Zedruu the Greatest of All Time

[tstorm823]

Just using it on the explosive turns really. Luck is heavily involved obviously

That sounds like this deck.

[tstorm823]

I don't think I've done much, if any, ranting about Sol Ring in this thread since the website jump, but it came up in my thoughts. I do not play Sol Ring because I think this format is more fun without it, but before I reached that conclusion and enacted the change in my own decks, I did have Sol Ring in my Zedruu deck. When I cut Sol Ring, I reached another interesting conclusion: the card is so powerful, it feels like it takes two cards to replace it. If you replace Sol Ring with a land, you can tell the deck is short ramp. If you replace Sol Ring with another mana rock, you feel like you're short on lands. Cutting Sol Ring justifies adding both another piece of ramp and another land and finding a cut somewhere else.

Time Spiral feels a lot like that right now. It's a big explosive draw spell, but also a mana ritual most of the times I play it, and I feel like it's gonna take two changes to even approach replacing the power of this card. I tried Echo of Eons, and I really liked it with both Mirror of Fate and Mind Over Matter, but it doesn't kick-start a mega turn on its own like Time Spiral. I tried out Coveted Jewel, and I really like that one two, but even with Displacer Kitten down, fizzling out is actually like a 50% chance, and then someone takes the Jewel. It's a lot fairer in reality than it was in my mind. Neither let me play out the cards I'm drawing.

The only single card I've ever tried out in this deck that even approximates what Time Spiral does, drawing a pile of cards and letting you cast them, is Aminatou's Augury. But what I like about Echo and Jewel is that they are technical cards with piles of subtle interactions. Echo can discard to Firestorm or Jeskai Ascendancy or even hand size, and loop with Mirror of Fate. Jewel flickers with Kitten or Venser or Venser, can be donated away to draw 3 cards again, or protected from itself with stifle. Aminitou's Augury is not a precision tool, it is a blunt, heavy sledgehammer, and the only card interactions to mention with it is copying it and doing it over again.

[Sefir]

Time Spiral feels a lot like that right now. It's a big explosive draw spell, but also a mana ritual most of the times I play it, and I feel like it's gonna take two changes to even approach replacing the power of this card. I tried Echo of Eons, and I really liked it with both Mirror of Fate and Mind Over Matter, but it doesn't kick-start a mega turn on its own like Time Spiral. I tried out Coveted Jewel, and I really like that one two, but even with Displacer Kitten down, fizzling out is actually like a 50% chance, and then someone takes the Jewel. It's a lot fairer in reality than it was in my mind. Neither let me play out the cards I'm drawing.

The only single card I've ever tried out in this deck that even approximates what Time Spiral does, drawing a pile of cards and letting you cast them, is Aminatou's Augury. But what I like about Echo and Jewel is that they are technical cards with piles of subtle interactions. Echo can discard to Firestorm or Jeskai Ascendancy or even hand size, and loop with Mirror of Fate. Jewel flickers with Kitten or Venser or Venser, can be donated away to draw 3 cards again, or protected from itself with stifle. Aminitou's Augury is not a precision tool, it is a blunt, heavy sledgehammer, and the only card interactions to mention with it is copying it and doing it over again.

Jewel fizzling on its own has happened to me before. Jewel fizzling with Kitten on the table is something that I never encountered (and I do tend to have them both out pretty often), but I do have a lower mana curve and more mana rocks in my list (yes, including Sol Ring) so the chance of drawing a nonland card with cmc 3 or less is higher.
I have played with Aminatou's Augury before in my list. It was a very, very powerful spell that I took out exactly because it was that powerful. It felt like a Mind's Desire without the need for storm. I agree that both Echo and Jewel are more fun and synergistic options.

What about Emergency Powers? Can be played at instant speed, can put something big from our hand in play if played as a sorcery. Exiles itself but we can't have it all. Never played with the card but it has potential.

[tstorm823]

Jewel fizzling on its own has happened to me before. Jewel fizzling with Kitten on the table is something that I never encountered (and I do tend to have them both out pretty often), but I do have a lower mana curve and more mana rocks in my list (yes, including Sol Ring) so the chance of drawing a nonland card with cmc 3 or less is higher.
I have played with Aminatou's Augury before in my list. It was a very, very powerful spell that I took out exactly because it was that powerful. It felt like a Mind's Desire without the need for storm. I agree that both Echo and Jewel are more fun and synergistic options.

