Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

[pokken]

Artifact ramp is really all we have.

While that's kinda true if your willing to skip zombies you have access to a few powerful strategies..

1. Rush coffers with tutors map and wayfarer. Crypt ghast is playable here too jf you're heavily black.

2. Plains guys like white orchid and loyal warhound and stoic farmer (real good if you're going to try to play emeria which is legit on varina). Orchid fixes too. Also stormscape familiar is solid. The verge rangers and scholarship sponsor package with lotus field effects is also not bad.

3. Along with stormscape you can run jet medallion. There are likely other cost reducers.

4. Gear toward endgame ramp by turning zombies into Mana with pitiless plunderer and altars.

(And don't forget about hitting your land drops with white search spells and blue cantrips in some decks tho that's not mostly the best in varina I would err toward tithe and land tax)

I've been working hard on various ways to cut back my signet usage mostly because I find them kinda boring but there are tons of cool options that keep coming.

[Eburon]

1. Rush coffers with tutors map and wayfarer. Crypt ghast is playable here too jf you're heavily black.

Since we are a tricolor deck, Coffers is a bit more difficult to turn on efficiently (you would need to run Expedition Map and even then only have a small chance to get both Urborg and Coffers in play). The heavier we go into running Swamps to easier that gets though.

2. Plains guys like white orchid and loyal warhound and stoic farmer (real good if you're going to try to play emeria which is legit on varina). Orchid fixes too. Also stormscape familiar is solid. The verge rangers and scholarship sponsor package with lotus field effects is also not bad.

I'm not sold on the Plains guys (they have the same issue I have with map - conditional ramp). Both Verge Rangers and Scholarship Sponsor seem to be inferior to Archaeomancer's Map imo.

3. Along with stormscape you can run jet medallion. There are likely other cost reducers.

I like the idea of Stormscape Familiar over the Medaillon. I also prefer Signets/Talismans over both those options (just because they are more consistent and can help cast creatures without generic mana in their cost)

4. Gear toward endgame ramp by turning zombies into Mana with pitiless plunderer and altars.

I definitely agree with you that altars are excellent options (especially Phyrexian Altar). They allow us to tap out on our turn while still allowing access to mana for interaction if needed. Phyrexian Altar is also great at fixing and I have always been happy to draw into it.

[WizardMN]

I have been out of the loop on this thread for a while thanks to the holiday and just other stuff going on. And, of course, this thread has blown up in the last week or two so following along has been a bit of a chore. There have been some good discussions on a number of things and I just wanted to offer my two cents on some thoughts being discussed. Because I am trying to respond to a bunch at once, I am just going to use spoiler tags so as to make this post a little less obnoxious

Noxious Ghoul, Oketra, Silversmote Ghoul, Ebondeath

Show

Hide

Just chiming in on a couple of my experiences.

Noxious Ghoul is hands down one of our best removal pieces. Especially with our builds focused on mass recursion. I also run Archfiend of Ifnir, which has performed really well for me. While not a zombie, it's synergy with Varina is amazing.

God-Eternal Oketra: I have never actually cast it when I played my deck. I always ended up chucking it in my GY. I think I maybe played it once, and it was not impactful enough to keep it.

Silversmote Ghoul: Sure, IF the stars align, it is a free zombie that keeps drawing cards once per turn cycle. However, we have access to more efficient card draw and better zombies than that.

Ebondeath, Dracolich: I think it is worth exploring, but it will likely not be impactful enough to stick around. It is just a 5/2 beat stick.

I agree with all of this. Noxious Ghoul is amazing in this deck, especially off of a mass reanimation spell as it turns our symmetrical reanimation spells into asymmetrical ones. It has also been good to just get incremental board control using Varina's ability.

Oketra never did anything for me and I cut her pretty easily. She sounds good on paper but it never worked out where I either felt like she did enough. Or, more specifically, she never felt needed and was bordering on win-more with the way the rest of the deck is structured.

