Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

[Eburon]

For me, the worst part about Wight is that it enters tapped.

[pokken]

Painful Truths and Rhystic Study do very different things so I'd be wary about thinking of them interchangeably. Study is undoubtedly the better card but it restocks later, whereas Truths restocks now.

The reason I recommended stuff like Epiphany at the Drownyard and Fact or Fiction and (though it's much less good imho) Painful Truths is that this deck design tends to need cards now, not later. You often want a draw spell you can surprise people with, by say, casting it at the end step, untapping and exploding -- or casting it main phase then finishing them off. Study is a much slower burn.

I do think it's probable you will win more games on the balance with Study but you'll also likely have a lot more non-games; no one is ever going to counter your Painful Truths to hit land drops on turn 3 but they sure as heck will kill Rhystic Study once they get used to seeing you untap with 10 cards.

The rhystic study play pattern is: I play study, and hope at least one of my opponents is bad at magic and will feed my study. When they do, I win triumphantly with a mammoth hand of cards, because once one person starts feeding it everyone else has to. It's a hideous play pattern that basically depends on your opponents being dumb.

Generally speaking the experience with draw spells is much more consistent but not as powerful.

(Note: I do play Rhystic Study on occasion but usually in a deck where I have a lot of counterspells and usually other similar effects like Mystic Remora. It gains a lot of value if you're going to engage in counterspell wars vs. being proactive, since you can gain more from the tempo).

[Eburon]

This response is exactly why I asked the question. I think Study is a supplementary piece in the draw suite rather than a core piece if that makes sense? I probably will cut either of these pieces:
Liliana, Untouched by Death
Mirrorweave
Teferi's Ageless Insight
Despark

[pokken]

This response is exactly why I asked the question. I think Study is a supplementary piece in the draw suite rather than a core piece if that makes sense? I probably will cut either of these pieces:
Liliana, Untouched by Death
Mirrorweave
Teferi's Ageless Insight
Despark

IF you wanted feedback I think Lily is definitely the worst of those cards.

[yeti1069]

I'll second Pokken on that. I had Liliana in my deck for a while, and even with a Rooftop Storm (which would be BONKERS with her ultimate), I never cast her. I always either had better cards in hand, or couldn't protect her for a turn to make the -3 worth using.

[toctheyounger]

This response is exactly why I asked the question. I think Study is a supplementary piece in the draw suite rather than a core piece if that makes sense? I probably will cut either of these pieces:
Liliana, Untouched by Death
Mirrorweave
Teferi's Ageless Insight
Despark

IF you wanted feedback I think Lily is definitely the worst of those cards.

I'll second Pokken on that. I had Liliana in my deck for a while, and even with a Rooftop Storm (which would be BONKERS with her ultimate), I never cast her. I always either had better cards in hand, or couldn't protect her for a turn to make the -3 worth using.

Hard agree here, too. Lily is fine in that all of her abilities are somewhat useful, but none of them are really useful enough to justify a slot over something like Rhystic Study.

Speaking of which, @pokken is right, Truths and Study do occupy different spaces. I think Fact or Fiction or Epiphany at the Drownyard are more comparable to Truths than Study is. I've yet to draw into Epiphany at the Drownyard, but personally I think the ceiling is higher for value with Fact or Fiction than Painful Truths. Partly because it's an instant, partly because it has the potential to dig deeper, and partly because it can allow you to stock your yard - two birds, one stone.

On top of that, it's a really, really good way to establish some unknowns about your opponents (this probably applies to Epiphany too fwiw). It gives you a great idea of how well they make decisions under pressure, and gives you a good idea of what they think of your deck. Quite often I'll find people miss the mark and piles things in a way that bare minimum breaks parity or gives me a pretty favourable decision. Honestly, it's one of my favourite cards in the game, purely because there's very few other ways to test threat assessment mid-game the way Fact does.

