Greven, Predator Captain - No Pain No Gain

[darrenhabib]

Another card that offers Greven protection is Not of This World. It cost you no mana with Greven as you really can lose two life easily at most stages of the game, and foolishly opponents tend to wait till your turn to remove him. It does make sense in that they want you to spend mana first on things like creature fodder first, so that you don't have mana to recast him, but this ends up back firing as you can lose life more easily in your turn and the Not of This World is free to cast.

Honestly the most satisfying and best plays are when you cast a Imp's Mischief or Bolt Bend or Not of This World and your opponents are just flummoxed, followed by a slow clap and then the word "GG", as they have put all their stock into their removal spell to save them and they also think 100% it's going to work.

With far less additional attack cards Inner Fire has been less impressive.

• Not of This World

• Inner Fire

[3drinks]

I'm not sure I'm digging might makes right @ the six slot, but I suppose repeatable threaten is costed appropriately at that. Anyway it's a budget card, so it doesn't exactly hurt to add to cart.

[darrenhabib]

Well I've been carving up opponents with this deck the last couple of days. I've really been winning a lot and even surprising myself with the amount of pressure I can lay on all the opponents.
It's often 3vs1, because he is so threatening and even though they know he is coming for them, because of the amount of card draw he generates it's just really hard to stop the momentum of his attacks.
All day yesterday I was just systematically eliminating the strongest players in a couple of attacks so that they didn't have time to setup their bullsh*t. Very satisfying.

I've made some further changes with more protection in the form of Kaya's Ghostform and Undying Evil. By far the biggest success of the deck has come off as much protection as you can give him to surprise opponents trying to deal with him.

I also added Dismember as a great combat trick, so that blocking him is always going to end up a blow out for opponent, plus the life loss can be used as a pump spell if needing to get in another 4 commander damage.

Mindslicer is a great creature to sacrifice as you refill your hand immediately, while opponents lose theirs. Pretty much game winning honestly.

If you can't afford Imperial Seal (I mean who can?) then Scheming Symmetry is fine. The idea is that you can put a really important card on top pre-combat, like a lifelink instant or even Fire Covenant to clear the way and kill the opponent you've chosen to search their library.

• Kaya's Ghostform
• Undying Evil
• Dismember
• Imperial Seal

• Rite of Consumption
• Blood-Chin Fanatic
• Ilharg, the Raze-Boar
• Defense Grid

I wasn't sacrificing Greven to the Rite of Consumption and Blood-Chin Fanatic enough times to warrant them. It's just better to try and protect him and get in that lifelink damage to recover life loss.

Defense Grid wasn't putting in enough work over games I believe.

Although I've had some good games with Ilharg, the Raze-Boar, I've often found myself not wanting to put him back on top of library after removal because he felt a bit slow. He is no true Sneak Attack.

[Myllior]

Mindslicer is a great creature to sacrifice as you refill your hand immediately, while opponents lose theirs. Pretty much game winning honestly.

Correct me if I'm wrong, or if I'm missing another interaction or am otherwise misunderstanding you, but I don't think this works. Since sacrificing the creature is part of the resolution of Greven's ability, you would sacrifice Mindslicer, draw cards and lose life, then Mindslicer's ability would go on the stack and make everyone discard. This seems to be supported by his Gatherer page; the last ruling given for him is: "You sacrifice a creature (or choose not to), draw cards, and lose life all while Greven's triggered ability is resolving. Nothing can happen in between, and no player may choose to take actions."

Other than that, wanted to say that this deck looks like a blast to play. I love that you're running Malignus, since those sorts of explosive, high-risk and high-reward plays are some of my favourite parts of Commander. If I decide to retire my current Voltron commander, I'll definitely give this a look to replace it.

[darrenhabib]

Mindslicer is a great creature to sacrifice as you refill your hand immediately, while opponents lose theirs. Pretty much game winning honestly.

