Kykar, Wind's Fury - Spellslinger Tokens

[MeowZeDung]

I know that the Absorb and Unbreakable Formation effects aren't going to always prevent me from getting wrecked by a board wipe, but I think they will often enough for me to be happy with them. It's also worth pointing out that the counters and indestructibility spells I'm running are flexible and aren't in the deck just to prevent my board from being wiped.

That said, I see your point, and I might come around to it more after testing the recent changes I've made. If I don't find myself happy with Rootborn Defenses and it's compadres, I'll probably swap them out for In the Web of War and/or Relentless Assault type effects.

[OCPunisher]

You might be right about some of them as well. Counters in particular have been really growing on me lately, given the recent trend towards cheaper spells.

One more way to stave off destruction is Karmic Justice. It's relatively cheap and offers a great rattlesnake effect for any size army.

[toctheyounger]

The other option in face of a wipe is instant speed spells to pour spirit mana into. You've got a free sac outlet for mana in the command zone, why not go for something like Comet Storm? I'll be honest I didn't even notice that card was instant speed till like yesterday.

[MeowZeDung]

The other option in face of a wipe is instant speed spells to pour spirit mana into. You've got a free sac outlet for mana in the command zone, why not go for something like Comet Storm? I'll be honest I didn't even notice that card was instant speed till like yesterday.

Oooh, Comet Storm would certainly be a sweet way to punish an opponent for daring to wipe the board.

I have been thinking about red mana sinks as a use for spirits that are about to die no matter what I do. Unfortunately most red mana sinks are overcosted looting effects, or firebreathing. Spikeshot Elder could really do some work if I get it out alongside Jeskai Ascendancy and rack up some storm count, and Obsidian Fireheart could really cause opponents some grief. I'm not convinced they're powerful enough to be worth it though.

---

Well, last night was a huge learning experience! I got to play two games, unfortunately both 1v1, against my buddy's newly constructed Muldrotha, the Gravetide deck.

The first game was sweet, but I think I had an inherent edge just by virtue of it being 1v1.

Game 1

Show

Hide

I didn't get to ramp into T3 Kykar unfortunately, but I ran out Young Pyromancer early on into T4 Kykar. The decisive play was the turn my opponent tapped out for Muldrotha and I cast Path to Exile on it straight away. In a 4 player game I probably would have sat on the path, but in this case the tempo blowout was just too big to pass up, and my opponent's yard was already looking juicy courtesy of Hedron Crab and Dreamborn Muse.

I followed that up 2 turns later with Murmuring Mystic and some cheap spellslinging. I left open 2 mana that could be any colors with a Boros Charm and Dig Through Time in hand and enough in the yard to delve (thx Dreamborn Muse!). When oppo passed the turn I took the bait and cast dig, and oppo responded by blowing his Oblivion Stone that I foolishly forgot about. I got a spirit, elemental, and bird as my consolation prizes, but I had also already gotten oppo down to somewhere between 20-30 life and had The Locust God in hand and two sweet draw spells to go with it courtesy of Dig Through Time.

The remaining two turns were just a matter of going through the motions and winning with haste bugs and my 4/4 flyer on turn 9-10 (not exactly sure which). I felt in control for pretty much the whole game, and the only things that really slowed me down were not drawing any early ramp and my stupid misplay with Oblivion Stone on board.

Game 2 lasted about an hour and was the real eye opener. I won't bore you with *all* the absurd and complicated details, but suffice to say I learned of an absolutely massive gaping hole in the deck that I should have foreseen.

Game 2

Show

Hide

Long story (sort of) short, I developed a very strong board with Cathars' Crusade, Eldrazi Monument, Saheeli, Sublime Artificer and Kykar with oppo on the backfoot even though he had stuck Muldrotha and put Lightning Greaves on it and had a sweet value engine going. I also had a bit of a soft lock with Past in Flames in the yard alongside a bunch of cheap removal and oppo admitted that he didn't really have a way to play around it. . . that is until he milled Spore Frog and effectively blanked my combat step indefinitely. Thus began half an hour of me playing solitaire.

With the issue forced by Fog Frog, I had to crack Past in Flames to Return to Dust the greaves, flashback Path to Exile targeting Muldrotha, and churn through my deck hoping to find a counterspell for oppo's commander. I found Dovin's Veto . . . of course.

Rinse and repeat 4-5 times the same pattern of: oppo tapping out for Muldrotha, Fog Frog, and any ramp he could manage, then me digging for removal, succeeding, but somehow whiffing on finding a counter or Sunforger during my 5-10 minute turns. I finally managed to get my hands on Counterflux after casting Chaos Warp targeting Muldrotha (flipped an Island!), thus mercifully ending the frog menace's tyranny and clearing the way for my 7 zillion arbitrarily huge tokens.

---

The moral of the story? I thought I was being "nice" and "fair" and "75%" by not including effects like Purphoros, God of the Forge and Aetherflux Reservoir in the deck and just relying on a swarm of tokens in combat to win, but an instant win con outside of combat would have been a mercy for both me and my opponent in that second game. I will keep swarm as my plan A, but I'm adding in a plan B and plan C after that groan fest. I'm thinking of taking out Rootborn Defenses and Make a Stand for Impact Tremors and Goblin Bombardment as the deck's plan B, and taking either Unbreakable Formation or maybe Strategic Planning out for Aetherflux Reservoir as the deck's plan C.

