Zedruu the Greatest of All Time

[Dragonlover]

So I recently learned the card Exchange of Words exists, and I have no idea what your stance on legal Unset cards is, but it felt like the kind of deranged nonsense you'd enjoy, so I figured I'd bring it up. Fun with Lore Drakkis as well, cause you can swap it's text box, bounce it back to your hand and then re-mutate it onto the thing you copied it's text box onto.

Dragonlover

[tstorm823]

So I recently learned the card Exchange of Words exists, and I have no idea what your stance on legal Unset cards is, but it felt like the kind of deranged nonsense you'd enjoy, so I figured I'd bring it up. Fun with Lore Drakkis as well, cause you can swap it's text box, bounce it back to your hand and then re-mutate it onto the thing you copied it's text box onto.

Dragonlover

I have no problem with legal unset cards, but I don't see myself playing that one. If it could do any permanent type, I could probably do something novel, but cloning or killing creatures is so simple, it would take a lot of hoops to reach an end that justifies it.

Unrelated, am I a bad person if I'm thinking about cutting Mind's Desire?

[Sefir]

Unrelated, am I a bad person if I'm thinking about cutting Mind's Desire?

How dare you? Mind's Desire is one of the best "finishers" in the deck! Especially now that you have many infinite storm variants with either Rootha, the Kitten or even good old Eye. Not to mention that the surprising "Aha!" Mind's Desire with a flash enabler (now that you also added more) when your opponents used 4-5 spells in their turns, is very satisfying.
(tbh there are many, many times where I won with just a Mind's Desire into an Eye of the Storm).
I also own a gorgeous foil one from Scourge so take my opinion with a pint of salt.

Lore Drakkis makes Rest in Peace awkward.

I run Lore Drakkis, Mystic Retrieval and Echo of Eons. I still run Rest in Peace with no problems. You will be fine.

EDIT: I really like Savor the Moment, but unfortunately for my own list I really need a real Time Walk effect with no downsides for my own combo with Eye of the Storm, Pull from Tomorrow and Mystic Retrieval/Echo of Eons.

[tstorm823]

How dare you? Mind's Desire is one of the best "finishers" in the deck! Especially now that you have many infinite storm variants with either Rootha, the Kitten or even good old Eye. Not to mention that the surprising "Aha!" Mind's Desire with a flash enabler (now that you also added more) when your opponents used 4-5 spells in their turns, is very satisfying.
(tbh there are many, many times where I won with just a Mind's Desire into an Eye of the Storm).
I also own a gorgeous foil one from Scourge so take my opinion with a pint of salt.

I just need one cut that won't stop the deck from functioning, and most of the "options" are either cards I just added, or the best interaction in the deck. I'm a little stuck at the moment.

[Sefir]

I just need one cut that won't stop the deck from functioning, and most of the "options" are either cards I just added, or the best interaction in the deck. I'm a little stuck at the moment.

Infinite Reflection would be my choice from your list tbh. Too much mana for extremely specific interactions.

EDIT: I gave Tawnos, Urza's Apprentice a try. In just his first game he was phenomenal. He made Azor's Gateway // Sanctum of the Sun flip in 2 turns. He gave me more cards from Howling Mine when I needed them. He gave me extra beginning by copying Sphinx of the Second Sun with the help of Liquimetal Torque. I can tell he is here to stay.

[tstorm823]

I just need one cut that won't stop the deck from functioning, and most of the "options" are either cards I just added, or the best interaction in the deck. I'm a little stuck at the moment.

Infinite Reflection would be my choice from your list tbh. Too much mana for extremely specific interactions.

EDIT: I gave Tawnos, Urza's Apprentice a try. In just his first game he was phenomenal. He made Azor's Gateway // Sanctum of the Sun flip in 2 turns. He gave me more cards from Howling Mine when I needed them. He gave me extra beginning by copying Sphinx of the Second Sun with the help of Liquimetal Torque. I can tell he is here to stay.