Silversmote Ghoul is not where we want to be for a slight card advantage engine. I agree with another comment that attacking with 3 zombies isn't exactly difficult but it still makes the card draw conditional. Now, I will admit that this may come down to the way the deck is built and the expected way it is played out but the way I play mine I think the Ghoul ends up being way too slow and ineffective because I tend to go a little slower in building a board state and expecting to really finish things off with a mass reanimation spell which means this Ghoul might not be able to trigger often enough. And, while it isn't huge, the mana cost to draw the card, especially in the context of all of the ramp discussions, can be detrimental as I would often rather use that mana to commit to the board.

For this reason, I think things like Rhystic Study (which I understand is not attainable or desirable for everyone), Painful Truths, and Plumb the Forbidden are better options for card draw. And I am still very much on board with Epiphany at the Drownyard. Truths is the outlier here as I like it as an early play to help refill my hand to keep things moving but the rest allow for a lot more cards to be drawn. I just don't think 2 mana per turn is worth it. At that point, Thorough Investigation seems like the better card. If I am already attacking to get a zombie back, why not make that work on smaller attacks and then get additional value out of it? Or maybe even Search the Premises as a way to deter being attacked (sort of) but also providing far more Clues. And since Silversmote Ghoul is effectively just a Clue that can be recurred, I am not sure it is really better than these other options.

And Ebondeath is not where this deck wants to be at all.

Filth and Sivlersmote Ghoul's Playstyle choices

Show

Hide

I'm still not hugely sold on Filth over Zombie Master. I guess it depends what is more important to your meta. If there's other zombie decks flying about go for the Incarnation, if grave hate is more important go for the lord.

I'm personally amenable to trying some single target recursion. Prized Amalgam seems fine, I'd give Silversmote Ghoul a try, and otherwise I'm still finding Animate Dead calling to me. I just like the idea of cheating on casting costs for Mike or similar.

I think there's a fairly good chance going in this direction means being less 'all or nothing and more incremental value, with spikes in value on a mass reanimate. I've been thinking about adding in Ashnod's Altar anyway, and having a larger suite of creatures that can come back incidentally makes that more viable, which gives me a way to make better use of Varinas last ability, Relentless Dead's reanimate ability, and just help pay for big stuff.

Its been a little tough to get games in, but when I can I think I might try the area out.

I don't like Filth either and it comes down to the reliance or expectation of mass reanimation spells. Sure, there are a couple that wouldn't reanimate it but we don't want it on the field whereas Zombie Master being on the field is exactly what we want. There is an argument about Master being easier to remove but I think having actual synergy with the deck is preferable. @Nimbaway mentioned something similar as well. And, to be fair, I personally refuse to run anything that isn't a zombie so of course my decision between the two is quite easy.

I think that is a good point about being less all, and a point I made above as well. I have stayed away from those incremental cards simply because my deck isn't built with them in mind and so I would get far less use out of them than I would need to make them good enough to include. But, if the deck is entirely built around that premise (or, at least, goes further in that direction) I could see more things like that making sense.

Ramp

Show

Hide

If you are not ramping off it ever I would cut it in this deck and try to find a copy of Tithe if you don't have one. It's probably worse than Gift of Estates as well if it never ramps.

@toctheyounger I know you have been testing Sword of the Animist (if I recall correctly). Would it be correct to assume that the Sword might be better at ramping than Map?

I don't really have enough experience with Map to say for sure, but in terms of pure 'getting lands in play, generally yes. In a vaccum Map would be better, but by its nature Map is not ever in a vacuum.

That said, your new labd enters tapped, so at the top of each of their respective levels of value Map is still higher for immediate value. I guess what I'm trying to say is the ceiling for value is higher with Map. Sword is reliable but will only ever do what it says on the tin.

1. Rush coffers with tutors map and wayfarer. Crypt ghast is playable here too jf you're heavily black.

Since we are a tricolor deck, Coffers is a bit more difficult to turn on efficiently (you would need to run Expedition Map and even then only have a small chance to get both Urborg and Coffers in play). The heavier we go into running Swamps to easier that gets though.