Thoughts?

[toctheyounger]

I'm probably not the right person to ask, but I hate Reservoir. There are just so few cards that answer it and that's annoying to me. Once the opponent is over 50 life there's nothing you can do about an instant kill unless you have one of like, 6-7 cards in play or hand. It's strong; I just don't like it personally. Rant over

That being said those are all decent win cons. You could possibly do Goblin Bombardment for win cons too, or Warstorm Surge. The latter would be pretty decent board control even outside of an actual win con - great with Divine Visitation. That being said the CMC could be a deterrent.

[MeowZeDung]

I'm not the biggest fan of Aetherflux Reservoir either to be honest, and for the same reasons. It's a super non-interactive card. However, in this case I'm going to begrudgingly be ok with it as a silver bullet that goes nicely with my cheap spellslinging for an out of nowhere win in a ridiculously bogged down game like the one I had the other night. I won't be running Fabricate or Whir of Invention to go get it or any such nonsense.

I do like that Warstorm Surge targets and can just control the board, but you're right, the mana cost is higher than I'm interested in for the effect, and there is definitely "some assembly required" if all I happen to be spitting out is 1/1's. I see Surge on the same spectrum as Purphoros, God of the Forge and Impact Tremors, and I think Purphoros is easily the best of the three, to the point of being obnoxious, and Surge is the worst. So, I'm going to take the middle ground with Impact Tremors

I did go ahead and make a few changes:

11/17/19 changes

DecklistCMCManaPricesChartsDraw 7

Out (5)

1 Rootborn Defenses

1 Make a Stand

1 Think Twice

1 Strategic Planning

1 Volcanic Vision

In (5)

1 Impact Tremors

1 Goblin Bombardment

1 Aetherflux Reservoir

1 Gamble

1 Tragic Arrogance

Approximate Total Cost:

Rootborn Defenses and Make a Stand came out to make room for the two red token win cons as discussed. I still like the idea of protecting my swarm from a board wipe, sometimes with help of Sunforger, so I'm keeping the best and most flexible two indestructibility spells in the deck.

I decided that Think Twice and Strategic Planning were the least impactful draw spells in the deck for their mana costs and yanked them to add the "Plan C" silverbullet win con to the deck and a single, solitary tutor to go get it, or whatever best suits the situation I'm in. Also, you haven't lived unless you've played a turn 1 Gamble for a land or mana rock

I'll miss my dear Volcanic Vision, but it's just too darn situational and I need to be rational and admit that this is just not the deck for it. In goes Tragic Arrogance. I'm not crying, it's just raining on my face

[OCPunisher]

The dark side welcomes you.

I'm a big fan of that last round of changes. Gamble is at its best on turn one because your hand is full and therefore reduces the odds of pitching your target. Impact Tremors is incredible in this deck.

If the Reservoir doesn't work out for you, I've been a huge fan of Opposition, and I've even considered Kyren Negotiations in this deck for extra mileage out of your tokens. I'm also very curious to see how Goblin Bombardment works alongside Kykar.

[MeowZeDung]

Yeah, I'm actually concerned Impact Tremors is going to be TOO good. We'll see.

If Aetherflux Reservoir is too much I'll probably swap it out for Kyren Negotiations. I discuss negotiations a bit in the card choice section, and I think it's a great package with Jeskai Ascendancy, Opposition and Intruder Alarm with this commander. Truth be told, opposition would be too oppressive for my meta, but reservoir has seen play and negotiations would be fine.

The way I see goblin bombardment playing out is sacrificing 1. in response to a wrath, 2. after declaring chump blockers or being blocked, 3. when storming off and it can kill one or more players after combat, or 4. to get rid of a must-kill threat. I don't see it ever being a value only play. There's already Kykar's ability for value.

[OCPunisher]

If Aetherflux Reservoir is too much I'll probably swap it out for Kyren Negotiations. I discuss negotiations a bit in the card choice section, and I think it's a great package with Jeskai Ascendancy, Opposition and Intruder Alarm with this commander.

Totally forgot about the interaction between Kyren Negotiations and Jeskai Ascendancy. Time to move KN up the list!

[OCPunisher]

The way I see goblin bombardment playing out is sacrificing 1. in response to a wrath, 2. after declaring chump blockers or being blocked, 3. when storming off and it can kill one or more players after combat, or 4. to get rid of a must-kill threat. I don't see it ever being a value only play. There's already Kykar's ability for value.

If Bombardment doesn't end up working, another card you could try is Outpost Siege. Both modes are pretty relevant for this deck, which should help justify the 4cmc.

[toctheyounger]

Yeah, I'm actually concerned Impact Tremors is going to be TOO good. We'll see.

If Bombardment doesn't end up working, another card you could try is Outpost Siege. Both modes are pretty relevant for this deck, which should help justify the 4cmc.

