Golos, ETB Pilgrim - Value Town

[Kitsune_18]

I hear you on Venser. It was VERY difficult to make that cut as it's one of my pet cards as well.

Have you considered the filter lands (Mystic Gate, Flooded Grove, and Wooded Bastion) over the pain lands? I've been very happy with them over the years.

[ZenN]

Have you considered the filter lands (Mystic Gate, Flooded Grove, and Wooded Bastion) over the pain lands?

I ran the filters once upon a time. They're fine. I dislike that if they're my only coloured land then they're not a coloured land. I think whether or choose the filters or the pains is mostly just a personal preference thing. I'm not sure one is objectively right over the other. The pain is rarely relevant to me, though. Most games I end up going back to 40 off Resolute Archangel at least once. Often more.

[pokken]

I think it's probably right to play Flooded Grove to up your odds of hitting the UUU for navigator turns and so on. I'd play it over Reflecting Pool in a 3 color deck myself, especially since it adds another colorless source for Displacer as well (if you keep that).

[ZenN]

I think it's probably right to play Flooded Grove to up your odds of hitting the UUU for navigator turns and so on. I'd play it over Reflecting Pool in a 3 color deck myself, especially since it adds another colorless source for Displacer as well (if you keep that).

That's not unreasonable. I'm not sure I'd put it in over Reflecting Pool (especially in the Eldrazi Displacer case, because that's actually another potential colourless source). I haven't felt like I've had any colour issues in quite a long time, but if I ever do again it's something I'll consider.

[pokken]

Oh you're right, I thought RP said color.

edit: On review I still think it's the worst land in your deck except Canopy Vista potentially, and I would hesitate to cut a green source to add it. RP only makes colorless when you already have it and you only have like 4 or 5 other sources on lands.

I'm weird but I never really feel like I need city of brass/mana confluence in 3 color decks with 9 fetches either so either of those would be fine too potentially.

[Kitsune_18]

Reflecting Pool also works very nicely with the filter lands

I've been happy enough with it that I'm even tempted to include a Crop Rotation just to go find it more consistently. Hurts a little to be losing 3 lands for it, but it's honestly been that good.

If you're not willing to give up a slot for Crop Rotation, have you considered Tolaria West? I know it's a mono-color tapland but if you're able to look past that, it's basically on par with casting Wargate for 0 to get a land (minus putting said land onto the battlefield). It could even tutor up Pact of Negation if you run that!

Also, hoping to get in a few games this weekend. Notable new inclusions I'll be testing are Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath and Yorion, Sky Nomad.

[ZenN]

Oh you're right, I thought RP said color.

edit: On review I still think it's the worst land in your deck except Canopy Vista potentially, and I would hesitate to cut a green source to add it. RP only makes colorless when you already have it and you only have like 4 or 5 other sources on lands.

I'm weird but I never really feel like I need city of brass/mana confluence in 3 color decks with 9 fetches either so either of those would be fine too potentially.

With the number of fetches I play, and the number of games where I end up flickering, cloning, or reanimating a Wood Elves multiple times, I'd be very hesitant to cut any basic typed duals, especially when they say Forest on them. I'd definitely cut Mana Confluence, City of Brass, and Reflecting Pool before I'd cut Canopy Vista or Prairie Stream.

City of Brass and Mana Confluence ended up getting reincluded when I was much heavier on blue for a while (particularly with the wizard subtheme I once had, which included Azami, Lady of Scrolls and Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir). They could definitely be cut now for normal pain lands or filter lands so I have more colourless for Eldrazi Displacer, which I think I mentioned in one of my earlier posts today.

That said, as I mentioned earlier, it's been along time since I've felt like I had any colour issues at all (not counting the lack of colourless for Displacer...), and it's possible that that's in part to having so many lands that tap for all my colours. Plus, while it's an obvious edge case, there has been the odd time when having the rainbow lands has allowed me to activate an ability of something I stole or cloned from someone else.

If you're not willing to give up a slot for Crop Rotation, have you considered Tolaria West? I know it's a mono-color tapland but if you're able to look past that, it's basically on par with casting Wargate for 0 to get a land (minus putting said land onto the battlefield). It could even tutor up Pact of Negation if you run that!