2. Plains guys like white orchid and loyal warhound and stoic farmer (real good if you're going to try to play emeria which is legit on varina). Orchid fixes too. Also stormscape familiar is solid. The verge rangers and scholarship sponsor package with lotus field effects is also not bad.

I'm not sold on the Plains guys (they have the same issue I have with map - conditional ramp). Both Verge Rangers and Scholarship Sponsor seem to be inferior to Archaeomancer's Map imo.

3. Along with stormscape you can run jet medallion. There are likely other cost reducers.

I like the idea of Stormscape Familiar over the Medaillon. I also prefer Signets/Talismans over both those options (just because they are more consistent and can help cast creatures without generic mana in their cost)

4. Gear toward endgame ramp by turning zombies into Mana with pitiless plunderer and altars.

I definitely agree with you that altars are excellent options (especially Phyrexian Altar). They allow us to tap out on our turn while still allowing access to mana for interaction if needed. Phyrexian Altar is also great at fixing and I have always been happy to draw into it.

I think there is an argument to be made overall for Ramp vs ensuring land drops. I do agree Archaeomancer's Map might be less effective as a ramp option than we would really desire, but it still gets us lands to make our land drops which isn't nothing. At it's floor, it gets us two lands unconditionally. And, the unconditional point is what makes it better than Gift of Estates and pushes it up there with Tithe. Tithe is absolutely still better and being an Instant allows us to more often get both lands, but we always get lands with Map (even if they are only basics). And if part of the concern is that we won't have fewer lands than an opponent in order to use the Burgeoning effect, the creature based ramp options like Knight of the White Orchid are not going to be much better. I still think Map is good, even without ramping.

Now, Sword of the Animist is another that I keep going back and forth on and I have heard plenty of arguments for and against it. For now, I have cut it from my list partly due to it being slow and, again, conditional. While we shouldn't have a worry about having creatures to hold the Sword, it still messes with a bit of sequencing in order to do it. That, in and of itself, isn't the worst thing in the world. There are always going to be decisions to make on where to put our mana. But after trying it out, and having the ramp/land tutoring package I have currently, I have been finding that making land drops is enough to keep up. Nykthos, of course, is huge as well when actually trying to ramp further.

I might try to slot in Sword of the Animist again to try it out but I know when I used it before, it just never felt like it was needed and I agree with Eburon's statement above that Map seems like it ends up being more useful in the long run as it is more guaranteed to at least hit land drops even if we don't always ramp out of it.

I do agree the Altars are good but I have stayed away from them mostly due to their combo potential with Gravecrawler. But they are solid options for ramp since we are dealing with so many creatures and Varina offers options for getting more zombies to get more mana. It could be something I would be interested in trying out at some point in the future but the Gravecrawler interaction will always give me pause.

[pokken]

Since we are a tricolor deck, Coffers is a bit more difficult to turn on efficiently (you would need to run Expedition Map and even then only have a small chance to get both Urborg and Coffers in play). The heavier we go into running Swamps to easier that gets though.

Most of these Varina builds wind up like 80% black, so while not a general purpose strategy I could see building the deck with no more than 1 pip of white/blue on a card and playing as many as 8-10 basic swamps, and playing this set of cards to find coffers/borg:

• weathered wayfarer
• expedition map
• vampiric tutor
• demonic tutor
• beseech the queen

There're other fringe things you could play as well. But setting up Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx or Cabal Coffers is a legitimate way to approach Varina Imho, especially since almost all the big bombs are black too (e.g. Patriarch's Bidding).

I like the idea of Stormscape Familiar over the Medaillon. I also prefer Signets/Talismans over both those options (just because they are more consistent and can help cast creatures without generic mana in their cost)

In this deck medallions are likely to give you a much more explosive game than signets, especially since the deck winds up being like 80% black. See above.

