Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

[toctheyounger]

[mention]POL33TMAN[/mention] Yeah that's a bit rough. I remember having a Narset deck, and it was so hated that I ended up not enjoying playing it either, and just took it apart. Nowadays I'm all about playing a game that equals the level the table is playing at. There's more of a challenge for the player that way, and not necessarily the deck. Makes it less about an arms race or a money wins situation, too. It's not easy when people want to play with the pinnacle of what's available in the format, but either way if it's a game I don't want to play I just won't. If that's your regular meta though, it's a little tough to combat that.

I haven't really seen much grave hate, to be honest. And to be fair, the deck is susceptible to it, so I think the best way to manage it in general is to just not put all of your eggs in one basket and dump all of your critters into the yard. Ulamog would work fine for this if you have a copy. The other option I've used to retain some value from the deck when Bojuka Bog hits the table is to self-exile anything I can't re-use anyway with Varina's last ability for board presence. It's pretty common for me to drop excess lands and redundant spells where it's pertinent, and if you're facing this happening anyway, why not get some value from it?

I guess the other option is to run something like Disallow in your control suite. There's no reason not to if you have a copy, it's great in Dralnu for me.

[POL33TMAN]

Disallow could be a good solution in the control suite - I do have a spare copy so might consider this as an option thanks!

[toctheyounger]

No probs, it's done great things in Dralnu. Kind of covers all cases. I guess you could look at Teferi's Protection too if that suits. Means extra turns.dec can't end the game entirely. Imprisoned in the Moon could be cool, too. I run Song of the Dryads in Nissa, and it's awesome, this is basically a blue version.

[POL33TMAN]

I don't have a spare Teferi's Protection unfortunately

I am running Imprisoned in the moon in the deck already with great success, it has been very effective in other decks I have.

[toctheyounger]

I should really track down a couple of copies of that, it's pretty decent tech. Can't blame you for not having Teferi's Protection though, that thing is stupid expensive.

[yeti1069]

I've been playing with 3 counterspells in my deck, and feel that they are absolutely needed. That said, I'm not a fan of double blue mana costs, since the deck is so heavily black, so I've been running Arcane Denial, Delay, and Swan Song. I would consider Stubborn Denial as well, but I don't have Varina (or another 4 power) on the table consistently the way I do in Marchesa. Generally, I hold them to stop a game winning spell, something that dramatically messes with this deck's plan, or to protect my winning turn. I don't care too much about most removal, since we can recover, and there are few pieces of the deck that are important enough to protect to blow a counter on, unless the gamestate needs it.

I have won through a resolved Elesh Norn thanks to having enough lords in play.

Grave hate hurts, but I try not to dump too much value in there unless I'm ready to use it.

[yeti1069]

Teferi's Protection is a nice catch-all. May be worth running, but 3 mana is a lot to keep up. Even 1 or 2 for a counterspell is tough with this deck, since it almost always has ways to spend mana.

[toctheyounger]

I've been playing with 3 counterspells in my deck, and feel that they are absolutely needed. That said, I'm not a fan of double blue mana costs, since the deck is so heavily black, so I've been running Arcane Denial, Delay, and Swan Song. I would consider Stubborn Denial as well, but I don't have Varina (or another 4 power) on the table consistently the way I do in Marchesa. Generally, I hold them to stop a game winning spell, something that dramatically messes with this deck's plan, or to protect my winning turn. I don't care too much about most removal, since we can recover, and there are few pieces of the deck that are important enough to protect to blow a counter on, unless the gamestate needs it.

I have won through a resolved Elesh Norn thanks to having enough lords in play.

Grave hate hurts, but I try not to dump too much value in there unless I'm ready to use it.

Pretty much all of this. I'm definitely going to look into adding some counters. I've always loved Arcane, so it's an easy add. I don't have a spare Swan or Delay, so it'll likely be the OG I add in addition. I'm less worried about the double blue, but testing will tell. I guess Disdainful Stroke or Stubborn Denial could be fine too. As far as Teferi's Protection goes, it could be useful, but yeah, mana is tight and I'm not entirely certain it's really necessary.

