[Speculation] Ban List Update Prediction Thread

[Airi]

My proposal assumes that tournaments and events, being competitive in nature, would use the competitive banlist, with the original casual banlist being reserved for no skin games. I thought that was implied but perhaps not clearly enough. I also would think the RC themselves would be putting out the separate banlist. I understand how variant formats run into the legitimacy problem, but the RC maintaining the cEDH banlist would not only avoid that, but reinforce the legitimacy of the format by having it created and approved by the RC, who would also be able to coordinate with WotC. The latter is important because that gives them and opportunity to discuss what cards could be printed to balance the format, which is an important tool to have. Balancing a format through bans is only partially effective, being able to print hate cards or strengthen strategies that punish currently dominant archetypes is the predominant way that competitive formats are balanced (and why any hope of balancing the format is a joke without it).

You can't make the assumption that those would be used unless WotC embraced a cEDH banlist, which is not a guarantee. LGS tournaments might opt to use it, but it's much, much harder to make that push for side events at MagicFest.

[onering]

I'm not actually making an assumption, I'm using "assume" to mean "this needs to be a given for this to work." Meaning, by saying assume, I am indicating that the thing assumes is a prerequisite for my idea's viability. I suppose I could have been more clear, but it seems so obvious to me that if wizards doesn't embrace the change that the change will fail that it doesn't really need to be said. I'm arguing the merits of the proposal, which necessarily assumes the proposal is adopted. When doing so, there is no point in specifying that those merits won't materialize if the proposal is not adopted, that is obvious.

So since the merits of the proposal don't seem to be in question, whether wizards would embrace it becomes the second question. One of the reasons I believe it should be the RC that makes this change is because I believe that would make wizards more likely to embrace the change (there's other reasons as well, not least of which being that the RC has a proven track record that has not only created the format but been the driving force in it thriving). The RC already has authority over the banlist, and Wizards already respects their stewardship of the format enough to not only defer to them on all rules matters, but to consult with them on products and even cards. The RC has a direct channel to Wizards, and Wizards values their ideas and it has proven to be a good working relationship. If the RC were to create a separate competitive banlist with the intent of providing some balance in competitive play (that's what a flash ban would be about), then the intention of such a banlist would be to govern tournament play (this isn't an assumption, creating a competitive banlist without focusing on competitive play would be a pointless exercise). Given that, the RC would want to ensure that such a banlist actually would be adopted as the tournament standard before they release it. The RC has the tools to actually do that. They have the ability to consult with Wizards to ensure that Wizards backs the idea and will adopt it before they ever announce it, and if they get a no they could just scrap the idea. If wizards officially backs it as their banlist for edh tournaments and other competitive events (and yes, that's an if, but again the cEDH banlist just doesn't happen without it), then other organizers will be under immense pressure to adopt it. It would be the RC officially saying what list to use in tournaments and Wizards endorsing that, and the new list catering to the needs and wants of the cEDH player base, what event would really want to buck that? Again, none of this happens without the RC and Wizards being in agreement, but that really shouldn't have to be said. It's just like I don't have to say that none of this happens if the RC is itself fully opposed to creating and maintaining a cedh banlist.

Of course, some other group could come up with a cedh banlist, but I'm opposed to thus because it would fail for the myriad reasons other posters, yourself included, have already detailed.

[MRHblue]

Wizards already puts up with confusion and issues implementing 2 ban lists for 'Commander' , the RC list and a separate one for MTGO 1v1.

I doubt they would entertain a third.

I think the idea of additive additional set of cards, maintained by whomever wants to do so, for paper is the best solution. Rule 0 : 'Are we using the addendum?', clean and direct. If the answer is no, the rest of the Rule 0 goes as usual. A Yes assumes cEDH, no power-level etc needed.

[Hermes_]

I was on the ban flash band wagon but now, I'm wondering if the actual problem is the fact that players are using proxies.

[pokken]

I was on the ban flash band wagon but now, I'm wondering if the actual problem is the fact that players are using proxies.

