Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

[toctheyounger]

Yeah I'm not mad at the wand tbh. I don't like the equip cost but 'that many' is a really nice term to see in conjunction with creating untapped zombie tokens. Death touch turning up on attacks and blocks is pretty great too. Which works really nicely with creating tokens. If you have the spare mana to switch equipped creatures that is.

Again I think the equip cost hurts pretty bad, but the payoff might just be worth it. I've got enough evasion baked in that if this connects once or twice things could get pretty out of hand.

[yeti1069]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I get how the ghoul gets cheated in. It makes sense. And in fairness it could well be pretty reliable.

Honestly at this point I just don't know whatd get the cut to trial it. The deck is at that point where it gets really tough to make cuts effectively without cutting something that's pretty great.

I do find your list interesting with all the zombies that come back to play repeatedly (or that make creatures in the same way). I'm curious what your play experience with it has been like.

No need if you don't want to, my group get's together almost weekly and I will gladly report back with more detailed thoughts and experiences. They might get sick of playing against Varina all night though lol.

I have finally settled on a list after dozens of changes and alterations to my version. No more until I test it out a bunch. I love how versatile this commander is!

Decklist

DecklistCMCManaPricesChartsDraw 7

Commander:

1 Varina, Lich Queen

Creatures (32)

1 Carrion Feeder

1 Cryptbreaker

1 Gravecrawler

1 Binding Mummy

1 Corpse Knight

1 Lazotep Chancellor

1 Relentless Dead

1 Shepherd of Rot

1 Undead Augur

1 Wayward Servant

1 Death Baron

1 Diregraf Captain

1 Diregraf Colossus

1 Lord of the Undead

1 Master of Death

1 Midnight Reaper

1 Plague Belcher

1 Prized Amalgam

1 Silversmote Ghoul

1 Corpse Augur

1 Filth

1 Forgotten Creation

1 Graveborn Muse

1 Tormod, the Desecrator

1 Undead Warchief

1 Vengeful Dead

1 Wonder

1 Bone Miser

1 God-Eternal Oketra

1 Gray Merchant of Asphodel

1 Grimgrin, Corpse-Born

1 Mikaeus, the Unhallowed

Artifacts (10)

1 Mana Crypt

1 Sol Ring

1 Arcane Signet

1 Talisman of Dominance

1 Talisman of Hierarchy

1 Archaeomancer's Map

1 Ashnod's Altar

1 Herald's Horn

1 Alhammarret's Archive

1 Eldrazi Monument

Instants (9)

1 Pact of Negation

1 Swan Song

1 Swords to Plowshares

1 Cyclonic Rift

1 Despark

1 Mission Briefing

1 Anguished Unmaking

1 Intuition

1 Rise of the Dread Marn

Sorcery (9)

1 Call to the Netherworld

1 Damn

1 Winds of Abandon

1 Cleansing Meditation

1 Toxic Deluge

1 Windfall

1 Living Death

1 Patriarch's Bidding

1 Zombie Apocalypse

Enchantments (5)

1 Land Tax

1 Reconnaissance

1 Teferi's Ageless Insight

1 Tombstone Stairwell

1 Kindred Discovery

Lands (34)

1 Ancient Tomb

1 Bojuka Bog

1 Cavern of Souls

1 Command Tower

1 Crypt of Agadeem

1 Dimir Aqueduct

1 Fabled Passage

1 Flooded Strand

1 Godless Shrine

2 Island

1 Marsh Flats

1 Morphic Pool

1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx

1 Orzhov Basilica

1 Phyrexian Tower

2 Plains

1 Polluted Delta

1 Prismatic Vista

1 Reliquary Tower

1 Scrubland

4 Swamp

1 Tundra

1 Unclaimed Territory

1 Underground Sea

1 Unholy Grotto

1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

1 Vault of Champions

1 Vault of the Archangel

1 Watery Grave

Approximate Total Cost:

Noxious Ghoul could very well be in there instead of Grimgrin, corpse-born
Cleansing Meditation could be austere command
filth could be zombie master
winds of abandon I am unsure about in general. Could easily become teferi's protection or another counterspell

These are the cards I am not completely settled on, but I want to test my theories on how they play in context.