I've got to add some lords - Undead and Warchief are my next targets, but they are expensive for what they do, purely on account of limited print runs. My LGS doesn't immediately have them either which is frustrating. I think it'll be worth the cost though, if for nothing else just to boost my creature count, as I've found it a little low recently.

Re grave hate - 100% agree. I try not to lean into it too much unless I can exploit it straight away or very shortly. Even then leaving a little mana open for Havengul Lich to save key pieces or Varina to make some tokens is a good idea. As long as it's not a total loss you're doing alright - there not many decks that can make lemonade out of lemons so being able to is definitely something worth exploiting when we need to.

[POL33TMAN]

[mention]toctheyounger[/mention] How do you feel about Teferi's Veil in the deck? I added a copy to my deck however have not had the chance to see it in action yet (hoping to get some games in next weekend). I can see it working as a protection piece for my attackers and also a combo piece for Tombstone Stairwell

Mind you I've never seen the card in action so I have no knowledge of the performance of this card. Would like to know your thoughts though

[toctheyounger]

What a weird card. I can see how it'd do some work. I'm not 100% sure how it interacts with tokens, my suspicion is they disappear when phased. But otherwise it seems like it could be reasonable. I think it's up against stiff competition in Reconnaissance for this sort of effect though, and I suspect the latter is probably a little more efficient.

[POL33TMAN]

I checked the rules on phasing and they were updated after Commander 2017 (when Teferi's Protection was released) so that tokens now continue to exist when phased out.

702.25d The phasing event doesn't actually cause a permanent to change zones or control, even though it's treated as though it's not on the battlefield and not under its controller's control while it's phased out. Zone-change triggers don't trigger when a permanent phases in or out. Tokens continue to exist on the battlefield while phased out. Counters remain on a permanent while it's phased out. Effects that check a phased-in permanent's history won't treat the phasing event as having caused the permanent to leave or enter the battlefield or its controller's control.

[boer0829]

Hello, longtime lurker of this thread ever since the thread started on MTGsalvation. This thread is a great inspiration for me!

I just build this deck yesterday and going to play it tonight for the first time! I packed a lot of catch all removal with Despark, Generous Gift, Anguished Unmaking, Vindicate, Utter End, Mortify and Return to Dust. It's the first draft of the deck so my expectations arent that high, just testing how it plays

Don't think Teferi's Veil will save your dudes from lethal damage like Reconaissance does. The Gatherer says:

''Rulings 1-4-2008 The "at end of combat" ability triggers after combat damage resolves. Creatures dealt lethal damage in combat won't be saved this way.''

Also your creatures return at the beginning of your untap step with phasing, leave you with an empty board the whole time until your next turn. That may become handy when someone plays a wrath.

The interaction with Tombstone Stairwell is cute Dont know if I want it to use it this way because it shuts down my Diregraf Captain, Undead Augur and other LTB effects.

[POL33TMAN]

[mention]boer0829[/mention] Totally agree with you! I think Reconaissance is definitely the preferable option of the 2.

I just noticed that I hadn't added Generous Gift yet, so I will switch it out for that!

[POL33TMAN]

I've had 4 games with the deck so far with 2 wins 2 losses. All 4 games had only 3 players and were in my regular meta.

The first 2 games I lost were against a fairly tuned and higher level Marchesa, the Black Rose deck and a new Karador, Ghost Chieftain deck. The Marchesa deck just overwhelmed us with its ETB effects in both games and we were unfortunately not able to stop it effectively.

In the second 2 games I was vs a new Brion Stoutarm deck and a new Meren of Clan Nel Toth deck I cant really remember too much about these games but I was able to win one with aristocrat and combat damage and the second game I won using Vizkopa Guildmage second ability (I put it on the stack twice) where my opponents both lost 24 life a piece for the win.