As someone who has all the stuff for any CEDH deck I can tell you that proxies are not the issue. It'd be pretty wildly unfair for me to be able to thrash people just because they can't afford the busted cards. There are enough enfranchised players where there'll always be a few people with complete decks to contend with.

No other format is constrained by finances like that. Most vintage circles are 15, 20 proxies. I'm still iffy on the bandwagon for flash, personally, but CEDH would not exist as a format without proxies because the baseline cost for a deck is ~$4-6000 in staples.

[MRHblue]

I was on the ban flash band wagon but now, I'm wondering if the actual problem is the fact that players are using proxies.

Do you mean the issues is just that people proxies, so the 'best deck' is always available to everyone? Or is there something else?

Separately, have you seen any gameplay that involves Demonic Consultation? Because a flash ban would be pretty quickly followed by a call for that to go as well, under the same idea.

[Hermes_]

I was on the ban flash band wagon but now, I'm wondering if the actual problem is the fact that players are using proxies.

As someone who has all the stuff for any CEDH deck I can tell you that proxies are not the issue. It'd be pretty wildly unfair for me to be able to thrash people just because they can't afford the busted cards. There are enough enfranchised players where there'll always be a few people with complete decks to contend with.

No other format is constrained by finances like that. Most vintage circles are 15, 20 proxies. I'm still iffy on the bandwagon for flash, personally, but CEDH would not exist as a format without proxies because the baseline cost for a deck is ~$4-6000 in staples.

I was on the ban flash band wagon but now, I'm wondering if the actual problem is the fact that players are using proxies.

Do you mean the issues is just that people proxies, so the 'best deck' is always available to everyone?

This is what I mean,if proxies are "officially" banned,what would the meta for the average play group look like?

[pokken]

This is what I mean,if proxies are "officially" banned,what would the meta for the average play group look like?

2 people playing fully powered decks, 4 people playing mid powered decks and 2 people playing jank, in my experience. And the 2 people on fully powered decks run everyone over.

For more context, this was my CEDH playgroup when I joined it. A bunch of people with half-powered decks missing the busted mana rocks and timetwister and duals, two people with fully powered decks, and a few hangers on who played budget stuff without even fetchlands. The two guys with powered decks won almost every game, with one guy with an almost fully powered Kess deck (that he since got upgraded to full power minus timetwister) the second most common winner. Now one guy rotated out and Kess and Kenrith are the two fully powered decks.

I pushed pretty hard to get the people playing budget decks to go ahead and proxy their ideal lists and it's improving things quite a bit. The two powered decks are proxying their timetwisters now since I have one. So now it's basically just everyone on full power decks.

It's *really* not fun just rofl-stomping the weaker decks in CEDH.

[MRHblue]

@Hermes_
I just dont think that has anything to do with it. Nothing being talked about here is even $10, its all the interaction and cheap draw / mana you need that is so expensive. The meta having LESS answers certainly isn't the answer.

[Hermes_]

My wondering about proxies was due mainly to my own curiosity and the reddit thread from last month or so in which the tournament which didn't allow proxies was denounced.

[pokken]

My wondering about proxies was due mainly to my own curiosity and the reddit thread from last month or so in which the tournament which didn't allow proxies was denounced.

They had a point which is that proxyless tournaments are going to have a different meta and can't really be taken as indicative of format health when 99% of CEDH is played on Cockatrice/MTGO/Xmage/Discord/etc.

I think they went about it in an unnecessarily aggressive way, but nothing has changed about CEDH to suddenly make playing mono white a good choice.

[Hermes_]

My wondering about proxies was due mainly to my own curiosity and the reddit thread from last month or so in which the tournament which didn't allow proxies was denounced.

They had a point which is that proxyless tournaments are going to have a different meta and can't really be taken as indicative of format health when 99% of CEDH is played on Cockatrice/MTGO/Xmage/Discord/etc.

