Thalia and The Gitrog Monster

[pokken]

At what point do we tutor field? Early and often or when we are ready to pump out zombies?

I think this might be too contextual to the deck. But my instinct is to say it should be highly prioritized unless you fear fliers. At which case maze effects should be prioritized?

Fliers are going to be the main point of risk for the deck other than combos. Which is a good reason to run Nylea's Intervention fwiw.

[TheGildedGoose]

One thing I like about froggirl is she us unlikely to ever be worth targeting if you are actually trying to win and not just being salty. She's just too resilient and not high impact.

This is where my head is at. Sure, they're annoying and generate a lot of value, but they're not directly threatening. They're like Sol Ring. Sure, it's a strong card that can catapult you far ahead, but is it always the right call to bolt the bird in a multiplayer format? I think TATGM fall into a delicious tragedy of the commons type situation where while it's in everyone's interest to get rid of them, if they're spot removed, that player's individual chance of winning goes down when compared to the other players. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Did I mention we can likely just endlessly recast our commander as needed since we're going to be generating so much mana?

[Gorillajay]

One thing I like about froggirl is she us unlikely to ever be worth targeting if you are actually trying to win and not just being salty. She's just too resilient and not high impact.

This is where my head is at. Sure, they're annoying and generate a lot of value, but they're not directly threatening. They're like Sol Ring. Sure, it's a strong card that can catapult you far ahead, but is it always the right call to bolt the bird in a multiplayer format? I think TATGM fall into a delicious tragedy of the commons type situation where while it's in everyone's interest to get rid of them, if they're spot removed, that player's individual chance of winning goes down when compared to the other players. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Did I mention we can likely just endlessly recast our commander as needed since we're going to be generating so much mana?

Couldn't agree more. Add it to the list of reasons that I love this deck.

[pokken]

Did I mention we can likely just endlessly recast our commander as needed since we're going to be generating so much mana?

Yea, this plus some sac outlets plus Volrath's Stronghold make it pretty wasteful of your removal to kill her. The upper bound of mana we're likely to need to pay for her is 7, and even if it's 10 we should be able to manage that mid-game pretty easily. And then she ramps one most times she hits.

These days you really have to save your removal for combos or stuff that's going to kill you right now. You're not going to win a lot of games trying to kill one player's value engine commander.

[Gorillajay]

Played quite a few more games. Similar to the above report. No real glaring or obvious holes I think we have to close up. Initial testing indicated we need a bit more sustain, but after more testing that doesn't always seem to be the case, its really good when you need it because you can abuse your life total a lot as a result and not feel like you just get killed out of nowhere.

I think at this point it's about tuning the flex spots we have for what we want to see a little bit more of depending on the meta. TATGM as a commander continues to impress, she enables every bit of our game plan very early and lets us make it to a stage where we can capitalize on the value. Like the convo above, even when she does get targeting it's not great value for your opponent and you almost can just immediately recast her. Because of this I don't think I want to cut the turn 3 chances of her below 70%. The flex slots as I see them are:

• Seasons Past - Haven't really drawn much to be honest, I often think about how good it would be if I had it at a certain point in the game (oftne times it's only meh). I know at this point of it's a pet card and the value is good, but it's definitely replaceable.
• Druid Class - This is fine, the life gain isn't very noticeable unless we're really making several land drops. If we are really dropping that many lands we're probably already in a good spot as our engine has been established.
• One of our 2 CMC Ramp Spells - Like i said above, not likely as likely to do this unless I really want to try another card but it's still an option.

Cards I want to try or depending on meta/what we want to see more of:

• Beastmaster Ascension -- I found this when i was going through my collection and immediately thought it could be a good add to the deck. It's just another redundant win con. Sometimes tutoring hoof out is just a bitout of reach mana wise. If we're looking to do this play early. I had a game where I was short mana to tutor hoof, but had this was in the deck it would've won me the game as i had plenty of zombies.
• Primeval Bounty - Once you start dropping lands the life gain is big, this starts to add up quick and can really give you ammunition to dump your life into something like Necro/Bolas/Ad Naus. I know we don't play that many creatures, but incidentally we cast a lot of non-creature spells which can pump up our zombies or anything else we have lying around. It makes late game ramp spells or cheap spells like Loam also contribute to your board state. I also think at a glance people think it's value-over-time more or less so are more hesitant to remove it right away, but that's just my initial thought.
• Shigeki, Jukai Visionary - Seems like good recursion, I've wanted an effect like this more then once, especially if Crucible/Ramunap gets popped and I want to get it back. Bala Ged Recovery // Bala Ged Sanctuary is really currently the only other effect to recur something so i can see wanting to add more of that if you need the card advantage and aren't afraid of doubling down on GY usage and risking yourself to more GY hate.
• Retreat to Hagra, Retreat to Emeria and Retreat to Kazandu - Kazandu is very similar but watered down effect to Primeval Bounty for lower cost so maybe that would be better depending on what we're swapping out in place of it and how it effects our curve. The others are all good situationally but i think they all merit a test.