They're both pretty solid effects that'll do some damage. The case for inclusion of either of those is probably dependent on how well you can defend yourself while you're building to a game winning situation though. Because neither one is a one punch KO they're not going to come out of left field and they could very well draw unwanted attention. It could well be something you can manage, but it's worth mentioning that this could be an issue. Whenever I've played against a Krenko, Mob Boss or Edgar Markov with Impact Tremors in the 99, that player gets targeted into oblivion.

Unrelated, but relevant to previous comment. Earlier I mentioned Comet Storm as a good instant speed mana sink. How would Electrodominance sound here? It's a face punch and a free spell, could be worth looking at. There's also Aurelia's Fury and Expansion // Explosion, which could be cool. I looked for other instant speed spells and these seem the most versatile.

[OCPunisher]

Unrelated, but relevant to previous comment. Earlier I mentioned Comet Storm as a good instant speed mana sink. How would Electrodominance sound here? It's a face punch and a free spell, could be worth looking at. There's also Aurelia's Fury and Expansion // Explosion, which could be cool. I looked for other instant speed spells and these seem the most versatile.

I'd rank them as follows:
1. Expansion // Explosion: instant-speed, both modes are useful, one comes out of a Sunforger, definitely worth playing. Explosion doesn't need a big 'X' to be effective, as you can just point it at an opponent or a planeswalker and draw 2-4 cards.
2. Electrodominance: Instant-speed, gets a second cast trigger. Probably requires a bigger 'X' value to be super-effective, but you also get a second cast trigger, which makes a second copy of tokens from Kykar and Saheeli and others.
3. Aurelia's Fury: I don't have too much experience with this card, but on paper it seems reasonably flexible. You can technically bring it out of a Sunforger and tap down a team or quasi-Silence someone.
4. Comet Storm: This is a great card, but there are a lot of other 'X' spells that I'd rather have in this particular deck. We didn't even mention any of the Earthquakes that don't damage your flyers, and I'd rather have each of those as well. This probably requires a big 'X' value to be effective, plus even more mana to multi-kick it, and this particular deck usually runs a few less lands and a pretty low curve.

[toctheyounger]

I'd rank them as follows:
1. Expansion // Explosion: instant-speed, both modes are useful, one comes out of a Sunforger, definitely worth playing. Explosion doesn't need a big 'X' to be effective, as you can just point it at an opponent or a planeswalker and draw 2-4 cards.
2. Electrodominance: Instant-speed, gets a second cast trigger. Probably requires a bigger 'X' value to be super-effective, but you also get a second cast trigger, which makes a second copy of tokens from Kykar and Saheeli and others.
3. Aurelia's Fury: I don't have too much experience with this card, but on paper it seems reasonably flexible. You can technically bring it out of a Sunforger and tap down a team or quasi-Silence someone.
4. Comet Storm: This is a great card, but there are a lot of other 'X' spells that I'd rather have in this particular deck. We didn't even mention any of the Earthquakes that don't damage your flyers, and I'd rather have each of those as well. This probably requires a big 'X' value to be effective, plus even more mana to multi-kick it, and this particular deck usually runs a few less lands and a pretty low curve.

In general terms, I agree with this assessment. The difference between Comet Storm and Earthquake variants, though, is that it's instant speed. So we can drop it in response to a board wipe, sac a ton of spirits to hit a big x and make the best of a bad situation. That's why I've suggested all of the above, they're instant speed so they can respond to wipes.

[OCPunisher]

In general terms, I agree with this assessment. The difference between Comet Storm and Earthquake variants, though, is that it's instant speed. So we can drop it in response to a board wipe, sac a ton of spirits to hit a big x and make the best of a bad situation. That's why I've suggested all of the above, they're instant speed so they can respond to wipes.

In that case, Magmaquake is probably the one you want.

I had a chance to play a couple great games with Kykar last night, and wanted to share the details of my experience:

Game log

Show

Hide

Game 1, vs Thalia and Kess:

Game 1

Show

Hide

This game got off to a bit of a rough start. I kept an opener with only one land (Clifftop Retreat), Kess dropped an early Mystic Remora, and I had to use my Top to find more lands the hard way, which gave Kess quite a few extra cards. Thalia was nice enough to wait a turn for me to actually find my Top before coming down.

Eventually, I managed to get my lands going a bit more and build a board. Sunforger was an all-star here, mostly finding key responses to big stuff. My Expansion // Explosion got a Fact or Fiction, Dovin's Veto got a board wipe, Reverberate got an overloaded Mizzium Mortars.

The Kess player eventually tried to win by way of Laboratory Maniac and Demonic Consultation, but I had the answer with Electrodominance into Purphoros. Unfortunately, by this time I was down to 4 life and out of flyers, so the Thalia player used Elspeth, Knight-Errant to jump a Soldier token and take me out.