It's not automatically the right choice, but even in the OP 27 cards gain meaningful cost reduction off of a medallion/familiar and Varina, Lich Queen herself always does as well. So I would basically always play familiar before a signet if I had a good manabase.

The thing to remember about the way these decks are curved is that they are likely to be multispelling a ton in the late game, so the ceiling of cost reductions is huge.

What I kept finding in Ephara is that being able to cast Lark + guide for -2 mana on my combo turn was massively important, way better than a signet.

While it's important to think about what cards do in your opening hand, it's also vital to think about how they are later in the game. Which is part of why I'm anti-signet (they're horrid topdecks).

Which is again not to say that this approach is 100% right just that it's worth thinking about other approaches.

[plaganegra]

I spent some time testing and tuning my curve last night and I actually cut mana crypt from my list (and added some additional "free spells" - finding room for both fierce guardianship and flawless maneuver). It was too awkward that it provides no colors, and taps for 2 when I only really need it to tap for 1 to play Varina. It's great at casting mana rocks and some of our zombies, but did't do what I wanted it to when I had it in my opening hand. Even with as many colored mana sources and dual color lands I run, I still felt limited by the number of non-black sources in the deck. This is a big downside to the white ramp spells that require you to fetch basics and/or plains especially. Limiting me from playing two spells a turn sometimes because of mana requirements. So that pretty much rules out some of these suggestions:

Cabal Coffers + Urborg is essentially a 2 card combo without much synergy in the deck, like Eburon stated. It warps the deck to include these, which is viable, but again - it warps the deck.

Plains guys exacerbates the colored mana problem and potentially lowers the zombie count. We need black sources, not plains.

Stormscape Familiar and Jet Medallion don't add any actual colors and are only better if you are casting more than one thing per turn that can use the reduction. Definitely options, but depends on your mana color intensity imho.

But altars are really key to any competitive zombie deck. Anyone that has access to and wants to run both of the altars should strongly consider them. There's a reason they get targeted with removal, because they win games. Phyrexian Altar is one of the most broken artifacts in edh, enabling so many shenanigans its not even funny.

I think the deck really pushes towards the signets and talismans for ramp for these reasons.

For reference, this is my current mana situation:

• 34 lands
• sol ring
• arcane signet
• talisman of dominance
• talisman of hierarchy
• talisman of progress
• Archaeomancer's map
• Land tax
• Ashnod's altar
• Herald's Horn
• undead warchief

[plaganegra]

Inspired by @toctheyounger to consider Sevinne's reclamation, I did a little search for other possibly useful things with flashback, to get some additional value out of the deck's cycling engine and I cam across Deep Analysis which seems viable. I am currently having a hard time fitting either into my deck, but I was wondering if anyone else has considered these or could share their experiences? Food for thought.

[pokken]

Oh, if you're playing fetches heavily there's the Cosmic Intervention package of:

• brought back
• Sevinne's Reclamation
• crucible of worlds
• Cosmic Intervention
• Sun Titan
• second sunrise
• faith's reward

All of which are fairly decent in the deck, including some game ending kill combos with Gray Merchant of Asphodel.

[Nimbaway]

I spent some time testing and tuning my curve last night and I actually cut mana crypt from my list (and added some additional "free spells" - finding room for both fierce guardianship and flawless maneuver). It was too awkward that it provides no colors, and taps for 2 when I only really need it to tap for 1 to play Varina. It's great at casting mana rocks and some of our zombies, but didn't do what I wanted it to when I had it in my opening hand. Even with as many colored mana sources and dual color lands I run, I still felt limited by the number of non-black sources in the deck. This is a big downside to the white ramp spells that require you to fetch basics and/or plains especially. Limiting me from playing two spells a turn sometimes because of mana requirements.

This is one of the reasons why we have been looking at cutting down rocks as well, a few of us have opted to no longer run Sol Ring because it enjoys eating removal and colorless mana isn't what we necessarily want.

Tithe is a good card to consider for our ramp package, the reason I don't run it is simply budgeting. That card costs a bit to acquire and is not likely to go down.