A) but then I'll only have 1 Mirrorweave!
B) I had an medium time with Tawnos. It had plenty of targets, but it was tricky budgeting the mana, and it didn't work with zedruu the way I wanted it to, cause by the time I could make zedruu an artifact with torque, zedruu had already triggered. I flipped him out for Rootha, and Rootha was phenomenal for me.

[Sefir]

I had an medium time with Tawnos. It had plenty of targets, but it was tricky budgeting the mana, and it didn't work with zedruu the way I wanted it to, cause by the time I could make zedruu an artifact with torque, zedruu had already triggered. I flipped him out for Rootha, and Rootha was phenomenal for me.

Aaaand in his second game he went infinite with Walking Archive and MoM (facepalm). He is too good for his own good dammit.......

EDIT: Perhaps I will tinker a bit with Exalted Flamer of Tzeentch (an upgrade from Charmbreaker Devils). It allows for an infinite with Chance for Glory and either Magosi, the Waterveil+untapper or a clone+Stifle/Angel's Grace effect. Though between the demon, Lore Drakkis and Mystic Retrieval I am starting to have perhaps a bit too many instant/sorcery recursion effects despite all of them having distinctively different combos from one other

[tstorm823]

Aaaand in his second game he went infinite with Walking Archive and MoM (facepalm). He is too good for his own good dammit.......

I'm a little disappointed that I didn't catch that.

With the charmbreaker upgrade combo, you could also do it with Magosi and Thespians' Stage. Just keep alternating which is eating the dangerous extra turn and which is taking a real extra turn.

[Sefir]

With so much recursion added to my list, I am trying other gy removal cards than Rest in Peace. I stumbled upon an interesting interaction regarding Lion Sash. If my Saheeli, Sublime Artificer turns my Azor's Gateway // Sanctum of the Sun into a Lion Sash and I exile 5 cards of my opponents graveyards with different mana costs, does the Gateway transforms when I activate its ability after it becomes itself again? I guess this interaction is possible with any artifact/creature that can exile stuff, not necessarily the sash.

[tstorm823]

With so much recursion added to my list, I am trying other gy removal cards than Rest in Peace. I stumbled upon an interesting interaction regarding Lion Sash. If my Saheeli, Sublime Artificer turns my Azor's Gateway // Sanctum of the Sun into a Lion Sash and I exile 5 cards of my opponents graveyards with different mana costs, does the Gateway transforms when I activate its ability after it becomes itself again? I guess this interaction is possible with any artifact/creature that can exile stuff, not necessarily the sash.

It does not, unfortunately. There is a lot of implicit language in the rules for cards that reference things they've exiled. They don't write it on the cards for brevity, but any card that references things it exiled has an implied "by this ability or a connected ability printed on the original card text." I've tried this sort of thing with Myr Welder at times, and was disappointed.

[tstorm823]

I've been doing a bunch of goldfishing to familiarize myself with all the new interactions. A few of note:

Displacer Kitten + Saheeli, Sublime Artificer = Copy a creature or artifact every time you cast a noncreature spell. It won't get etbs or have haste, but there are still plenty of strong options to make a pile of.

Lore Drakkis makes Golden Guardian // Gold-Forge Garrison into a smaller creature, making it easier to kill. It takes 2 activations, but it can flip off Zedruu even.

Stifle on turn 2 to ramp off a bounceland is great, I should have tried this years ago.

And in the world of gratuitous overkill, I found a silly way to Barren Glory (while goldfishing, there were no opponents). I assembled Displacer Kitten + Venser, Shaper Savant + Chrome Mox + Mind's Desire to flip over my library. From there I, I put down Sphinx of the Second Sun, Venser, the Sojourner, a clone of Displacer Kitten, and Barren Glory. I moved to my second main phase, triggering Sphinx, then continued the loop but flickering planeswalker venser to +2 away my board one at a time (casting a couple instants from exile to clean up the the kittens before Venser vensered himself) leaving only Barren Glory. Then shuffle hand in with Temporal Cascade. Then move to the sphinx's beginning phase (which comes before the end phase) to win the game on upkeep. With my whole deck for free, could I have ended the game any way I wanted? Yes, but I like Barren Glory. Could I have just done Leave // Chance instead of an elaborate Venser dance? Yes, but doing it the hard way makes it so if my imaginary opponents had a Krosan Grip for Barren Glory in response to Temporal Cascade, I just move to my end step and my infinite combo falls back into play.