Game 2, vs Breya, Etherium Shaper and Grothama, All-Devouring (henceforth referred to as the Pinata):

Game 2

Show

Hide

This game went by pretty quickly. I kept a hand with a turn-2 Impact Tremors into turn-3 Smothering Tithe, but no Islands. Sunforger was incredible again, finding me a Tithe for some expensive plains, and Reverberate for a Praetor's Counsel. The pinata exploded for about 25 cards shortly thereafter, which meant all the treasures I could handle. On my next turn, I was able to put up Saheeli plus Kykar and Sunforger, which resulted in a LOT of Tremors damage. Sunforger found me a Kindred Discovery that drew me about a dozen cards, and I ended up winning the game during the Pinata's next combat step. He had almost 200 points of hexproof trample damage thanks to the combination of Myojin of Life's Web, Archetype of Endurance, and Goreclaw, Terror of Qal Sisma, but he had been Tremor'd down to 9 life, so I was able to cast enough spells to trigger Tremors and kill him before his combat damage could get home. Breya untapped and scooped it up to me.

I'd like to thank the following cards for doing serious work:
- Sunforger
- Smothering Tithe (duh)
- Specific counters with specific benefits, all of which were acquired via Sunforger: Dovin's Veto, Counterflux, and Render Silent.
- Reverberate (sooo glad I ran it over Twincast)
- Kindred Discovery, which probably drew me a dozen cards immediately in each of the two games.
- Saheeli, Sublime Artificer: a non-creature version of Kykar. The loyalty on her is irrelevant, and the bodies aren't quite as nice as Kykar's spirits, but 95% of Kykar is plenty.

I was also pleasantly surprised by these cards:
- Mission Briefing: a non-creature version of Snapcaster Mage, which in this deck is arguably just as good and maybe a little better.
- Tragic Arrogance: I got to cast this after the Thalia player saved his board with Make a Stand in response to my Time Wipe, and it did some work. The fact that I get to choose what stays is still criminally underrated.

The following cards are now on the chopping block after not really pulling their weight:
- Past in Flames: It's one of very few ways to use the graveyard, and on paper it looks like the perfect card, and maybe I was just a little choked on mana in Game 1, but that card sat in my graveyard with at least ten other cheap spells for quite a few turns, and I was never able to stabilize enough to use it.
- Metallurgic Summonings: Another non-creature spell that should pump out a lot of tokens, but it also sat in the yard for many turns. I even had a Hall of Heliod's Generosity for quite some time, and it still wasn't ever a priority.
- Reality Shift: Costs one more than Path and Swords, doesn't hit as many targets as Generous Gift and Chaos Warp, and doesn't come out of a Sunforger.

Finally, a couple things I wish I had:
- Settle the Wreckage: I got beaten down to four life by a bunch of tokens from a Talrand and a Murmuring Mystic out of the Kess deck, and this was one of the few situations that Sunforger couldn't really answer.
- Another anthem effect to make my Saheeli Servo tokens able to rumble with other medium-sized creatures.
- Probably nitpicking at this point, but some way to gain a little life would've been nice. Blind Obedience comes to mind...

[rogerandover]

Have you thought about Coastal Piracy and Bident of Thassa? Seems good with lots of tokens.

[mention]OCPunisher[/mention], the lifegain you missed, would Jeskai Charm fit the bill? Works both as a source for life and an anthem, plus it's fetchable via Sunforger.

[OCPunisher]

Have you thought about Coastal Piracy and Bident of Thassa? Seems good with lots of tokens.

OCPunisher, the lifegain you missed, would Jeskai Charm fit the bill? Works both as a source for life and an anthem, plus it's fetchable via Sunforger.

The Bident is somewhere on the maybeboard, although that list is getting a little out of hand.

I've looked at Jeskai Charm before, and none of the various modes really "wow" me. "Bouncing" a creature to the top of the library is just slightly above an Unsummon, and unless you time it perfectly around a fetchland, meh. 4 damage to a player doesn't move the needle, and there should be more than enough tokens to pressure planeswalkers.

On a related note, one card I randomly stumbled across was Honor the Fallen. Unlike the Charm, both of the modes on this card sound great: life-gain, and grave-hate that largely misses all of our stuff.

[MeowZeDung]

Great discussion [mention]toctheyounger[/mention] and [mention]OCPunisher[/mention]! You guys are giving me more card ideas than I have slots to work with Don't ever stop! This thread has already been so worth it.

If Bombardment doesn't end up working, another card you could try is Outpost Siege. Both modes are pretty relevant for this deck, which should help justify the 4cmc.

I hadn't considered siege since the deck has plenty of instant/sorcery draw and I have never even thought about using the second mode, but you're right that it's good with Kykar. I think it's fatal flaw is the lack of control over when it triggers. It's great with spirits because I can sac them at will, but all other tokens require a death trigger that I can't dictate.

They're both pretty solid effects that'll do some damage. The case for inclusion of either of those is probably dependent on how well you can defend yourself while you're building to a game winning situation though. Because neither one is a one punch KO they're not going to come out of left field and they could very well draw unwanted attention. It could well be something you can manage, but it's worth mentioning that this could be an issue. Whenever I've played against a Krenko, Mob Boss or Edgar Markov with Impact Tremors in the 99, that player gets targeted into oblivion.