Sevinne's Reclamation is a card I've been using more or less early on as a way to ramp as well, it works quite well if you fill your hand with Land Tax, pitching them to Varina or end of turn discard. Late game it can get back any essential creatures to spice things up or even slightly filter your colors. For the same reason I run Frantic Search, it gives me card draw but the untap clause often lets me tweak what colors I have available to me. Their not perfect solutions, like Land Tax , Archaeomancer's Map and Sword of the Animist but it comes down to what you feel makes things work for your deck (and budget).

And slightly back to AFR, it's not been an too interesting set for me. For Varina I'm only looking at Wand of Orcus and Death Tyrant. The wand might end up getting some testing, while I'm still debating the Tyrant. It's nice when you have the wand out or Death Baron, while also gaining some advantages of opponents attacking each other, but still feels rather situational to me. It has a high CMC and its not a zombie on top of that. It could be interesting if you bring in something like Rout as you can do some fun with instant speed boardwiping (or even our old friend Nev), but for me all that does is upping the deck's curve again and having stuff that mostly look at perfect situations. Chances of pulling these things off are just limited, Rise of the Dread Marn was a good example of that for me, while it had potential to me in the end I simply never saw that playing out on the board. Which makes our non-zombie tyrant an expensive card to run.

[WizardMN]

Inspired by @toctheyounger to consider Sevinne's reclamation, I did a little search for other possibly useful things with flashback, to get some additional value out of the deck's cycling engine and I cam across Deep Analysis which seems viable. I am currently having a hard time fitting either into my deck, but I was wondering if anyone else has considered these or could share their experiences? Food for thought.

I am running Reclamation mostly for the ramp potential and it has been good so far. Not stellar, and it does require fetches which hit against the budget, (and yes, I realize Varina can discard land for us) but it has done well. It also gets back a fair number of our permanents which is good too. Again, I don't think it is necessarily an auto-include but I don't think you will be disappointed either.

Analysis is a bit different. I think there are a lot of other cards I would rather play before it. Even Night's Whisper I think is above it in the list. The main issue is that 4 mana to draw 2 is not ideal when you really need cards in hand. I don't want to get stuck on three lands and not be able to cast my card draw that can hopefully get to my fourth land. I think lower on the curve is better, even if others are single use.

[plaganegra]

Oh, if you're playing fetches heavily there's the Cosmic Intervention package of:

• brought back
• Sevinne's Reclamation
• crucible of worlds
• Cosmic Intervention
• Sun Titan
• second sunrise
• faith's reward

All of which are fairly decent in the deck, including some game ending kill combos with Gray Merchant of Asphodel.

Cosmic Intervention just seems fun regardless of the package you bring with it (I like what you are puttin down!). If you run any amount of fetches, it seems to me like a fun way to ramp and/or abuse ETB triggers, especially run alongside things like phyrexian altar and ashnod's altar

[Eburon]

I just don't think 2 mana per turn is worth it. At that point, Thorough Investigation seems like the better card. If I am already attacking to get a zombie back, why not make that work on smaller attacks and then get additional value out of it?

I agree with the fact that Thorough Investigation is the better card. It also withstands any GY interaction from our opponent, and honestly, amongst enchantments, this is not a high priority to remove for our opponents. Also, the clues can stick around while we wait for the right moment to pop them.

[plaganegra]

I just don't think 2 mana per turn is worth it. At that point, Thorough Investigation seems like the better card. If I am already attacking to get a zombie back, why not make that work on smaller attacks and then get additional value out of it?

I agree with the fact that Thorough Investigation is the better card. It also withstands any GY interaction from our opponent, and honestly, amongst enchantments, this is not a high priority to remove for our opponents. Also, the clues can stick around while we wait for the right moment to pop them.

Everyone keep's focusing on how much it costs to draw cards with silversmote ghoul as a self-contained draw engine, which is irrelevant for how I use the card. Heck - I have never even used that ability lol. Im just looking for a consistently free zombie that I can pitch to Varina and get back without doing anything special (gaining 3 life). The draw effect is pure upside!