Correct me if I'm wrong, or if I'm missing another interaction or am otherwise misunderstanding you, but I don't think this works. Since sacrificing the creature is part of the resolution of Greven's ability, you would sacrifice Mindslicer, draw cards and lose life, then Mindslicer's ability would go on the stack and make everyone discard. This seems to be supported by his Gatherer page; the last ruling given for him is: "You sacrifice a creature (or choose not to), draw cards, and lose life all while Greven's triggered ability is resolving. Nothing can happen in between, and no player may choose to take actions."

Other than that, wanted to say that this deck looks like a blast to play. I love that you're running Malignus, since those sorts of explosive, high-risk and high-reward plays are some of my favourite parts of Commander. If I decide to retire my current Voltron commander, I'll definitely give this a look to replace it.

You are right. Thought you could stack them but you cant.

[3drinks]

I just spent a chunk of change investing into this guy. List will look somewhat similar to the list I shared before, but there's some hard design changes I'm leaning on. Can't wait to share that as my cards arrive.

I'm going a bit more wide and less all-in. I don't like the over-reliance on one card they can see a mile away, no matter how powerful that one card is.

[3drinks]

Have we discussed wurmcoil? Provides three sacs, and with enough reanimation it's reliable. It's also a large lifelink body.

I suspect Batterskull is a better choice though.

[darrenhabib]

Have we discussed wurmcoil? Provides three sacs, and with enough reanimation it's reliable. It's also a large lifelink body.

I suspect Batterskull is a better choice though.

I have been looking for another creature, I have found myself with explosive opening starts with mana but waiting for a good creature to sacrifice to Greven. This makes sense in that you're more likely to have artifact mana, rituals, etc in your early game if you haven't drawn creatures. But still I feel like at least one more creature will make for more consistency. However 6 mana is a little too much, even if you do get the bonus of two creatures.

So far I've got these as potentials;
Bloodrage Brawler
Blistering Barrier, Master of the Feast, Phylactery Lich, Cosmic Larva, Rage Nimbus.
Blistering Firecat, Deep-Slumber Titan, Hazoret the Fervent, Lodestone Golem, Scorchwalker, Spikewheel Acrobat, Territorial Hellkite, Traxos, Scourge of Kroog

At this stage I'm going to go with Scorchwalker as you can use the bloodrush to get additional card draw from a creature already in play, or just directly give Greven the +5/+1 as a combat trick, maybe if you draw it with the sacrifice and need to kill a player immediately.

[3drinks]

Oh yeah. Deep slumber titan is a thing that exists. Really should have added that since I'm all in on pestilence effects.........

FWIW wurmcoil missed the cut in my build too, so I think your assessment is accurate.

[xeroxedfool]

I picked up the stuff I needed for this deck. Pretty excited to test it out.

[3drinks]

So I finally settled on a first list.

Greven, Predator Captain

DecklistCMCManaPricesChartsDraw 7

Commander (1)

1 Greven, Predator Captain

Land (36)

1 Ancient Tomb

1 Arid Mesa

1 Badlands

1 Blood Crypt

1 Bloodstained Mire

1 Cavern of Souls

1 City of Brass

1 Command Tower

1 Graven Cairns

1 Hall of the Bandit Lord

1 Mana Confluence

1 Marsh Flats

1 Mouth of Ronom

1 Polluted Delta

1 Prismatic Vista

1 Scalding Tarn

4 Snow-Covered Mountain

12 Snow-Covered Swamp

1 Strip Mine

1 Verdant Catacombs

1 Wasteland

1 Wooded Foothills

Enchantment (10)

1 Animate Dead

1 Bitterblossom

1 Blood Moon

1 Gift of Doom

1 Necromancy

1 Pestilence

1 Pyrohemia

1 Repercussion

1 Vampiric Link

1 Withering Wisps

Creature (14)

1 Anger

1 Bloodghast

1 Bloodsoaked Champion

1 Combat Celebrant

1 Dark Confidant

1 Doom Whisperer

1 Eldrazi Obligator

1 Flametongue Kavu

1 Golden Guardian

1 Heartless Hidetsugu

1 Noxious Gearhulk

1 Squee, the Immortal

1 Vindictive Lich

1 Wurmcoil Engine

Sorcery (13)

