The Community Deck Build Project v5.0b

[aliciaofthevast]

There's a part of me that wants to make a potential last pick a good one, but there's the other side of me that asks why there's no Beast Within. So I'm gonna nominate Beast Within, final answer.

Hmm, Shigeki is a repeatable Mulch, and that's a card we like. Is Mulch still good when it has suspend - 1? Because that's what we're looking at really. On the other hand we can channel it, then Corpse Dance it, and get a mulch and return it to hand and that is a pretty slick line of play! So I think that's a yay.

[Dunharrow]

Yay Shigeki and Beast Within, I am very happy with these two nominations

My last submission will be a creature that draws cards. I have had a tough time deciding between Bontu and Regal Force. My gut says that Regal Force will be better, but Bontu can turn on delirium and draw cards. Synergy vs power?
I think you all prefer synergy, so I will say God-Eternal Bontu,
Both are good with all the spider tokens
Bontu can turn on delirium in a pinch
bontu is better after a boardwipe too
and finally, Bontu only costs 5 mana.

[Jemolk]

Beast Within is fantastic removal. About as versatile as it gets. Never a bad thing to have. Yea.

God-Eternal Bontu, meanwhile, can potentially draw large numbers of cards, serves as a sacrifice outlet, and can recur itself if it dies or is exiled. Using Corpse Dance on Bontu, we don't even have to sacrifice it to keep it around. I'm a fan. Yea.

EDIT: Oh yeah, @aliciaofthevast, Shigeki isn't just a repeatable Mulch. Mulch puts the lands in hand. Shigeki puts a land on the battlefield. But the channel is the real reason I wanted to see it in here.

[Avacyn Believer]

Yay for Doom Whisperer, seems like a decent way to pay life to turn on Delirium. Also for Shegeki, seems like this card has a lot of utility.

Ransack the Lab yay too, glad to see some low CMC cards.

I am torn on Beast Within, not because its a bad card but because we already have a lot of interaction in the deck. It's just my experience with decks that had too much interaction being boring to play because I sit there waiting to remove stuff rather than playing my deck.

I like Bontu, especially in token decks. I am curious to see how much draw spells we have for low CMC, but I think Bontu is a better pick for those higher CMC slots.

[3drinks]

Shigeki and Doom Whisperer have both been confirmed (98). Beast Within|tsr is at 2-0 in favor but I'm about to give it a yay which confirms it (99). Looks like God-Eternal Bontu is the pick, which I approve of as regal force only draws for G creatures. Bontu is more flexible, so I like that anyway. I guess that makes me the third yay, which brings us to 100 cards.

[3drinks]

With the 100 filled in, this is now the time to make the final check and discuss land options. Somehow I had 99 cards so I slotted Malakir Rebirth // Malakir Mire in the land slot, to bring it to 37 lands. Figured since we're evaluating lands anyway that's the simplest solution.

Decklist

DecklistCMCManaPricesChartsDraw 7

Commander(1)

1 Ishkanah, Grafwidow

Mana Value 1(9)

1 Malakir Rebirth

1 Sinister Concoction

1 Skullclamp

1 Sol Ring

1 Songs of the Damned

1 Stitcher's Supplier

1 Traverse the Ulvenwald

1 Vessel of Nascency

1 Wayfarer's Bauble

Mana Value 2(16)

1 Altar of Dementia

1 Assassin's Trophy

1 Evolutionary Leap

1 Grisly Salvage

1 Life from the Loam

1 Nature's Lore

1 Night's Whisper

1 Nim Deathmantle

1 Oversold Cemetery

1 Plumb the Forbidden

1 Ransack the Lab

1 Sakura-Tribe Elder

1 Satyr Wayfinder

1 Shigeki, Jukai Visionary

1 Sign in Blood

1 Three Visits

Mana Value 3(14)

1 Arachnogenesis

1 Ashnod's Altar

1 Beast Within

1 Blex, Vexing Pest

1 Braids, Arisen Nightmare

1 Coffin Queen

1 Corpse Dance

1 Cultivate

1 Curse of Clinging Webs

1 Eternal Witness

1 Kodama's Reach

1 Nyx Weaver

1 Phyrexian Altar

1 Wood Elves

Mana Value 4(13)

1 Aetherworks Marvel

1 Arasta of the Endless Web

1 Body Launderer

1 Culling Ritual

1 Dread Return

1 Grave Pact

1 Lethal Scheme

1 Pattern of Rebirth

1 Rotwidow Pack

1 Skyfisher Spider

1 Skyshroud Claim

1 Timeless Witness

1 Whisper, Blood Liturgist

Mana Value 5(8)