[Supersprite]

Artifact (10)
1 Alhammarret's Archive
1 Dimir Signet
1 Eldrazi Monument
1 Jet Medallion
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Orzhov Signet
1 Phyrexian Altar
1 Sol Ring
1 Talisman of Dominance
1 Talisman of Hierarchy

Creature (34)
1 Apprentice Necromancer
1 Balthor the Defiled
1 Carrion Feeder
1 Cemetery Reaper
1 Coffin Queen
1 Corpse Harvester
1 Cryptbreaker
1 Death Baron
1 Diregraf Colossus
1 God-Eternal Bontu
1 Grave Titan
1 Graveborn Muse
1 Gravecrawler
1 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
1 Lazotep Reaver
1 Liliana's Reaver
1 Lord of the Accursed
1 Lord of the Undead
1 Midnight Reaper
1 Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
1 Noxious Ghoul
1 Plague Belcher
1 Plaguebearer
1 Shepherd of Rot
1 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
1 Skirk Ridge Exhumer
1 Undead Augur
1 Undead Warchief
1 Vengeful Pharaoh
1 Zombie Master
1 Corpse Knight
1 Diregraf Captain
1 Varina, Lich Queen
1 Wayward Servant

Enchantment (5)
1 Contamination
1 Necromancer's Stockpile
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Rhystic Study
1 Land Tax
Sorcery (9)
1 Dark Salvation
1 Kindred Dominance
1 Living Death
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Victimize
1 Zombie Apocalypse
1 Windfall
1 Approach of the Second Sun
1 Vindicate

Instant (5)
1 Entomb
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Anguished Unmaking
1 Despark
1 Utter End

Land (37)
1 Arcane Sanctum
1 Caves of Koilos
1 City of Brass
1 Command Tower
1 Concealed Courtyard
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Fetid Heath
1 Godless Shrine
2 Island
1 Isolated Chapel
3 Plains
1 Silent Clearing
1 Sunken Hollow
15 Swamp
1 Tainted Field
1 Tainted Isle
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Underground River
1 Watery Grave

This is my deck, sttrong emphasis on black and lots of zombies because this is what triggers varina. I tried a low cmc creature base. Notable cards: bontu (crazy good to sac some tokens for draws) balthor (7mana zombie apocalyps why not ?) Vengeful pharaoh (everything jou wist risen excecutioner was)

Havengul lich and the Scarab God both suck in varina, the are cool on paper but they are just klunky and slow. Same for ghoul caller vista, wich i would love to play. But i prefer speed. Did ad the corpse harvester zombie because altough its expansieve at 5 mana its a way 2 find your win con and a land, in theory- when the drawing starts ittll work out qithout tutors. But i like it.

Contamination is gold. Sac a critter a turn to mana denial everyone? With a deck that easily pumps out tokens.. with a general that reads 2: make a token. Gold i tell ya.

[boer0829]

[mention]Supersprite[/mention] : Nice list! I also play alot of low cmc creatures. Played my first two games with the deck yesterday and dropping 2 zombies before Varina comes into play is just gravy.

Does Contamination alot of work for you? I'm afraid it will affect us also since we play a 3 colored mana base.

The Scarab God does seem like a good inclusion. 5 mana isn't that bad and the leeching+scrying+token making just seems too good. Can imagine Havengul Lich is a bit too expensive since creatures will cost one mana more.