Curious how testing is going for others and if they've noticed anything i haven't mentioned in this update or the last. Trying to get as many reps in as possible to get a good feel for what our deck can do!

[pokken]

Beastmaster Ascension -- I found this when i was going through my collection and immediately thought it could be a good add to the deck. It's just another redundant win con. Sometimes tutoring hoof out is just a bitout of reach mana wise. If we're looking to do this play early. I had a game where I was short mana to tutor hoof, but had this was in the deck it would've won me the game as i had plenty of zombies.

Beastmaster Ascension is a really bad finisher, because they can single target removal to blow you out after you attack and are vulnerable. Never!

[TheGildedGoose]

Natural Order is a great "Oops, I win" card in the late game at four mana. I think this makes mana dorks more viable, particularly over the ramp enchantments. Avacyn's Pilgrim and Elves of Deep Shadow are great because they mana fix, and Ilysian Caryatid remains solid.

[pokken]

Natural Order is a great "Oops, I win" card in the late game at four mana. I think this makes mana dorks more viable, particularly over the ramp enchantments. Avacyn's Pilgrim and Elves of Deep Shadow are great because they mana fix, and Ilysian Caryatid remains solid.

I am pretty anti hoofdad, but if you're on Natural Order it makes a lot of sense.

[TheGildedGoose]

How do we feel about Splendid Reclamation? In my goldfishing, I've noticed that I don't usually have a lot of lands in my graveyard at a time. Since our only land sac outlets are generally Zuran Orb or Overgrown Estate, and I'm personally not running a lot of self-mill, there aren't that many shenanigans I can pull with it. I know it seems like an obvious include, but I suspect it's mediocre most of the time.

I think I'm ready to sleeve up and take this deck for a spin soon. I'll report on my testing results soon.

[pokken]

How do we feel about Splendid Reclamation? In my goldfishing, I've noticed that I don't usually have a lot of lands in my graveyard at a time. Since our only land sac outlets are generally Zuran Orb or Overgrown Estate, and I'm personally not running a lot of self-mill, there aren't that many shenanigans I can pull with it. I know it seems like an obvious include, but I suspect it's mediocre most of the time.

I think I'm ready to sleeve up and take this deck for a spin soon. I'll report on my testing results soon.

I should think that the likelihood of you playing 3 fetchlands from the bin, cracking them, then casting Splendid Reclamation should be pretty good. But it's a lot better with more self-mill.

I think if you run Squandered Resources (which you probably should) it's very good.

That said I wonder sometimes if Cosmic Intervention with its double triggers and ability to discount later might be better.

[Gorillajay]

Natural Order is a great "Oops, I win" card in the late game at four mana. I think this makes mana dorks more viable, particularly over the ramp enchantments. Avacyn's Pilgrim and Elves of Deep Shadow are great because they mana fix, and Ilysian Caryatid remains solid.

Yeah, i can see this being pretty good long as we have a green creature to sac. What do we cut though?

How do we feel about Splendid Reclamation? In my goldfishing, I've noticed that I don't usually have a lot of lands in my graveyard at a time. Since our only land sac outlets are generally Zuran Orb or Overgrown Estate, and I'm personally not running a lot of self-mill, there aren't that many shenanigans I can pull with it. I know it seems like an obvious include, but I suspect it's mediocre most of the time.

I think I'm ready to sleeve up and take this deck for a spin soon. I'll report on my testing results soon.