If I wanted to make it stronger right off the bat, I would add phyrexian altar, Rhystic Study, and demonic tutor / vampiric tutor. I'm just not interested in using these cards right now, which is a non-competitive decision.

[plaganegra]

I do find your list interesting with all the zombies that come back to play repeatedly (or that make creatures in the same way). I'm curious what your play experience with it has been like.

Thanks! I think the solution to the mana problems/efficiency the deck traditionally has is utilizing "free" value effects/spells that work well with Varina. This actually allows the deck to play a more tempo style than it might otherwise be capable of. Not having to cast things that move the strategy forward frees up mana to make more impactful plays, or be more interactive with the table and lets you take advantage of the cycling on both sides of Varina's effect.

I'll definitely share my experiences over time with this strategy. My initial testing and play have reinforced my feelings about it.

But keep in mind my experiences and preferences are just that. Commander is very heavily dependent on the context of a playgroup and the pilot's play style with any given deck.

Often times we have discussions about cards in commander decks in a vacuum which kind of gives the subliminal impression that there are certain ways one should go with a deck for success. When it all really comes down to a personal choice about what kind of commander you want to play and with whom. That's why I advocate for trying to bring new strategies to light in discussions because then someone can find more options that might fit their deck/play.

[yeti1069]

Table variance is definitely something that often gets overlooked a bit.

The auto-recurring creatures look interesting as a strategy, but underwhelming individually. Now, if you're bringing in 2-3 extra bodies a turn, that's solid. If it's 1 every other turn, less so if the bodies aren't that powerful.

I DO really like the idea of Death Tyrant as a(n albeit expensive) combat trick. Swing with 6 mana open, discard Tyrant, wait for blocks, then reanimate him. Make a few zombie tokens. I especially like that they don't come in tapped. 6 is a lot though.

The Rod also looks interesting, but 3 to play and 3 to equip doesn't spark my interest, even though it's similar to the Tyrant in cost.

[plaganegra]

The auto-recurring creatures look interesting as a strategy, but underwhelming individually. Now, if you're bringing in 2-3 extra bodies a turn, that's solid. If it's 1 every other turn, less so if the bodies aren't that powerful.

You don't need to meet all of those conditions for them to be worthwhile to include in the deck. Because any zombie you are dumping into your GY is not doing anything for you unless you spend mana and/or resources (cards) to get them back. So if you happen to dump something in the GY that advances your gameplan for free then to me it is a no-brainer. What you are really sacrificing is the cards they replace in utility generally. To me this is a tradeoff that is very easy to swallow because I prefer my decks to operate smoothly and have a lot of viable lines of play to suit the table. Free stuff just makes everything in the deck work better (again at the slight expense of utility). If you are forced to play one individually then the whole deck is failing to work in general and the cards they are replacing probably would not have mattered either.

The biggest knock against free creatures seems to be what they do/don't do in the event of a patriarch's biding or zombie apocalypse, etc. In this scenario, I again feel like these creatures do not matter the majority of the time. You only need a few key things in the GY when you cast one of those spells to win the game on the spot, and all of those are still in the deck anyway.

The opportunity cost of including silversmote ghoul and prized amalgam is maybe withered wretch and something else similar to it, or one of the lesser lords like cemetery reaper.