Yeah, that's why I'm curious as to whether tremors is too good. I think some percentage of the time it will hit the table and I will become public enemy #1. I definitely don't see it as a t2 play. I think it's best to play it later in the game when life totals have already dwindled a bit and when I can storm off and make a huge number of tokens in a single turn/cycle.

Unrelated, but relevant to previous comment. Earlier I mentioned Comet Storm as a good instant speed mana sink. How would Electrodominance sound here? It's a face punch and a free spell, could be worth looking at. There's also Aurelia's Fury and Expansion // Explosion, which could be cool. I looked for other instant speed spells and these seem the most versatile.

I really like the thought of Electrodominance in the deck. With a board wipe on the stack I could sac all spirits for mana, and then after the wipe resolves use the mana to dome the opponent and free roll a token engine and start the rebuilding process. If I'm lucky, the opponent may recast their commander or stick another good creature after the board wipe during the same phase while I still have the mana floating and I can use Electrodominance to get rid of it. Doesn't work with Sunforger unfortunately.

Expansion // Explosion does intrigue me. Copying either Return to Dust or Unbreakable Formation during my pre-combat main phase seems great, and explosion gives me an option when facing a board wipe. Drawing a bunch of cards helps kickstart the rebuilding process, and punishing the owner of the wrath is great, but I'm a little concerned that the mana cost could be too restrictive sometimes. In contrast, Electrodominance only needs spirit mana. The expansion half can be used with Sunforger though.

Aurelia's Fury seems great too. It can be cast with only one mana source other than spirit mana in response to a board wipe, it can tap down an opponent's board if they are threatening to kill you once they go to combat, and it has the potential to shut down a spellslinger or artifact decks entire turn if you hit them with it during their upkeep. This one is going in the maybeboard for sure. [mention]OCPunisher[/mention] mentioned this as usable with sunforger, but I don't think that's the case as X would be 0 and the tap effect or non-creature Silence wouldn't take effect.

The difference between Comet Storm and Earthquake variants, though, is that it's instant speed. So we can drop it in response to a board wipe, sac a ton of spirits to hit a big x and make the best of a bad situation. That's why I've suggested all of the above, they're instant speed so they can respond to wipes.

In that case, Magmaquake is probably the one you want.

If I recall correctly, the two big differences between my build and [mention]OCPunisher[/mention]'s build is that I'm on instants and sorceries specifically and I am running other token generators besides Kykar and Saheeli, Sublime Artificer. In OC's build, Earthquake and Magmaquake are great because they are one sided board wipes a vast majority of the time. However, for me they can be a liability when I have a board full of Monastery Mentor or Young Pyromancer tokens. Also, while Magmaquake does have the benefit of instant speed, it doesn't really make sense to sac spirits to cast our own wrath in response to a wrath, and sacrificing the spirits kind of defeats the purpose of only hitting ground creatures, no?

[mention]OCPunisher[/mention]: Thanks for sharing your game details! They sounded like sweet games! I've never encountered a Grothama, All-Devouring player in the wild, but I sure hope I do someday :laugh:

I'd like to thank the following cards for doing serious work:
- Sunforger
- Smothering Tithe (duh)
- Specific counters with specific benefits, all of which were acquired via Sunforger: Dovin's Veto, Counterflux, and Render Silent.
- Reverberate (sooo glad I ran it over Twincast)
- Kindred Discovery, which probably drew me a dozen cards immediately in each of the two games.
- Saheeli, Sublime Artificer: a non-creature version of Kykar. The loyalty on her is irrelevant, and the bodies aren't quite as nice as Kykar's spirits, but 95% of Kykar is plenty.

Sound's about right, Gosh, Sunforger is such a house. That card never ceases to impress me.

Reverberate is one I'm embarrassed for having never thought of. Seems great with Kykar. You can play it out of nowhere even when you're tapped out and copy someone's Cruel Ultimatum or Army of the Damned.

I was also pleasantly surprised by these cards:
- Mission Briefing: a non-creature version of Snapcaster Mage, which in this deck is arguably just as good and maybe a little better.
- Tragic Arrogance: I got to cast this after the Thalia player saved his board with Make a Stand in response to my Time Wipe, and it did some work. The fact that I get to choose what stays is still criminally underrated.

Mission Briefing is also one I hadn't considered. Given how much I'm in love with Mystic Retrieval, a similar effect should deserve a closer look.

Tragic Arrogance getting around indestructible as well as stuff like Lightning Greaves is a definite benefit to running it! Nice! Of course getting to choose the opponent's worst permanents to stick around is also great.

The following cards are now on the chopping block after not really pulling their weight:
- Past in Flames: It's one of very few ways to use the graveyard, and on paper it looks like the perfect card, and maybe I was just a little choked on mana in Game 1, but that card sat in my graveyard with at least ten other cheap spells for quite a few turns, and I was never able to stabilize enough to use it.
- Metallurgic Summonings: Another non-creature spell that should pump out a lot of tokens, but it also sat in the yard for many turns. I even had a Hall of Heliod's Generosity for quite some time, and it still wasn't ever a priority.
- Reality Shift: Costs one more than Path and Swords, doesn't hit as many targets as Generous Gift and Chaos Warp, and doesn't come out of a Sunforger.