I've had very good results with Splendid Reclamation so far. Each time i've cast it fairly early (turn 5-ish) it's gotten back at least ~4 lands most of the time without even needing the Zuran Orb or Overgrown estate. Between Fetch Lands + Sac Draw lands + Crop Rotation + Loam + TATGM Sac Ability + Glacial Chasm + Flagstones of Trokair + Knight the Reliquary + Elvish Reclaimer we're very efficient at getting lands into the yard. Having Splendid Reclamation in hand lets you be SUPER greedy with all of the above and then have zero downside to it because you get it all back.

I would say it's even worth considering adding the second effect of Worldslayer in if we want to double up and have both Zuran orb and Overgrown Estate.

I think I'm ready to sleeve up and take this deck for a spin soon. I'll report on my testing results soon.

I know we have talked a few changes since the last deckist update. Do you have an up to date list of what you're planning to try for your initial debut testing?

[TheGildedGoose]

I think if you run Squandered Resources (which you probably should) it's very good.

What are we using the mana from Squandered Resources? I think, like Tireless Provisioner, it's winmore.

Yeah, i can see this being pretty good long as we have a green creature to sac. What do we cut though?

I'm lukewarm on Hostile Negotiations. It's a very cool card and digs us deep at instant speed, but there's no guarantee we'll get what we actually need.

I've had very good results with Splendid Reclamation so far. Each time i've cast it fairly early (turn 5-ish) it's gotten back at least ~4 lands most of the time without even needing the Zuran Orb or Overgrown estate. Between Fetch Lands + Sac Draw lands + Crop Rotation + Loam + TATGM Sac Ability + Glacial Chasm + Flagstones of Trokair + Knight the Reliquary + Elvish Reclaimer we're very efficient at getting lands into the yard. Having Splendid Reclamation in hand lets you be SUPER greedy with all of the above and then have zero downside to it because you get it all back.

I would say it's even worth considering adding the second effect of Worldslayer in if we want to double up and have both Zuran orb and Overgrown Estate.

Wow, 4 lands on turn 5? That seems far-fetched to me. That would be 3 fetches and an attack step with TATGM, right? There's a roughly 10% chance of that happening if my math is right.

Regardless, you make a compelling point about it in the mid to late game. Assuming you meant World Shaper instead of Worldslayer, it was in an earlier draft of the deck but without a way to consistently sacrifice it (outside of TATGM, of course) I don't think it's worth playing.

I know we have talked a few changes since the last deckist update. Do you have an up to date list of what you're planning to try for your initial debut testing?

The decklist in the OP is now up-to-date.

[pokken]

Seasons past squandered resources splendid reclamation loops are my jam. But also....finale for x=10 or torment for whatever.

2 mana to turn 10 lands into 18 mana is really good.

[Gorillajay]

I'm lukewarm on Hostile Negotiations. It's a very cool card and digs us deep at instant speed, but there's no guarantee we'll get what we actually need.

You read my mind! playing with Hostile Negotions has been just fine so far. Don't hate it, don't love it either.

What are we using the mana from Squandered Resources? I think, like Tireless Provisioner, it's winmore.

This was my take, i think if you want to play Torment as a win con it's got a slot. Other then that i'm not sure about it. We don't have enough big mana dumps. Looping with Splendid Reclamation is fun but soo greedy lol.

Assuming you meant World Shaper instead of Worldslayer, it was in an earlier draft of the deck but without a way to consistently sacrifice it (outside of TATGM, of course) I don't think it's worth playing.

Correct lol, and yeah i love the effect, but there's not just room for two of them unfortunately it feels like. At this point cutting is VERY difficult.

Wow, 4 lands on turn 5? That seems far-fetched to me. That would be 3 fetches and an attack step with TATGM, right? There's a roughly 10% chance of that happening if my math is right.

Not exactly, You don't need 3 fetches. There's a few more ways to get there. You can Knight of the Reliquary, Elvish Reclaimer Crop Rotation all before turn + 5 to get lands in the yard.
Example:
Turn 1 Fetch + Birds - (1 land in yard)
Turn 2 KOTR Non Fetch Land - (1 Land in Yard)
Turn 3 1 Non Fetch Land + TATGM + another Non Fetch Land (Forest/plains), activate KOTR sac one of your 4 lands (Forest/plains). Get flagstones (2 Lands in Yard)
Turn 4 Attack TATGM sac Flagstones get plains Draw a card, Activate KOTR sac plains get FOTD. (4 lands in yard and you haven't even played either of your land drops from hand yet on this turn).
Turn 5 profit?

