Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

[Eburon]

Pay 12? What? Pay six for Rooftop Storm and summon Acerak, and if no interaction, win the game on the spot. If you complete the Mine you can enter it again and do the loop.

Yes by it self isn't that impressive, but Varinna can discard it and still interact with other zombies in some way. I really believe you guys haven't understood the combo. Makes sense since Enetrinng the Dungeon is a new mechanic, but dismiss it at first look.

I fully understand the combo. I was merely pointing out what Acerak would do without the combo piece, which is pretty much next to nothing.

[toctheyounger]

I skewed the list towards recursion and card advantage as best as I could. I don't mind if the zombies aren't huge with buffs so long as they can come back one way or another which is why I downplay the use of lords.

Seems fair, although it does seem like your curve is a bit higher for it. Has that been beneficial for you? I don't mind going a little heavier on CMC for high impact here and there, mostly the lords are in my build because they're 3 to cast. On a side note, how has Coat of Arms played out for you? Seems like a kill on sight inclusion, could be worth considering for tempo wins.

I think I might have too many board wipes. Each time I played with the deck so far I found myself pitching them as I cycled through my deck as I usually had the best board state with creatures. I might swap one for a dedicated artifact/enchantment wiper.

I wouldn't worry too much about density of wipes, in general so long as you have a decent density of reanimation options that balances out nicely. If you're worried about artifact/enchantment types, I could suggest Austere Command, While it isn't the cheapest to cast, it's incredibly versatile for favouring your own boardstate, and I've found it often quite useful. I wouldn't worry too much about pitching wipes either, we've got some removal baked into our best spells here and there. Living Death doubles as a wipe/reanimator/win con, Noxious Ghoul is a perpetual board wipe, and if you run Grimgrin, Corpse-Born you have walking spot removal. There's also Mission Briefing, and if you really want to live dangerously, you could always run Dralnu, Lich Lord.

I am struggling with how much and what for of evasion to include. Wonder is a no-brainer, and I love Filth as a backup. Is reconnaissance good? What experiences can people share about the balance of evasion and buffs in the deck.

Honestly, I don't worry about it too much personally. Eldrazi Monument has been excellent for me but it's more of a win-con than evasion for the deck. For hard evasion I've found Zombie Master, Lord of the Accursed and Death Baron to be absolutely sufficient. Reconnaissance has the added extra that you can swing with everything and activate for favourable outcomes/blocking the crackback, but I haven't really found myself needing it. In a combat-oriented meta, it'd be worth thinking about though. It's definitely the preferred pick over Cover of Darkness, being cheaper and far more versatile. As far as evasion vs buffs go, buffs have been fine for me. The added bonus is that they generally come on creatures that are tribe-relevant, so there's two birds with one stone in terms of amplifying Varina's attack trigger and making combat favourable. Some of them have added extras too like Diregraf Captain's bleed effect, Lord of the Undead having pseudo-recursion options and such, so they've covered more of the bases I wanted covered than things like Wonder. Filth I've thought about but I don't really need it with Zombie Master in the deck either, so I've left it thus far.

[plaganegra]

Seems fair, although it does seem like your curve is a bit higher for it. Has that been beneficial for you? I don't mind going a little heavier on CMC for high impact here and there, mostly the lords are in my build because they're 3 to cast. On a side note, how has Coat of Arms played out for you? Seems like a kill on sight inclusion, could be worth considering for tempo wins.

I don't have extensive experience with this deck just yet, but my experience with the tribe is really extensive. I am not sure that matters at all though since this deck wants to do the opposite thing as Gisa and Geralf lol. That being said, I find that a higher curve is very doable with more artifact ramp. Especially with Varina where you can find more ramp and put it on the field right away in addition to your land drops. Adding white and having access to land tax and archaeomancer's map is just icing. Zombies are not really good at cheap aggro like vampires or goblins would be, and especially not anything in green. Zombies for me have always been about the value grind, and synergistic interactions. It is easier to get ahead with card advantage combined with artifact ramp. And in the late game big impactful plays (aka mass reanimate effects).

I found that coat of arms did exactly what I expected. The turn it landed I did a ton of damage and then the game became archenemy and it was blown up. I was still able to keep up against three opponents until I lost to an Urza combo. For now, I cut COA to lower the curve a bit. You are absolutely correct in saying many times that 5cmc is the logjam of the deck. There are way more viable options in those slots than space.