1 Doom Whisperer

1 God-Eternal Bontu

1 Junji, the Midnight Sky

1 Lolth, Spider Queen

1 Rescue from the Underworld

1 Sidisi, Undead Vizier

1 Silklash Spider

1 Spider Spawning

Mana Value 6(3)

1 Demon of Dark Schemes

1 Kokusho, the Evening Star

1 Lord of the Forsaken

Lands(36)

1 Ash Barrens

1 Blooming Marsh

1 Bojuka Bog

1 Castle Locthwain

1 Command Tower

1 Darkbore Pathway

1 Demolition Field

1 Fabled Passage

1 Golgari Rot Farm

1 Haunted Mire

1 High Market

1 Hive of the Eye Tyrant

1 Lair of the Hydra

1 Llanowar Wastes

1 Necroblossom Snarl

1 Nurturing Peatland

1 Oran-Rief, the Vastwood

1 Overgrown Tomb

1 Path of Ancestry

3 Snow-Covered Forest

5 Snow-Covered Swamp

1 Swarmyard

1 Tectonic Edge

1 Treetop Village

1 Twilight Mire

1 Undergrowth Stadium

1 Urza's Saga

1 Woodland Cemetery

1 Woodland Chasm

1 Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth

Approximate Total Cost:

[aliciaofthevast]

I think we wanted Phyrexian Tower right? Because it's not like a thousand dollars anymore? I think it's a better pick than Hive of the Eye Tyrant which is really clunky graveyard hate. Lair of the Hydra can at least be a mana sink.

Is Songs of the Damned still good? Would smother ritual be better? What if it were Dark Petition so it could be a tutor + ritual?

[toctheyounger]

I think we wanted Phyrexian Tower right? Because it's not like a thousand dollars anymore? I think it's a better pick than Hive of the Eye Tyrant which is really clunky graveyard hate. Lair of the Hydra can at least be a mana sink.

Agree, tower would be wonderful.

I've goldfished it a little on moxfield and the basic mechanics work fine, if a little slowly. I think we could definitely stand to cut the worst of the land ramp like Cultivate, we will not miss it. I'd also like to state how much I hate ravnica bounce lands and don't think Golgari Rot Farm deserves a spot. We could swap land for land or just open up another slot for nonlands; the deck has performed well in the 3-4 punts I've taken on it.

There are zero problems with hitting delirium btw, we golden there.

In terms of closing a game, with a lot of sac and shying away from combo we're probably gonna struggle a little at least. We're somewhere between value reanimation and combat wins, so I don't really know where that leaves us for what else we could add to get us there. It needs something we can rely on to get us on the right track. Otherwise, though, I think we did pretty well here.

[Dunharrow]

I also strongly dislike bounce lands.
What do people think of Westvale Abbey // Ormendahl, Profane Prince? Should be easy to transform in this deck.

@toctheyounger are you thinking we need a Blood Artist / Syr Konrad, the Grim? Or maybe a Mikaeus, the Unhallowed which is an anthem that gives us extra reanimation?
Or maybe a tutor?

[3drinks]

Westvale looks good but that cost is high. Effectively six mana to get plowed, because it's just one body we're jumping through hoops for. I don't think the payoff is in line with what we're doing here. I think Drownyard Temple is a good pick since we can buy it back if we do happen to get an unfortunate mill.

I like Grim Backwoods because of course I'm a fan of a four (effectively five) mv draw a card effect.

Does The Gitrog Monster have any legs at all here? Probably a Sadistic Hypnotist would be better, yeah.

I came in here because I was thinking we missed a Zulaport Cutthroat|tsr which would be the chef's kiss with small disposable bodies.

[Jemolk]

Conversely, I am a huge fan of bounce lands. They're card advantage. Two land drops in one card. The Ravnica ones are also no slower than ordinary taplands, because you can tap the land you're going to bounce first. Sure, sometimes you wind up having to play one before getting to cast any spells and it makes you discard to hand size, but that's still card selection of a sort, because it's effectively drawing an extra card that's always a land.

I am also a fan of Hive of the Eye Tyrant. Yes, it's clunky graveyard hate, but it's graveyard hate on a land, and graveyard hate on a land that doesn't affect our graveyard. I think that's worth a little clunk, myself.