The above requires a turn 1 ramp which we have like 4/5 of? 1 fetch land and KOTR or Elvish Reclaimer (sequencing is a bit different but i think you have a similar outcome since you can play reclaimer on turn 1 or 2). Add those scenarios to the situations where you have 2+ fetch lands and/or sac lands and the yard fills up pretty quick and pretty consistently.

Turn 6 is more reasonable for sure, But the point I was trying to make is that each time I cast Splendid Reclamation It was for at least 4 lands and it was earlier then I expected to do it. but i don't think expected turn 5 is out of the question either. Also, i know Flagstones of Trokair wasn't in your last iteration but in playing with it seems fantastic.

The decklist in the OP is now up-to-date.

Nice!

Edit: I think the only differences i'll have from the OP list to mine will be:
- Elves of Deep Shadow
- Seasons Past

+Deathrite Shaman
+Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines


I've given up on SP unfortunately i tested with it enough to feel like it didn't have a good opportunitty to cast it and if i did it wasn't impactful enough. Having Eternal Witness is good recursion plus i maybe get to double up on the effect with new mommy. I realize i'm not making any friends with this deck so might as lean lean in on that and take advantage of such a generically good card.

For Deathrite, there's a bit of GY effects in my meta so I want to be able to interact with that when i can. Also, i see a bit of fetchlands so hopefuly more often i'm exiles other peoples lands instead of my own. I realize it may be a little less consistent but willing to give it a shot.

[pokken]

If the failure mode is 2 lands and it's bad Explosive Vegetation well, people play that card

[TheGildedGoose]

Unfortunately, I agree with cutting Seasons Past. Looping it is slow and greedy for this deck, and there are more efficient ways to draw/recur cards. If we were a blue-based control deck, sure, but in this deck I don't think it's worth playing. What do we replace it with?

I suppose Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines isn't a bad choice. I'm also reconsidering Retreat to Hagra. While the first mode isn't great, it still has niche uses, and the second ability does two things for us. Greensleeves, Maro-Sorcerer is a solid additional win condition. Maybe a board wipe? Hard to say at this point. I think I'm going to try Retreat to Hagra. Having a way to kill opponents without combat is useful, and the lifegain is even more relevant with all the fetchlands and black card draw spells

[pokken]

I definitely don't agree with cutting seasons past. You have very few actual threatening things in this deck and if people kill them it can really set you back. The inevitability of SP+DT looping is hard to top.

I really don't know what you're going to add that does the same level of card draw, and specifically gets the best stuff that's died.

[TheGildedGoose]

I definitely don't agree with cutting seasons past. You have very few actual threatening things in this deck and if people kill them it can really set you back. The inevitability of SP+DT looping is hard to top.

I really don't know what you're going to add that does the same level of card draw, and specifically gets the best stuff that's died.

When I resolve Seasons Past in Phelddagrif, it feels like entering my final form. I reload a ton of removal and countermagic, along with, ideally, a tutor. It is, in effect, a win condition. What exactly are we returning here? Sure, with a tutor it provides an inevitability, but I would rather play another tutor to find exactly what I need at that particular moment instead of relying on it being in my graveyard.

How do we feel about End-Raze Forerunners as a back up Craterhoof Behemoth? Obviously not nearly as good, but having an alternative option in case Hoof is Jester's Capped or something seems okay.

[pokken]

How do we feel about End-Raze Forerunners as a back up Craterhoof Behemoth? Obviously not nearly as good, but having an alternative option in case Hoof is Jester's Capped or something seems okay.

I think I'd go with Pathbreaker Ibex -- even though it isn't as good hardcasted, it's so much more lethal with Finale of Devastation that sometimes it's straight up faster than hoofdad with that--

Finale for 10 with 5 guys with Hoofdad is +16/+16, but with Ibex it's a minimum of +23/23 (+13 from ibex trigger and +10 from finale) -- making a board of 5 zombie tokens likely to do ~151 damage (vs. 111 or some odd with Hoofdad).

I think the upside of that is enough better than forerunners.

My second choice after Forerunners would be Kamahl, Fist of Krosa because it scales with mana a bit better, but I think Ibex's kaboom factor is better than either.