I wouldn't worry too much about density of wipes, in general so long as you have a decent density of reanimation options that balances out nicely. If you're worried about artifact/enchantment types, I could suggest Austere Command, While it isn't the cheapest to cast, it's incredibly versatile for favouring your own boardstate, and I've found it often quite useful. I wouldn't worry too much about pitching wipes either, we've got some removal baked into our best spells here and there. Living Death doubles as a wipe/reanimator/win con, Noxious Ghoul is a perpetual board wipe, and if you run Grimgrin, Corpse-Born you have walking spot removal. There's also Mission Briefing, and if you really want to live dangerously, you could always run Dralnu, Lich Lord.

I have always used Grimgin in my zombie decks but couldn't seem to find any room for it here. Is it worth it? At first glance my gut says no. And I actually just cut noxious ghoul for the first time ever as well. I won't know if I miss it until I play with the deck more, but he could very well be added back in. That 5cmc part of the curve is really a problem for me.

edit - I think Grimgrin and his targeted removal is more beneficial than noxious ghoul if you could only pick one. The reason is the sac outlet which can allow you to abuse your recursion and/or win on the spot after a mass reanimate into a couple of aristocratic zombies.

Honestly, I don't worry about it too much personally. Eldrazi Monument has been excellent for me but it's more of a win-con than evasion for the deck. For hard evasion I've found Zombie Master, Lord of the Accursed and Death Baron to be absolutely sufficient. Reconnaissance has the added extra that you can swing with everything and activate for favourable outcomes/blocking the crackback, but I haven't really found myself needing it. In a combat-oriented meta, it'd be worth thinking about though. It's definitely the preferred pick over Cover of Darkness, being cheaper and far more versatile. As far as evasion vs buffs go, buffs have been fine for me. The added bonus is that they generally come on creatures that are tribe-relevant, so there's two birds with one stone in terms of amplifying Varina's attack trigger and making combat favourable. Some of them have added extras too like Diregraf Captain's bleed effect, Lord of the Undead having pseudo-recursion options and such, so they've covered more of the bases I wanted covered than things like Wonder. Filth I've thought about but I don't really need it with Zombie Master in the deck either, so I've left it thus far.

I think Eldrazi Monument is amazing in this deck but I am really going back and forth between it and Coat of Arms. They both are win conditions, except COA will probably help you win much faster, and draw more attention, while EM will do it slower and draw less attention. I guess it depends on how many counterspells and various interaction are in the deck to back up the move to the endgame.

The appeal to me for wonder and/or filth is that they get all their value virtually for free while the deck is doing what it wants to do - cycling through cards. They don't need to be cast or tutored or reanimated to have impact, and they are hard to get rid of. Wonder to me seems like it wants to be in this deck more than just about any other by the very nature of Varina's design. But if you don't need the evasion than no need to run them I suppose. I do, however, live in a very combat oriented meta at times. I might remove filth though as it is redundant with zombie master.

I added Lord of the Undead back in because you can't seem to have enough recursion in a deck like this.

I noticed a lack of Silversmote ghoul in some lists and the primer in general - why? This guy comes back just about every turn if you want him to, draws cards, and has good stats. This is a mystery to me lol. In most of the games I played with the deck so far he was a factor.

In general the recursion I experienced in playing my deck was much better than I anticipated. Because of this I found myself in need of more sac outlets just for the sake of taking advantage of the recursion value and ETBs more consistently so I added Ashnod's Altar back in after removing it in my initial list. Phyrexian Altar looks very tempting as well, but I think I want more colorless mana over less colored mana, and after playing Gisa and Geralf for so long I am a bit tired of phyrexian altar in general. I banished the card to live in my yawgmoth deck and in that deck alone where it belongs rofl.

Out of all the cards, God Eternal-Oketra was the all star MVP so far in my experience and put out the most consistent value - it made me love white zombies so much more.

I am very excited about the new zombie dragon ebondeath dracolich, and much less so the 1cmc shambling ghast - replacing itself with a treasure is nice and helps the lower the curve and make the bigger stuff easier to cast.

[yeti1069]

My experience has been that unless you're playing at rather weak tables, or very creature-light tables, Noxious Ghoul should be in the deck. I tutor for it every few games, because it does SO MUCH WORK. It's the deck's best answer to token swarms and utility creatures, can be used along with any of the instant-speed token generators for all sorts of value, and ensures that you mass reanimation spells almost never hurt you, since you tend to kill everything everyone else gets back with Noxious' triggers. It also acts as psuedo evasion since you can play him, or other zombies before combat to weaken defenders, either turning dangerous trades into chumps, or dissuading blocks altogether.

Silversmote Ghoul just doesn't do enough. I think if it came back untapped, so could act as a blocker, I'd be more excited for it, but as it stands, it's a 3/1 that recurs itself regularly, and occasionally draws a card. For what the deck is usually trying to do, it's not impactful enough, and kind of slow. At 3 mana you could be playing a lord, a drain zombie, or something that draws cards in bunches.