Decklist

DecklistCMCManaPricesChartsDraw 7

Commander

1 Varina, Lich Queen

Creatures

1 Cryptbreaker

1 Carrion Feeder

1 Gravecrawler

2 Wayward Servant

2 Undead Augur

2 Binding Mummy

2 Corpse Knight

2 Shepherd of Rot

3 Lord of the Accursed

3 Midnight Reaper

3 Zombie Master

3 Diregraf Colossus

3 Death Baron

3 Diregraf Captain

3 Lord of the Undead

3 Vizier of the Scorpion

3 Plague Belcher

3 Cemetery Reaper

4 Vindictive Lich

4 Wonder

4 Agent of Erebos

4 Undead Warchief

4 Graveborn Muse

4 Vengeful Death

5 God-Eternal Oketra

5 Havengul Lich

5 Archfiend of Ifnir

5 Noxious Ghoul

5 Phyrexian Delver

5 Gray Merchant of Asphodel

5 Ghoulcaller Gisa

6 Grave Titan

6 Mikaeus, the Unhallowed

Instants

2 Despark

3 Mortify

3 Generous Gift

3 Anguished Unmaking

4 Utter End

4 Return to Dust

Sorceries

3 Vindicate

4 Day of Judgment

5 Living Death

6 Zombie Apocalypse

8 Decree of Pain

Artifacts

1 Library of Leng

1 Sol Ring

1 Skullclamp

2 Fellwar Stone

2 Talisman of Hierarchy

2 Talisman of Progress

2 Coldsteel Heart

3 Worn Powerstone

3 Commander's Sphere

3 Chromatic Lantern

5 Alhammarret's Archive

Echantments

1 Phyrexian Reclamation

3 Rhystic Study

3 Dark Prophecy

4 Tombstone Stairwell

4 Endless Ranks of the Dead

4 Smothering Tithe

5 Kindred Discovery

Lands

1 Command Tower

1 Phyrexian Tower

1 Tectonic Edge

1 Ghost Quarter

1 Volrath's Stronghold

1 Hight Market

1 Arcane Sanctum

1 Kor Haven

1 Evolving Wilds

1 Terramorphic Expanse

1 Flooded Strand

1 Tundra

1 Underground Sea

1 Scrubland

1 Hallowed Fountain

1 Godless Shrine

1 Watery Grave

1 Isolated Chapel

1 Tainted Isle

1 Dismal Backwater

1 Jwar Isle Refuge

1 Sunken Hollow

1 River of Tears

1 Nimbus Maze

4 Plains

4 Island

4 Swamp

Approximate Total Cost:

Played 2 games with the deck in a 3 man pod yesterday. I won 1 game with Varina. MVPGray Merchant of Asphodel and Living Death, making me want to add Balthor the Defiled and Patriarch's Bidding. Also cheap drop followed by a lord and then Varina is a nice play
Kindred Discovery made a huge impact on the board but it is a tad expensive. Also Alhammarret's Archive is a bit expensive.
Did play Smothering Tithe, the extra ramp is just bonkers. Thinking to add Black Market and Carnival of Souls. Also I find the deck is mana hungry so I think those are a good addition.
Did discard a few cards that I wanted to play but had better options, like Tombstone Stairwell So I want to play some cards that let me return Enchantments, Instants and Sorceries. Thinking about Recall and Hall of Heliod's Genorisity
The 3cmc mana rocks are too expensive, but I find ramp very important. Maybe cutting the lantern and the sphere

[toctheyounger]

-snip-
This is my deck, sttrong emphasis on black and lots of zombies because this is what triggers varina. I tried a low cmc creature base. Notable cards: bontu (crazy good to sac some tokens for draws) balthor (7mana zombie apocalyps why not ?) Vengeful pharaoh (everything jou wist risen excecutioner was)

Havengul lich and the Scarab God both suck in varina, the are cool on paper but they are just klunky and slow. Same for ghoul caller vista, wich i would love to play. But i prefer speed. Did ad the corpse harvester zombie because altough its expansieve at 5 mana its a way 2 find your win con and a land, in theory- when the drawing starts ittll work out qithout tutors. But i like it.

Contamination is gold. Sac a critter a turn to mana denial everyone? With a deck that easily pumps out tokens.. with a general that reads 2: make a token. Gold i tell ya.

I'd expect nothing less from Contamination - it's a strong control option if you can afford it. I run the budget friendly version, but I haven't seen it yet to see how it impacts my colour fixing. Personally, I've had strong results from The Scarab God. It's hard to get rid of, has it's own bleeder effect, library manipulation (actually sort of surprising you don't like it considering you run Approach of the Second Sun), and it makes armies. Sure, it can be expensive, but being able to make a Reclamation Sage or a Wurmcoil Engine and grave hate the same is great value. Havengul Lich I haven't seen recently, but...yeah, it's expensive. I'm still on the fence about it until I get some more game play in and possibly track down a few more tribal lords.