1 Ashes to Ashes

1 Chandra's Ignition

1 Demonic Tutor

1 Diabolic Intent

1 Goatnap

1 Grim Tutor

1 Hellfire

1 Infernal Contract

1 Night's Whisper

1 Reanimate

1 Toxic Deluge

1 Vandalblast

1 Wildfire

Instant (13)

1 Act of Aggression

1 Dismember

1 Entomb

1 Fire Covenant

1 Hatred

1 Imp's Mischief

1 Psychotic Fury

1 Rescue from the Underworld

1 Skred

1 Soul's Fire

1 Tainted Strike

1 Temur Battle Rage

1 Vampiric Tutor

Artifact (13)

1 Arcum's Astrolabe

1 Basilisk Collar

1 Batterskull

1 Bolas's Citadel

1 Coldsteel Heart

1 Crucible of Worlds

1 Lightning Greaves

1 Mana Crypt

1 Mimic Vat

1 Predator, Flagship

1 Sol Ring

1 Sword of War and Peace

1 Talisman of Indulgence

Approximate Total Cost:

Deckstats: https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/17-08-1 ... 1566912603

[xeroxedfool]

Arcum's Astrolabe seems very low impact for a commander deck like this one.

[3drinks]

Arcum's Astrolabe seems very low impact for a commander deck like this one.

Its one mana to replace itself and effortlessly colour fix. Like Git Probe, it's like we're playing 98 cards.........

[xeroxedfool]

It doesn't do anything. You could run a Signet or Sign in Blood or almost any card. I could see running Astrolabe in Sai or Urza but not in Greven.

[3drinks]

Its also another snow permanent for Skred count.

[darrenhabib]

So I finally settled on a first list.

Tell me how Golden Guardian performs? It's a card I've marked for wanting to try. Eldrazi Obligator is another that I want to slot into the deck.

I can see that you've gone for some Vorthos flavor with Predator, Flagship as unfortunately you'll find it completely over-costed for it's rewards.

Kari Zev's Expertise is a straight upgrade over Goatnap.

I personally don't like Tainted Strike as it voids your lifelink, and trust me this is a big deal when it comes alpha striking an opponent and hoping that the other opponents can't kill you.
On that note I feel like you have too many cards that are tied in with Greven and not enough ways to guarantee value with his creature sacrificing ability.
I play 22 creatures and this is the low end for consistency of having a creature to sacrifice on first attack.
Now you are playing a slower tempo deck, so you are going to be casting and attacking with him much later in the game, but still you only have 14 creatures. You do have virtual creatures in Animate Dead, Necromancy, Act of Aggression, Goatnap, but It's still a really low number.
Then you also play cards like Temur Battle Rage, Psychotic Fury, Hatred, Sword of War and Peace, Repercussion, Soul's Fire to get in extra damage with him specifically.
If you are playing cards that rely on Greven for damage, then you are better off investing into creatures that can most importantly draw you cards. Drawing cards is the most important words you'll hear in all of Magic.

Crucible of Worlds is going to be wasted as you're going to be super flooded once the Greven train is rolling. Using Strip Mine and Wasteland with Crucible of Worlds when you don't have additional ways to play out lands is not a game winning plan as it's a 0-2 for a couple of your opponents when you are using them this way.

I did find Loxodon Warhammer to be too slow, so I imagine Batterskull is going to fall under this as well. At least you can sacrifice the Germ token to Greven for some draw, but the equipping for 5 is going to seem galaxies away during most games that you want to deploy cards.

You realistically never have the mana up for Rescue from the Underworld. Your either going to be holding up mana on the hopes that your opponents play removal, but by doing that you are going to get way too far behind in deploying spells proactively. If your simply using it as a reanimation spell in your turn, then it's just an expensive reanimation card.
I swear by my protection suite, honestly they've made the deck next level.

With your recoverable creatures Bloodghast, Bloodsoaked Champion, Squee, the Immortal, Bitterblossom you could look at Black Moon (Contamination) to go with further mana denial.

The Wildfire will provide blow outs some games. Brutal.