What about Emergency Powers? Can be played at instant speed, can put something big from our hand in play if played as a sorcery. Exiles itself but we can't have it all. Never played with the card but it has potential.

I have 27 non-creature spells at 3 cmc or less, but Narset's Reversal and Stifle require a target, and 5 others are multicolored, leaving 20 hits that Jewel can pay for alone, which hypergeometrically has my chances of chaining go down reasonably fast each iteration. If I had 30 hits instead, it would be much closer to definite chain. In my limited testing, if I have Leave // Chance in hand with Kitten and Jewel, the game ends with near absolute certainty. Without that, I've fizzled 2 to 3 triggers in as often as not.

To be honest, if it wasn't for the option of Mirrorweave on Coveted Jewel with March of the Machines to steal all creatures and artifacts, I probably would have moved on to testing other things already. I fully intend to do that at least once. I've tried Emergency Powers, and not really liked it. 7 mana is a lot for instant speed Time Twister. Tapping out on my turn and getting to put down something like Eye of the Storm is a terrible idea even if I don't whiff. If it let me instant speed sneak things in, I'd probably jam it, but as is it isn't the card. I'll probably aim for something like Echo plus find space to bring back Unbender Tine to use both parts of Magosi, the Waterveil at once or untap my big mana lands with Displacer Kitten. Also, I have a beautiful foil Unbender Tine that I love looking at as much as I dislike looking at the big baby head on Aminatou's Augury.

But all of that puts me back around to "I have to find one more cut and I'll be good to go."

[tstorm823]

In my testing of various things, I am playing with Angel's Grace to go with Chance for Glory. I figured a second card to not die to Chance for Glory would let me take that extra turn more aggressively, and it's a redundant piece in Arcbond combos if I don't have Jeskai Charm to give lifelink, but before either of those happened, I ran into a funny use case I wasn't planning for.

I started my big turn with Relic of Legends, Zedruu the Greathearted, and Venser, Shaper Savant in play. I cast Jeskai Ascendancy into Pentad Prism as ramp into Possibility Storm. I cast Shatterskull Smashing for 0 just planning to net mana with my 2 Ascendancy triggers, but flipped into Replication Technique, and promptly copied both Ascendancy and Possibility Storm, so that all my noncreature spells would be 2 spells out and 6 Ascendancy triggers total. I played a bunch of spells, and made so much mana we stopped counting, and then 8 spells from hand later I P-Stormed out Vanish into Memory. I had been aggressively looting, so I counted 48 cards left in library, and I was casting all non-creatures, so I only had my 2 legends in play yet, which we counted to the best of our ability to both have 54 power. I lamented, "I guess I should target one of your creatures so I don't die", to which my opponent kindly responded "you won't, you cast Angel's Grace this turn." Which I had, it was one of my random spells out of Possibility Storm. So I drew my 48 cards, played Detention Sphere into the deck with one Possibility storm and pulled it out with the other, clearing both Possibility Storms so I could go infinite with Pandemonium, Sakashima the Impostor, and Opalescence (not in that order).

I can equally imagine myself taking advantage of Chance for Glory with Sea Gate Restoration, as copying that spell a couple times can lead to overdraw pretty fast.

[Sefir]

In my testing of various things, I am playing with Angel's Grace to go with Chance for Glory......
I can equally imagine myself taking advantage of Chance for Glory with Sea Gate Restoration, as copying that spell a couple times can lead to overdraw pretty fast.

Angel's Grace is one of the cards that are really love. It is one of the cards that constntly gets the in and out treatment in my lists but I have a soft spot for it and is really my 101 card right now. Not dying from overdrawing was one of the first things I learned wiht it, both with milling everyone with Turnabout infinite+Mikokoro, Center of the Sea and, most recently, comboing with Displacer Kitten+Coveted Jewel infinites that in my list have infinite draw combos but not infinite mana (I don't run Gilded Lotus). In time, Angel's Grace had its own infinite with Exalted Flamer of Tzeentch, a clone and Chance for Glory. Provides Split Second for the Eye of the Storm triggers too. Finally it works, not only with Chance for Glory, but also the other extra turn spell I recently came to favor, Alchemist's Gambit.