Also, hoping to get in a few games this weekend. Notable new inclusions I'll be testing are Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath and Yorion, Sky Nomad.

Tolaria West is just so slow. For everything it does. I've definitely used Wargate for 0 more than a few times as a ramp spell. Crop Rotation does keep coming to mind, though. I've got a few good targets for it already, and I've been considering putting in a Field of the Dead, because honestly that card is just stupid and I'm starting to wonder if it should just be in almost every single deck, which would be another sweet target.

I'm definitely curious to find out how you feel about Yorion, Sky Nomad. Card definitely wasn't even on my radar until you mentioned it. I had kind of just ignored it because of the companion clause not working, without even considering it as a normal inclusion.

[pokken]

I made a Yorion, Sky Nomad deck and it was absolutely insanely effective. I think it'd be pretty crazy in this deck. It creates functionally infinite value when you drop it with any other blink creature, blinking all your dudes every end step.

[ZenN]

I made a Yorion, Sky Nomad deck and it was absolutely insanely effective. I think it'd be pretty crazy in this deck. It creates functionally infinite value when you drop it with any other blink creature, blinking all your dudes every end step.

That's actually really interesting, because something like Soulherder + Yorion, Sky Nomad would mean that on each of your end steps you could exile your whole board, and it would be gone until the end of the next player's turn, effectively protecting your board from any sorcery speed effects that person has.

[pokken]

Yeah it does a lot of crazy stuff. If you do Yorion + resto, it means they can never get your dudes at sorcery speed except Yorion, for example. End step resto comes back blinks yorion yorion triggers hiding everything but him til the next end step. When Karmic Guide is out it means they have to use instant speed bounce/tuck/theft/exile, since guide always comes back.

It's even more gross with Dance of Many where the yorion token hides dance and the real Yorion, making it so basically nothing is ever available to kill sorcery speed. Yorion ETB blinking dance, dance comes back makes a yorion it dies as its trigger goes on the stack, hiding everything until the next endstep

[Kitsune_18]

I wanted to pose a question to the group about 7 cmc creatures. How many do you run? Which do you run and why?

I prefer to include no more than 2, which have historically been Angel of Serenity (at least since they banned Sylvan Primordial) and Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite. However, I'm not sure I've been getting enough mileage out of Elesh Norn due to my meta shifting away from small creature-heavy decks. It'll be a hard cut to make since, even against decks with few small creatures, she's never totally useless. I'm considering a number of options to replace Elesh Norn--and possibly even Angel of Serenity: Sphinx of Uthuun, Agent of Treachery, Nezahal, Primal Tide, and Resolute Archangel. What are your thoughts on these? Have you had success with these or other 7 cmc creatures?

[ZenN]

Over the years, the 7 drops I've played are:

• Angel of Serenity - Currently running.
• Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite - Wasn't nearly as impactful as I had hoped.
• Palinchron - Was just there as a combo piece.
• Resolute Archangel - Currently running.
• Sphinx of Uthuun - Was never unhappy with this card at all, just wanted to trim from 3 to 2 7 drops.
• Sylvan Primordial - b&

I've run different numbers of 7 drops over the years, between 1 and 3. I wasn't unhappy with 3, but at some point years ago the entirety of the list was shifted to bring down the average CMC, from about 3.7 to under 3. That's when I went down to 1, then back up to 2, which I have found to kind of be the sweet spot.

Which 7 drops you run will absolutely come down to personal play style, meta, and the rest of your deck composition, but I will say that the two I'm running now are the two I've been happiest with (barring our dear departed Primordial).

Resolute Archangel has won me far more games than Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite ever did. I had taken it out of the deck for a bit and missed her dearly, and actually saw a very noticeable decline in my win rate. With the angel, I will spend the first half of the game bring very aggressive with my life total, and then just drop an angel and put myself back to 40. Not only does that let me get ahead by doing things like taking 8 every turn from Sylvan Library, but also I blanks any early non-commander attacks that came at me. Add to that that she's also just a decent flying body. Don't see myself ever cutting her again.

Angel of Serenity is the most ridiculous, grindiest card. I've won so many games by looping angels to continuously recur my own stuff, or keeping relevant threats off my opponents' boards. She was once cut for a while, and I kissed her. I feel like I don't need to go into too much detail on her since you're already playing her yourself, but at the least I'll say that I don't see myself cutting her again either.

