Wizards breaks ties with Terese Nielsen

[drmarkb]

Pretty distasteful conspiracy stuff she has sympathy for by the looks but then again as I mentioned above, the left in my country, which would be supported by many of the pro banners, is riddled with anti semites, some of whom peddle the same myths of conspiracy. Socialists in some parts of Europe have a huge issue with Israel, and have allied themselves with some real anti semites, up to and including holocaust deniers. The far right exist too, but mercifully in the UK, are really fringe at the ballot box, although a presence in some European countries. Notable that it is her liking stuff rather than explicitly stating these things herself.

I suspect it is the TERF thing that has got her the ban more than anything having read stuff. Entering that debate is toxic here, unless you are already on the centre or right of politics.
Frankly radical feminists vs trans lobby is like watching killer shark vs killer whale, the former being treated to the same tactics they themselves used for decades and the whole thing a bloodbath. The interesting thing again, in my country at least, is that both belong to the same political tribe historically.
Mtg players have a high percentage of trans players, but I suspect mtg players as a whole are spread out over the demographics politically, younger players being more left being more numerous and older ones being more right, but most reflect their country's version of right and left. The right of the UK is pro choice, anti gun, for example. We have not got to the point where there are 70 year old players, but in twenty years there will be and that will be a more rounded audience politically.

[robertleva]

The feminist vs trans issue get ZERO press coverage in the US. Feminist voices have been quite effectively suppressed. All the years of fighting for pro-female legislation gets torn down in a blink of an eye. As it turns out, if men want to take away female opportunities all they need to do is claim to be women. Then the law will protect them while they win gold medals in female sports, take female scholarships and use up grant money dogeared for female start up businesses.

Does it matter that feminists see them as biological men dressed up like or surgically altered to appear like women? Nope. Men squashed the feminist movement in the end by deleting what it means to be a woman.

[Krishnath]

The feminist vs trans issue get ZERO press coverage in the US. Feminist voices have been quite effectively suppressed. All the years of fighting for pro-female legislation gets torn down in a blink of an eye. As it turns out, if men want to take away female opportunities all they need to do is claim to be women. Then the law will protect them while they win gold medals in female sports, take female scholarships and use up grant money dogeared for female start up businesses.

Does it matter that feminists see them as biological men dressed up like or surgically altered to appear like women? Nope. Men squashed the feminist movement in the end by deleting what it means to be a woman.

Hyperbole much? Do you want to know who is suppressing feminist issues and women's rights? All you have to do is look to your dear orange leader, his cronies, and the republican party. Who are actively engaging in trying to remove women's rights by, among other things, suppressing a woman's right to an abortion. Something that incidentally has been enshrined in law since Roe vs. Wade. Oh, and incidentally, if you actually read any actual news sites insteada of Fox "News" and other right wing propaganda channels you'd know that women's rights are covered extensively. Particularly every time the Republican party further tries to erode them. You think you are clever in spewing right wing rhetoric, but ultimately, Jon Snow, you know nothing.

[RxPhantom]

The more they distance themselves from artists the more customers they end up losing which means less sales except for whales who profit off of their original artwork which leads to Wizards of the Coast releasing reprints of cards with worse artwork than the originals that they might not be able to sell but then again beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

How do you figure they'll lose customers? When companies do this kind of stuff, it means they've already crunched the numbers, and it makes more business sense to cut ties with people or entities that are deemed toxic or exclusionary. So if you want to leave over this, you're free to do so, but don't delude yourself into thinking the game is in any kind of trouble because of it.

Still though, I really like Terese's art and I'm disappointed we won't be seeing any more of her work in the game.

People can cry persecution or say it's a violation of free speech, but that doesn't apply since the government's not involved. If you hold views that assign other humans lower values than others, then be prepared for the professional and personal consequences of being truly, truly awful.

[Krishnath]

People can cry persecution or say it's a violation of free speech, but that doesn't apply since the government's not involved. If you hold views that assign other humans lower values than others, then be prepared for the professional and personal consequences of being truly, truly awful.

Finally someone who understands what Freedom of Speech actually entails. Most people who tout it have no idea.

[Ryder]

No, being a Terf and far right sympathizer does that.