How have you found Apprentice Necromancer by the way? I've been tossing up adding it in, just wondering if it's worth the slot.

@Supersprite : Nice list! I also play alot of low cmc creatures. Played my first two games with the deck yesterday and dropping 2 zombies before Varina comes into play is just gravy.

Does Contamination alot of work for you? I'm afraid it will affect us also since we play a 3 colored mana base.

The Scarab God does seem like a good inclusion. 5 mana isn't that bad and the leeching+scrying+token making just seems too good. Can imagine Havengul Lich is a bit too expensive since creatures will cost one mana more.

Played 2 games with the deck in a 3 man pod yesterday. I won 1 game with Varina. MVPGray Merchant of Asphodel and Living Death, making me want to add Balthor the Defiled and Patriarch's Bidding. Also cheap drop followed by a lord and then Varina is a nice play
Kindred Discovery made a huge impact on the board but it is a tad expensive. Also Alhammarret's Archive is a bit expensive.
Did play Smothering Tithe, the extra ramp is just bonkers. Thinking to add Black Market and Carnival of Souls. Also I find the deck is mana hungry so I think those are a good addition.
Did discard a few cards that I wanted to play but had better options, like Tombstone Stairwell So I want to play some cards that let me return Enchantments, Instants and Sorceries. Thinking about Recall and Hall of Heliod's Genorisity
The 3cmc mana rocks are too expensive, but I find ramp very important. Maybe cutting the lantern and the sphere

This is a nice list, too. Couple of cards I want to query - how have Phyrexian Reclamation and Wonder worked for you? Wonder seems like a solid add, could legitimately win games with combat super easily. I also wonder how Library of Leng has worked out for you - I had it in the list for a while, but it was a little lackluster for me. I found that with Varina's trigger I was always tossing the worst option in my hand anyway, so seeing that then on top wasn't allowing me to dig for what I actually wanted to see, if that makes sense.

In terms of Black Market I'm personally not a fan. For 3bb you get an enchantment that gives you mana once per turn pre-combat during main phase, contingent on creatures dying. It's pretty niche, and without a lot of ways to sac your critters or make lots of other creatures dies, when it flops it really flops. Not only that, even if you do get a ton of counters on it, all it takes is a Krosan Grip for you to lose all of your hard work. By comparison, Carnival of Souls I can sort of see doing good work for a low cost. We've got enough lifegain here to mitigate the loss, and our curve is generally low enough for us to play out some pretty decent advantage - we can even use it at instant speed with Varina if needed..

[Supersprite]

Why would you play carnival of souls? Isnt a jet medallion better of your planning on playing a lot of spells?

Also @boer (nederlands?) Endless ranks is so slow, it only works when your deck works but if your engine runs you dont need it!

Apprentice necromancer is good. Not special good but its a 1b zombie wich is ok if considering what it can potentially do, return a good a zombie to go off with it. Get back a fattie like grave titan (why the hell wouldnt you play grave titan?) Or god eternal bontu drawing a ton.

But on grave titan.. 6/6 + 2 tokens for 4bb. Attack grt another 2 tokens. Isnt this what we want? Deatouch sweet too. I know whe should consider the cmc of the zombies but grave titan is just wonderfoul. Could potentially be a infinite combo with ashnods altar and nim deathmantle. At the moment i only play phyrexian altar because its infinite with gravecrawler and etb effects. Many options.

Also dont you ever compare alhammerrets archive to black market. You suppose to play alhammerets with zombies and varina in play. If you attack with like 3 zombies itll draw you 6 discard 3 and gain 6 life- thats decent. Black market.. want creatures to die. Does it belong here? Im not sure.

Anyone tried retribution of the meek? 2w destroy all power 4 plus creatures. I just threw in a toxic deluge, hits my own board too, but im just very scared of fast small pesky elves and stuff.

A card that currently isnt in my deck but im trying to find a place for the 1bb spell that turns all opponents creatures in 0/2 creatures ueot. Our zombies are at least 2/2 and want to attack. Very fun to kill of blockers with this tech

[Supersprite]

Just realise ashnods altar should be in here too. Sac a zombie get 2 mana make a zombie with varina for 2 sac it for 2 etc etc etc. Thats easy to go wild!