But it is also one of the spells that I love in general. Extremely useful on its own, reactive, protects me, low cmc and is really unexpected. One of my best moments with it was when my Sheoldred, the Apocalypse opponent thought they killed everyone with their Sanguine Bond+Exquisite Blood combo only for me to respond with Angel's Grace, thus letting them kill the entire table but me and them getting milled through the loop since they had their commander+something else that let them draw cards when they drained life (can't remember rn) in play and they could not stop hitting me with their combo.
The card is highly reccommended.

EDIT: Last night I had my first win with the Wormfang Manta+Mirage Mirror+Lore Drakkis+Leave // Chance combo. It was glorious.

[tstorm823]

Angel's Grace is one of the cards that are really love.

I knew it was at least fine, I've tried it in this deck before, though I don't think it ever made the first post on either site. One of the many cards I've casually entertained over the years. I only gave Stifle the nod over it because I wanted something that could theoretically combo with Rootha, Mercurial Artist. And I'm glad that I did, Stifle is an insanely powerful card in this format dominated by creatures with triggers, it often feels like 1-mana Counterspell, on top of the several proactive uses I've got for it. I've currently got Stifle, Thespian's Stage, Unbender Tine, Catch // Release, and 4 multi-faced cards with lands on the back that I can recur, bounce lands have never felt stronger for me than right now.

At any rate, Angel's Grace also feels fantastic so far, way outperforming expectations. I intend to keep both, and have a full Jeskai trio of 1-mana emergency buttons: Firestorm in red, Stifle in blue, and Angel's Grace in white.

EDIT: Last night I had my first win with the Wormfang Manta+Mirage Mirror+Lore Drakkis+Leave // Chance combo. It was glorious.

When you put it that way, you can also use Saheeli, Sublime Artificer in the Mirage Mirror slot, and suddenly the only part I'm missing is the Manta. Which also synergizes with Stifle, Chance for Glory, and Mirrorweave... I should probably stop thinking about it before I do something dumb.

[ihatemaryfisher]

When I originally put in angel's grace, it was with a package of "lose the game" cards (Chance for Glory, Glorious End, Sudden Substitution, etc). But I never anticipated just how many combos it enables.

It also does something very powerful, and unique: it allows comboing through punishment effects. My biggest weakness tends to be group slug decks, because they're difficult to manipulate—they dish out damage indiscriminately. Usually it takes several cards (from multiple players) to remove their punishment pieces. But Angel's Grace is a single card that lets us act with impunity to win: it alone can let us combo through Sheoldred, the Apocalypse, Manabarbs, and Painful Quandary. In this way, Angel's Grace does the job of several removal cards.

P.S.: I had my first win while my opponent was Teferi's Protection-ed. They got spooked and cast it in response to my second Mirror of Fate trigger—which was a fatal error because I then searched for the Mikokoro, Center of the Sea combo and drew everybody out

[tstorm823]

It also does something very powerful, and unique: it allows comboing through punishment effects. My biggest weakness tends to be group slug decks, because they're difficult to manipulate to my advantage—they dish out damage indiscriminately. Usually it takes several cards (from multiple players) to remove their punishment pieces. But Angel's Grace is a single card that lets us act with impunity to win: it alone can let us combo through Sheoldred, the Apocalypse, Manabarbs, and Painful Quandary. In this way, Angel's Grace does the job of several removal cards.

I'm working on an update to the front. I'll be stealing some of this analysis.

For the record:

Greatest of All Time: Current Draft

DecklistCMCManaPricesChartsDraw 7

Commander

1 Zedruu the Greathearted

Lands (33)

1 Azorius Chancery

1 Izzet Boilerworks

1 Boros Garrison

1 Cascade Bluffs

1 Mystic Gate

1 Rugged Prairie

1 Skycloud Expanse

1 Deserted Beach

1 Stormcarved Coast

1 Temple of Enlightenment

1 Temple of Epiphany

1 Celestial Colonnade

1 Wandering Fumarole

1 Mystic Monastery

1 Raugrin Triome

1 Command Tower

1 Forbidden Orchard

1 Forsaken City

1 Path of Ancestry

1 Magosi, the Waterveil

1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge

1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea

1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx

1 The Mycosynth Gardens

1 Thespian's Stage

4 Island

2 Mountain

2 Plains

Creatures (16)