As far as winning the game goes, we might be able to use something like Zulaport Cutthroat, indeed. On the other hand, Ishkanah helps drain people out and is our commander, Rotwidow Pack can drain people out even faster so long as we have disposable creatures in the yard, and Kokusho loops are absolutely an option as well. Also just attacking with piles and piles of spiders from Arachnogenesis, Curse of Clinging Webs, Spider Spawning, and/or commander reanimation loops. Never hurts to have more options, of course. Only concern is what we'd have to give up to include them.

[Dunharrow]

Bala Ged Recovery // Bala Ged Sanctuary should be in this, right?

My issue with bounce lands is that they are very slow. We also have a ton of ETB tapped lands and having lands come into play tapped multiple times seems infuriating.
And they they tend to get randomly hated out by random Acidic Slimes.

if we want lands that tap for multiple mana I think the hexproof Lotus Vale makes more sense, since it also enables delirium. I just don't remember the name.

I play bounce lands with MDFCs so I can come around if we put in a few more MDFC lands in the deck.

[toctheyounger]

I think something like Champion of Lambholt would out in some work. It's a sleeper card that makes combat a true win condition so, so easily. It's cheap to cast and definitely in budget.

I could see aristocrats here, although I think we're most likely going to see it as a way to get totals closer to zero moreso than a definitive won condition. The outlier there is probably Syr Konrad, the Grim. It probably should've made the cut first time around to be honest. I could see it really doing some work.

Living Death could be nice too. It's a good wipe anyway that often doubles as a finisher, plus with witnesses we have the option of being able to loop it too.

@Dunharrow it's Lotus Field

[3drinks]

Bala Ged Recovery // Bala Ged Sanctuary should be in this, right?

My issue with bounce lands is that they are very slow. We also have a ton of ETB tapped lands and having lands come into play tapped multiple times seems infuriating.
And they they tend to get randomly hated out by random Acidic Slimes.

if we want lands that tap for multiple mana I think the hexproof Lotus Vale makes more sense, since it also enables delirium. I just don't remember the name.

I play bounce lands with MDFCs so I can come around if we put in a few more MDFC lands in the deck.

I don't think Bala Ged Recovery is as "free" as Malakir Rebirth, given that no one is clamouring to cast Recollect. On the other hand, if my Rot Farm is getting slimed instead of, say, my Lair of the Hydra or Phyrexian Tower|usg, I'm generally happy. Rot Farm isn't really an issue if people stop counting it as two lands, because it's not two lands. Karoo lands rock for that virtual card advantage aspect and, while it's not in this deck, the ability to net mana with an untap. As well, in anything that's not fussed about trying to tap out every turn, karoo lands go up in value since you now have an opportunity to stick it.

Lotus Field is the card you're thinking of, and I'm here for it.

[Dunharrow]

Bala Ged Recovery // Bala Ged Sanctuary should be in this, right?

My issue with bounce lands is that they are very slow. We also have a ton of ETB tapped lands and having lands come into play tapped multiple times seems infuriating.
And they they tend to get randomly hated out by random Acidic Slimes.

if we want lands that tap for multiple mana I think the hexproof Lotus Vale makes more sense, since it also enables delirium. I just don't remember the name.

I play bounce lands with MDFCs so I can come around if we put in a few more MDFC lands in the deck.

I don't think Bala Ged Recovery is as "free" as Malakir Rebirth, given that no one is clamouring to cast Recollect. On the other hand, if my Rot Farm is getting slimed instead of, say, my Lair of the Hydra or Phyrexian Tower|usg, I'm generally happy. Rot Farm isn't really an issue if people stop counting it as two lands, because it's not two lands. Karoo lands rock for that virtual card advantage aspect and, while it's not in this deck, the ability to net mana with an untap. As well, in anything that's not fussed about trying to tap out every turn, karoo lands go up in value since you now have an opportunity to stick it.

Lotus Field is the card you're thinking of, and I'm here for it.

In my opinion MDFCs are much stronger than Lair of the Hydra. I am never really interested in losing a land to doom blade, especially after sinking a bunch of mana into it.
Also think that the two mythic MDFCs are worth considering in any 2 color deck. They are usually better than any basic.

[toctheyounger]

So I don't know how this final pass has worked previously but I think without some structure it could drag on a little. Would we all be ok if we got say one or two final picks with a suggested switch for yea/nay? Now that we know the shape of the deck picks should be easy enough to sculpt really well and finish on a great note.

[3drinks]

Bala Ged Recovery // Bala Ged Sanctuary should be in this, right?

My issue with bounce lands is that they are very slow. We also have a ton of ETB tapped lands and having lands come into play tapped multiple times seems infuriating.
And they they tend to get randomly hated out by random Acidic Slimes.

if we want lands that tap for multiple mana I think the hexproof Lotus Vale makes more sense, since it also enables delirium. I just don't remember the name.