Edit: Also, instant speed Rootha is like the indestructible + hexproof of instants and sorceries. Rootha returning to hand as part of the cost leaves her primed to go again, it takes like 3 counters to actually stop an instant or sorcery with Rootha and a flash enabler in play.

[Sefir]

I believe this deck is one of the few decks that can play Lion's Eye Diamond without some kind of Underworld Breach or Auriok Salvagers combo. It is a great card with many uses! 0 CMC card that can play into Displacer Kitten+Venser, Shaper Savant? Along with Jeskai Ascendancy+Cavalier of Dawn+whatever Kiki effect? Or even Banishing Knack? With Barren Glory to discard our hand? With a Time Spiral on the stack? Extra free storm for Mind's Desire? As a gift from Zedruu (let's see if our opponents will indeed sacrifice it with the loss of their hands)? You name it! It can fit many spots and play many different roles and so far I like it a lot. I am well aware of its price ofc, but whoever owns one should definetely give it a try.

[tstorm823]

I believe this deck is one of the few decks that can play Lion's Eye Diamond without some kind of Underworld Breach or Auriok Salvagers combo. It is a great card with many uses! 0 CMC card that can play into Displacer Kitten+Venser, Shaper Savant? Along with Jeskai Ascendancy+Cavalier of Dawn+whatever Kiki effect? Or even Banishing Knack? With Barren Glory to discard our hand? With a Time Spiral on the stack? Extra free storm for Mind's Desire? As a gift from Zedruu (let's see if our opponents will indeed sacrifice it with the loss of their hands)? You name it! It can fit many spots and play many different roles and so far I like it a lot. I am well aware of its price ofc, but whoever owns one should definetely give it a try.

I like to say I have infinite money, not because I am a particularly wealthy person, but because I am well off enough to casually buy the things I want without having to worry about my budget, and if I can do that it hardly matters if I have $1 or $1,000,000 left over. It may as well be infinite money. The caveat being most of what I want it very cheap.

Just the thought of purchasing a Lion's Eye Diamond makes it so that I don't have infinite money.

[tstorm823]

I can guarantee Rootha's effectiveness in general (copying big spells like Sea-Gate Restoration or Time Spiral on the spot is very powerful)

Yes, I am quoting a 3 month old post, because it brings up two things I need to acknowledge.

1) Rootha, Mercurial Artist + Sea Gate Restoration // Sea Gate, Reborn is nuts. Rootha returning to hand before drawing double +1 twice means the minimum number of cards drawn is 6 even if Rootha is the only card in hand. A more normal hand, say 5 cards, would be draw 6, then draw 12, and have no maximum hand size. Just aces.

2) Rootha, Mercurial Artist + Time Spiral is also strong, but unfortunately, I've broken it. I apologize, Sefir, I've done something horrible, but I can't unknow what I know now... Rootha breaks Time Spiral. I mean, it was always broken, but I mean it's 3 card infinite. With Leyline of Anticipation or Vedalken Orrery, you can cast Time Spiral, copy it with Rootha, and then recast Rootha with both Time Spirals on the stack, let the copy resolve untapping 6 lands, then bounce and replay Rootha again for infinite mana and Timetwisters. Which is technically not deterministic, but is effectively deterministic and really annoying to resolve. With how much I've been enjoying the current build, this may actually be the death sentence for Time Spiral.