As far as Rhystic Study goes, it's my experience that people don't run nearly enough removal, nor permission. This probably changes with a fixed meta that know what you bring to the table, but most games I join I don't even see a board wipe, let alone any sort of targeted destruction. I think it helps that Varina is generally seen as an innocuous general that isn't as dangerous as other common commanders, and swinging with zombies once a turn cycle is fairly harmless, so unless I'm really hitting my stride I do get left alone a little (which in turn allows me to hold up resources for board answers, wipes, counters, etc). Nonetheless, Study is a known danger, so there very much is every chance it doesn't resolve or doesn't last long. In my experience, Mystic Remora doesn't garner the same level of attention, but then it doesn't last as long either. Both are worth running for minimal input draw, but neither should really be relied upon to last for ever.

[Eburon]

@pokken Any feedback is always appreciated. Lili was there in case I wanted to slot in Rooftop Storm. Also, here second ability is pretty ok with a decent board state. That said, it is definitely not an essential piece. I think I played her once after a board wipe and used her ultimate to drop 4-5 zombies out of my yard (I didn't have mass recursion).

The reason I am mostly considering her or Mirrorweave is because they each serve a different purpose. Mirrorweave can allow you to win with an existing board state. Lili can rebuild your board. Different purposes. As I discover my new meta locally better, time will tell which is better. If there is a lot of mass removal, being able to rebuild my board may have more value?

[toctheyounger]

@pokken Any feedback is always appreciated. Lili was there in case I wanted to slot in Rooftop Storm. Also, here second ability is pretty ok with a decent board state. That said, it is definitely not an essential piece. I think I played her once after a board wipe and used her ultimate to drop 4-5 zombies out of my yard (I didn't have mass recursion).

The reason I am mostly considering her or Mirrorweave is because they each serve a different purpose. Mirrorweave can allow you to win with an existing board state. Lili can rebuild your board. Different purposes. As I discover my new meta locally better, time will tell which is better. If there is a lot of mass removal, being able to rebuild my board may have more value?

Of those two, probably, yeah. Mirrorweave is definitely my pet card, and you know what they say about pet cards - they're never as good as you think they are. That being said its not without its uses.

I think there's probably easier ways to rebuild board state post wipe than Lili though. Even something like Rise of the Dark Realms, as costly as it is, probably ends up being cheaper than Lili and a Rooftop Storm. Theres plenty of room for redundancy in mass reanimation too, we've never even talked about Pyrrhic Revival here. I think most of those spells would be superior in achieving what you want to do.

For what its worth though I generally don't think much of Rooftop Storm. Its a home run for flavour and if it does resolve theres a pretty good chance of ending the game, but in a vacuum you really need a stacked hand or something to help you dig zombies out; Kindred Discovery probably, but then you're shelling a lot of mana to go off and maybe win, maybe not. I see why people run it, I just think its a lot of mana to use for something that won't win you the game on its own.

[yeti1069]

Rooftop has been good for me about 75% of the time that I've drawn it (maybe a little more).
By itself, it usually means dumping your whole hand worth of zombies for 6 mana, which is decent. At worst, it usually amounts to pay 6 for 2 zombies, or pay mana normally for 1 this turn, so even getting two is usually worth it.
With Havengul Lich it's pay : reanimate target zombie in your yard.
Then it also goes infinite with a few cards (rarely).
With Kindred Discovery out, I've played up to 20 cards in a turn.

When it hasn't been useful, it's gotten pitched to Varina.

As an aside, I like Havengul (even though it's 5 mana), because it acts as repeatable reanimation, and can steal creatures from other graveyards. I've definitely gotten someone else's Archaeomancer more than once to good effect.

[Eburon]

I am torn on Rooftop Storm. It is expensive, but it's payoff can be great. If you run it with Liliana, it becomes a combo piece.