That was the other thing I wondered about,outside of tournaments,it seems that if you're setting up a game on Cockatrice/Xmage/Discord etc (not sure about MTGO), then I would think you could easily enforce a "soft ban" via rule Zero but then I would think it would go against playing at the highest power?

[pokken]

That was the other thing I wondered about,outside of tournaments,it seems that if you're setting up a game on Cockatrice/Xmage/Discord etc (not sure about MTGO), then I would think you could easily enforce a "soft ban" via rule Zero but then I would think it would go against playing at the highest power?

I guess, I am not really sure why the community doesn't just agree not to play Flash myself. Feels like a pretty simple thing to do. My group has talked about it and agreed loosely that if it gets to be a big problem we'll talk about it.

[onering]

For mtgo, deck prices are really cheap compared to paper because older staples are readily available and not restrained by the reserved list, and you only need a single copy of a card for all your edh decks. Proxies are obviously not possible but they are also generally not needed. I mostly don't see cEDH decks outside of tables labeled cEDH because most cEDH players want to play against cEDH decks and not pub stomp.

[onering]

For mtgo, deck prices are really cheap compared to paper because older staples are readily available and not restrained by the reserved list, and you only need a single copy of a card for all your edh decks. Proxies are obviously not possible but they are also generally not needed. I mostly don't see cEDH decks outside of tables labeled cEDH because most cEDH players want to play against cEDH decks and not pub stomp.

[MRHblue]

I guess, I am not really sure why the community doesn't just agree not to play Flash myself. Feels like a pretty simple thing to do. My group has talked about it and agreed loosely that if it gets to be a big problem we'll talk about it.

Demonic Consultation and Thasa's Oracle seems to be a large issue as well

[pokken]

I guess, I am not really sure why the community doesn't just agree not to play Flash myself. Feels like a pretty simple thing to do. My group has talked about it and agreed loosely that if it gets to be a big problem we'll talk about it.

Demonic Consultation and Thasa's Oracle seems to be a large issue as well

They are. I think the flash decks that ran narcomeba/blood artist/viscera seer as the breakfast package finishers were quite a bit more full of crap cards and vulnerable to a lot more hate, and it made them a little less one-sided than they are now where they can pivot to the consult line and nothing stops it.

My gut instinct is that consult/pact are nearly as good as flash, especially with oracle. There are people who argue that the consult/oracle decks are closer to the next tier than not, but I disagree personally.

[Sheldon]

I keep threatening to do a "If I Were to Design a cEDH Banned List" article and the other three RC members keep threatening to kill me if I do.

[papa_funk]

I keep threatening to do a "If I Were to Design a cEDH Banned List" article and the other three RC members keep threatening to kill me if I do.

I'm sorry, Sheldon, but "Restrict the cardpool to standard, reduce deck size to 60 cards and let planeswalkers be commanders" just won't cut it.

[cryogen]

I keep threatening to do a "If I Were to Design a cEDH Banned List" article and the other three RC members keep threatening to kill me if I do.

"Ante cards are unbanned for cEDH play, proxies are officially not allowed."

Problem solved.

[Hermes_]

That would make the Cedh reddit make chernobyl look like picnic. If i were an evil troll,i'd make a post there about your wanting to do a thought experiment.

[papa_funk]

I keep threatening to do a "If I Were to Design a cEDH Banned List" article and the other three RC members keep threatening to kill me if I do.

"Ante cards are unbanned for cEDH play, proxies are officially not allowed."

Problem solved.

Well, if you're going to go there, you clearly unban the power 8, too.

[cryogen]

I keep threatening to do a "If I Were to Design a cEDH Banned List" article and the other three RC members keep threatening to kill me if I do.

"Ante cards are unbanned for cEDH play, proxies are officially not allowed."

Problem solved.

Well, if you're going to go there, you clearly unban the power 8, too.

I already want Library unbanned, so sure?

[Hermes_]

I can haz worldfire?

[JqlGirl]

The quarterly announcement is coming in a week on 20 April, so let the baseless speculation begin!