I don't know which is more ridiculous, lumping lesbians and transsexuals together or stating that far right is worse than far left.

[Krishnath]

No, being a Terf and far right sympathizer does that.

I don't know which is more ridiculous, lumping lesbians and transsexuals together or stating that far right is worse than far left.

Well, one literally would want to kill me for being 1/8th Romani and mentally ill, the other would not.

[AvalonAurora]

Well, one literally would want to kill me for being 1/8th Romani and mentally ill, the other would not.

Depends on what country you live in. I'm pretty sure in parts of Europe both the far right and the far left would probably be eager to kill the Romani, if for different reasons.

And significant chunks of the far left would want to see the mentally ill effectively imprisoned for life with little to no chance of getting out and living a relatively normal life unless they are 'cured', institutionalized for their own good supposedly, with little care about how unfeasible it is to get institutionalized care to actually treat the mentally ill well in any reliable fashion, especially on the kinds of budgets and incentives that communism involves.

Prejudiced types being kicked out of the left is a historically recent phenomenon that is mostly focused around the US and cultures linked to it.

Generally speaking, prejudice holds little to do with standard political stances, and it's more often that prejudiced types will align themselves with whatever political groups will pander to their prejudices and enable them to blame everything wrong on their perceived enemies. The Dixiecrats shifted from Democrat to Republican shockingly fast, historically speaking, as soon as the Democrats pushed for civil rights and the Republicans embraced the Southern Strategy. Of course, the Dixiecrats basically ate the much smaller Republican party of the time alive from the inside, and the effects of such became more obvious as time wore on.

The Democrats becoming more reliably anti-prejudiced, rather than just anti-racist, is also a VERY recent phenomenon, that only happened part-way through the Obama years.

[Krishnath]

Depends on what country you live in. I'm pretty sure in parts of Europe both the far right and the far left would probably be eager to kill the Romani, if for different reasons.

Europe, Asia, the America's, Australasia... And it is a defining trait of the Far Right. They hate everyone who is not like them and want to kill them. They started a literal world war over it.

[Ryder]

I live in the EU. Here it's the far left who want to kill people, especially those who can't fend for themselves.

[AvalonAurora]

Depends on what country you live in. I'm pretty sure in parts of Europe both the far right and the far left would probably be eager to kill the Romani, if for different reasons.

Europe, Asia, the America's, Australasia... And it is a defining trait of the Far Right. They hate everyone who is not like them and want to kill them. They started a literal world war over it.

No, it's not. Plus, Communism is far left, and has killed plenty of people, and in the US, the Southern States were the Democrats back in the day, they only switched sides to the right when the right pandered to their racist sensibilities.

I'll put it more clearly, prejudiced people generally don't have truly deeply held political philosophies, they'll side with whichever politicians enable them to attack those they hate/fear, regardless of right or left. It isn't consistent if right or left is the side that rejects them. In the US civil war, it was the right that rejected them, and then afterwards, as the party shrunk, particularly due to their economic policies being bad for industrialized economies, the right embraced the prejudiced types in the US just as the left started rejecting them for the sake of the civil rights movement. Then the prejudiced types shifted sides in shockingly short amounts of time, making it clear they didn't really have underlying left wing perspectives, but Trump taking over the Republican party has made it clear that the prejudiced types that took over the party don't really have right wing perspectives either with many of Trump's policies and perspectives.

The Communists also rose to power by embracing prejudiced factions in many countries as well, and wiped out a ton of people over such prejudices. This wasn't all that different from how the authoritarian far right in WWII era Germany embraced the anti-Semites.

The bulk of prejudiced people, from my perspective, simply aren't smart enough to actually understand or care about political policy besides needing to blame those they are prejudiced against for everything bad. They'll tie themselves to whatever political factions fall low enough ethically and morally to court them.

[robertleva]

Depends on what country you live in. I'm pretty sure in parts of Europe both the far right and the far left would probably be eager to kill the Romani, if for different reasons.

Europe, Asia, the America's, Australasia... And it is a defining trait of the Far Right. They hate everyone who is not like them and want to kill them. They started a literal world war over it.