I am not 100% sold on Havengul Lich. As a standalone card, it competes with The Scarab God. God has more upside because of it's static ability, and the flat cost of 4 to reanimate vs 1 + CMC. That said, it also has a bigger target on it's back.

And, I absolutely get playing pet cards @toctheyounger. They add your own personal flavor to a deck, which is always a great idea. And, I agree that Pyrrhic Revival is superior to Liliana if I just want to rebuild my board. I didn't even realize that card existed to be fair. Heck, Haunting Voyage and Balthor the Defiled exist as mass recursion options over Liliana.

[yeti1069]

I ended up dropping Scarab god fairly early for a few reasons. It's not a zombie, so all the cards that care about such things either miss him (Zombie Apocalypse, Patriarch's Bidding, lords), or hit him (Noxious Ghoul). I had a few games in a row where he was getting killed by my own Ghoul. Then, his ability exiles, which means giving up future advantage. The static ability is strong, but he's such a huge target, the god rarely sticks around for a full turn cycle in my experience.

Havengul is slower, and a little less impactful, but cards like Karador, Ghost Chieftain are pretty powerful, and essentially work the same way (cast the card from the yard, rather than skipping on cost with traditional reanimation). The Lich is repeatable with enough mana/cheap enough targets. I've definitely used it on Rot Hulk many times to then reanimate 3 other zombies for 8 mana (or 1 mana with Rooftop out).

In terms of Havengul vs Liliana, Havengul is still a zombie, so it triggers and benefits from all the zombie things, and can swing in to hit players and planeswalkers, or block, and doesn't require any defense beyond simply being a creature that dies to removal. Liliana needs to be defended, and doesn't do much of anything the turn it drops unless you have the mana open to cast her AND use her "ultimate" ability. And if you're not doing that, you need to defend her, which often means not swinging with Varina & Co for triggers. Yes, it combos with Rooftop, but I don't like including cards that don't do much outside of a combo, and Liliana fits solidly in that space. By all means, try her out, but I found that I just never cast her. And the few times I considered it, she was going to be 4 mana + mana cost of a creature, which just ended up being too high--that's basically Havengul at that point, without any of the upside of being a zombie creature, and being unable to wait a turn because planeswalkers get hated out pretty quickly (especially in a deck that's so weak to flyers).

[toctheyounger]

I too cut Scarab a little while ago and haven't missed it. Matter of fact I just recently traded my only copy for store credit; I bought a copy a couple years back for a few bucks and now its worth a lot more, no regrets here.

Havengul Lich I've had in and out of the list from time to time. What keeps me cutting it is that, to the best of my knowledge I don't ever remember having activated its ability, nor having the mana spare for that to be an option. Grabted, having added Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx i don't recall the last time I saw it in game, but nonetheless its costly. Sure, its very nice utility, but with the outlay of said utility I've generally found the cost is trading off loss of tempo to do it, and I find that maintaining a good tempo is key to keeping my hand full and getting there for a win.

[RedCheese]

Acererak, Lord of Unlife well then ladies and gentleman. i know is a 2 card combo with Rooftop Storm , and im not usually keen for infinite combos, but is so thematic that i can't help using it.

[yeti1069]

How does it go infinite? After 4 ETBs you will have completed the Tomb of Annihilation and then he doesn't bounce himself anymore. On the way there, you can have everyone lose 5 life unless they discard a card and sac something, and you end up with a 5/5 with an ok attack trigger and a 4/4 token.

Without Rooftop he looks awful, since there aren't that many "enter the dungeon" cards that the deck would be running otherwise. 3 mana for any but the last effect is simply not worth while, so you're looking at spending 12 mana before you get anything of value.

[Nimbaway]

Not liking Acererak, Lord of Unlife either, the whole venturing through the dungeon isn't something this deck will do reliably. So only with Rooftop Storm you are going to make it stick. And to be honest I'm not even that impressed with the attack trigger, because it doesn't even guarantee a zombie token.