[Kitsune_18]

I might finally have to give Resolute Archangel a chance. It never looked very exciting on paper, but it sounds like in practice it can be quite impactful.

Out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on Agent of Treachery and Nezahal, Primal Tide? Agent seems like a fantastic blink target and reminds me of Duplicant with plenty of added upside. I've heard impressive anecdotal evidence of Nezahal's game-ending presence (and who doesn't like a giant plesiosaur?) but have never played with or against it. I have felt my deck didn't have enough straight-up card draw despite playing Mulldrifter, Prime Speaker Zegana, Pull from Tomorrow, Fact or Fiction, Skullclamp, and Sylvan Library, and either of these cards could address that.

[ZenN]

Out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on Agent of Treachery and Nezahal, Primal Tide? Agent seems like a fantastic blink target and reminds me of Duplicant with plenty of added upside. I've heard impressive anecdotal evidence of Nezahal's game-ending presence (and who doesn't like a giant plesiosaur?) but have never played with or against it. I have felt my deck didn't have enough straight-up card draw despite playing Mulldrifter, Prime Speaker Zegana, Pull from Tomorrow, Fact or Fiction, Skullclamp, and Sylvan Library, and either of these cards could address that.

Agent of Treachery has been really solid in my Maelstrom Wanderer deck, and I have considered it here. I don't think there's enough theft, in my build at least, to really expect to ever get to draw cards with it, but a build with a theft subtheme could totally take advantage of it (especially with a Willbreaker for Derevi to abuse). I don't think I'd rather have it over either of my current 7 drops, but I don't think it would be bad.

As for Nezahal, Primal Tide, I really couldn't imagine playing that over Consecrated Sphinx. They do similar things, but the Sphinx will draw you way more cards at a lower mana cost, and while it has a smaller body it also comes with flying.

I do get you about wanting more card draw, though. I just went more at the low end with it, which is why I put in Ice-Fang Coatl, and more recently Risen Reef. I could also see an argument for Cloudblazer, though the 5 drop slots are tough. All these cards play nicely with flickering and are easy to decide to Birthing Pod away.

I've also been getting decent draw from Horizon Canopy and Waterlogged Grove with Sun Titan from time to time, which is nice when it happens.

I suppose I ought to consider swapping out Sphinx's Revelation for Pull from Tomorrow. A mana cheaper, easier to cast, and putting something on the bin is often going to be absolutely fine.

[Kitsune_18]

I suppose I ought to consider swapping out Sphinx's Revelation for Pull from Tomorrow. A mana cheaper, easier to cast, and putting something on the bin is often going to be absolutely fine.

My main reason for doing so is the inclusion of Spellseeker. Very occasionally I miss the life gain on Rev, just another reason for me to run Resolute Archangel, I guess. Funnily enough, the discard aspect of Pull has actually helped me on occasion, allowing me to discard and return a key creature to the battlefield with Karmic Guide and the like.

I see your point about Nezahal and Consecrated Sphinx. I think the biggest advantage Nezahal has over the Sphinx is that it might not be threat-assessed as highly and thus might not draw as much hate. It also has some built in protection against potential removal.

[ZenN]

My main reason for doing so is the inclusion of Spellseeker. Very occasionally I miss the life gain on Rev, just another reason for me to run Resolute Archangel, I guess. Funnily enough, the discard aspect of Pull has actually helped me on occasion, allowing me to discard and return a key creature to the battlefield with Karmic Guide and the like.

I see your point about Nezahal and Consecrated Sphinx. I think the biggest advantage Nezahal has over the Sphinx is that it might not be threat-assessed as highly and thus might not draw as much hate. It also has some built in protection against potential removal.

Yeah, that's what I meant about Pull from Tomorrow. It's the same potential upside that used to have me playing both Fact or Fiction and Sphinx of Uthuun, though neither of those is in right now.

That's a totally fair point about Nezahal, Primal Tide. I'm all for playing into the assuming that other people are bad at Magic, because most people are.