I play bounce lands with MDFCs so I can come around if we put in a few more MDFC lands in the deck.

I don't think Bala Ged Recovery is as "free" as Malakir Rebirth, given that no one is clamouring to cast Recollect. On the other hand, if my Rot Farm is getting slimed instead of, say, my Lair of the Hydra or Phyrexian Tower|usg, I'm generally happy. Rot Farm isn't really an issue if people stop counting it as two lands, because it's not two lands. Karoo lands rock for that virtual card advantage aspect and, while it's not in this deck, the ability to net mana with an untap. As well, in anything that's not fussed about trying to tap out every turn, karoo lands go up in value since you now have an opportunity to stick it.

Lotus Field is the card you're thinking of, and I'm here for it.

In my opinion MDFCs are much stronger than Lair of the Hydra. I am never really interested in losing a land to doom blade, especially after sinking a bunch of mana into it.
Also think that the two mythic MDFCs are worth considering in any 2 color deck. They are usually better than any basic.

I'm not sure trhe G one is a slam dunk at the seven slot, but the B one is a fair point.

[aliciaofthevast]

@Avacyn Believer seemed most interested in this part, I wonder where they're at.

I think we each get one proposed slot to cut and offer a swap for, then we vote. Three yays makes the swap approved. Just one though so you gotta make it count!

For me, I'm proposing to cut ...Treetop Village and to replace it with Phyrexian Tower. I wanted to cut Hive, but it does do something for us while Treetop is a value slot from the days of early commander so I'm less concerned with keeping that.

[Avacyn Believer]

@Avacyn Believer seemed most interested in this part, I wonder where they're at.

Life has been busy is all! Time to catch up.

I'd also like to state how much I hate ravnica bounce lands and don't think Golgari Rot Farm deserves a spot.

Agreed. I don't mind them in colours that can't ramp well, but anytime I played them in decks with green, I feel like they are slowing me down. I'd rather just play more ramp spells.

What do people think of Westvale Abbey // Ormendahl, Profane Prince? Should be easy to transform in this deck.

Definitely would be a yes from me. It's one of those cards I put into every deck that can run it, almost, because there is no downside to it if you only use it as a land that taps for , but also has potential to have some good impact, even if I rarely actually transform the card.

I think Drownyard Temple is a good pick since we can buy it back if we do happen to get an unfortunate mill.

I don't see it. I always like the idea of it but then never end up using it in games, unless I already have tons of mana but at that point it doesn't add much value. Makes me think it's only useful in decks that care about lands, rather than just generic good. Also, more importantly, there is no such thing as unfortunate mill in a graveyard deck imo

And they they tend to get randomly hated out by random Acidic Slimes.

Can't say I ever experienced that. Just shows how different local metas can be.

Overall, as far as lands, I'll keep it simple and just add that personally I wouldn't run as many lands that have to enter tapped. Like with the bounce lands, to me they feel like they slow things down too much so I try not to run too many.

For the deck itself, my first impressions are that it seems to rely a lot on us having creatures to enable other effects. I can't say I have much experience with deck like this, so wouldn't know what small adjustments to suggest to make it better. The build certainly did not go in the direction I thought it would, or would build myself. Learning experience though, so that's good.

[Dunharrow]

that's my feeling too. Way too many lands entering tapped. I don't think our mana is so ambitious that we need so many fixing lands that enter tapped.

[3drinks]

So let's talk about mana then. A lot of the premium untapped lands are pricey, or are rainbows which I believe is not enough to be worth having the nonbasic downside. So I focused on type fetchability, and then lands that enter untapped based on having types available (checks, reveals). Without throwing every fetch in there, because yeah that goes against the premise of this activity, and not wanting to jam city of brass in a 2c deck which is far too lacklustre, what, are you saying to play more basics? I wouldn't slot more colourless non-basics given our pip count is a bit on the high side, even for 2c.

If we want more basics, that's fine, let's map out the nonbasics we have and I'll adjust the basic count.

[Avacyn Believer]

The way I would approach the lands is to look at all lands that come in tapped, and consider what role do they actually have. Lands that can turn into creatures or have some utility for a lot of mana, do we really plan to use those? Something like Westvale Abbey is at least fairly impactful, and sac outlet can come in handy. While something like Treetop Village, having a 3/3 is rarely, if ever, going to make a difference, and it just feels bad to play it tapped in the early game when you want to be playing spells to ramp and get ahead. Easiest solution would be to replace those with basic lands.