[Sefir]

2) Rootha, Mercurial Artist + Time Spiral is also strong, but unfortunately, I've broken it. I apologize, Sefir, I've done something horrible, but I can't unknow what I know now... Rootha breaks Time Spiral. I mean, it was always broken, but I mean it's 3 card infinite. With Leyline of Anticipation or Vedalken Orrery, you can cast Time Spiral, copy it with Rootha, and then recast Rootha with both Time Spirals on the stack, let the copy resolve untapping 6 lands, then bounce and replay Rootha again for infinite mana and Timetwisters. Which is technically not deterministic, but is effectively deterministic and really annoying to resolve. With how much I've been enjoying the current build, this may actually be the death sentence for Time Spiral.

This is awfull!!
Time Spiral is one of the cards that has literally given me games on its own just by casting it, changing the dynamic of a game. And also has its own combo in my list with Eye of the Storm, Pull from Eternity and Mystic Retrieval. I am not sure if I have to remove Time Spiral or Rootha herself. This decision might also get the Eye again out of my list. I need to think about it......

EDIT: Every disaster creates an opportunity. With the free space and my new changes, Wormfang Manta, a creature I have a soft spot for, comes back in and has its own infinites (Splinter Twin+Exalted Flamer of Tzeentch+Stifle/Chance for Glory or Mirage Mirror+Lore Drakkis+Leave // Chance).

[IAMAfortunecookieAMA]

I've been visiting this thread for years. Oh, how I love this deck. Let me count the ways...

1) Innovation
The combos in this deck and the associated 24 pages of amazing contributions from our fantastic OP and the uncountable Zedruu acolytes continue to push my personal understanding of what's possible in this game. The fact that we can all continue discovering new interactions years after the individual cards are produced hints at an infinite well of possibility. It's really something to behold when you sit back and think about it, and I would even go so far as to say it's a unique brewing space in the entire fabric of the game - has any other single deck pooled so much collective brainpower in search of niche interactions, ever? I doubt it.

2) Community
tstrom823 (if that is your *real* name) is the pinnacle of community leadership. Hours and hours of effort and passion poured into a primer that has enough education, instruction, and intrigue to unite a whole community around it. The popularity of this thread over the years is definitely a direct result to tstorm's engagement in the comment thread - helping, explaining, and never dismissing. Even oddball ideas that don't fit in the deck's ethos are considered and worked through, which is delightful. I wish all internet threads were as receptive and peaceful.

3) Fun over Function
There's something about the balance here of extremely tight, innovative deckbuilding against the tension of deliberate back-pedaling from optimization / cEDH that really appeals to me. Just because we're not shifting into optimized spaces doesn't mean we can't endlessly iterate and perfect the deck. It's an ethos, really - and one that has driven my own deckbuilding since I found this thread. And that brings me to my last point...

4) Lasting Influence
tstorm823, you're my hero. I have rethought my approach to the game through the lessons learned in this deck. Reframed my thinking about deckbuilding, and what my goals are in an EDH pod. I appreciate this thread from freeing me of the burden of focusing on the defeat of my opponents - now, my primary goal is to defeat myself, and endlessly one-up my understanding of the rules and the combo possibilities within my decks. This is such a satisfying personal approach to Magic. I am now the de-facto "judge" in a room full of 16 of my friends because I had to learn the game 2-3x better just to play these combos. I am a better Magic player for having found this thread.

Oh, how I love this deck. Let me count the ways... thank you tstorm823 for putting so much work into this, and thanks to everyone else for cultivating this community over the years. For every reply you get in the comments, there are probably 20 lurkers silently appreciating your work as well.

[tstorm823]

I've been visiting this thread for years. Oh, how I love this deck.

Thank you! Appreciation is always appreciated!

Has any other single deck pooled so much collective brainpower in search of niche interactions, ever? I doubt it.

Well, depending on what qualifies as a "deck", there's definitely at least one thread out there:
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/mag ... o-infinite

So if you haven't been down that rabbit hole, enjoy!

The popularity of this thread over the years is definitely a direct result to tstorm's engagement in the comment thread - helping, explaining, and never dismissing. Even oddball ideas that don't fit in the deck's ethos are considered and worked through, which is delightful. I wish all internet threads were as receptive and peaceful.