No, it's not. Plus, Communism is far left, and has killed plenty of people, and in the US, the Southern States were the Democrats back in the day, they only switched sides to the right when the right pandered to their racist sensibilities.

I'll put it more clearly, prejudiced people generally don't have truly deeply held political philosophies, they'll side with whichever politicians enable them to attack those they hate/fear, regardless of right or left. It isn't consistent if right or left is the side that rejects them. In the US civil war, it was the right that rejected them, and then afterwards, as the party shrunk, particularly due to their economic policies being bad for industrialized economies, the right embraced the prejudiced types in the US just as the left started rejecting them for the sake of the civil rights movement. Then the prejudiced types shifted sides in shockingly short amounts of time, making it clear they didn't really have underlying left wing perspectives, but Trump taking over the Republican party has made it clear that the prejudiced types that took over the party don't really have right wing perspectives either with many of Trump's policies and perspectives.

The Communists also rose to power by embracing prejudiced factions in many countries as well, and wiped out a ton of people over such prejudices. This wasn't all that different from how the authoritarian far right in WWII era Germany embraced the anti-Semites.

The bulk of prejudiced people, from my perspective, simply aren't smart enough to actually understand or care about political policy besides needing to blame those they are prejudiced against for everything bad. They'll tie themselves to whatever political factions fall low enough ethically and morally to court them.

The "bulk of prejudiced people" you refer to make up less than 1% of our society. But who gives a %$#% about that? Let's burn the whole damn thing down because of those pieces of garbage. Sorry, I don't buy it. It's just a flimsy excuse to justify injustice and we see right though it.

[drmarkb]

No, being a Terf and far right sympathizer does that.

I don't know which is more ridiculous, lumping lesbians and transsexuals together or stating that far right is worse than far left.

Well, one literally would want to kill me for being 1/8th Romani and mentally ill, the other would not.

Seriously?

Ever heard of Pol Pot? Executed middle classes. All of them.Hell people who wore glasses were executed and dumped like garbage. I will repeat that. Wearing glasses.

Total genocide. Pretty sure he would have found a reason to exterminate you,me and everyone else on the thread. Having a degree or education was enough, everyone who was not an agrarian peasant or a fighter. I don't think you were thinking at all about this statement. Or perhaps the fact it was in another place is an excuse, but forget the oft quoted and technically correct t' Stalin killed more than Hitler', Pol Pot was absolutely the most terrifying, genocidal scumbag in the 20th C,and he was on the far left. Man's inhumanity to man can be summed up in that revolution. He made people equal by mass extermination of those who did not conform to his ideal peasant led agrarian society. The goal was equality, the means execution. He made Stalin look like Father Christmas. Please don't assume that far left is somehow better than far right, the 20th C showed just how murderous both can be.
Extremism needs enemies, and from the French revolution to the killing fields, they found them as sure as fascists did.

[AvalonAurora]

The "bulk of prejudiced people" you refer to make up less than 1% of our society. But who gives a %$#% about that? Let's burn the whole damn thing down because of those pieces of garbage. Sorry, I don't buy it. It's just a flimsy excuse to justify injustice and we see right though it.

The polling I've seen doesn't seem to show much chance of prejudiced people being less than 30% of the population, based on percentages of how people answer on polls that make prejudices clear. The exact numbers seems to vary by region and polling methods and exact wording of questions, but I don't think I've seen it go below 30% in larger samples that don't exclude rural areas and focus on cities (cities tend to be less prejudiced, due to increased contact with greater diversity of people). They wouldn't be a significant enough voting block to matter otherwise, and the evidence has borne out pretty well in how they affect elections and wars and stuff. There tend to be more people _against_ them, but those people aren't as well organized all the time, especially since they are more likely to come from lots of different groups.

The people against prejudice tend to be more likely to engage in boycotts and the like as well, which has forced many businesses to appease them, especially since those businesses often also want customers among those who the prejudiced types are particularly against, as those groups combined, even if targets of different sorts of prejudices (sex, race, religion, etc.) tend to be larger than the prejudiced people as a group.

[Simto]

Utterly utterly ridiculous.

[robertleva]

Utterly utterly ridiculous.

RIP everything.