1 Kami of the Crescent Moon

1 Lore Drakkis

1 Rootha, Mercurial Artist

1 Vedalken Plotter

1 Walking Archive

1 Crystalline Crawler

1 Displacer Kitten

1 Golden Guardian

1 Sakashima the Impostor

1 Swans of Bryn Argoll

1 Venser, Shaper Savant

1 Cavalier of Dawn

1 Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper

1 Precursor Golem

1 Inferno Titan

1 Sphinx of the Second Sun

Artifacts (15)

1 Chrome Mox

1 Arcane Signet

1 Azorius Signet

1 Azor's Gateway

1 Howling Mine

1 Izzet Signet

1 Pentad Prism

1 Cursed Mirror

1 Relic of Legends

1 Font of Mythos

1 Vedalken Orrery

1 Unbender Tine

1 Gilded Lotus

1 Mirror of Fate

1 Knowledge Pool

Enchantments (12)

1 Rest in Peace

1 Detention Sphere

1 Dictate of Kruphix

1 Jeskai Ascendancy

1 Leyline of Anticipation

1 March of the Machines

1 Opalescence

1 Pandemonium

1 Possibility Storm

1 Barren Glory

1 Mind Over Matter

1 Eye of the Storm

Instants (12)

1 Angel's Grace

1 Firestorm

1 Stifle

1 Electrodominance

1 Leave // Chance

1 Narset's Reversal

1 Arcbond

1 Chance for Glory

1 Jeskai Charm

1 Mirrorweave

1 Turnabout

1 Vanish Into Memory

Sorceries (9)

1 Shatterskull Smashing

1 Catch // Release

1 Bonus Round

1 Role Reversal

1 Replication Technique

1 Echo of Eons

1 Mind's Desire

1 Sea Gate Restoration

1 Temporal Cascade

Planeswalkers (2)

1 Saheeli, Sublime Artificer

1 Venser, the Sojourner

Approximate Total Cost:

This is the list I am currently remodeling the front post around (in a text file on my computer, you won't see updates until it's all done). I have completed the blue-ening of my mana base by swapping Boros Signet into Arcane Signet. I'm not about to transition away from the old signets entirely, they are way too valuable when trying to make 3 colors of mana on turns 3 and 4, but the more simple "tap: make a mana" effect better supports my 1 drop spell collection and is more manageable if its the only mana rock in sight for Displacer Kitten to flicker. I'm technically down a white source from cutting Emeria's Call // Emeria, Shattered Skyclave, but otherwise I've reformulated my mana base to have the same amount of red and white while supporting a lot more blue mana.

I'm bringing back Catch // Release as my favorite instant or sorcery that untaps a permanent. Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper + Jeskai Ascendancy sometimes needs a kick in the pants to start the combo turn, and even a single untap can be enough, especially if I have a bounce land and am immediately mana positive. That was the inspiration to play it, but it also steals other people's lands to bounce instead of mine, does incredibly mean things fused with Bonus Round or Rootha, Mercurial Artist (Rootha even protects herself), generates mana with enough devotion to Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx or a flipped Azor's Gateway // Sanctum of the Sun,sacrifices Golden Guardian // Gold-Forge Garrison, is technically 9 cmc for Azor's Gateway, is all 3 colors for Chrome Mox, can cast as Release out of Eye of the Storm or Knowledge Pool while only paying for Catch, can clear away all permanents for Barren Glory if I've got infinite spells going (which is actually somewhat practical if my mana engine is Jeskai Ascendancy, which can loot away all the lands while I play every spell to get empty handed), and last but not least can move a card from opponent to opponent permanently with Zedruu, which is a good example of control shenanigans to write about in the primer.