To be fair to all the lovely people offering ideas, it's the deck's ethos that's got the oddball ideas, and the things that really don't fit are usually way more reasonable than whatever I'm up to

tstorm823, you're my hero.

I have rethought my approach to the game through the lessons learned in this deck. Reframed my thinking about deckbuilding, and what my goals are in an EDH pod. I appreciate this thread from freeing me of the burden of focusing on the defeat of my opponents - now, my primary goal is to defeat myself, and endlessly one-up my understanding of the rules and the combo possibilities within my decks. This is such a satisfying personal approach to Magic. I am now the de-facto "judge" in a room full of 16 of my friends because I had to learn the game 2-3x better just to play these combos. I am a better Magic player for having found this thread.

Seriously though, if somehow this deck and this thread ever felt like a labor to me, a comment like this would make the whole thing worth it. The most important part of any game is the other players, and while the goal may be to win, the meta-goal is to challenge one another and have fun doing it. With this deck, I've gotten to put out the fun challenges this deck produces to not only the people I've played against, but to people on the other side of the internet, and the idea of playgroups out there just having fun with it puts a big, stupid grin on my face. And if there are 20x as many people lurking and having fun, that's even better and I wouldn't ask any more of them, but it's always nice to have someone drop in to say something as thoughtful as you have.

But also, since your name says to ask you anything...

Oh great and powerful Fortune Cookie, with your 1 sentence of wisdom at a time, should I be trying to use Echo of Eons as a Time Spiral substitute, or is the likelihood of making everyone shuffle twice in a row too unpleasant of a play pattern?

[Sefir]

...should I be trying to use Echo of Eons as a Time Spiral substitute....?

You are one step closer to convince yourself to buy a Lion's Eye Diamond. It has wonderful synergy with Echo of Eons.

I have been using Echo even before I took Time Spiral out of the deck. I had a combo for it too with Eye of the Storm, Pull from Eternity and Smothering Tithe for quite some time (I have removed Eye for now. We will see when it comes back in. Not if. When).
The card is great, but it is not a Time Spiral substitute. Time Spiral's biggest plus was the untapping of the lands and Echo just refills your hand without offering mana resources. I would consider Coveted Jewel closer to a "turbocharging card" than Echo. Especially along with things like Displacer Kitten, Replication Technique, etc.

[IAMAfortunecookieAMA]

Oh great and powerful Fortune Cookie, with your 1 sentence of wisdom at a time, should I be trying to use Echo of Eons as a Time Spiral substitute, or is the likelihood of making everyone shuffle twice in a row too unpleasant of a play pattern?

I figured after my 20th hour spent perusing this place that I should probably throw some kudos

I'm a bit of a wheels specialist. I ported Canlander's Paradox Academy to EDH and called it "Fullmetal Narset" back in the day and I'm reasonably confident that it was a partial driver of the Paradox Engine ban two months after my Reddit thread was at the top for two days.

That thread is here:

SPOILER

Show

Hide

My experience with both wheels is that my #1 favorite attribute of Echo of Eons is that it does not exile itself unless you want it to, which only Timetwister and Diminishing Returns share. This is handy with recursion engines. It gives you he flexibility of doing Lore Drakkis type stuff in one game and Mirror of Fate stuff in another game.

I think the play pattern of wheeling once is basically identical to wheeling twice. We are animals, and like Pavlov's dog, drawing a card always sparks joy and makes us drool. In my experience, that usually offsets the dread of a series of wheels - everyone gets to see more of their cool cards in their hands, and that is at least a little soothing!

[tstorm823]

I'm a bit of a wheels specialist. I ported Canlander's Paradox Academy to EDH and called it "Fullmetal Narset" back in the day and I'm reasonably confident that it was a partial driver of the Paradox Engine ban two months after my Reddit thread was at the top for two days.

That thread is here:

SPOILER

Show

Hide

Quick side note: mtgnexus is fantastic, I did not know it did that with reddit links.

My experience with both wheels is that my #1 favorite attribute of Echo of Eons is that it does not exile itself unless you want it to, which only Timetwister and Diminishing Returns share. This is handy with recursion engines. It gives you he flexibility of doing Lore Drakkis type stuff in one game and Mirror of Fate stuff in another game.