You don't have enough life-gain in the deck for my liking. The Batterskull and Sword of War and Peace are not reliable for gaining life, so you are down to Basilisk Collar and Vampiric Link. You are losing so much life in this deck that'll you'll find yourself unable to operate some of your cards as the game goes on.

[Stapler]

I personally don't like Tainted Strike as it voids your lifelink, and trust me this is a big deal when it comes alpha striking an opponent and hoping that the other opponents can't kill you.

Actually, infect works just fine with lifelink. If you read Tainted Strike's oracle page on gatherer you'll see infect damage works the same way as "regular" damage in almost every way (deathtouch functions as normal, it triggers Swords of X and Y, Coastal Piracy etc.).

[3drinks]

Yes, I did opt for the slower tempo build. I cant just over commit to one high risk high reward play, if I did, I'd just keep playing Kaalia.

Recoverable creatures lead to getting a +2 for one life and a negligible recur cost. But I'm under the impression that you would prefer getting a +5 or better off each trigger? Am I being too cautious?

Am I too over reliant on Greven effects? My initial vision was that pestilence effects were the best and most consistent ways to get him going. Is that the old school in me?

Similar to wildfire, will tectonic break and boom // bust function the same? I've got my reservations since it cant wipe creatures too. I don't like contamination here since it could lock me out of Greven.

I fully acknowledge that Predator is bad as giving my first creature flying for 7 is horrible. Similar to bad flavorful cards, I want to add starke of rath too, which I think is good with my threatens but I don't have enough threatens anyway. I should add my tempest diabolic edict though for obvious reasons (I'm still upset I can't play Greven's own first mate :/ ).

Crucible's actual role is to infini-fetch and recur mouth of ronom really, not just strip lock but yes if I'm drawing every turn like this then crucible would feel redundant.

Am I too heavy on Greven cards? I've had pestilence effects pegged since day one as the most consistent ways to turn up Greven while also controlling the board. Is this just the old school in me? Similarly, I bet Grave tits would be extra fantastic here for endless fodder, although it's back to that +2 instead of that big draw you seem to favour.

I'm excited to try golden guardian! I enjoyed it in Goreclaw a lot and this feels similar to it's role there.

[Mention]darrenhabib[/mention]

[darrenhabib]

I picked up the stuff I needed for this deck. Pretty excited to test it out.

Awesome. I've actually just added a new section "Playing the Deck", which will hopefully give you some insight into how I approach and sequence a lot of turns.

[darrenhabib]

I personally don't like Tainted Strike as it voids your lifelink, and trust me this is a big deal when it comes alpha striking an opponent and hoping that the other opponents can't kill you.

Actually, infect works just fine with lifelink. If you read Tainted Strike's oracle page on gatherer you'll see infect damage works the same way as "regular" damage in almost every way (deathtouch functions as normal, it triggers Swords of X and Y, Coastal Piracy etc.).

That's good to know. Looks like even the -1/-1 counters still cause damage for the lifelink effects?

[darrenhabib]

Yes, I did opt for the slower tempo build. I cant just over commit to one high risk high reward play, if I did, I'd just keep playing Kaalia.

Recoverable creatures lead to getting a +2 for one life and a negligible recur cost. But I'm under the impression that you would prefer getting a +5 or better off each trigger? Am I being too cautious?

Yes is the simply answer. Now the recoverable creatures are when you don't have bigger payoff creatures to sacrifice, something is better than nothing. But don't look for these to be "the things you sacrifice" each turn.

Am I too over reliant on Greven effects? My initial vision was that pestilence effects were the best and most consistent ways to get him going. Is that the old school in me?