It's role is not "draw engine". it is "free attacker with upside". and that seems to be extremely hard to get across in this thread haha. Since everyone is on the topic of ramp, this plus either altar is also free mana occasionally. The more "occasionally free" things you can do with synergies in the deck, the easier the deck function, as long as those things don't distract from other key components.

You get nothing out of dropping Thorough investigation, or Rhysitc study by pitching them to the GY. Or most other things in this deck for that matter. But Silversmote Ghoul doesn't draw cards like those other two do either. Which is why I would never compare the slots they occupy in the deck... Totally different roles.

[pokken]

All those cards have to compare to Phyrexian Arena which is a bad card that's still better than those other bad cards.

This deck seems to want cards:
1. right now
2. without requiring a board

Because people are gonna sweep and you're going to need to come back, and because getting a bunch of cards now can just win (due to the mass reanimation spells).

I would start thinking about stuff like Ponder before I'd be playing Phyrexian Arena in this deck, but it'd be better to have explosive draw spells. If you could just play like 6 copies of Fact or Fiction that'd probably be your ideal state.

[WizardMN]

I just don't think 2 mana per turn is worth it. At that point, Thorough Investigation seems like the better card. If I am already attacking to get a zombie back, why not make that work on smaller attacks and then get additional value out of it?

I agree with the fact that Thorough Investigation is the better card. It also withstands any GY interaction from our opponent, and honestly, amongst enchantments, this is not a high priority to remove for our opponents. Also, the clues can stick around while we wait for the right moment to pop them.

Everyone keep's focusing on how much it costs to draw cards with silversmote ghoul as a self-contained draw engine, which is irrelevant for how I use the card. Heck - I have never even used that ability lol. Im just looking for a consistently free zombie that I can pitch to Varina and get back without doing anything special (gaining 3 life). The draw effect is pure upside!

It's role is not "draw engine". it is "free attacker with upside". and that seems to be extremely hard to get across in this thread haha. Since everyone is on the topic of ramp, this plus either altar is also free mana occasionally. The more "occasionally free" things you can do with synergies in the deck, the easier the deck function, as long as those things don't distract from other key components.

You get nothing out of dropping Thorough investigation, or Rhysitc study by pitching them to the GY. Or most other things in this deck for that matter. But Silversmote Ghoul doesn't draw cards like those other two do either. Which is why I would never compare the slots they occupy in the deck... Totally different roles.

I assumed that the point of the inclusion was the card draw to be honest. If we are evaluating the card on the basis of getting a "free" zombie, and ignoring the card draw (since you have never cracked it for a card, I think this is a reasonable stance to take for argument's sake) then I think it is even worse. I think that cards like this and Prized Amalgam are just so underwhelming as to be irrelevant. Very few (if any) cards are in this list as "just" a creature. Every single one of them has an ability or effect that makes it worth including. Zombie Master gives Swampwalk, Withered Wretch is grave hate, Binding Mummy taps things down, Grimgrin is a destruction and a sac outlet, Fleshbag Marauder offers a form of board control. Lord of the Undead is recursion and a buff, and so on. Being free just isn't good enough for the deck. I know Putrid Goblin has come up before and this is the same reason I don't run that card either.

As mentioned, if you want to go further into that with this and things like Amalgam there is probably a list where that makes sense and ends up being reasonably powerful. But a free creature that, in most cases it seems, does nothing else is just not good enough. Getting it for free isn't enough to push it into "playable" territory. At least, not for me.

[Eburon]

I agree with @WizardMN. Free creatures are not impactful enough without additional benefits. If the card draw is the ceiling, than there are better options to draw cards. I think Varina is mostly a mass reanimation focused deck rather than trying to win with incremental advantage through "free" creatures. Most of us don't run Call to the Netherworld either because it is just not impactful enough.

That said, I also believe EDH is very much about personal style and choice, so if you want to run certain cards, go for it. Most of us have pet cards that probably have more efficient alternatives, but if you want to play those, you should.