Currently I'm not really feeling the new set, there is a few cards I'm slotting into my peasant cube but for my Commander decks I've yet to see anything I really like. The dungeon mechanic and the dice rolling mechanic are likely just too limiting outside the set.

[toctheyounger]

I'm not personally that tied to the dungeon mechanic myself, its weird and parasitic and of fairly varied value. This guy seems ok, I quite like the attack trigger, abd its nice that it doesn't cost 5CMC like most of the other stuff we try to squeeze in.

Presumably if you don't actually run the dungeon you can't complete said dungeon, and thus will continue to bounce. You'd need Wayward Servant to close the game out if this is the case. I'm happy to be proven wrong with this ruling though, I honestly haven't looked at the mechanic enough to know how it works in depth.

Combo aside though, it is a nice way to get tokens in play or level the battlefield, so it might well be worth a space just for the attack trigger and place in the curve. It does subtract from the scenario being either/or rather than both but card would've been way overpowered if it weren't.

[RedCheese]

The thing with Acererak, Lord of Unlife is that you don't ever venture into Tomb of Annahilatio. You go to the Mine dungeon where you drain your opponents as your win con. With Rooftop Storm, you venture to the other dungeon infinitly*, where you draw all cards in your deck, create tons of treasure and drains your opponents. Thats the combo. Yeah without Rooftop Storm, he isn't impressive per say, but still counts as a zombie for toher shenanigans atleast. His ponit would be the infintie combo mainlly.

[Eburon]

Here's the thing with Acererak, Lord of Unlife : Would you pay 12 to scry 1, create a treasure token, drain your opponents for 1 each and draw a card? (using Lost Mine as an example).

Sure, it combos with Rooftop Storm, but so do other cards that most of us don't run. Standalone, it is a pretty bad card.

[plaganegra]

What are current thoughts on running cover of darkness vs reconnaissance

I just converted my zombie edh from Gisa and Geralf to Varina, Lich Queen and got a few games in yesterday. This thread was super helpful in getting a general idea of some of the more noteworthy interactions that are possible.

The biggest thing - Varina solves all of the problems Gisa & Geralf have by filtering instead of milling, gaining life so it can be readily used as a resource to draw cards, and adding white which opens up so many answers. I will really miss the toolbox capabilities of G&G and the reanimate ability, but the tradeoff feels like a no brainer at this point.

Overall my initial impression is extremely bullish on the switch and I have been playing Gisa & Geralf since the card was printed. Zombies are my favorite tribe and this is my pet deck so it took a long time to come around.

I'll post my list at some point. I prefer a competitive decklist as my group is fairly powerful, but I don't enjoy fast combos. Even if I have one in my deck I tend to never go to it unless a game is stalled out or my options to win are very poor otherwise.

Thanks!
This is my first post in this forum - I was a long time MTGSalvation user, had no idea this website existed after MTGS went under.

[RedCheese]

Here's the thing with Acererak, Lord of Unlife : Would you pay 12 to scry 1, create a treasure token, drain your opponents for 1 each and draw a card? (using Lost Mine as an example).

Sure, it combos with Rooftop Storm, but so do other cards that most of us don't run. Standalone, it is a pretty bad card.

Pay 12? What? Pay six for Rooftop Storm and summon Acerak, and if no interaction, win the game on the spot. If you complete the Mine you can enter it again and do the loop.

Yes by it self isn't that impressive, but Varinna can discard it and still interact with other zombies in some way. I really believe you guys haven't understood the combo. Makes sense since Enetrinng the Dungeon is a new mechanic, but dismiss it at first look.

[Nimbaway]

I think we understand the combo, but you're only looking at it from the perspective when/if you have Rooftop Storm on the board. It's only nice in my opinion when you have both and most of our builds aren't geared to creating combos consistently. It's fine that you want to run and use it, we all have our pet cards that we slot in decks after all and that adds variety. We just happen to value it less when it comes to our decks and gameplans.