I used to run both Altars in my version of the deck, but cut Ashnod's--getting bigger mana was nice, but the deck is so colored mana intensive that I'd rather have Phyrexian most of the time. That is also goes infinite with some other pieces is a benefit to me (but not if you're looking to avoid combos).

It's interesting that Oketra has performed so well for you. Personally, I've only had big games with it once or twice. Most of the time, it doesn't get cast at all, sometimes comes along with a mass reanimation, and occasionally will make 1 token. It's been rare that I have it, have and 5 mana to cast it, have a zombie I can follow-up cast, and don't have something more impactful to play. I'm still running it, but it's on the chopping block.

Ebondeath looks interesting, and I'm especially interested in a halfway decent zombie with flying, since the deck is so weak to flyers in general (again, Noxious Ghoul helps here a lot), but coming it tapped is a knock against it, and it doesn't really do anything but swing or block, so spending 4 mana a turn cycle on it doesn't seem worthwhile. It's one of those cards that looks decent when you have nothing else to do, but which doesn't actually do enough in those situations to make you glad to have it, I think.

[plaganegra]

My experience has been that unless you're playing at rather weak tables, or very creature-light tables, Noxious Ghoul should be in the deck. I tutor for it every few games, because it does SO MUCH WORK. It's the deck's best answer to token swarms and utility creatures, can be used along with any of the instant-speed token generators for all sorts of value, and ensures that you mass reanimation spells almost never hurt you, since you tend to kill everything everyone else gets back with Noxious' triggers. It also acts as psuedo evasion since you can play him, or other zombies before combat to weaken defenders, either turning dangerous trades into chumps, or dissuading blocks altogether.

I definitely love this card, and in my experience it is mostly relevant during mass reanimate, and since I am not running much in the way of GY tutors like I did in my Gisa & Geralf deck, I am not too excited about a temporary -1/-1 or -3/-3 at a table with a lot of big things that already experiences several board wipes in a game. It is mostly a meta decision for me I would say - but yeah this guy is one of the best zombies imo.

My G&G deck revolved entirely around mass reanimate, toolbox zombies, and combo. After years playing that style including noxious ghoul - if you can tutor up any one zombie into your GY before a mass reanimate spell it is almost always Gray Merchant, not noxious ghoul (but definitely both if possible). I feel the best answer to token swarms and utility creatures (which I rarely care to answer) is just regular old removal - usually the board wipe variety. In higher powered groups your noxious ghoul will just eat removal before it kills anything. (mine always did unless it was a mass reanimate situation). Again, I agree noxious ghoul is very powerful and warrants inclusion. I just am not sure it always has a guaranteed slot in this deck. It really is a meta call...

Silversmote Ghoul just doesn't do enough. I think if it came back untapped, so could act as a blocker, I'd be more excited for it, but as it stands, it's a 3/1 that recurs itself regularly, and occasionally draws a card. For what the deck is usually trying to do, it's not impactful enough, and kind of slow. At 3 mana you could be playing a lord, a drain zombie, or something that draws cards in bunches.

This is where we have a friendly disagreement. You never ever ever should be paying 3 to actually cast this creature. You should be dropping it in the GY, swinging with 3 zombies, and getting it into play for FREE . You are absolutely right - you SHOULD be playing a lord, a drain zombie, or something that draws cards in bunches or anything other than this card, all while getting your silversmote ghoul into play free of charge.

It coming back tapped is not a big issue except for the first time you get him out of the GY.
Consider this sequence:
Silversmote Ghoul is already in play (ideally for free a turn earlier)
Go to attacks
attack with at least 3 zombies
Varina triggers
Damage
main phase 2, or at any point before end step, sac him for a card draw for 1B
end step trigger from life gain - comes right back.

At the absolute minimum you have a beater that never goes away and has a high attack power on free recursion that most people will never want to trade creatures with. Even if you don't have spare mana to draw cards.

When you are sifting with Varina's triggers just drop it in the GY and don't forget the trigger when its available.

As far as I am concerned (and I realize I am new to this discussion), this deck wants to turn zombies sideways. That is the fuel for the engine of the deck with Varina, so having zombies that can be discarded and then come into play for free from the GY seems like exactly what this deck wants to do lol.

This card is fantastic!!!

It's interesting that Oketra has performed so well for you. Personally, I've only had big games with it once or twice. Most of the time, it doesn't get cast at all, sometimes comes along with a mass reanimation, and occasionally will make 1 token. It's been rare that I have it, have and 5 mana to cast it, have a zombie I can follow-up cast, and don't have something more impactful to play. I'm still running it, but it's on the chopping block.

I had it out in one game and nobody wanted to choose it as a removal target because of how easily it just comes back. I think I got at least 6 4/4 zombies off of it that game.