[Nimbaway]

My personal opinion on Silversmote Ghoul is that it would have been interesting if it returned to hand every time, making it reliable pitch fodder. Other then that its mostly doing incidental damage if you are leaning more on an aristocrat style of deck. It coming in tapped doesn't even make it a blocker. In the right version of the deck it could be nice, but it's definitely not something I feel is for my deck even after reconsidering it after it was brought up.

[plaganegra]

@WizardMN I posted a very thorough explanation of the reasons why a card like silversmote ghoul has value as free recursion several posts back. I couldn't respectfully disagree more on this specific card. But Hey! If everyone always agreed on everything it wouldn't be much of a discussion lol.

TLDR. Things you drop in the GY with Varina's effect do absolutely nothing until mass reanimate anyway. Getting a few things for free out of the deal is efficient resource management at worst. Its recursion helps the deck go round on both sides. It can be dropped for free, recur, and then attack (with a relatively high attack power I might add) and trigger Varina more. It just feeds the engine of the deck from all angles. And in a pinch…….. you can draw a card lol.

[toctheyounger]

I'm not gonna weigh in any more on the ghoul personally. I may get a chance to trial it shortly but until then anything I say is speculation.

Regarding ramp i don't really know where to go from here. The whole Second Sunrise package is an interesting idea. Being able to recur some land and utilities seems kinda nice. I think itd really shine with a full fetch package and a more extensive suite of sac outlets to maximize efficiency. Again, thought adding it in would leave a lot of cuts to be made, it could end up being a different beast entirely once its in. Not that thats bad or good or otherwise, its just an observation.

[plaganegra]

I'm not gonna weigh in any more on the ghoul personally. I may get a chance to trial it shortly but until then anything I say is speculation.

Very wise - I wonder how many people who are piling on to hate on this poor innocent, silver-loving zombie have ever actually tried the card... O.o

[toctheyounger]

I'm not gonna weigh in any more on the ghoul personally. I may get a chance to trial it shortly but until then anything I say is speculation.

Very wise - I wonder how many people who are piling on to hate on this poor innocent, silver-loving zombie have ever actually tried the card... O.o

I mean it's really just that I wanna trial it before dma final evaluation. It could be anywhere between terrible and great.

I'm more interested in the resources side of the deck right now anyway tbh. I'm reluctant to add rocks back into my build, purely because they really only become a solid ramp strategy with multiple iterations for redundancy, and that really does homogenized the deck significantly. Which is fine but that isn't me.

I guess for other options, Coffers is a possibility. You'd really want to add as many options as you can do track down nonbasic lands, so there's sort of the same issue, but again, possible. I think its risky putting all of your eggs in such a small basket though. Especially when it doesn't tap for mana of its own.

The other possibility that occurred to me is things like Bubbling Muck, Cabal Ritual, Songs of the Damned and such. I don't know if having burst mana is truly viable but it could help some.

[yeti1069]

For reference, this is my current mana situation:

Herald's Horn
/cards]

I prefer Bontu's Monument Same cost reduction, but moves you along your path toward winning rather than hoping to turn up 1/3rd of the deck on top deck. I had run the Horn when it came out in 3 different tribal decks and was ALWAYS disappointed. Over whole games it would pick up 1 or 2 cards. If I wanted it for card advantage, I'd rather play Phyrexian Arena, and if I wanted if for the cost reduction, I'd prefer one of the 2 mana options discussed that go beyond just reducing creatures.

My experience has been that playing the Monument tends to net between 5 and 10 life over the course of the game. I've found it helps put people in range of death from other sources, pressures life totals to make the greedier decks uncomfortable, and sometimes finishes off that hard to deal with opponent (can't attack them, can't target, can't damage) incidentally.