[pokken]

Acererak the Archlich's failure mode is pretty horrible, basically a brick. You'd find yourself wishing he was Night's Whisper basically 100% of the time.

The combo is reasonably powerful because Rooftop Storm is a pretty good card in its own right, but I'm not sure it's all that great. I think if you wanted to combo in Varina you'd probably want to just do the Phyrexian Altar / Gravecrawler dance.

[Hawk]

Agreed that I think Acererak the Archlich (and Dungeon Crawler with him) feel a bit too slow, even for a deck with Rooftop Storm. Storm is already a win-more in most games, and already goes infinite with Gravecrawler + Sac Outlets (which are cards generally more useful outside the combo). My version of Varina runs literally every card that would combo off with Acererak (not just Rooftop but also all the "when a zombie enters" cards like Binding Mummy, Diregraf Colossus, Wayward Servant, and Noxious Ghoul) and I'm still not sure I'm into it. What will be interesting to see is if that combo is strong enough for Sefris of the Hidden Ways, but that's a totally different deck.

I do like Wight mostly for the efficient body, but this set is otherwise a bit of a whiff so far - which is fine, Varina is already a strong deck.

[toctheyounger]

What are current thoughts on running cover of darkness vs reconnaissance

I just converted my zombie edh from Gisa and Geralf to Varina, Lich Queen and got a few games in yesterday. This thread was super helpful in getting a general idea of some of the more noteworthy interactions that are possible.

The biggest thing - Varina solves all of the problems Gisa & Geralf have by filtering instead of milling, gaining life so it can be readily used as a resource to draw cards, and adding white which opens up so many answers. I will really miss the toolbox capabilities of G&G and the reanimate ability, but the tradeoff feels like a no brainer at this point.

Overall my initial impression is extremely bullish on the switch and I have been playing Gisa & Geralf since the card was printed. Zombies are my favorite tribe and this is my pet deck so it took a long time to come around.

I'll post my list at some point. I prefer a competitive decklist as my group is fairly powerful, but I don't enjoy fast combos. Even if I have one in my deck I tend to never go to it unless a game is stalled out or my options to win are very poor otherwise.

Thanks!
This is my first post in this forum - I was a long time MTGSalvation user, had no idea this website existed after MTGS went under.

Welcome fellow zombie enthusiast, and welcome to Nexus! A lot of us had a presence over on salvation prior to the move, so it's always nice to see forum stalwarts find a new home.

I've run Gisa and Geralf myself, both in the command zone and 99, and I fully agree.. its a different build, and I've seen a few builds that do well enough. In my experience the siblings focus more on specific zombie interactions to win (read - mostly combo), where Varina doesn't really care about that. It does mean that with Varina there's a lot more flexibility in build options, which makes her a pretty wonderful commander in my opinion.

I've personally found that she doesn't necessarily need combo to win, although it doesn't hurt- I have one that I know of in my deck if I really need it. Predominantly its there just to end games that need to end or if I just don't have a way to win otherwise. Regardless, tempo and a lean curve have been key for me. If I can hit 2-3 zombies early, land the comnabder early and start sculpting an ideal hand early I'm usually pretty good; I can ease towards a win but I can also hold onto board state answers and protect my win too.

I guess in that respect the deck is always going to be a work in progress; the lower CMC zombies tend to be fairly underwhelming outside of the iconic stuff like Gravecrawler and Relentless Dead and such. Ultimately the higher CMC slots tend to logjam a little, and it can be a little tough to know which bombs to run at 5,6 and 7.

I look forward to seeing a list shortly, its always nice to compare notes!

Aside: Acererak the Archlich...I think there's probably no reason not to run it Rooftop Storm is in your list to combo with. Frabkly if I were running it I'd want as many combo lines with as possible. I don't think it'll ever be a dead card, but for the cost I'd want to make sure I get value for its cost. There's probably more efficient combos, but if there's a fkex spot hes worth a try. But yes, otherwise I agree with @pokken, the best combo lines here are going to involve a sac outlet, a bleeder and Gravecrawler. Or Geralf's Messenger; I don't run it myself but I'm sure there's some play between it, Mikaeus, the Unhallowed and Plague Belcher.