Imma be a big nerd here. The is probably the cleanest this list has ever looked. The card type distribution is satisfying: if you count Zedruu, it's exactly half creatures and lands/half non-creature spells, which is somewhat relevant to triggers but mostly just satisfying numbers to me. 21 instants and sorceries is also a pretty round number in a game with a 7 card hand size. If you count just the 99, precisely 1/3rd of the cards are lands on the front side, and precisely 1/3rd of those are tapped lands. I'm back to 2 planeswalkers, giving me my deterministic play for Possibility Storm. And I've exceeded most of the suggested numbers for certain effects from my own primer. The mana curve is smooth. If you look at the handy-dandy mana curve chart from the decklist widget, and then mentally move Leave // Chance from the 6 column to the 2 column and move Catch // Release from the 9 column to the 3 column, it makes quite the smooth bell curve. It's nice having some 1-drop spells, especially with the perfect color symmetry. I've got the same breakdown with big creatures, a 5, 6, and 7 drop clone target in white, red, and blue respectively. In goldfishing the deck, I've hit a big turn between turns 7 and 10 nearly every time, with exceedingly rare games of turn 6 wins or 10+ turns of doing nothing, which is exactly where I want to be. In actual games, it goes longer, but I've also got more interactive elements than I think I've ever had. And by the time I'm done writing the infinite combo section over, the only cards not mentioned in the context of 4-5 card combos should be Pentad Prism, Vedalken Plotter, and Role Reversal, the 3 cards dedicated specifically to drawing with Zedruu.

All of which is to say, I think I've formulated the best version that I can of this deck specifically to write a primer on.

[IAMAfortunecookieAMA]

I had to cut Replication Technique from my list specifically because of copying Possibility Storm.... too stressful lol

This list is looking amazing. Definitely making some changes to my personal list to match. You talked me into bounce lands...

[Sefir]

Last night I saw an opponent of mine using their The Mycosynth Gardens to copy their Phyrexian Dreadnought with the etb trigger on the stack and I got extremely jealous. Since I own a PD I am trying to think if it is possible to shove one in my list with any minor tweeks to get a combo. No results thus far apart from the cutsie synergies with Stifle, Mirrorweave, Saheeli, Sublime Artificer, etc. I will think about it more.

All of which is to say, I think I've formulated the best version that I can of this deck specifically to write a primer on.

Call me whatever you like, but having the 2CMC cost Arcane Signet on top of the 0CMC Chrome Mox in your list is making me unconfortable. Can we fix this? I like the list a lot though, it seems very fun list to play with!!

So, no second extra time spell apart from Chance for Glory? Thinking about going that route as well, expecially now that the Eye of the Storm is out of my list....
Surprised there is no Paradox Haze (or Alhammarret's Archive as option no2) though you wanted to increase Zedruu's draw power. Also no Plaza of Heroes?

EDIT: Goodbye Mindmoil.....

[tstorm823]

Call me whatever you like,

Ok, Urinator.

but having the 2CMC cost Arcane Signet on top of the 0CMC Chrome Mox in your list is making me unconfortable. Can we fix this? I like the list a lot though, it seems very fun list to play with!!

Fixed!

So, no second extra time spell apart from Chance for Glory? Thinking about going that route as well, expecially now that the Eye of the Storm is out of my list....

Chance for Glory won me over that hard, honestly. I cut Savor the Moment to add Angel's Grace, and regret nothing.

Also surprised there is no Paradox Haze (or Alhammarret's Archive as option no2) though you wanted to increase Zedruu's draw power. Also no Plaza of Heroes?

I haven't even really given much thought to revisiting draw doublers, to be honest. I have no idea if they're safe or not. I'd probably lean toward Thought Reflection so I can call Thought Reflection + Opalescence + Mirrorweave + Angel's Grace + Temporal Cascade a win condition. I'll always have a soft spot for Paradox Haze, but there just isn't space for it if all it helps is Zedruu and Walking Archive. And I've got Sphinx of the Second Sun giving me bonus upkeeps anyway.

Plaza of Heroes is in contention for one of the last maybe changes. Forsaken City could just as well be Plaza or Gemstone Caverns, I don't know exactly where I land on that. I've played with it in a few games, and never once used the last ability, and on the occasion where I start the game with multiple Howling Mine effects and don't need Zedruu, it's almost just a Waste. But even if it was like a 25% to 75% split, 75% of a second command tower is still pretty good. The decider at the moment is that I'm mean-spirited and enjoy donating a tapped Forsaken City, lol.

EDIT: Goodbye Mindmoil.....

To be fair, I moved this card to a new home that needed it more. Also, there used to be like 2 combos here that made infinite storm, and now there are like 12, and some involve returning multiple cards to hand. My shiny Mindmoil now lives in a deck where I don't play it and immediately start thinking of ways to kill it, lol. (Also, it's in a Jund deck, where I consider it the de facto 3rd member of Recycle and Null Profusion.)