Filth and/or wonder can replace zombie master. I just don't see why I would want to cast a zombie for 3 mana that buffs all of my opponents zombies (which I sometimes give them) when I can drop one in the GY and get an asymmetrical effect for zero mana. Again the only time this is really relevant is when casting your patriarch's bidding or zombie apocalypse because it is one or two less bodies that come back. To me the benefit vastly outweighs the disadvantages most of the time. Heck, in my playgroup I rarely get to cast a mass reanimate spell without it being countered or some other response to mess up my plans, which makes that play less likely for me to win the game than incremental card advantage over the course of the entire game that synchronizes with my chosen commander. I do still get a mass reanimate off once in a while, which makes it very worthwhile to keep them in the deck. It is almost a win on the spot. Getting your evasion for free by just playing your deck is virtual card advantage.

I don't know if anyone is debating wether or not Master of Death belongs in the deck, but he is another source of free card advantage. Everyone should run this guy in Varina imo. You never have to cast it to get card advantage off of him, just pay 1 life at a time to discard him instead of whatever you just drew off of varina you want to keep. The other text on the card and his creature type even are bonuses that make the decision even easier.

Intuition makes all of this so so much better, and adds so much to the deck imo. Much more than buried alive, because it is at instant speed. It allows you to drop your two "I win zombies" in the GY the end phase before the turn you plan to go off. Yeah one stays in your hand (probably Gray Merchant of Asphodel) - so all you have to do is attack, cycle it, and then cast your game ending spell in MP2. Thats one scenario, but there are so many where Intuition helps you. In a pinch you can use it to grab three board wipes, three targeted removal spells, three counterspells, or even your three mass reanimate spells to guarantee yourself an answer when you untap (or right away depending on the cost). Then opbviously you can use it to go grab three of the value creatures I am talking so much about. The options are just so interesting and limitless depending on the scenario. To me this could easily be considered a staple in the deck, if you use the value creatures.

I DO really like the idea of Death Tyrant as a(n albeit expensive) combat trick. Swing with 6 mana open, discard Tyrant, wait for blocks, then reanimate him. Make a few zombie tokens. I especially like that they don't come in tapped. 6 is a lot though.

I did not even think about using him as a combat trick missing the impact of the words "return to play tapped". That is a really great thing to point out and helps to make the card much more attractive to include. I will definitely be picking one up!

[yeti1069]

I like Zombie Master over Wonder for a few reasons.
-swampwalk is straight up unlockable, rather than less likely to be blocked
-its a zombie body
-the regeneration ability is occasionally valuable

My issue when I tried Wonder was that it requires an Island in play and the deck doesn't always have one out consistently.

Zombie Master requires your opponents to have a swamp or someone to have Urborg, so it's also situational, but being a zombie body means it's not a dead card really. I've very rarely had it backfire by giving someone else's zombies a buff.

As for mass reanimates, I find that they sometimes win on the spot, but I often use them to just get ahead/back in the game. Bringing back some lord's and value creatures can sometimes be sufficient without wiping everyone out right away. In fact, many of my wins involve a mix of aristocrat-like drain effects and combat. Many times the mass recursion kills one or two players with ETBs and the remaining opponent(s) with the bodies brought back. Some 3/1s and 3/3s without abilities may get you there, but also may not. Like I said earlier, I'm interested to see some results there, but it seems interesting.

Glad to give a fresh perspective on the new card. Though now that I'm thinking about it, Rise of the Dread Marn occupied VERY similar space for a much lower cost. It's not repeatable like Tyrant is, and cares specifically about non-tokens whereas Tyrant cares about attackers/blockers.

[plaganegra]

I like Zombie Master over Wonder for a few reasons.
-swampwalk is straight up unlockable, rather than less likely to be blocked
-its a zombie body
-the regeneration ability is occasionally valuable

My issue when I tried Wonder was that it requires an Island in play and the deck doesn't always have one out consistently.

Zombie Master requires your opponents to have a swamp or someone to have Urborg, so it's also situational, but being a zombie body means it's not a dead card really. I've very rarely had it backfire by giving someone else's zombies a buff.

Filth being the key card to compare to Zombie Master, not Wonder. Filth is much easier to activate than zombie master also. To me in the deck it just seems like an upgrade, or run both if you really want evasion via swampwalk.