Ebondeath looks interesting, and I'm especially interested in a halfway decent zombie with flying, since the deck is so weak to flyers in general (again, Noxious Ghoul helps here a lot), but coming it tapped is a knock against it, and it doesn't really do anything but swing or block, so spending 4 mana a turn cycle on it doesn't seem worthwhile. It's one of those cards that looks decent when you have nothing else to do, but which doesn't actually do enough in those situations to make you glad to have it, I think.

I just think it's amazing that it has flash on top of its ability to be cast from the GY. To me that seems to open up a lot of interesting lines of play in this deck. You are probably right though, but the art on the showcase variant warrants at least a few solid games with it sleeved up

[Eburon]

Just chiming in on a couple of my experiences.

Noxious Ghoul is hands down one of our best removal pieces. Especially with our builds focused on mass recursion. I also run Archfiend of Ifnir, which has performed really well for me. While not a zombie, it's synergy with Varina is amazing.

God-Eternal Oketra: I have never actually cast it when I played my deck. I always ended up chucking it in my GY. I think I maybe played it once, and it was not impactful enough to keep it.

Silversmote Ghoul: Sure, IF the stars align, it is a free zombie that keeps drawing cards once per turn cycle. However, we have access to more efficient card draw and better zombies than that.

Ebondeath, Dracolich: I think it is worth exploring, but it will likely not be impactful enough to stick around. It is just a 5/2 beat stick.

[plaganegra]

Discarding it and gaining at least 3 life is not exactly "the stars aligning" more "average turn" in my experience lol. Silversmote Ghoul rewards you for just playing the deck.

I had archfiend of ifnir in my initial build and had the same problem I always did with noxious ghoul which was - killed on sight by targeted removal. Both are great cards. Again, I play in a pretty powerful meta fueled with all kinds of interaction and crazy combos galore. Not cedh by any means, but just a couple steps below that probably. High level threats dont stick for long. Especially board wipes on sticks. I am not trying to slaughter a sacred cow, it's more of a style and meta decision.

Mass reanimate should just win even without ghoul in the grave. It can be "win more" sometimes in that scenario. I tend to focus on having aristocrats and gray merchant of asphodel in my GY to win on the spot, and noxious ghoul usually doesn't matter in that scenario. Again, in my experience.

Free Recursion seems like a blindspot in the deckbuilding here, and I think it is the easiest way to trigger Varina consistently and dig into the deck, that and token generation. So with ebondeath dracolich - It is another zombie you can get back from the grave without any real support required - just cast it when something dies. You can trigger it or wait a turn, something will likely die before its your turn again. By any means, not guaranteed to make the cut, but this is a source of repeatable and consistent card advantage that can be built into the fabric of the deck. Free recursion, and things that can be cast from the GY is a huge advantage of this tribe and really seems to make Varina churn.

edit - I just noticed that dracolich can go infinite at instant speed with Rooftop Storm and any sac outlet. Neat, another zombie combo.

[Eburon]

Discarding it and gaining at least 3 life is not exactly "the stars aligning" more "average turn" in my experience lol. Silversmote Ghoul rewards you for just playing the deck.

I guess my point is that you have to have at least 3 zombies in play with the ability to swing (you may not always want to swing each of them). Also, you have to spend (1)B to draw a card. It is conditional and without Varina it is very lackluster card.

I had archfiend of ifnir in my initial build and had the same problem I always did with noxious ghoul which was - killed on sight by targeted removal. Both are great cards. Again, I play in a pretty powerful meta fueled with all kinds of interaction and crazy combos galore. Not cedh by any means, but just a couple steps below that probably. High level threats dont stick for long. Especially board wipes on sticks. I am not trying to slaughter a sacred cow, it's more of a style and meta decision.

Mass reanimate should just win even without ghoul in the grave. It can be "win more" sometimes in that scenario. I tend to focus on having aristocrats and gray merchant of asphodel in my GY to win on the spot, and noxious ghoul usually doesn't matter in that scenario. Again, in my experience.

Just because good cards get removed doesn't mean you shouldn't play them. Ghoul and Archfiend can serve a purpose before they get removed, so you already got your value out of them. If something is worth being removed, it is a good indication that it is a strong card to play.

While mass recursion should win, doesn't mean it always does on it's own. Sometimes that boardwipe might buy you the turn you need depending on your opponent's board state.

Free Recursion seems like a blindspot in the deckbuilding here, and I think it is the easiest way to trigger Varina consistently and dig into the deck, that and token generation. So with ebondeath dracolich - It is another zombie you can get back from the grave without any real support required - just cast it when something dies. You can trigger it or wait a turn, something will likely die before its your turn again. By any means, not guaranteed to make the cut, but this is a source of repeatable and consistent card advantage that can be built into the fabric of the deck. Free recursion, and things that can be cast from the GY is a huge advantage of this tribe and really seems to make Varina churn.