I think the Pestilence plan is a good one. Removing creatures (power 4 or lesss) to keep Greven in play is going to put serious pressure and opponents in need of answers, as they can't rely on blockers.
I'm specifically not a huge fan of Temur Battle Rage, Psychotic Fury, Hatred, Sword of War and Peace, Soul's Fire when you could be playing creatures that can also provide damage (as well as the draw).
If your creature count was higher then I wouldn't mention it, but it's really low.
My suggestion is you can give these a go to get a feel for tempo with your above cards, but I want you to try a game where you replace these cards specifically with Lightning Skelemental, Ball Lightning, Lupine Prototype, Rotting Regisaur, Mijae Djinn, Inferno Hellion.
I feel like once you get a taste of the card draw tempo, you'll have a better understanding why if you are going to play cards that rely on Greven and are designed to cause additional damage, then you're better off with getting massive draw as well.

Similar to wildfire, will tectonic break and boom // bust function the same? I've got my reservations since it cant wipe creatures too. I don't like contamination here since it could lock me out of Greven.

The creature kill is key for this plan. Land destruction on it's own would set you back too much. With Wildfire It's got to be this exact window where it's good, but at 6 mana you will be waiting for this anyway.

I fully acknowledge that Predator is bad as giving my first creature flying for 7 is horrible. Similar to bad flavorful cards, I want to add starke of rath too, which I think is good with my threatens but I don't have enough threatens anyway. I should add my tempest diabolic edict though for obvious reasons (I'm still upset I can't play Greven's own first mate :/ ).

All good

Crucible's actual role is to infini-fetch and recur mouth of ronom really, not just strip lock but yes if I'm drawing every turn like this then crucible would feel redundant.

I promise you in a thousand games you'll never use Mouth of Ronom once in a Greven deck, there is simply too many other things to do with your mana and draw.

[3drinks]

Yes is the simply answer. Now the recoverable creatures are when you don't have bigger payoff creatures to sacrifice, something is better than nothing. But don't look for these to be "the things you sacrifice" each turn.

I think the Pestilence plan is a good one. Removing creatures (power 4 or less) to keep Greven in play is going to put serious pressure and opponents in need of answers, as they can't rely on blockers.
I'm specifically not a huge fan of Temur Battle Rage, Psychotic Fury, Hatred, Sword of War and Peace, Soul's Fire when you could be playing creatures that can also provide damage (as well as the draw).

If your creature count was higher then I wouldn't mention it, but it's really low.
My suggestion is you can give these a go to get a feel for tempo with your above cards, but I want you to try a game where you replace these cards specifically with Lightning Skelemental, Ball Lightning, Lupine Prototype, Rotting Regisaur, Mijae Djinn, Inferno Hellion.
I feel like once you get a taste of the card draw tempo, you'll have a better understanding why if you are going to play cards that rely on Greven and are designed to cause additional damage, then you're better off with getting massive draw as well.

The creature kill is key for this plan. Land destruction on it's own would set you back too much. With Wildfire It's got to be this exact window where it's good, but at 6 mana you will be waiting for this anyway.

I promise you in a thousand games you'll never use Mouth of Ronom once in a Greven deck, there is simply too many other things to do with your mana and draw.

So I have too many 2/1s, and would be better off with just Squee since no one can really do away with him, he's always around for 1RR.

My initial comment was going to be about playing cards that are only good with Greven, in regards to the ball lightnings I have to play precombat, but then when I realize I'm doing this anyway with a different suite of cards, my comment seems ill-placed at best. Hah. I do think there's still merit to Hatred itself as for 8 life you can knock someone out of the game (8*2 = 16 + base 5 power = 21 cmdr damage) plus it's also got the Vorthos thing going for you. It is literally Greven. Similarly, I'm not sold on Lupine Prototype because it exists only to get sac'd. I feel like I want it to do something else, even if it triggered a warstorm surge (example) or some such. Regisaur and the Djinn are good though. Hmm, I bet I can swap the Prototype with Hunted Horror and bonus, this gives me targets for my threatens. Inferno Hellion reminds me I initially was really excited for Volcano Hellion, which I think is clearing blocks and also setting up a Greven kill effortlessly. I think Soul's Fire can be good as an instant, but yeah, it's not a cmdr kill so it's a bit conditionally good. It should be the first fling you go for though, should you go that route.

Sitting on wildfire for just a moment more, what about Ruination? Since I've slanted my mana in such a way so as to minimize the iMPACT of it.