I am currently running both, but I have never has an issue getting islands in my deck. I run fetches and duals though, which I realize is not very budget friendly at all.

What you are describing with wins is common for me as well with mass reanimates. I shouldn't have said "on the spot" and said "that turn" haha.

[toctheyounger]

I'm still not hugely sold on Filth over Zombie Master. I guess it depends what is more important to your meta. If there's other zombie decks flying about go for the Incarnation, if grave hate is more important go for the lord.

I'm personally amenable to trying some single target recursion. Prized Amalgam seems fine, I'd give Silversmote Ghoul a try, and otherwise I'm still finding Animate Dead calling to me. I just like the idea of cheating on casting costs for Mike or similar.

I think there's a fairly good chance going in this direction means being less 'all or nothing and more incremental value, with spikes in value on a mass reanimate. I've been thinking about adding in Ashnod's Altar anyway, and having a larger suite of creatures that can come back incidentally makes that more viable, which gives me a way to make better use of Varinas last ability, Relentless Dead's reanimate ability, and just help pay for big stuff.

Its been a little tough to get games in, but when I can I think I might try the area out.

[Nimbaway]

Think the main issue with Filth over Zombie Master for me is that Master is a body to swing with after mass reanimation. Filth only gives swampwalk when it's in the graveyard, a nice effect as I personally do enjoy using Wonder but in the end we do have to get the damage through and personally I feel that's where I give Master the nod over Filth.

[Eburon]

Prized Amalgam seems really hard to trigger. You need either Gravecrawler, Silversmote Ghoul or Mikaeus, the Unhallowed in play to trigger it. That is only 3 cards out of our 99. That makes it a hard pass for me. Filth and Wonder are not terrible options, but I think they are inferior to Zombie Master most of the time. GY hate will be played and Zombie Master can do work in that case, where as the other 2 don't.

I prefer to play cards that can do work if our engine is not online. Varina combined with GY shenanigans is our engine, but, if that engine sputters, I like to have the option to just hard cast stuff that still has enough impact. A vanilla 3/3 (Amalgam) just doesn't have the same impact Withered Wretch or a lord has when cast. Stuff like Death Tyrant have a significant impact and are worth that risk.

Wand of Orcus is expensive, but impactful. I see it as a mid/late game play that can impact the table in a turn. Even without evasion, granting deathtouch on an attack is sometimes enough impact. It is worth consideration.

[Eburon]

Well then: https://mtgcommander.net/index.php/2021 ... 21-update/

TLDR: Hullbreacher is banned.

[plaganegra]

Prized Amalgam seems really hard to trigger. You need either Gravecrawler, Silversmote Ghoul or Mikaeus, the Unhallowed in play to trigger it. That is only 3 cards out of our 99. That makes it a hard pass for me. Filth and Wonder are not terrible options, but I think they are inferior to Zombie Master most of the time. GY hate will be played and Zombie Master can do work in that case, where as the other 2 don't.

I prefer to play cards that can do work if our engine is not online. Varina combined with GY shenanigans is our engine, but, if that engine sputters, I like to have the option to just hard cast stuff that still has enough impact. A vanilla 3/3 (Amalgam) just doesn't have the same impact Withered Wretch or a lord has when cast. Stuff like Death Tyrant have a significant impact and are worth that risk.

I think this is a fair point on the amalgam. It probably needs more support with cards like entomb, buried alive, and intuition. I will be exploring ebondeath dracolich and also death tyrant, and possibly an extra GY tutor. Or possibly cutting it if it doesn't work out. I appreciate your perspective on that! But again, you are pitching this card to Varina's effect most of the time. It does come back with mass reanimate also, and sometimes it comes back for free, so it is a value add even if it doesnt trigger all the time.