I'm surprised by some of these. Perhaps it's results oriented thinking, but I've never had Past in Flames be bad. Sometimes having it sit in the yard alongside counters and/or removal is enough of a rattlesnake to keep your opponents from trying anything too crazy. That said, when you do flash it back it generally accounts for your entire turn and almost always leads to tapping out completely, which can be a bad thing sometimes.

Metallurgic Summonings is another one that I've just never seen not pull its weight. The big downside is that it's expensive and does nothing up front, but it usually pays for itself and then some within half a turn. I am playing more cheap cantrip type spells though, so it's not unusual to spit out a bunch of 1/1's and 2/2's and crack it once I hit 6 artifacts. I've never lost after cracking this thing. It usually sets up a huge storm off type turn that generates so much value.

Reality Shift was never even something I considered tbh. Only hits creatures, and there are much, much better options in white and red that play nice with sunforger.

Finally, a couple things I wish I had:
- Settle the Wreckage: I got beaten down to four life by a bunch of tokens from a Talrand and a Murmuring Mystic out of the Kess deck, and this was one of the few situations that Sunforger couldn't really answer.
- Another anthem effect to make my Saheeli Servo tokens able to rumble with other medium-sized creatures.
- Probably nitpicking at this point, but some way to gain a little life would've been nice. Blind Obedience comes to mind...
[/spoiler]

If you're looking for lifegain then Blind Obedience could certainly help, but Jeskai Charm and Azorius Charm are also options that work well with tokens and include some built in flexibility. I guess there's also Fumigate if the board state is such that your tokens can't attack profitably you can trade them in for life and start fresh.

I don't like the idea of ramping an opponent with Settle the Wreckage. I think that the Kess player would have been just fine with trading off drake and bird tokens for lands. I'd much prefer picking off the problematic Talrand and Mystic along with any of their tokens with Goblin Bombardment. This is a situation where your Magmaquake doesn't get there unfortunately, but if you want an instant speed wrath you could look at Rout, Evacuation, or perhaps *shudder* Cyclonic Rift.

Anthems are great with Kykar and Saheeli for sure since most of them trigger Kykar/Saheeli in addition to buffing the tokens. The only reason I don't run any of them is to keep the instant/sorcery count as high as possible. Not sure what you're running but Spear of Heliod, Dictate of Heliod, Intangible Virtue, Radiant Destiny, and True Conviction could all be good options. Favorable Winds, Sprite Noble, Gravitational Shift, Thunderclap Wyvern, and Empyrean Eagle help spirits, but not servos. If you wanted to go deep on enchantment anthems you could also include Celestial Ancient. There's also the artifact anthems like The Immortal Sun, Vanquisher's Banner, Obelisk of Urd, Coat of Arms, and Icon of Ancestry. You could always run Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite too

Well, this is a lot of food for thought. I will probably wait a while for the next round of changes, but I'm already thinking about ways to make room for Electrodominance, Reverberate, and Mission Briefing. Suggested cuts appreciated! I'm also considering taking out some of the weaker dual lands that are entering tapped and slowing me down for some more basics. I would probably start by taking the temples out for one more of each basic. Thoughts?

P.S: Crossposted and got beaten to mentioning Jeskai Charm. I do think it's better than it looks, even though most of the time you'll only use the buff/lifelink mode.

P.P.S Edit: Ooooh Honor the Fallen seems spicy. Lifegain and graveyard hate is a current hole in the deck, this is sunforger eligible, and it's an instant... seems sweet.

[shermanido37]

As an Ephara, God of the Polis player, I love Kykar and envy his color identity. Jeskai is much cooler than azorius.
However, I have several disagreements with your list:
Firstly, you have no real way of card advantage. Beyond Skullclamp and the Delve cards, all your draw spells do not impact the total number of cards in hand. Looting and stacking the yard is fine, but only if you are heavily graveyard oriented, which it seems to me like you aren't. Plus, you never know what you're going to face in EDH, and your cards leave plenty of counterplay options - if Cathartic Reunion is countered, your opponent traded 3 of yours for one of theirs. If someone resolves an effect like Mindslicer or Sire of Insanity, you can't even cast it. Therefore I suggest you replace your more conditional cards like the red Reunion and Thrill, in favor of more solid cards like Fact or Fiction, Mystic Remora (you can easily pay the cumulative upkeep with your spirits), etc. - you could even consider cards like Wheel of Fortune.
Secondly, I find your attempt at token buffs disappointing. Eldrazi Monument's flying is redundant, and as mentioned indestructible may not be enough, and Unbreakable Formation is mediocre at best. Instead, I suggest Intangible Virtue to slowly poke at your opponents without sacrificing defense (very Jeskai) - and it's also cheaper, and an enchantment instead of an artifact which is harder to kill. I also suggest Teferi's Protection - that is one card which will surely protect you AND your board if it resolves.
Thirdly, there's a card that will enable you to cause MASSIVE shenanigans, and that is Mana Echoes. Play noncreature, get spirit, get TONS of mana to fuel into a giant X spell. It could even be free if it's a red spell.
Fourthly, I really feel like recommending Stoke the Flames. If you have two spirits out this card is free, and can have plenty of uses, from killing PWs or creatures to hitting players for a surprise lethal. I know this is EDH so 4 damage isn't all that much, but the card has proven to be useful in several formats.