Ebondeath, Dracolich isn't free though. You have the opportunity to recast it for 2BB, but it also means you are not advancing your game plan by casting more crucial stuff.

[plaganegra]

Discarding it and gaining at least 3 life is not exactly "the stars aligning" more "average turn" in my experience lol. Silversmote Ghoul rewards you for just playing the deck.

I guess my point is that you have to have at least 3 zombies in play with the ability to swing (you may not always want to swing each of them). Also, you have to spend (1)B to draw a card. It is conditional and without Varina it is very lackluster card.

I think you are looking at this one card, silversmote ghoul, in a vacuum while I am seeing a card advantage package as a whole with free recursion. You are not wrong in what you are saying about these lackluster recursion creatures on their own, but as a unit they can do serious work in a deck like this, and they are fairly easy to get back for free. I do realize the new dragon is not free, but it is a self contained recursion zombie that requires virtually no support (any other creature dying triggers it) to bring back. Heck you can hold up instant speed removal and choose to trigger it yourself before you untap. To me it opens up possibilities for tempo-oriented play where you can respond and add threats. Like any zombie, it also gets better with cost reduction on the field, and a 5 power flying recurable beater is likely to help you trigger Varina quite consistently.

Zombie beats yo.

For reference, this is a rough idea of the card advantage/recursion package, as I see it currently, that I am referencing:

Gravecrawler (obviously)
Master of Death (basically draw a card for one life with a varina trigger every turn)
Prized Amalgam (def a package kinda zombie, doesn't work without the rest)
Silversmote Ghoul (as discussed)
ebondeath dracolich (as discussed)
call to the netherworld (free card off a varina trigger basically reads "instead of discarding a card, put the best zombie in your GY into your hand")
Buried Alive (since the truly free zombie cards work best in small groups)
Intuition, entomb, etc (if you really want to go all in on this sort of thing, probably not necessary at all with the cycling varina does when you have cheap recurable attackers. I am not running these personally.)
Kindred Discovery (recursion ETB triggers for days. One of the many payoffs to using such a package is these sorts of effects - mainly varina's attack triggers, oketra's cast triggers, etc. You can see what the options are in your deck.)

To me these cards all work together to give some very nice built in card advantage/recursion in the deck. They grease the wheels so to speak, and some are good on their own. But you probably don't run several of them without the rest. They provide bodies that turn sideways and trigger varina. Players usually don't like blocking them because the trade feels bad. And when they die you just get them back, save grave hate. They give the incremental advantage in the midgame that can overwhelm opponents while leading to the endgame, where you really only need a couple key zombies in the yard with a mass reanimate effect, if you haven't beaten them to death with zombies already lol.

I'm not saying it is the absolute best way, only you can really decide what is "best" for your playgroup and individual style. But it is certainly competitive and viable and I was surprised not to see it in the primer under options for directions to go with the deck. Anyway that's my 2 cents and this was my immediate go to when building the deck before finding this forum!

Edit - Intuition might actually be better than Buried alive in this deck, which is interesting. It replacing itself, and being an instant is extremely relevant. Having a card in hand that you want to discard when you are in cycling mode provides extra card advantage, and having an instant helps the reactive gameplay options... I also noticed that many of us run exactly 3 mass reanimate spells. You could cast this right before you untap and get one to win the game if the opportunity arises. Pact of negation really helps in that scenario if you go all in like that. Or any redundant removal item as an instant speed demonic tutor-esque effect.

edit - Seperately I have to ask, because I see many repeating this sentiment of "why cast a zombie or waste time recurring a zombie when you should be doing more critical stuff?" What is the critical stuff? As far as I can tell casting and swinging with zombies is "the critical stuff" that makes the deck work. If you do that enough you will win the game with the proper support in the deck. Yeah that relies on Varina, but isn't that the point?

Sorry to keep posting a wall of text, I just love zombie strategy and until I found Nexus I had nobody to chat with lol, this is somewhat of a release of pent up creative deckbuilding energy! My apologies if it comes off as anything other than just "excited to be here."

[toctheyounger]

I think the crucial stuff being referred to is the non-zombie advantage suite.Rhystic Study, Tombstone Stairwell, the draw doublers, and the mass reanimators. This is stuff that can't really be cast any cheaper or any other way. Its generally been the experience that in all but the most optimal conditions there really isn't enough mana per turn to play out zombies optimally, set up an infrastructure and hold up mana for removal and permission, so it does get a little tough, in my experience, optimizing lines of play is pretty important (read: as much as I might lean low on the curve this isn't Edgar Markov). Frankly its pretty rare I get to just vomit my hand onto the table. That might well be why Rooftop Storm is run by some folks here, and i think it pairs pretty well with Kindred Discovery too. I run neither, mostly because they are just a tad win-more, and I know the deck is capable of victory without them.