[yeti1069]

On the topic of ramp in general, a lot of the stuff doesn't ramp. It fixes, or ensures land drops, which isn't the same. Ramp gets things out sooner, or faster. I don't love rocks here, but there are very few ways for Esper to get ahead of curve on mana, and almost none worth talking about that cost less than 3. 2 mana rocks mean Varina a turn earlier. Few of the white options do that. Getting rocks blown out sucks, but I haven't had that happen often enough to cut them, and drawing them late blows, but then they're fodder for Varina anyway if you don't need them.

Land Tax I've included (it was a great suggestion), but I would run Tithe here, and I'm not moving Archaeomancer's Map here. Tutoring up 2 lands is nice, but basic Plains aren't super useful with how few white pups the deck needs (and you need 1 to start), then ramping from behind or against a serious ramp deck doesnt feel like enough upside to warrant spending 3 mana. The extra fodder for Varina is what makes it interesting to me, similar to Land Tax, but it being less flexible, and costing 2 more sours me on it.

Turn 1 Sol Ring is solid. Turn 1 Sol Ring into a Signet or Talisman is going to win games, and none of the other options can day that. Turn 2 rock mana not be as strong sometimes as a turn 2 zombie, but the deck isn't running that many, and it means getting to those key 4 and 5 mana spells easier/faster.

I used to run Coffers/Urborg alongside Expedition Map, and three tutors, and I still had plenty of games with a worthless Coffers which just feels bad. I've seen some tricolor decks pull it off, but it always felt too inconsistent to me.

[Eburon]

I am kind of in the some boat with ramp. Yes, there are plenty of decent fixing options, but they just keep us on par rather than put us ahead. Mana rocks are not the sexiest option because they are boring (but reliable). I have tested with Map and it just doesn't do enough for 3 mana.

Aside from the traditional 2 mana rocks/Sol Ring, I can get behind the altars and Sword of the Animist to ramp. These options all generate additional mana instead of just keeping up. Burst Mana in the form of Ritual effects can be useful if you have ways to abuse it. I'm just not sure we run stuff that can efficiently make use of burst mana.

I have similar concerns with Coffers. Even with tutors, it is not reliable enough, especially with the number of non-swamps in my own build.

[plaganegra]

For reference, this is my current mana situation:

Herald's Horn
/cards]

I prefer Bontu's Monument Same cost reduction, but moves you along your path toward winning rather than hoping to turn up 1/3rd of the deck on top deck. I had run the Horn when it came out in 3 different tribal decks and was ALWAYS disappointed. Over whole games it would pick up 1 or 2 cards. If I wanted it for card advantage, I'd rather play Phyrexian Arena, and if I wanted if for the cost reduction, I'd prefer one of the 2 mana options discussed that go beyond just reducing creatures.

My experience has been that playing the Monument tends to net between 5 and 10 life over the course of the game. I've found it helps put people in range of death from other sources, pressures life totals to make the greedier decks uncomfortable, and sometimes finishes off that hard to deal with opponent (can't attack them, can't target, can't damage) incidentally.

I've used the monument extensively, but in this deck I prefer the card draw over the additional drain. Card draw, even a few, makes a massive difference in selection opportunities when cycling with Varina. As a small bonus it also reduces all the zombies, not just the black ones. Jet medallion is also worth considering though.

As you can tell I am leaning into Varinas wheel effect heavily in both my deck construction and playstyle. I can't tell anyone it is more powerful or the best way to build the deck, but nobody can say that about their build either.

[Nabux]

Hello there,
I had a goot time to read that recent controvercy :p.
I've some trouble to find some good replacement effects for Varina's first ability. Sometime Varina get killed few times (or/and our graveyard is empty), and the mass reanimation plan, very commander centric, can be nulified.

Ive tried :
Forgotten Creation : ok but not great unless you can double the draw with Alhammarret's Archive.
Perpetual Timepiece : i found it useless
The U and UB wheels : same feeling than Forgotten Creation

What do you think about Altar of Dementia? Someone tested it ? It seems to me thats a good fit for self milling + securise our zombies from an exile effect. (Btw, like some of us im totaly sick of the other altars)

Any other ideas ?