[ZenN]

Played some games with this tonight, and for %$#% and giggles I threw in Cavalier of Dawn over Body Double. I only saw it in one of the games, but I gotta say, I was definitely very happy with it.

In that one game I Birthing Podded a Solemn Simulacrum into the Cavalier, blowing up a Hanweir Garrison (I know, doesn't sound like much, but the card is actually really strong in a Jirina Kudro deck...), and then Podded away the Cavalier into a 6 drop, putting the Solemn back into my hand. Later in that same game, I used Karmic Guide to bring back the Cavalier, this time blowing up a Bastion of Remembrance that was threatening to kill the table, and when it died a couple turns later to an Austere Command I got back that same Solemn again.

I'm not entirely sure that Body Double is the right cut for it, but I'm pretty convinced that I want to find a permanent slot for it.

[Kitsune_18]

Very intriguing results! Cavalier of Dawn is definitely on my shortlist of cards to try. Reminds me a bit of good ol' Acidic Slime but with the benefit of a death trigger and an upgraded body.

I just noticed that you no longer play Sensei's Divining Top in you deck. I thought that card was for sure a staple of 99% of commander decks! Any particular reason it's been cut?

[ZenN]

I just noticed that you no longer play Sensei's Divining Top in you deck. I thought that card was for sure a staple of 99% of commander decks! Any particular reason it's been cut?

Honestly, the format has just grown and moved on. Sensei's Divining Top is one of those cards that everybody used to think should go on every Commander deck, but that's just not true. It's a fine card, but unless there's a good reason for playing it (like actually having a use for top deck manipulation), then it isn't really worth the slot. You may notice that fewer and fewer decks include Top just because it's Top.

So, Top is absolutely in my Maelstrom Wanderer deck, but just doesn't do enough to merit the slot here. This list tends to be very tight and hard to find cuts in already, so cards need to be judged pretty harshly.

[Kitsune_18]

Honestly, the format has just grown and moved on. Sensei's Divining Top is one of those cards that everybody used to think should go on every Commander deck, but that's just not true. It's a fine card, but unless there's a good reason for playing it (like actually having a use for top deck manipulation), then it isn't really worth the slot. You may notice that fewer and fewer decks include Top just because it's Top.

So, Top is absolutely in my Maelstrom Wanderer deck, but just doesn't do enough to merit the slot here. This list tends to be very tight and hard to find cuts in already, so cards need to be judged pretty harshly.

Fair point. I've definitely questioned its value at times, but was stuck in the orthodoxy of "Every Deck Must Play Top"

Whether I cut it or not is another question. I think I could easily live without it, but I don't know what I would play instead. I suppose I probably should be playing Rhystic Study, eh?

[ZenN]

Fair point. I've definitely questioned its value at times, but was stuck in the orthodoxy of "Every Deck Must Play Top"

Whether I cut it or not is another question. I think I could easily live without it, but I don't know what I would play instead. I suppose I probably should be playing Rhystic Study, eh?

It can definitely be difficult to get past the things that were ingrained into you early on. I was following along with everybody else on the "every deck must play Top" mentality for years. One day a few years ago it just clicked that Top is not actually that good of a card if you don't take advantage of the top deck manipulation, and a lot of other people have come to that same conclusion and started cutting it.

As for Rhystic Study, the card is definitely strong, but whether or not you should play it really comes down to your play group and what you want it to do. If you want it to be drawing you cards, but everybody in your group always just treats it as mandatory tax, then you're not going to be happy with it. If you're okay just taxing people and treat getting cards as a bonus, then it'll feel great.

[DeadPresident]

On the topic of 7CMC creatures my previous inclusions pretty much mirror Zen's entirely, and at present I'm running Sphinx of Uthuun and Palinchron. After reading through the recent posts and thinking back on my games I actually think Sphinx has just been a glorified stepping stone to get me to Craterhoof in the pod chain and hasn't exactly been carrying its weight much. I have an Angel of Serenity and ran it in my Jenara list but after never seeing it for a few rounds straight and wanting more draw I switched it out for the Sphinx, I'm thinking I should revisit that decision and reverse it.