(alternatively, Akroma's Will is a pretty good substitute; it takes a very wide board to win but it doubles as a protection spell sometimes too so is nice, and lifegain)

And finally Serra's Emissary can be pretty solid. It makes them all unblockable naming creatures and makes you simultaneously immune to combat damage. Sometimes nice to have a defensive option (can be used to delay around pillow fort cards.etc)

[TheGildedGoose]

I think I'd go with Pathbreaker Ibex -- even though it isn't as good hardcasted, it's so much more lethal with Finale of Devastation that sometimes it's straight up faster than hoofdad with that--

Finale for 10 with 5 guys with Hoofdad is +16/+16, but with Ibex it's a minimum of +23/23 (+13 from ibex trigger and +10 from finale) -- making a board of 5 zombie tokens likely to do ~151 damage (vs. 111 or some odd with Hoofdad).

I think the upside of that is enough better than forerunners.

My second choice after Forerunners would be Kamahl, Fist of Krosa because it scales with mana a bit better, but I think Ibex's kaboom factor is better than either.

(alternatively, Akroma's Will is a pretty good substitute; it takes a very wide board to win but it doubles as a protection spell sometimes too so is nice, and lifegain)

And finally Serra's Emissary can be pretty solid. It makes them all unblockable naming creatures and makes you simultaneously immune to combat damage. Sometimes nice to have a defensive option (can be used to delay around pillow fort cards.etc)

Ibex doesn't have haste so it's susceptible to Wraths. As far as Finaleing out Ibex, well, the difference between +16/+16 and +23/+23 is pretty irrelevant as both are going to kill the entire table.

[pokken]

3x40 is 120. That requires at least 7 total bodies to kill with hoof assuming no blockers. Assume some blockers and stuff changes fast.

The efficiency advantage of ibexing the table from 5-6 bodies vs 7-8 bodies is substantial. It's more vulnerable to wrath's and interaction but kills basically a turn earlier with finale.

It also beats torpor orb which is a nice tool.

You have to weigh the pros and cons. Personally i might play Akromas will. Doubling as board protection is nice.

Oh traditional elesh norn is also much better than forerunners.

[TheGildedGoose]

3x40 is 120. That requires at least 7 total bodies to kill with hoof assuming no blockers. Assume some blockers and stuff changes fast.

The efficiency advantage of ibexing the table from 5-6 bodies vs 7-8 bodies is substantial. It's more vulnerable to wrath's and interaction but kills basically a turn earlier with finale.

It also beats torpor orb which is a nice tool.

You have to weigh the pros and cons. Personally i might play Akromas will. Doubling as board protection is nice.

Oh traditional elesh norn is also much better than forerunners.

What game have you played in where life totals haven't changed by turn 8 or whatever? I think it's more likely that you'll lose to a sweeper or something rather than not having enough bodies to do enough damage to the table.

I like End-Raze Forerunners because it's tutorable with Green Sun's Zenith and Natural Order and wins that turn (in theory) unlike Ibex, which kills the next turn (in theory). Both are lethal with Finale of Devastation. Norn doesn't have the same capacity, though I agree she's better in a vacuum. Will's board protection is okay, but if the battlefield is being reset we tend to benefit more from that since we can rebuild faster and more consistently than the other decks.

As I said earlier, a consistent decent plan is better than an inconsistent good plan. Some of these cards have a higher ceiling but a much lower floor or aren't easily accessible given the deck's options. I'm thinking of finding room for Contested War Zone again as an easily tutorable land option to buff our attackers. It's not great, sure, but being able to find it at instant speed to change combat math seems very relevant.

[pokken]

I like End-Raze Forerunners because

I don't know that there's anything anyone could say that would want me to ever draw End-Raze Forerunners as a magic card from my deck. like if it hit my hand I would delete my deck list and move on

It'll take 20-30 zombies for that to be a table kill, which is just..yuck. And the card has zero other redeeming qualities.

If you're stuck on the off chance your Hoof dies, wanting another GSZ/NO target, Kamahl, Fist of Krosa and Kamahl, Heart of Krosa are both better.

But after a lot of reflection I think Ohran Frostfang is the absolute best use of that slot; it gives your zmobies evasion, it draws a million cards, and it's playable if you draw it, and good with any number of zombies on board. And best of all it's good on turn 3-4 whereas Forerunners is a total brick.

[TheGildedGoose]

Oh yeah, Kamahl, Heart of Krosa is much better. That's an easy swap.

[yeti1069]

If you're already looking at landfall=body cards as a wincon, and considering the white Retreat, why not felidar's retreat?