[boer0829]

This is a nice list, too. Couple of cards I want to query - how have Phyrexian Reclamation and Wonder worked for you? Wonder seems like a solid add, could legitimately win games with combat super easily. I also wonder how Library of Leng has worked out for you - I had it in the list for a while, but it was a little lackluster for me. I found that with Varina's trigger I was always tossing the worst option in my hand anyway, so seeing that then on top wasn't allowing me to dig for what I actually wanted to see, if that makes sense.

In terms of Black Market I'm personally not a fan. For you get an enchantment that gives you mana once per turn pre-combat during main phase, contingent on creatures dying. It's pretty niche, and without a lot of ways to sac your critters or make lots of other creatures dies, when it flops it really flops. Not only that, even if you do get a ton of counters on it, all it takes is a Krosan Grip for you to lose all of your hard work. By comparison, Carnival of Souls I can sort of see doing good work for a low cost. We've got enough lifegain here to mitigate the loss, and our curve is generally low enough for us to play out some pretty decent advantage - we can even use it at instant speed with Varina if needed..

Did toss Library of Leng in both games I played the deck. Might end up making the same conclusion you did.
Phyrexian Reclamation is a personal staple of mine. I put it in every deck that plays black and I alway return a couple of creatures with it to my hand. Most of the time my opponents don't destroy it thus giving me alot of advantage.
Wonder is great! Had it both matches in my graveyard giving my creatures evasion. Combining with a lord and we have 3/3 flying zombies. (also I have a chinese foil that I want to play)
About Black Market, I see why you are not a fan of it. Not able to use the mana as instant speed is a disadvantage and the requirement that it needs creatures to die is also something to think about. Also the manacost is pretty steep. On the otherside, the market on the field with a cluttered board followed by a Damnation or something gives a ton of counters to do crazy stuff with. It is a card that I want to test. Carnival of Souls wants a steady stream of creatures entering the battlefield, I think it works a bit differently than the Market that wants creatures to die.

Why would you play carnival of souls? Isnt a jet medallion better of your planning on playing a lot of spells?

Carnival of Souls also works with tokens, which might make it interesting with Tombstone Stairwell. With normal black creatures and spells you better play the medallion.

Also @boer (nederlands?) Endless ranks is so slow, it only works when your deck works but if your engine runs you dont need it!

Yes Nederlands Agree the ranks seems slow. Never had it in play yet and I discarded the card in the two matches I played the deck. Time will tell whether I cut the card.

Also dont you ever compare alhammerrets archive to black market. You suppose to play alhammerets with zombies and varina in play. If you attack with like 3 zombies itll draw you 6 discard 3 and gain 6 life- thats decent. Black market.. want creatures to die. Does it belong here? Im not sure.

Didn't compare the Archive with the Market. Compared it with Kindred Discovery Both are cool

Anyone tried retribution of the meek? 2w destroy all power 4 plus creatures. I just threw in a toxic deluge, hits my own board too, but im just very scared of fast small pesky elves and stuff.

Seems like a decent sweeper for zombies. But it hits Varina, Lich Queen. On the other hand, most of your board survives.

A card that currently isnt in my deck but im trying to find a place for the 1bb spell that turns all opponents creatures in 0/2 creatures ueot. Our zombies are at least 2/2 and want to attack. Very fun to kill of blockers with this tech

Sudden Spoiling? Yes that would be hilarious :D

Just realise ashnods altar should be in here too. Sac a zombie get 2 mana make a zombie with varina for 2 sac it for 2 etc etc etc. Thats easy to go wild!

This is genious, I will put mine in the deck (combine with Black Market and Carnival of Souls for maximum power!)

[toctheyounger]

Apprentice necromancer is good. Not special good but its a 1b zombie wich is ok if considering what it can potentially do, return a good a zombie to go off with it. Get back a fattie like grave titan (why the hell wouldnt you play grave titan?) Or god eternal bontu drawing a ton.