[plaganegra]

Thanks Toc!

This is my 4th draft of the deck after playing and messing around for a week:

Decklist

DecklistCMCManaPricesChartsDraw 7

Commander:

1 Varina, Lich Queen

Creatures (33)

1 Carrion Feeder

1 Cryptbreaker

1 Gravecrawler

1 Binding Mummy

1 Corpse Knight

1 Lazotep Chancellor

1 Relentless Dead

1 Shepherd of Rot

1 Undead Augur

1 Wayward Servant

1 Death Baron

1 Diregraf Captain

1 Diregraf Colossus

1 Lord of the Undead

1 Master of Death

1 Midnight Reaper

1 Plague Belcher

1 Prized Amalgam

1 Silversmote Ghoul

1 Zombie Master

1 Corpse Augur

1 Filth

1 Forgotten Creation

1 Graveborn Muse

1 Tormod, the Desecrator

1 Undead Warchief

1 Vengeful Dead

1 Wonder

1 Bone Miser

1 God-Eternal Oketra

1 Gray Merchant of Asphodel

1 The Scarab God

1 Mikaeus, the Unhallowed

Artifacts (9)

1 Sol Ring

1 Arcane Signet

1 Talisman of Dominance

1 Talisman of Hierarchy

1 Archaeomancer's Map

1 Ashnod's Altar

1 Herald's Horn

1 Alhammarret's Archive

1 Eldrazi Monument

Instants (9)

1 Pact of Negation

1 Swan Song

1 Swords to Plowshares

1 Cyclonic Rift

1 Despark

1 Mission Briefing

1 Shadow of the Grave

1 Anguished Unmaking

1 Rise of the Dread Marn

Sorcery (9)

1 Call to the Netherworld

1 Damn

1 Buried Alive

1 Cleansing Meditation

1 Toxic Deluge

1 Windfall

1 Living Death

1 Patriarch's Bidding

1 Zombie Apocalypse

Enchantments (5)

1 Land Tax

1 Reconnaissance

1 Teferi's Ageless Insight

1 Tombstone Stairwell

1 Kindred Discovery

Lands (34)

1 Ancient Tomb

1 Bojuka Bog

1 Cavern of Souls

1 Command Tower

1 Crypt of Agadeem

1 Dimir Aqueduct

1 Fabled Passage

1 Flooded Strand

1 Godless Shrine

2 Island

1 Marsh Flats

1 Morphic Pool

1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx

1 Orzhov Basilica

1 Phyrexian Tower

2 Plains

1 Polluted Delta

1 Prismatic Vista

1 Reliquary Tower

1 Scrubland

4 Swamp

1 Tundra

1 Unclaimed Territory

1 Underground Sea

1 Unholy Grotto

1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

1 Vault of Champions

1 Vault of the Archangel

1 Watery Grave

Approximate Total Cost:

I skewed the list towards recursion and card advantage as best as I could. I don't mind if the zombies aren't huge with buffs so long as they can come back one way or another which is why I downplay the use of lords.

I think I might have too many board wipes. Each time I played with the deck so far I found myself pitching them as I cycled through my deck as I usually had the best board state with creatures. I might swap one for a dedicated artifact/enchantment wiper.

I am struggling with how much and what for of evasion to include. Wonder is a no-brainer, and I love Filth as a backup. Is reconnaissance good? What experiences can people share about the balance of evasion and buffs in the deck.

I would love any feedback on the deck. Again I am a loooong time Gisa and Geralf champion who recently converted to Varina! Thanks

edit - I already made a few tweaks to lower and even out the curve after reading more of the thread.