As an aside, and just in case anyone finds their 4CMC pod-chain slots annoying to fill (it was the most difficult place for me to find high-value creatures), I can't say enough good things about Palace Jailer. It's always the first 4CMC creature I search for and never disappoints, early or late game it'll scupper someone's progress and I think these lists are very adept at keeping the monarchy for long enough to get several cards out of the Jailer.

[ZenN]

On the topic of 7CMC creatures my previous inclusions pretty much mirror Zen's entirely, and at present I'm running Sphinx of Uthuun and Palinchron. After reading through the recent posts and thinking back on my games I actually think Sphinx has just been a glorified stepping stone to get me to Craterhoof in the pod chain and hasn't exactly been carrying its weight much. I have an Angel of Serenity and ran it in my Jenara list but after never seeing it for a few rounds straight and wanting more draw I switched it out for the Sphinx, I'm thinking I should revisit that decision and reverse it.

As an aside, and just in case anyone finds their 4CMC pod-chain slots annoying to fill (it was the most difficult place for me to find high-value creatures), I can't say enough good things about Palace Jailer. It's always the first 4CMC creature I search for and never disappoints, early or late game it'll scupper someone's progress and I think these lists are very adept at keeping the monarchy for long enough to get several cards out of the Jailer.

I've definitely seen Palace Jailer do some work for other people, and introducing the monarch into a game is usually pretty fun. It's interesting to me though that you felt you had a hard time filling the 4 drop slots, when I actually feel like there are too many 4 drops I want to play.

The value of Angel of Serenity vs Sphinx of Uthuun will somewhat depend on how you personally pilot the deck, but don't forget that, when targeting things from your own graveyard, the Angel is not only giving you recursion but also essentially drawing you cards. The cards she's drawing you are just whatever creatures you want from your yard, rather than random cards off the top. I also love being able to just get rid of opposing threats with her. In particular, I love playing her out with a way to flicker her, so I can first hit three things from my own yard, then flicker her and exile three opposing threats. Don't forget that, with something like Deadeye Navigator or Eldrazi Displacer, you can flicker her in response to the trigger to permanently exile any of your opponents' things!

[DeadPresident]

I've definitely seen Palace Jailer do some work for other people, and introducing the monarch into a game is usually pretty fun. It's interesting to me though that you felt you had a hard time filling the 4 drop slots, when I actually feel like there are too many 4 drops I want to play.

The value of Angel of Serenity vs Sphinx of Uthuun will somewhat depend on how you personally pilot the deck, but don't forget that, when targeting things from your own graveyard, the Angel is not only giving you recursion but also essentially drawing you cards. The cards she's drawing you are just whatever creatures you want from your yard, rather than random cards off the top. I also love being able to just get rid of opposing threats with her. In particular, I love playing her out with a way to flicker her, so I can first hit three things from my own yard, then flicker her and exile three opposing threats. Don't forget that, with something like Deadeye Navigator or Eldrazi Displacer, you can flicker her in response to the trigger to permanently exile any of your opponents' things!

I think I'm committing a couple of acts of sacrilege in my 4-drop selection; the 2 most egregious being that I'm not running Solemn Simulacrum and the lack of Phyrexian Metamorph. I'll be fixing both of those shortly.

Yeah, the value of Angel of Serenity makes it a worthwhile swap out for the Sphinx when it's put that way. It could replace the card advantage aspect quite easily with the potential for recursion, but offers additional removal/GY hate benefits on top of that while having the exact same body and evasion. I didn't realize the blink effect could be stack-abused to make it permanent, but I probably should've

I also think that some of the cards I've been unimpressed with I may as well cut to incorporate additional value/ETB options like Soulherder, new Thassa, and one of the Cavaliers. I run a decent amount of tax cards that haven't impressed me and usually call too much attention to me, I'd probably be better off just adding more objective value in.

[ZenN]

I think I'm committing a couple of acts of sacrilege in my 4-drop selection; the 2 most egregious being that I'm not running Solemn Simulacrum and the lack of Phyrexian Metamorph. I'll be fixing both of those shortly.

Solemn Simulacrum is often a heavily overrated card, but this is one of those decks where it's legitimately very good. My favourite Birthing Pod stepping stone.

Phyrexian Metamorph is a pretty big miss in my opinion, for sure. But I'm generally a huge huge fan of clones, and it's one of the top 3, so maybe I'm biased.