[blkdemonight]

I have no idea why people throw a random term such as TERF. Whenever a conversation involves someone like Terese Nielsen. All I know is that I'm tired of hearing about real life witch hunts in a card game about Wizards slinging spells.

[blkdemonight]

People can cry persecution or say it's a violation of free speech, but that doesn't apply since the government's not involved. If you hold views that assign other humans lower values than others, then be prepared for the professional and personal consequences of being truly, truly awful.

Finally someone who understands what Freedom of Speech actually entails. Most people who tout it have no idea.

This is the crux right with politics now that the federal government under Trump wants dismantle monopoly like Google currently is with advertising. Is it the right of private individuals and corporate entities to discriminate other solely for political views? Are corporations supposed to overwhelm political entities? Don't people realize the irony of fighting the capitalist system when they are backed by capitalism?

[AvalonAurora]

The feminist vs trans issue get ZERO press coverage in the US. Feminist voices have been quite effectively suppressed. All the years of fighting for pro-female legislation gets torn down in a blink of an eye. As it turns out, if men want to take away female opportunities all they need to do is claim to be women. Then the law will protect them while they win gold medals in female sports, take female scholarships and use up grant money dogeared for female start up businesses.

Does it matter that feminists see them as biological men dressed up like or surgically altered to appear like women? Nope. Men squashed the feminist movement in the end by deleting what it means to be a woman.

Would you ban intersexed (people who would naturally have some combination of both genitals and no clear XY or XX setup, but some weird combination of chromosomes in the 3's or 4's, possibly all X's but with damaged genes, or XY people with testosterone immunity who appear to be biological women but have genetics that looks more like men based on chromosomes, and various other conditions that don't quite fit the definition of male or female) people from sports? Are you going to test everyone's genetics before letting them play, because a lot of people who are born intersexed are modified to remove their male parts at birth so they don't have a mixture of parts or due to parts being noticeably defective/damaged due to the mix up?

Trans people have been confirmed to have brains that function more similar to their self-recognized gender, and after hormone treatment, transwomen have more similar physical abilities to women than men, especially if they start early. They should get to play sports too if they want to, and they fit more accurately in the women's categories for fairness sake. They aren't just men pretending to be women, they are people with brains like women (based on brain activity scans using neural mapping electrode sensors and exposure to various controlled stimuli, not just vague question and answer things of some kind of psychological test), just not the natural hormones and chromosomes (sometimes) a perfect match, but after hormone treatment, they have almost exactly the same physical abilities as women based on most testing done, certainly far closer than they have to men. Even if bone development is a bit different due to different initial puberty (if they didn't start early enough on hormones), it isn't noticeably different from women of the same height and weight in physical abilities, so rather than keeping them out of women category sports, it would perhaps be better to set up height/weight categories in more sports, much like how boxing and wrestling have different weight categories.

Transwomen aren't biological men, they're biological mixes with women brains and male some of their other parts, who feel instinctively they should be women.

It hasn't been 'deleted' for the existence of women for transwomen to be acknowledged as women, it's acknowledging that biology and brains are messy, complicated things that aren't always just one thing or another, but are often a blend of things with various potential minor mutations and other complications. Good treatment of trans individuals isn't mutually exclusive of good treatment of men or women who aren't trans.

[robertleva]

Yep, those are all words. I am sure they have meaning to you and your echo chamber but they mean nothing to me. Legit genetic anomalies have been around forever and are already covered by the ADA and quite a few other programs. The non genetic anomalies are the people that the feminists rightly have a beef with. Stick your head in the sand all you want it wont budge those of us who are immune to these mob mentality tactics.

[motleyslayer]

this thread is getting out of hand so I will be locking it

[Feyd_Ruin]

We are diverging from the topic at hand.

There's always a lot of strong opinions here, and I don't expect us all to agree, but this isn't the place to have the full-world debate. If you want to discuss this, it needs to stick to Magic/WotC/Neilson. Once the topic expands beyond that, a Magic community simply isn't the right place to have that discussion. I know that it can be hard to keep the topic on Magic, since it echoes a lot of larger-world issues, but that's what we're here for. We're all here because we love magic, and especially with how things have been more chaotic than usual lately, we're here together because of our common interest, and that common interest should remain the focus.