Might give it a go, then. It's effect is slow, but it's an early drop so there's that. If Phyrexian Delver were slightly cheaper to cast I'd prefer that, purely because it adds to your board rather than replacing itself. As for Grave Titan, my issue is that my 5-6 slots are really, really full, which is a big problem when the mana production is as lean as it is here. It's good value, sure. There's plenty of other value at the same place in the curve though. I also only have one copy, and it's currently in use. That being said, I am looking for an excuse to take Havengul Lich out. I think I'd prefer Phyrexian Delver as mentioned above though.

Anyone tried retribution of the meek? 2w destroy all power 4 plus creatures. I just threw in a toxic deluge, hits my own board too, but im just very scared of fast small pesky elves and stuff.

Yeah, I did want to try it out here. It's really picked up in price since I last had a copy though, so I picked up Citywide Bust instead. It's been decent. I think either would be fine, they're mostly comparable.

About Black Market, I see why you are not a fan of it. Not able to use the mana as instant speed is a disadvantage and the requirement that it needs creatures to die is also something to think about. Also the manacost is pretty steep. On the otherside, the market on the field with a cluttered board followed by a Damnation or something gives a ton of counters to do crazy stuff with. It is a card that I want to test. Carnival of Souls wants a steady stream of creatures entering the battlefield, I think it works a bit differently than the Market that wants creatures to die.

Yeah. Like, I get how explosive Market can be, but it's just SUCH a glass cannon. Say the board gets wiped, you get a ton of charge counters, then Return to Dust happens. Or Cyclonic Rift, Reclamation Sage, Krosan Grip, Beast Within or even something as corner case as Aether Snap. You're 3bb down with no board. It just puts all of your eggs in one basket in a way I don't personally think is worth it, and it pales in comparison to Smothering Tithe. The times it goes nuts do not mitigate the times it doesn't do enough, and that's what made me pull it out. Carnival of Souls I think COULD be good, but it really probably needs to be in a swarm-dedicated build. I'm sure it probably goes close to infinite with Gravecrawler for death triggers. (Wayward Servant, Carrion Feeder, Carnival of Souls and Gravecrawler? Janky but will end the game regardless), but I think otherwise it'd be decent with mass zombie production for explosive turns. You'd probably just need a way to mitigate the life loss, or make the mana count towards a win.

[Supersprite]

Bru.. carnival triggers on other players creatures too. Elves? Your dead. Tokens? Your dead. Its far too risky!

But who am i too say?
I am eyeing another combo finisher wich will replace rise of the second sun. Its kind of a gamble too. Will test it and report back to yall.

[toctheyounger]

Bru.. carnival triggers on other players creatures too. Elves? Your dead. Tokens? Your dead. Its far too risky!

But who am i too say?
I am eyeing another combo finisher wich will replace rise of the second sun. Its kind of a gamble too. Will test it and report back to yall.

I hadn't thought about that. Without an instant speed black mana sink to end the game you're done in. Miss me with that.

Let us know what you have when you have a chance! I think Approach is pretty feasible myself, but there's plenty of other combo options. Rooftop Storm is an obvious one, and Aetherflux Reservoir is pretty solid too.

[Supersprite]

Well morality shift seems crazy risky but on par with theme. It enables a few instant kills;

Varina+ashnods altar+wayward servant/corpse knight/plague belcher play ms win
Or
Morality shift+balthor/living dead/zombie apocalypse = win, with gray merchant and such

But it should win at the spot or die trough draws at upkeep

[toctheyounger]

Well morality shift seems crazy risky but on par with theme. It enables a few instant kills;

Varina+ashnods altar+wayward servant/corpse knight/plague belcher play ms win
Or
Morality shift+balthor/living dead/zombie apocalypse = win, with gray merchant and such

But it should win at the spot or die trough draws at upkeep

I'm not sure how it works out with method #1 - because your graveyard/library never enters play I can't see how they trigger the aristocrats.

That second method definitely would work - if it doesn't outright win the game it'd get pretty close. Damn risky though!