And like, this feels like the time to cut sacred cows. Temporal Mastery and Time Spiral are both cut for power level reasons. Chaos Warp just didn't have as much synergy as the other interaction in the deck. I stopped playing Nahiri, the Harbinger. I talked myself out of clean sets of 3 land cycles. Everything is chaos! And I still have absolutely no idea what I could possibly cut if I did want to play Thought Reflection again.

[IAMAfortunecookieAMA]

Almost won again with Mycosyth Gardens and Mirror of Fate. My white whale!

After my Thassa's Oracle got countered, I was again extremely close to winning with Magosi the Waterveil by skipping my own turn (and draw step) to let an opponent's Descent to Avernus trigger kill them, but they drew Temple Bell and got me with my 0-card library. Oh well....

[Sefir]

Last night, I had a great game against a Chishiro, the Shattered Blade, a Saskia the Unyielding human tribal and a Lord Windgrace lands. Windgrace started with massive ramp as always, having about 7 mana on turn 3, thus being the target from both aggro decks on the table. His Glacial Chasm did not made things better, but I managed to I deal with it when it was destroyed by a random Beast Within and I dealt with their gy so it did not get reanimated. I was a bit stuck on 2 lands, but I managed to play a t4 Lion's Eye Diamond to discard my hand, followed by an Echo of Eons flashback (that everyone enjoyed btw, even the Windgrace player who got their Chasm shuffled) and, not only drew a land, but also managed to draw the only searching effect in my list, my Land Tax so that problem was solved forever. The Saskia player was the first to die by the Windgrace who managed to produce a BIG number of zombies through......3 Field of the Deads (Thespian's Stage, Vesuva, etc)+ a Cavalier of Flame. At that point my Chishiro opponent was literally putting 8 counters per spell played in his Forgotten Ancient through various doubling effects and he had an army of REALLY buffed stuff that could kill us all (Chishiro was a 1-shot kill himself with commander dmg and two equipped swords). He sent his commander to the Windgrace and the rest of the army to me so the Windgrace player died but I was able to Angel's Grace myself. And then, at the end of that turn, I stormed off, playing four-five 0-2CMC spells, putting the total number of counters to the Ancient at 100+, and stole him with an Electrodominanced Gilded Drake. At the beginning of my upkeep I drew my cards THEN moved all the counters to my Walking Archive and then passed the turn.

EDIT: I really liked Bucknard's Everfull Purse, despite the fact that I have yet to roll something different than a 2. It works both as a gift and ramp engine, similar to Pentad Prism

[Eponymous]

In regards to the previous conversation of adding Tawnos, Urza's Apprentice, and Liquimetal Torque, Torque doesn't work for it, but Liquimetal Coating gives infinite turns with Magosi, the Waterveil, Tawnos, and Unbender Tine

Start with Magosi on the Field, untapped.
Turn it into an Artifact with Liquimetal Coating
Tap it and skip your next turn for an Eon Counter
Untap Magosi with Unbender Tine
Tap Magosi for the extra turn, copying the ability with Tawnos for a net 1 turn
Re play magosi as your land for turn

[tstorm823]

In regards to the previous conversation of adding Tawnos, Urza's Apprentice, and Liquimetal Torque, Torque doesn't work for it, but Liquimetal Coating gives infinite turns with Magosi, the Waterveil, Tawnos, and Unbender Tine

Start with Magosi on the Field, untapped.
Turn it into an Artifact with Liquimetal Coating
Tap it and skip your next turn for an Eon Counter
Untap Magosi with Unbender Tine
Tap Magosi for the extra turn, copying the ability with Tawnos for a net 1 turn
Re play magosi as your land for turn

That certainly works if you want to go for that. The downsides here are both the floor and the ceiling on Liquimetal Coating, where the floor is doing less than nothing (not even necessarily safe to give away) and the ceiling is repeatable stone rain. Liquimetal Torque has a much higher floor as a mana rock and gracefully dodges the land killing possibility.

On the topic of making anything an artifact, or consequently making anything a creature, there are battles now as a card type that would require that sort of 2-step creature conversion that might make the Liquimetal twins interesting prospects. I don't know if I want to turn Invasion of Segovia into an artifact, to Saheeli, Sublime Artificer it into a Golden Guardian, to flip it on the fight (if there isn't a rule against doing so), but I do kind of want to play Invasion of Segovia anyway, so no harm thinking about it.