As far as lands that have basic land types, like Haunted Mire, do we have enough type specific ramp to make them worthwhile? I get the idea, but in a two colour deck it can be bit of an overkill imo, when a basic Forest would work just as well. This deck doesn't lean too heavily towards either colour, so that makes colour fixing easier I think, just need enough ramp spells to ensure good balance of Forests and Swamps on the field. We don't seem to have Urborg, but even consistently being able to fetch Yavimaya could help a lot.

I could provide more detailed ideas about the lands, but thought I'd do just a generic approach, others seem to have stronger opinions than I do.

[3drinks]

The way I would approach the lands is to look at all lands that come in tapped, and consider what role do they actually have. Lands that can turn into creatures or have some utility for a lot of mana, do we really plan to use those? Something like Westvale Abbey is at least fairly impactful, and sac outlet can come in handy. While something like Treetop Village, having a 3/3 is rarely, if ever, going to make a difference, and it just feels bad to play it tapped in the early game when you want to be playing spells to ramp and get ahead. Easiest solution would be to replace those with basic lands.

As far as lands that have basic land types, like Haunted Mire, do we have enough type specific ramp to make them worthwhile? I get the idea, but in a two colour deck it can be bit of an overkill imo, when a basic Forest would work just as well. This deck doesn't lean too heavily towards either colour, so that makes colour fixing easier I think, just need enough ramp spells to ensure good balance of Forests and Swamps on the field. We don't seem to have Urborg, but even consistently being able to fetch Yavimaya could help a lot.

It's not just the nature's lores, three visits, and skyshroud claim, but it's also the reveal land, check land, there's enough things that care about the type lands. And no I didn't put Urborg because that thing is ~$35. For one land, that's more than some fetches. (And I'm not gonna price comparison random fetchlands just for this project).

I'd value manlands over something overcosted and clunky like westvale abbey but I would concur more basics could be had over them. Maybe even a land like Blighted Woodland, which is reasonable sure. I'm just incredibly underwhelmed by Ormendahl especially as removal gets more and more efficient.

Are you saying we'd cut the fast land because it's too slow after the first couple turns?! We should be on those new slow lands currently in standard (I am also underwhelmed by these).

[Avacyn Believer]

it's also the reveal land, check land, there's enough things that care about the type lands.

See those are the lands I'd also cut The way I see it, to make them work you need to over complicate your land base. It's easier in 3-colour decks because you have tri-lands and more reasons to care about mana fixing than in 2-colours. Especially reveal lands I think are terrible in EDH, unless you have high money budget for lands.

And no I didn't put Urborg because that thing is ~$35. For one land, that's more than some fetches. (And I'm not gonna price comparison random fetchlands just for this project).

That's fair, Urborg is pointless without Cabal Coffers anyway. It's either both or none, imo.

I'd value manlands over something overcosted and clunky like westvale abbey but I would concur more basics could be had over them. Maybe even a land like Blighted Woodland, which is reasonable sure. I'm just incredibly underwhelmed by Ormendahl especially as removal gets more and more efficient.

I am not sure I understand the dislike but fair enough. I used to play with it a lot in Standard when I started with Magic so it is a nostalgic card for me, even if I rarely actually transform it. I don't play it with the aim to turn into Ormendahl but because there is no downside to playing it, to me anyway. Blighted Woodland is not a bad choice, I do like it for decks that can bring lands out of the yard.

Are you saying we'd cut the fast land because it's too slow after the first couple turns?! We should be on those new slow lands currently in standard (I am also underwhelmed by these).

Yes lol I don't think they are worth it in EDH, unless you are playing at high end of power where you need the colour fixing and can't get better options. I think there are just better options for "check" lands, like the ones that care about number of other lands, other basics and land types. Much easier to play around with, and they all work with basics.

I am guessing we just have different approach to lands and that's fair enough. I won't debate the point too much, as long as the land base works, that is all that matter at the end of the day.

[Dunharrow]

I care less about how we make the mana base (do we do dual type lands and check lands and reveal lands or do we do something else), and more about tempo. We have so many lands that enter tapped. I would remove
Oran-Rief, the Vastwood - a bunch of 2/3 spiders aren't that great, especially if we have to hold up two mana to activate. Too slow and unimpactful.
Treetop Village (slow, hardly ever matters)
Lair of the Hydra (how is this better than Westvale Abbey // Ormendahl, Profane Prince?)
I honestly think a bunch of forests would be better. Or Blighted Woodland, love that card.

I like Tainted Wood and Deathcap Glade better than Rot Farm and Snarl.