I do disagree on filth though. I think most of the time, it is just better than zombie master - assuming of course that your deck's engine is working MOST of the time:

• It is easier to get online (you having a swamp is vastly easier to get than opponents)
• It is a free effect in the GY (3 mana you did not have to spend, so even if it is exiled from the GY you lose nothing in tempo).
• It is always an asymmetrical effect (Zombie master is an old lord, so it affects ALL zombies)
• Board wipes and spot removal for problem creatures (which an online zombie master is) are much more prevalent than GY hate. So it is actually probably more likely to stick also, in my experience.
• Minor benefit, but filth gives all your creatures swampwalk, not just the Zombies.

Of course preferences are preferences. And I can totally appreciate the desire to have a body rather than a GY buff if that is more your playstyle. Sometimes regenerate is relevant too.

That's the best case I can make for Filth, maybe that is useful or confirms your decision to go for the master. Either way I am enjoying the discussion! Now let me go add an entomb to my deck real quick to help out the amalgam lol.

Edit - I have been pouring over my list, and I don't think I can support the amalgam as much as I would like without sacrificing interaction or mana rocks... I will probably cut it for withered wretch for now until I get the new GY dudes coming out. I really appreciate the comment.

[Eburon]

So, I have been testing Archaeomancer's Map, and I often find it lackluster. It often doesn't actually ramp and just grabs 2 plains. Sure, I can chuck this with Varina, but at that point, Map is just a Divination . Is anyone else on Map and have any useful feedback?

[toctheyounger]

So, I have been testing Archaeomancer's Map, and I often find it lackluster. It often doesn't actually ramp and just grabs 2 plains. Sure, I can chuck this with Varina, but at that point, Map is just a Divination . Is anyone else on Map and have any useful feedback?

I actually think its mileage is going to vary a lot. If you're at a table loaded with green land ramp it'll do great things. If not, results may be mixed. Compares unfavorably to Land Tax imo (I think Tax is our best in slot for ramp), but even if its a pseudo-ramp on a rock its still mostly better than much else available in esper.

[Eburon]

I agree it is great if there are land ramp decks at the table. But, the floor seems a bit low for that investment. I am wondering if running Orzhov Signet is just a better option. The ceiling is lower, but it is consistent ramp rather than conditional "catch-up" ramp. I usually find enough lands to hit all my land-drops, but sometimes struggle to get that additional mana on T3/T4 for more explosive plays in those turns.

[plaganegra]

As long as you dont go first, you should get at least one free land drop out of archaeomancer's map. Right? And the fact you don't have to drop one of the plains is also a benefit. If the floor (most of the time) is a free land drop and two lands in hand I think it earns its spot. But I also use a lot of 2cmc rocks in addition to this. They play well together.

[Nimbaway]

Archaeomancer's Map is in most cases just a draw 2 lands, that's how I view the card. Getting them into play can be an upside but much like with Land Tax it hurts when you're the first player in turn order. Each of them have their upsides and downsides, but my main reason to run them is that artifact removal is somewhat prevalent in my meta and that makes mana rocks vulnerable. Especially when people know you rely on them for color.

When it comes to alternatives you're limited. There is Sad Robot but it has a higher cmc and on the slightly more awkward side stuff like Environmental Sciences at a lower cmc. That said each only get you one land card in hand to the two map gives, while Map does have the upside of potentially ramping you. And late game I don't really mind it either as its a draw two you can pitch to Varina so you can keep better cards in hands.

For ramping alone rocks might be better than Archaeomancer's Map so it's more a meta call I suppose, I just personally like having lands over rocks and having draw to go along with Varina has proven desirable to me as well.

[Eburon]

Generally, I prefer land ramp over rocks as well. That said, Neither Map or Land Tax are ramp as much as they are just ensuring you keep up with land drops. In Esper, we are unfortunately limited, so rocks are the most consistent options. I guess this where personal preference takes over on whether you want consistency vs higher upside.

[pokken]

If you are not ramping off it ever I would cut it in this deck and try to find a copy of Tithe if you don't have one. It's probably worse than Gift of Estates as well if it never ramps.