Edit: Lol, nevermind on Invasion. In my mind, giving all my non-creatures convoke was basically making my creatures all mana dorks. In practice, there's a big difference, because actual mana dorks can go mana positive on inexpensive spells. Jeskai Ascendancy with two creatures that actually tap for mana can ramp up to big things through cheap spells. Even if I'm otherwise tapped out, a board with Ascendency, 2 legends, and Relic of Legends (or two mana rocks and March of the Machines, or two activated man-lands) can have turns like "signet, signet, Leave, signet, signet, Mind's Desire. A board with flipped Invasion of Segovia instead would need to get from 2 creatures to 6 with non-creature spells exclusively, which could work with Saheeli, Sublime Artificer, but otherwise is highly unlikely.

[tstorm823]

Group question: how many 4 card combos can we find in this deck with Cadric, Soul Kindler? For the purposes of this, assume nothing specific is cut to include him.

I've got a few that I've found. The first is that Rootha, Mercurial Artist + Vedalken Orrery + Turnabout can use him as the 4th piece to make infinite hasty Roothas. This could obviously also be done with Leyline of Anticipation in place of Orrery, but even also with Electrodominance, as Rootha can copy Electrodominance and the copy can recast Rootha, then Cadric makes a second Rootha to copy Turnabout each iteration. You don't get infinite hasty Rootha's, but you do get infinite direct burn from the electrodominance copies, so that's just as good.

Second I have is built around Cadric, Soul Kindler + Venser, Shaper Savant, as the former lets you pay 1 extra mana on Venser to bounce himself back to your hand after bouncing something else. Bonus Round + Turnabout + Venser, Shaper Savant + Cadric, Soul Kindler let's you cast Turnabout, double from Bonus Round, Venser to return the original Turnabout to hand, and then Cadric copies Venser to bounce Venser. It requires lands tapping for minimum 9 mana, but you get infinite hasty Venser and possibly infinite mana. This can also be done with Eye of the Storm instead of Bonus Round if you have another instant or sorcery to trigger it, or with Rootha/Lore Drakkis, but requires more mana to loop. The Venser loop can also run without Turnabout, as it can be used to repeatedly bounce and cast Unbender Tine, which can untap either Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx or flipped Azor's Gateway // Sanctum of the Sun to generate enough mana to recast both Tine and Venser.

The other connections I haven't found loops for yet are Saheeli, Sublime Artificer, Sakashima the Impostor, Displacer Kitten, and Relic of Legends. Kitten could repeatedly trigger Cadric, Relic can let the legends pay for their own copies, and Sakashima/Saheeli can make copies of Cadric himself. I want to believe somewhere in that mess there is a deterministic loop to be found, but I haven't put it together yet.

[Sefir]

Group question: how many 4 card combos can we find in this deck with Cadric, Soul Kindler? For the purposes of this, assume nothing specific is cut to include him.

I've got a few that I've found. The first is that Rootha, Mercurial Artist + Vedalken Orrery + Turnabout can use him as the 4th piece to make infinite hasty Roothas. This could obviously also be done with Leyline of Anticipation in place of Orrery, but even also with Electrodominance, as Rootha can copy Electrodominance and the copy can recast Rootha, then Cadric makes a second Rootha to copy Turnabout each iteration. You don't get infinite hasty Rootha's, but you do get infinite direct burn from the electrodominance copies, so that's just as good.

The first one I immediately thought was the infinite Roothas as well, that was the easy one.
The second one I thought was one unique to my list. I can turn Saheeli Rai into an artifact with Liquimetal Torque, use her -2 to create a copy of herself. With Cadric, Soul Kindler I can have as many Sahheli Rai I want, since there is no legendary rule. That copy will -2 targeting the original artifact Saheeli again and so on, I will have infinite used Saheeli Rai tokens on the battlefield. That are also artifacts since the -2 of Saheeli Rai turns them all into artifacts. With haste. Either March of the Machines or my personal preference, Rise and Shine will be enough to turn them all into creature artifact planeswalkers and attack for the win. I already have a somewhat similar variation that uses Lore Drakkis instead of Cadric, to mutate my artifact creature Saheeli and then copy her infinitely having Lore Drakkis on the front.