That flexibility is actually what has my attention, cause there are a few things that make it unique:

1) It doesn't exile itself if cast from hand, so you can Lore Drakkis it.
2) The flashback means I can discard to Firestorm, Jeskai Ascendancy, etc and still cast it.
3) Casting from graveyard bypasses Knowledge Pool and Possibility Storm.
4) Casting from graveyard doesn't bypass Eye of the Storm, so I can wheel and early still Storm it later.
5) The rules of flashback exile the spell if it would go anywhere else, so someway, somehow, I'm going to find an excuse to Venser, Shaper Savant it off the stack into exile so that I can draw it with Mirror of Fate. I do not know yet why that would ever be advantageous as opposed to just resolving the spell and having it exile, but there's gotta be something. Probably Rootha related.

I think the play pattern of wheeling once is basically identical to wheeling twice. We are animals, and like Pavlov's dog, drawing a card always sparks joy and makes us drool. In my experience, that usually offsets the dread of a series of wheels - everyone gets to see more of their cool cards in their hands, and that is at least a little soothing!

Fair enough. I suppose if we've reached the point where I'm wheeling multiple times consecutively, and my opponent's hands can't stop me, they likely won't be against a reroll.

You are one step closer to convince yourself to buy a Lion's Eye Diamond. It has wonderful synergy with Echo of Eons.

You're a monster.

I have been using Echo even before I took Time Spiral out of the deck. I had a combo for it too with Eye of the Storm, Pull from Eternity and Smothering Tithe for quite some time (I have removed Eye for now. We will see when it comes back in. Not if. When).
The card is great, but it is not a Time Spiral substitute. Time Spiral's biggest plus was the untapping of the lands and Echo just refills your hand without offering mana resources. I would consider Coveted Jewel closer to a "turbocharging card" than Echo. Especially along with things like Displacer Kitten, Replication Technique, etc.

I did just recently go back to Mind Over Matter, so it's probably fine going down a bit on turbocharging for the moment. I'm gonna try slotting in Echo, and if I don't like that I'll try jewel, and if I do like it I'll probably do the thing where I try out jewel in place of Barren Glory temporarily.

[IAMAfortunecookieAMA]

Tonight, I donated a Mirror of Fate and then realized, with horror, that I had a Mirror of Fate win on board that I squandered.

I missed it because it involved the new Mycosynth Gardens, which is an absurdly fun card. You can copy your Mirror of Fate and then set up your doomsday pile easily the following turn (note that you have to tap the land to copy something).

But then 6 turns later, the player I donated Mirror of Fate to activated it and ended up losing to me by decking themselves so I am counting that as a Mirror of Fate win....

[Sefir]

6 turns later, the player I donated Mirror of Fate to activated it and ended up losing to me by decking themselves so I am counting that as a Mirror of Fate win....

Remember, if you animate Mirror of Fate and beat them to death with it, it still counts as a Mirror of Fate win. Same thing with Barren Glory.

[samanater456]

I've been having a lot of success with Tavern Scoundrel what's everyone's thoughts.

[tstorm823]

I've been having a lot of success with Tavern Scoundrel what's everyone's thoughts.

It certainly looks like an engine with anything that flips coins. Anything that triggers on a condition to make mana for you is exploitable, but I'm curious if you're running this with other things to support it or just relying on it's sacrifice ability and playing it as a red mana dork.

Sacrificing any permanent is itself a strong thing to be doing, especially if you have things like Threaten, and I can picture using it with Mind Over Matter, hoping for perfectly average coin flip luck to sacrifice everything but Barren Glory while discarding my hand. But the floor on this card seems a bit low, if I'm not trying to clear my board, and I have permanent's I don't mind sacrificing, I probably also don't mind donating them with Zedruu.

What does your average use case look like, and are you playing anything I'm not to support it?

[samanater456]

Just using it on the explosive turns really. Luck is heavily involved obviously