Sorry for the wall of text. Hope I was helpful.

[MeowZeDung]

As an Ephara, God of the Polis player, I love Kykar and envy his color identity. Jeskai is much cooler than azorius.

I love Azorius, and Ephara, as well! But I agree, Jeskai (and Izzet!) are cooler

However, I have several disagreements with your list:
Firstly, you have no real way of card advantage. Beyond Skullclamp and the Delve cards, all your draw spells do not impact the total number of cards in hand. Looting and stacking the yard is fine, but only if you are heavily graveyard oriented, which it seems to me like you aren't. Plus, you never know what you're going to face in EDH, and your cards leave plenty of counterplay options - if Cathartic Reunion is countered, your opponent traded 3 of yours for one of theirs. If someone resolves an effect like Mindslicer or Sire of Insanity, you can't even cast it. Therefore I suggest you replace your more conditional cards like the red Reunion and Thrill, in favor of more solid cards like Fact or Fiction, Mystic Remora (you can easily pay the cumulative upkeep with your spirits), etc. - you could even consider cards like Wheel of Fortune.

I understand what you are getting at here, and I have certainly considered including things like Fact or Fiction and Rhystic Study (as mentioned in the card choices section).

However, I think you may be overlooking the power of cheap, and I mean *cheap*, card selection. I routinely churn through 1/2 to 3/4 of my library with this deck, sometimes never having more than 3 or 4 cards in hand. I've found that I need less sources of raw card advantage when I'm casting 5+ cantrips per turn and getting Jeskai Ascendancy loot/buff triggers each time.

When that kind of thing happens, and it often does, just hitting one source of raw card advantage is usually more than enough. While all these cantrips may not be card advantage, it's important to note that they replace themselves at a minimum and are *not* card disadvantage like an average creature spell would be.

Furthermore, they nearly always trigger Kykar and 1-2 other token generators, and even if you only count a token as 0.5 cards, each cantrip is actually gaining card advantage in that sense.

I will grant you that Cathartic Reunion and Thrill of Possibility are more conditional than the other cheap spells in the deck, but the key is they let me see a bunch more cards and they are cheap, possibly even free if I want to eat some spirits to pay for them, while also triggering my token engines. That said, they are probably first on the chopping block to make room for Reverberate and Electrodominance.

You may just be used to more cutthroat metas, but I just can't see anyone bothering to use their counterspell on a cathartic reunion. You're right that it's a total blowout if they do, but most players I've encountered want their counter in hand for when someone tries to resolve game ending spells like Tooth and Nail or Cyclonic Rift.

Also, since we are discussing card advantage and looting to the yard: let's not forget about one of the deck's biggest sources of card advantage in Past in Flames! Even Mystic Retrieval as an expensive but very precise source of card advantage makes for sick plays out of the yard.

Secondly, I find your attempt at token buffs disappointing. Eldrazi Monument's flying is redundant, and as mentioned indestructible may not be enough, and Unbreakable Formation is mediocre at best. Instead, I suggest Intangible Virtue to slowly poke at your opponents without sacrificing defense (very Jeskai) - and it's also cheaper, and an enchantment instead of an artifact which is harder to kill. I also suggest Teferi's Protection - that is one card which will surely protect you AND your board if it resolves.
Thirdly, there's a card that will enable you to cause MASSIVE shenanigans, and that is Mana Echoes. Play noncreature, get spirit, get TONS of mana to fuel into a giant X spell. It could even be free if it's a red spell.

Young Pyromancer, Monastery Mentor, Metallurgic Summonings, and Saheeli, Sublime Artificer disagree with your assessment of Eldrazi Monument's flying as redundant. As far as the indestructibility not being enough: sure sometimes Evacuation or Merciless Eviction gets around it, but it insures me against the majority of board wipes and it makes combat easy peasy.

I think some of y'all are sleeping on Unbreakable Formation! Sunforger eligible: check. Instant speed defensive ace in the hole: check. PERMANENT token buff that can be used offensively for a risk free combat step: check. Triggers Kykar and friends: check. This card is great here, and I think it will take it disappointing me several times to move me off of it to be honest.

I did use to run Intangible Virtue which is a great card! The only reason I don't run it here currently is to keep the instant/sorcery count as high as possible in the deck. Being an enchantment, it only triggers Kykar and a couple other token generators. I'm prioritizing synergy above general goodstuff in this deck.

Teferi's Protection is $40 and Mana Echoes is $25

Fourthly, I really feel like recommending Stoke the Flames. If you have two spirits out this card is free, and can have plenty of uses, from killing PWs or creatures to hitting players for a surprise lethal. I know this is EDH so 4 damage isn't all that much, but the card has proven to be useful in several formats.