So Mouth of Ronom would serve me better as a basic snow swamp then, is what I'm hearing (for withering wisps). Alternatively, I could just go with thawing glaciers to keep getting those lands out. I'm certainly not married to ronom anyway. Glaciers could then justify a rakdos carnarium and.....now I'm reaching a bit too far and it isn't necessary.

[3drinks]

SCD: Ankh of Mishra, Zo-zu the Punisher, Eidolon of the Great Revel?

[darrenhabib]

So I have too many 2/1s, and would be better off with just Squee since no one can really do away with him, he's always around for 1RR.

Not necessarily, you only have the 4 recurring creature sources, so if you've got a low creature count in the first place, at least you want to have something. I'd be inclined to keep them all in.

My initial comment was going to be about playing cards that are only good with Greven, in regards to the ball lightnings I have to play precombat, but then when I realize I'm doing this anyway with a different suite of cards, my comment seems ill-placed at best. Hah. I do think there's still merit to Hatred itself as for 8 life you can knock someone out of the game (8*2 = 16 + base 5 power = 21 cmdr damage) plus it's also got the Vorthos thing going for you. It is literally Greven. Similarly, I'm not sold on Lupine Prototype because it exists only to get sac'd. I feel like I want it to do something else, even if it triggered a warstorm surge (example) or some such. Regisaur and the Djinn are good though. Hmm, I bet I can swap the Prototype with Hunted Horror and bonus, this gives me targets for my threatens. Inferno Hellion reminds me I initially was really excited for Volcano Hellion, which I think is clearing blocks and also setting up a Greven kill effortlessly. I think Soul's Fire can be good as an instant, but yeah, it's not a cmdr kill so it's a bit conditionally good. It should be the first fling you go for though, should you go that route.

I think I mentioned it before but Hatred is still deece as you can use it for card draw. Here is a great example of using a creature like Bloodghast as a target for Hatred to get draw as well as setting up lethal with Greven. You might have it in the graveyard and can play a land to get it into play so you still have all your mana available.
There is where your small-ball creatures are a bit better than mine for this card. In my case I'm normally casting a 3-4 mana creature pre-combat, and so I simply don't have mana available for Hatred.
So yeah better in your deck, not so good in mine

Sitting on wildfire for just a moment more, what about Ruination? Since I've slanted my mana in such a way so as to minimize the iMPACT of it.

Killing lands and shutting down mana with Blood Moon are always going to win particular games at particular times.
But at the same time a green ramp deck can easily play around Ruination and Blood Moon and you are wishing that your deck was more focused on applying lethal damage to them.
So honestly I'm on the fence with these plans. I can see that you can cast Greven and then destroy lands next turn, and it shuts off 70% of the persons hand, which might have allow them to deal with Greven, but no longer can.
I think the stronger the opponents decks are the more effective Ruination and Blood Moon will be, so I'll have to say at least give them a go.

So Mouth of Ronom would serve me better as a basic snow swamp then, is what I'm hearing (for withering wisps). Alternatively, I could just go with thawing glaciers to keep getting those lands out. I'm certainly not married to ronom anyway. Glaciers could then justify a rakdos carnarium and.....now I'm reaching a bit too far and it isn't necessary.

I would suggest staying away from anything that is tapped or delayed. The only exception being Hall of the Bandit Lord.
I love me a Thawing Glaciers in the right deck, but Rakdos is not the place. If Scaretiller and Walking Atlas were already naturally in the deck, I'd say sure give it go.

[3drinks]

Adding on to my SCD above, in developing Zenith Kaalia, I ran across Mortuary. Normally locking your top deck is bad but Kaalia had the ability to plow through the top six, negating the drawback. This enabled her to die, hit the yard and then top deck, and I could cast her for three to power through.

In Greven, we can do similar since we have access to burst draw (he doesn't need to attack to get his trigger). Stack him on top, then cast for five and move to combat, drawing a grip and effectively we negate his cmd tax and can keep rebuying the sac fodder. This is an avenue to explore, right?

I'm dumb, he does need to attack so this might not be strong enough.