In terms of spot reanimation I think a lot of the options are a tab suboptimal Apprentice Necromancer has been pretty excellent for me, and I've toyed with the possibility of Prized Amalgam joining the ranks, but otherwise its all slightly harder to work around than I'd like. Even Relentless Dead, which i do quite like, is pretty costly to use effectively. I'd personally like another couple of good, optimal reanimators before I lean into the area myself.

Silversmote Ghoul seems ok, and ill admit I haven't actually trialed it. I think what makes me hesitant is that it doesn't do any of its things very well. Entering tapped isn't the end of the world, but it isn't ideal either. Gaining 3 life isn't overly hard but it isn't a given either (although to be fair between Varina, aristocrats and Gary and Vault of the Archangel its pretty achievable), and the draw isn't that well costed. That being said, maybe its versatile enough to warrant trialing at least.

Ebondeath, Dracolich...I can't get excited about it. For the same reasons Liliana, Untouched by Death got the chop. Its fine, but it's more than I want to spend to do what it does. Adding Flash in is fine but that doesn't mean it's not a lot of mana to hold up As it is if I find I really need bodies in okay outside of my turn Apprentice Necromancer can get me something. The only place I really see it being worth running is flying, and I don't think that's enough myself. Is flying is going to lose you the game one dragon is pretty unlikely to be the difference between victory and loss.

This is definitely an area I do want to go in though, it'd just be nice to have some better pieces to work on reanimator chains with. I think if I were to incorporate this into my creature lineup it'd probably be worth adding an altar in too. Probably Ashnod's Altar. Less likely to hard combo but still providing plenty of resource advantage; colors i have sorted, so bulk mana would likely be more helpful.

[plaganegra]

I think the crucial stuff being referred to is the non-zombie advantage suite.Rhystic Study, Tombstone Stairwell, the draw doublers, and the mass reanimators. This is stuff that can't really be cast any cheaper or any other way. Its generally been the experience that in all but the most optimal conditions there really isn't enough mana per turn to play out zombies optimally, set up an infrastructure and hold up mana for removal and permission, so it does get a little tough, in my experience, optimizing lines of play is pretty important (read: as much as I might lean low on the curve this isn't Edgar Markov). Frankly its pretty rare I get to just vomit my hand onto the table. That might well be why Rooftop Storm is run by some folks here, and i think it pairs pretty well with Kindred Discovery too. I run neither, mostly because they are just a tad win-more, and I know the deck is capable of victory without them.

see the bolded section...

I think everyone has the same goal here, and the desire to drop bombs like Tombstone stairwell and Rhystic Study (which I don't use just because its a card I am quite sick of seeing at every table in every game), and friends even emphasizes the need for some free beaters in the deck to ease the struggle of "what do I cast". It allows you to get zombies out and use your mana to do all of that fun stuff instead. The deck runs very smooth when you are getting value for free from triggers allowing you to build a board while sculpting the hand and casting impactful, synergistic spells, or controlling the game.

Either way, I will happily be developing this sort of version of the deck and I will let everyone know how it goes. It is certainly a different subset of cards that should be interesting at the least, maybe even sneaky good.

[Eburon]

I have to concur with @toctheyounger on the "critical stuff" and the fact that the deck is fairly mana hungry. I often find that I am not doing terribly much in a turn and if I look at my options, I'd rather drop a Death Baron or Lord of the Undead than Silversmote Ghoul. The ghoul is an option in a flex slot, but not a crucial part of the deck imho.

Ebondeath, Dracolich is not terrible, but I'd rather run Rise of the Dread Marn, and that card I have tested and is suboptimal because you rarely have the open mana for it. We are more of a proactive deck rather than a reactive deck.

[plaganegra]

I feel like I am beating a dead horse now, so I will just point out one more time and then shut up about it lol.

You do not cast the silversmote ghoul. none. no casty...

Consider this entirely hypothetical scenario presented simply to illustrate the point:

Cast your preferred zombie on T3, then T4 cast varina, swing and drop the ghoul in the GY. If you curved out and attacked with three zombies (yay! this is rare in zombies so congrats lol), then you get it free as early as T4 end step, but more reliably in the midgame/late game.

Of course, sometimes the only thing you might be able to do is cast the ghoul. Not ideal, but this shouldn't be the norm in a Varina deck. In that scenario, you are probably not doing well anyway... All of the three drops you mentioned are not mutually exclusive. They can cohabitate in the same deck!