[plaganegra]

In my playgroup you are waaaay too slow unless you are in green, heavy black, or use a lot of mana rocks. One land a turn just doesn't cut it even if you can do it consistently. Even if a rock gets blown up its still worth having in the deck. You just can't count them as lands because then when they do get blown up you actually just lose. If it gets blown up then you traded a card for a card. Hitting land drops and ramping are really critical. Archaeomancers map is the only card we have access to that does both I think (situationally of course, because it's white lol).

Also, generally we dont mana screw each other by blowing up mana sources in our group. If one person is ahead then their mana sources are fair game. But If your group is more cut throat on mana denial then that's a different story.

[Eburon]

@toctheyounger I know you have been testing Sword of the Animist (if I recall correctly). Would it be correct to assume that the Sword might be better at ramping than Map?

[toctheyounger]

@toctheyounger I know you have been testing Sword of the Animist (if I recall correctly). Would it be correct to assume that the Sword might be better at ramping than Map?

I don't really have enough experience with Map to say for sure, but in terms of pure 'getting lands in play, generally yes. In a vaccum Map would be better, but by its nature Map is not ever in a vacuum.

That said, your new labd enters tapped, so at the top of each of their respective levels of value Map is still higher for immediate value. I guess what I'm trying to say is the ceiling for value is higher with Map. Sword is reliable but will only ever do what it says on the tin.

[plaganegra]

@toctheyounger

How many basics do you think the deck can support? I was thinking

3-4 swamp
2-3 island
2-3 plains

Obviously running sword of the animist, archaeomancer's map, and land tax have heavy basic requirements. I really wish archaeomancer's map could get non-plains.

But you seem to run a lot more than that... Can you elaborate on why? It seems like a ton to me in a 3 color deck, especially with no fetches. How often do you run into trouble casting your spells? My experience playing UB zombies for a long time was that every land that didn't tap for black was a liability so I always tried to keep that to a minimum. Especially when running a few colorless lands also.

[toctheyounger]

@toctheyounger

How many basics do you think the deck can support? I was thinking

3-4 swamp
2-3 island
2-3 plains

Obviously running sword of the animist, archaeomancer's map, and land tax have heavy basic requirements. I really wish archaeomancer's map could get non-plains.

But you seem to run a lot more than that... Can you elaborate on why? It seems like a ton to me in a 3 color deck, especially with no fetches. How often do you run into trouble casting your spells? My experience playing UB zombies for a long time was that every land that didn't tap for black was a liability so I always tried to keep that to a minimum. Especially when running a few colorless lands also.

I definitely run more than is optimal, mostly because land bases are expensive, and I'm literally just getting my first fetches just now (thanks MH2). I'll never have the money for ABUR's so even having fetches in the list (i will be adding a Marsh Flats) i think without a way of repeatedly recurring them a la Crucible you're really just making your colors blend right. Which I do ok with at present anyway.

The biggest issue I've seen with ramp here is not just getting colors right, its making sure your color density can sustain your options over a turn cycle, or even just multiple spells in a turn. Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx[ helps, but thats one land. I think really comes from the fact that there really isn't any truly reliable way, in Esper, to get more than one land in play per turn cycle repeatedly. Map is the best option we have for it, and even then you only achieve parity. Ghirapur Orrery too, but i highly doubt thats worth the risk. Perhaps Terrain Generator would help too.

TL;DR - I don't generally think its the mix basic/nom-basics thats the issue with the decks momentum.

[plaganegra]

TL;DR - I don't generally think its the mix basic/nom-basics thats the issue with the decks momentum.

I don't think so either, mostly an unrelated curiosity. Thanks for the explanation

Artifact ramp is really all we have. Since I play virtually no green in mtg at all, I am very used to it lol. Adding 5-6 rocks (2cmc or less) always helps me a lot in building decks that struggle to keep up on mana.

Green really didn't need a new dragon that made a crapload of treasures, just sayin rofl. See: Old Gnawbone /unfair.