[tstorm823]

I can have as many Sahheli Rai I want, since there is no legendary rule.

I think this is what I underestimated about Cadric most when it was originally spoiled. I already have two token copy makers before even using his trigger. Being able to just Replication Technique and keep 3 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx is nothing to scoff at.

[Eponymous]

.The other connections I haven't found loops for yet are Saheeli, Sublime Artificer, Sakashima the Impostor, Displacer Kitten, and Relic of Legends. Kitten could repeatedly trigger Cadric, Relic can let the legends pay for their own copies, and Sakashima/Saheeli can make copies of Cadric himself. I want to believe somewhere in that mess there is a deterministic loop to be found, but I haven't put it together yet.

Sakashima can also turn nonlegendary creatures into legendary creatures that can be double with Cadric, I can't find a 4 card combo with it though

[tstorm823]

Sakashima can also turn nonlegendary creatures into legendary creatures that can be double with Cadric, I can't find a 4 card combo with it though

The closest I got this way from the current list is with Opalescence and Detention Sphere doing the Sakashima the Impostor dance, but it would take Cadric, Soul Kindler and something like Relic of Legends to go actually infinite. That being said, dropping a hasty Inferno Titan clone for 1 extra mana is probably worth being happy about.

[Sefir]

Here is something interesting:

https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/featu ... ease-notes

I quote: "Previously, only transforming double-faced cards could transform. Since Incubator tokens aren't cards, the rules are broadening slightly to allow "transforming double-faced permanents" to transform, which includes Incubator tokens. Similarly, tokens that are created as copies of transforming double-faced permanents will themselves be transforming double-faced permanents. This way, a token that is created as a copy of an Incubator token functions the same way as the original token. It will enter the battlefield with the same face up as the permanent it is a copy of. Watch out, though. For Incubator tokens, this won't include any +1/+1 counters, so this may result in the creature immediately dying!
This change will also apply to tokens that are created as copies of other transforming double-faced permanents or as copies of transforming double-faced cards in zones other than the battlefield. For example, if you control a Flame Channeler and an effect creates a token that's a copy of it, the resulting permanent is a transforming double-faced token that is a copy of Flame Channeler. It enters the battlefield with its front face up, and it can transform. If it does, it will become an Embodiment of Flame, the back face of Flame Channeler. Similarly, if you controlled an Embodiment of Flame and created a token that is a copy of it, the token would be the same transforming double-faced token, but it would enter with its back face up.
The rules for a permanent that's already on the battlefield becoming a copy of another permanent haven't changed, regardless of whether either one is a transforming permanent. Notably, a permanent that isn't a transforming permanent can't become one due to a copy effect, and it can't ever transform even if an effect instructs a player to transform it."

Things like Azor's Gateway // Sanctum of the Sun+Replication Technique+Mind Over Matter+Alhammarret's Archive are gone.

[tstorm823]

Here is something interesting:

https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/featu ... ease-notes

Things like Azor's Gateway // Sanctum of the Sun+Replication Technique+Mind Over Matter+Alhammarret's Archive are gone.

That is interesting, though I'm inclined to take it as an overall positive. It's definitely more intuitive a rule than "imaginary cards can't transform, we can't even imagine that." And if I do try to include Cadric, Soul Kindler, maybe someday I'll Replication Technique the front side of Azor's Gateway // Sanctum of the Sun with the intention of flipping all 3.

[Sefir]

Does that mean that, Azor's Gateway // Sanctum of the Sun+Golden Guardian // Gold-Forge Garrison+ Saheeli, Sublime Artificer will not resolve into a flipped Sanctum of the Sun.? Or, more accurately, will it resolve into a flipped Sanctum of the Sun that until eot will be a Gold-Forge Garrison instead?

[tstorm823]

Does that mean that, Azor's Gateway // Sanctum of the Sun+Golden Guardian // Gold-Forge Garrison+ Saheeli, Sublime Artificer will not resolve into a flipped Sanctum of the Sun.? Or, more accurately, will it resolve into a flipped Sanctum of the Sun that until eot will be a Gold-Forge Garrison instead?

That will still work the same. The flip condition on Golden Guardian // Gold-Forge Garrison involves leaving and returning to the battlefield, so when it returns it is a new object and remembers nothing of what Saheeli, Sublime Artificer did.