Also consider the number of cards routinely dropping in the GY from cycling that do absolutely nothing on their own and require a reanimation spell to utilize. Are they really better all of the time?

You might have more mana open for wonderful token generators such as lazotep chancellor and rise of the dread marn (which has always been great for me) if the list was supplemented with more value free zombie guys . If it is so hard to keep open one black for either you might just want to consider what I am saying.

[toctheyounger]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I get how the ghoul gets cheated in. It makes sense. And in fairness it could well be pretty reliable.

Honestly at this point I just don't know whatd get the cut to trial it. The deck is at that point where it gets really tough to make cuts effectively without cutting something that's pretty great.

[plaganegra]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I get how the ghoul gets cheated in. It makes sense. And in fairness it could well be pretty reliable.

Honestly at this point I just don't know whatd get the cut to trial it. The deck is at that point where it gets really tough to make cuts effectively without cutting something that's pretty great.

No need if you don't want to, my group get's together almost weekly and I will gladly report back with more detailed thoughts and experiences. They might get sick of playing against Varina all night though lol.

I have finally settled on a list after dozens of changes and alterations to my version. No more until I test it out a bunch. I love how versatile this commander is!

Decklist

DecklistCMCManaPricesChartsDraw 7

Commander:

1 Varina, Lich Queen

Creatures (32)

1 Carrion Feeder

1 Cryptbreaker

1 Gravecrawler

1 Binding Mummy

1 Corpse Knight

1 Lazotep Chancellor

1 Relentless Dead

1 Shepherd of Rot

1 Undead Augur

1 Wayward Servant

1 Death Baron

1 Diregraf Captain

1 Diregraf Colossus

1 Lord of the Undead

1 Master of Death

1 Midnight Reaper

1 Plague Belcher

1 Prized Amalgam

1 Silversmote Ghoul

1 Corpse Augur

1 Filth

1 Forgotten Creation

1 Graveborn Muse

1 Tormod, the Desecrator

1 Undead Warchief

1 Vengeful Dead

1 Wonder

1 Bone Miser

1 God-Eternal Oketra

1 Gray Merchant of Asphodel

1 Grimgrin, Corpse-Born

1 Mikaeus, the Unhallowed

Artifacts (10)

1 Mana Crypt

1 Sol Ring

1 Arcane Signet

1 Talisman of Dominance

1 Talisman of Hierarchy

1 Archaeomancer's Map

1 Ashnod's Altar

1 Herald's Horn

1 Alhammarret's Archive

1 Eldrazi Monument

Instants (9)

1 Pact of Negation

1 Swan Song

1 Swords to Plowshares

1 Cyclonic Rift

1 Despark

1 Mission Briefing

1 Anguished Unmaking

1 Intuition

1 Rise of the Dread Marn

Sorcery (9)

1 Call to the Netherworld

1 Damn

1 Winds of Abandon

1 Cleansing Meditation

1 Toxic Deluge

1 Windfall

1 Living Death

1 Patriarch's Bidding

1 Zombie Apocalypse

Enchantments (5)

1 Land Tax

1 Reconnaissance

1 Teferi's Ageless Insight

1 Tombstone Stairwell

1 Kindred Discovery

Lands (34)

1 Ancient Tomb

1 Bojuka Bog

1 Cavern of Souls

1 Command Tower

1 Crypt of Agadeem

1 Dimir Aqueduct

1 Fabled Passage

1 Flooded Strand

1 Godless Shrine

2 Island

1 Marsh Flats

1 Morphic Pool

1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx

1 Orzhov Basilica

1 Phyrexian Tower

2 Plains

1 Polluted Delta

1 Prismatic Vista

1 Reliquary Tower

1 Scrubland

4 Swamp

1 Tundra

1 Unclaimed Territory

1 Underground Sea

1 Unholy Grotto

1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

1 Vault of Champions

1 Vault of the Archangel

1 Watery Grave

Approximate Total Cost:

Noxious Ghoul could very well be in there instead of Grimgrin, corpse-born
Cleansing Meditation could be austere command
filth could be zombie master
winds of abandon I am unsure about in general. Could easily become teferi's protection or another counterspell

These are the cards I am not completely settled on, but I want to test my theories on how they play in context.

If I wanted to make it stronger right off the bat, I would add phyrexian altar, Rhystic Study, and demonic tutor / vampiric tutor. I'm just not interested in using these cards right now, which is a non-competitive decision.

[yeti1069]

re: Silversmote Ghoul, it's less about not wanting to spend a turn playing it (the synergy is obvious). It's more, what do you cut for it? I think it's probably better than Putrid Goblin, but what else does it edge out?