I loved this card in limited and standard. I even ran it for a minute in a budget modern deck! That said, 4 damage in EDH is definitely not much, and I'm currently running Boros Charm which does this and has additional flexibility, plus Jeskai Charm exists if I want more anti-planeswalker tech that also deals direct damage, but in charm's case also gives a buff and lifelink to my tokens if I want it to.

Sorry for the wall of text. Hope I was helpful.

It was definitely helpful! I appreciate my deckbuilding choices being challenged because it forces me to think deeply about what I'm doing and either defend it or open my stubborn eyes and make adjustments :laugh:

I will certainly keep your points in mind, particularly the one about card advantage! At the very least Fact or Fiction is on the cusp of being in the deck, and you make a good case for why.

[MeowZeDung]

Fourthly, I really feel like recommending Stoke the Flames. If you have two spirits out this card is free

I just noticed an issue here that I think is worth clarifying, because it was news to me as well! If you are using your spirits to convoke a spell (I learned this while trying to convoke Hour of Reckoning) you cannot sacrifice them for mana to pay for casting the same spell they just tapped to help convoke. So in other words, you could not tap two spirits to convoke 2 toward Stoke the Flames, then sac them for the RR in stoke. I'm no judge, but I believe the issue is timing with state based actions or some such where you can't activate a sacrifice ability while paying a casting cost, you have to do it before or after paying the casting cost.

That said, stoke would be free with 4 spirits out because you could just tap them all and sacrifice none of them, or sac them all if they were already tapped and it's post combat

Gosh I miss Stoke the Flames. . . and Triplicate Spirits. . . and Devouring Light. . . and Return to the Ranks. . . M15 was such an underrated set. I played so many Ensoul Artifact, Scrapyard Mongrel, Goblin Kaboomist, and Aeronaut Tinkerer decks

[shermanido37]

I forgot about the part with Convoke not working out that way! That is disappointing, though I guess it's good that some interactions aren't that broken...

My meta has several copies of Glen-Elendra Archmage and some more counterspells, and there are definitely some people that - if they see you putting yourself in a compromising position - will not hesitate to take advantage regardless of the board state. So countering a Cathartic Reunion is much more likely than you would think.
My meta also has some Rule of Law and Spirit of the Labyrinth effects which greatly hinder your game plan.
My point is that overall it seems like your deck is a bit of a glass cannon, and I feel that it's a bit vulnerable. If someone were to play something that's truly a threat to you, you would probably have little to no way of dealing with it. Sunforger is a great and can bring out some amazing clutch moves, but it can also be pretty expensive and as an equipment it can be disrupted with relative ease.

[MeowZeDung]

My point is that overall it seems like your deck is a bit of a glass cannon, and I feel that it's a bit vulnerable. If someone were to play something that's truly a threat to you, you would probably have little to no way of dealing with it. Sunforger is a great and can bring out some amazing clutch moves, but it can also be pretty expensive and as an equipment it can be disrupted with relative ease.

True, except for maybe the bit about being unable to deal with threats. I think there's a pretty deep suite of high quality removal in the deck. As with any deck, threat assessment and politics are as important or even more important than the actual answers available.

Like I say in the opening post, this deck is not cEDH worthy by any stretch of the imagination, but it ain't your daddy's precon either. It's certainly not going to win them all (it wouldn't be fun for me personally if it did), and it's weaker to things like stax/control than, say, grave pact or aggro decks. However, it can get ahead of the rest of the table quickly and have some explosive wins while also doing some of my favorite things in magic.

[MeowZeDung]

Well, I think Impact Tremors is certainly as good as advertised. I got to play one casual game with Kykar this weekend, and it was a quick one.

T2 Talisman → T3 Kykar → T4 Monastery Mentor and Impact Tremors → T5 spellslinging cantrip nonsense, attack opponent with Kykar and a bloated Mentor and Monk token. Postcombat I skullclamped the only 1/1 monk and a couple of spirits → T6 opponent was already down to 19 from Impact Tremors and my attack and I had 5 prowess monks plus Kykar and a spirit. GG.

[OCPunisher]

Well, I think Impact Tremors is certainly as good as advertised. I got to play one casual game with Kykar this weekend, and it was a quick one.

T2 Talisman → T3 Kykar → T4 Monastery Mentor and Impact Tremors → T5 spellslinging cantrip nonsense, attack opponent with Kykar and a bloated Mentor and Monk token. Postcombat I skullclamped the only 1/1 monk and a couple of spirits → T6 opponent was already down to 19 from Impact Tremors and my attack and I had 5 prowess monks plus Kykar and a spirit. GG.

I had a game on Friday night with almost the exact same first few turns, except with Jeskai Ascendancy instead of Tremors. One of the best things about this deck is the ability to answer just about any kind of threat, and at a reasonable cost no less. This deck is rapidly moving up the power level ladder, and that's just fine.

[MeowZeDung]

I had a game on Friday night with almost the exact same first few turns, except with Jeskai Ascendancy instead of Tremors.

Oh my. Believe it or not I've never had both Monastery Mentor and Jeskai Ascendancy out at the same time yet, but I can't wait until the day that happens.