a way that identifies them so we can identify those themes. That's a bit of a way off but it's a very good insight.

[Dragonlover]

I know it costs roughly a billion mana as standard, but I feel that The Great Henge should get a score somewhere in the 5-10 bracket. Like, it's not as good as an Arcane Signet, but I'd argue that it'll do as much as, if not more than a Chaos Warp.

Dragonlover

[pokken]

I know it costs roughly a billion mana as standard, but I feel that The Great Henge should get a score somewhere in the 5-10 bracket. Like, it's not as good as an Arcane Signet, but I'd argue that it'll do as much as, if not more than a Chaos Warp.

Dragonlover

Pointing bombs is going to be very hard. Long term I think most of the bomb cards I have way underpointed, e.g. craterhoof behemoth and need to price them a bit higher or somehow scale them more aggressively with tutors and ramp.

For simplification I am probably just going to go through and repoint all the higher CMC stuff at some point with costs that don't drive decks into CEDH territory but do display that they're more likely to win a game than a talisman of dominance.

[Rumpy5897]

Since we're starting to nitpick at points, I remember being surprised when I looked at the Feather report and saw the Talisman getting more points than the Signet. Why? They're both two-drop rocks, and very comparable in quality.

[pokken]

Since we're starting to nitpick at points, I remember being surprised when I looked at the Feather report and saw the Talisman getting more points than the Signet. Why? They're both two-drop rocks, and very comparable in quality.

Talismans generate mana the turn they come out so generate more busted sequences like:
Land → Sol ring → Signet stop
vs.
Land → Sol ring → Talisman → Ponder

The fixing of signets is valuable but on the average talismans are just a little stronger. At least, that's my reasoning. In lower power decks it might not be that way though, the fixing might be more valuable.

[Rumpy5897]

Fair enough, I see your point. I guess narrowing the gap a bit wouldn't hurt though.

(see why I wanted to stay away from points? )

[pokken]

Fair enough, I see your point. I guess narrowing the gap a bit wouldn't hurt though.

(see why I wanted to stay away from points? )

They need tons of nitpicking, they're way off and wildly inconsistent.

One thing I'll note is that I'm not striving *that* much for consistency across categories so much as consistency within categories. Because I can apply separate multipliers for each category it's more important that the relative costs be decent.

I actually raised the points on the non-blue fetchlands the other day because of Darrenhabib's shuffle argument that reminded me. I still think the ones that get island are a hair stronger than the ones that don't but it's not by as much as I had it. I could see closing the gap with signets/talismans a bit.

[MrMystery314]

What I'm surprised by is that the main game plan being Worldgorger combo isn't something relevant by the ranking system (Grusilda is partially the commander because it wins off a full graveyard and infinite mana from the command zone without needing anything extra in hand), or Kiki-Jiki being counted as a value piece and not because it's part of the combo win from a single Buried Alive. Recognizing some of those combos (Kiki-Jiki without a way to combo is far weaker) could result in a more effective ranking system. Personally, I'd rank the deck as a strong 8 or a weak 9, effectively being cEDH if not solely optimized for being a combo deck.

Any ranking system is going to excel at spotting generally good cards, but without lots of effort won't recognize synergies and that sort of thing, which players looking at a deck may use to rank it either higher or lower than any automated system.

[Rumpy5897]

I took a peak at your commander synergies tab in the Google Doc, and feel comfortable enough to propose some relative additions to the list. You list Whitemane Lion as a synergy piece for Ephara, and any of the one-drop cantrips offer a similar level of payoff in Feather (arguably even more, as it's one mana opposed to two). As such, here are three bins of stuff that should probably be acknowledged:

• High - Bandage, Crimson Wisps, Defiant Strike, Expedite, Heal, Niveous Wisps, Panic, Shelter
• Medium - Eerie Interlude, Fists of Flame, Gods Willing, Sheltering Light, Stand Firm
• Low - Apostle's Blessing, Cloudshift, Ephemerate, Faith's Shield, Liberate, Long Road Home, Otherworldly Journey

The "high" stuff is the one-drop cantrips, plus Shelter as that thing's silly. The "medium" tier is protection stuff with upside, a board-wide protection spell, the next strongest two-drop cantrip that gets brutal with a swarm and Zada, plus Stand Firm (repeatable one-mana scry two is actually very good). The lowest listed stuff is one-mana insta-flickers, two-mana EOT flickers, plus one-mana protection that can potentially hit non-creatures in a pinch. This doesn't cover the complete list of repeatable spells I run, but it feels like a good gradient of relative impact of the most efficient ones. This is just the spells by the way, not sure how you're gonna handle Young Pyromancer and stuff - probably just standalone point values?