[Eburon]

I guess @toctheyounger and @yeti1069 explain my point on Silversmote more accurately. I may not have been great at explaining my reasoning. I feel that my list is pretty tight as it is. I think it is a possible flex option, but it is hard to cut something for it. I definitely prefer Silversmote over Ebondeath.

[plaganegra]

re: Silversmote Ghoul, it's less about not wanting to spend a turn playing it (the synergy is obvious). It's more, what do you cut for it? I think it's probably better than Putrid Goblin, but what else does it edge out?

This seems like a very easy swap to me personally.

When it comes to "what else?" I think it really depends how much of the deck you want to dedicate to "free" stuff.

Cards I would consider replacing in the primer list, as an example. If you want the deck to be less mana heavy:

-1 Zombie Master +1 Filth or wonder - I prefer wonder, but am using both. Same effect for free, doesn't give your opponents zombies the buff (relevant with tombstone stairwell and opposing field of the dead).

-1 Liliana's standard bearer +1 Rise of the dread marn. cheaper to cast, easier to use reactively. Zombie tokens vs draws.

I think I need to find room for withered wretch in my decklist. How often do you love having it?

[Eburon]

Cards I would consider replacing in the primer list, as an example. If you want the deck to be less mana heavy:

-1 Zombie Master +1 Filth or wonder - I prefer wonder, but am using both. Same effect for free, doesn't give your opponents zombies the buff (relevant with tombstone stairwell and opposing field of the dead).

-1 Liliana's standard bearer +1 Rise of the dread marn. cheaper to cast, easier to use reactively. Zombie tokens vs draws.

I think I need to find room for withered wretch in my decklist. How often do you love having it?

Personally, I prefer Zombie Master over Filth/Wonder because it is an extra body that recurs with Patriarch's Bidding, and it can also trigger Varina's attack trigger. That said, both those cards are definitely options.

Standard Bearer vs Rise comes down to preference. Both have their use, but I am not 100% sold on either yet. I currently use Standard Bearer, but I am considering other options. This is a slot I could potentially see open up for Silversmote Ghoul.

Withered Wretch is awesome. It is an early drop, and it can keep troublesome stuff out of your opponents GY. It is just a good utility card.

[Eburon]

For those of you who are planning to add Sword of the Animist: It just got a reprint in one of the commander decks.

[plaganegra]

Anyone see Death Tyrant?

Interesting, wish it wasn't a 5 drop. It triggers when your opponent's creatures die even when it's not your combat phase.

Also interesting that it has built in recursion similar to ebondeath dracolich. Definitely a card I want to try out and it could get out of control quickly, but probably won't make the cut simply because of the competition in the slot and because it is not itself a zombie. It is so close to being really good, but probably not. I'm sad that these are skeletons and not zombies in the set, but I understand why. And I also wish the Devils were Demons. Skeletons and Devils are not really relevant tribes...

[Eburon]

Even though it is not a zombie, it does have an ability that supports what we do. It can get out of hand quickly.

[Nimbaway]

The cmc on Death Tyrant is a worry, though being able to cast it from the yard makes it easier to discard it earlier. Not being a zombie hurts for sure, but it has an interesting effect especially in multiplayer. Would have liked it a bit more if it didn't rely on the creatures attacking or blocking, but could make it awkward for people to choose to chump block. It's one of those cards that probably ends up being situationally good and not do enough consistently, which makes the cmc my biggest worry.

Ebondeath, Dracolich only upside to me is it being a flyer, but that's not enough for me to run it. The lists for Varina have become rather tight nowadays and we want creatures to do more.

Did finally get to doing my MH2 updates to the deck and opted to get rid of Dance of the Manse , Bone Miser , Zombie Infestation en Eldrazi Monument in an effort to narrow down some of the strategies and removing some of the top end cards that have performed nicely on occasion but not too consistently.

I tried to give Silversmote Ghoul some more consideration, but the only positive I could give it was that it would be nice sac fodder for Eldrazi Monument, which is situational to begin with and I just cut that card. The deck requires a lot of mana as it is and that makes the card draw on it less reliable, not to mention that when behind you might not have the lifegain going to trigger it making a regular draw spell feel much better on it. Add in that you can't exploit it with something like sacrificing it to an altar to pay for the draw and it coming in tapped prevents it from being a blocker. I might have liked it slightly more if it just returned to hand instead of the battlefield but just can't justify the card enough to run it in my list.

[RedCheese]

Wand of Orcus is interesting. Tough it doesn't exactly fit the deck's game plan

[Eburon]

It doesn't hurt it either. It creates favorable attacks and forces opponents into uncomfortable decisions.