Having Your Voice Heard

[lyonhaert]

Why are we talking about Flash again?

[pokken]

Why are we talking about Flash again?

Because people find it relevant to discussion of the divide between competitive and non-competitive EDH, and how that relates to the banlist philosophy.

Flash is a great card for testing whether the banlist philosophy can be safely tweaked the way many CEDH players are asking.

It's extremely relevant because the #1 complaint of "not being heard" by every CEDH player in the thread I've heard so far has been "We do not feel the philosophy appropriately addresses our concerns." And flash is, well, a flashpoint on which most of the CEDH folks seem to agree but many non-CEDH folks either don't care or would prefer not to have action taken that is based on competitive play.

[lyonhaert]

Why are we talking about Flash again?

Because people find it relevant to discussion of the divide between competitive and non-competitive EDH, and how that relates to the banlist philosophy.

Flash is a great card for testing whether the banlist philosophy can be safely tweaked the way many CEDH players are asking.

It's extremely relevant because the #1 complaint of "not being heard" by every CEDH player in the thread I've heard so far has been "We do not feel the philosophy appropriately addresses our concerns." And flash is, well, a flashpoint on which most of the CEDH folks seem to agree but many non-CEDH folks either don't care or would prefer not to have action taken that is based on competitive play.

It's a hot-button topic, sure. But discussing whether or not it should be banned is not the same as discussing how the RC can give the cEDH community a sense that they are seen and heard on their concerns. Thread's just going to end up locked again.

[pokken]

It's a hot-button topic, sure. But discussing whether or not it should be banned is not the same as discussing how the RC can give the cEDH community a sense that they are seen and heard on their concerns. Thread's just going to end up locked again.

My reading of the discussion was more of a meta-discussion of how the Flash ban relates to why a casual player might disagree with the assessment that banning "purely competitive" cards is harmless to the community -- which I think is extremely topical and important.

[Sinis]

My reading of the discussion was more of a meta-discussion of how the Flash ban relates to why a casual player might disagree with the assessment that banning "purely competitive" cards is harmless to the community -- which I think is extremely topical and important.

I agree.

Flash appears emblematic of how some cEDH feel like they're not being heard. On page two, [mention]Styrofoam[/mention] pointed out Flash's impact on cEDH, and seems to contend that leaving it legal is tantamount to impinging on their ability to enjoy the format.

(Please correct me if you don't believe that "leaving Flash unbanned" = "damaging cEDH players' enjoyment of the format", but I don't think I'm wrong here.)

cc: [mention]lyonhaert[/mention], since you asked how Flash is relevant.

[Styrofoam]

Why are we talking about Flash again?

Because people find it relevant to discussion of the divide between competitive and non-competitive EDH, and how that relates to the banlist philosophy.

Flash is a great card for testing whether the banlist philosophy can be safely tweaked the way many CEDH players are asking.

It's extremely relevant because the #1 complaint of "not being heard" by every CEDH player in the thread I've heard so far has been "We do not feel the philosophy appropriately addresses our concerns." And flash is, well, a flashpoint on which most of the CEDH folks seem to agree but many non-CEDH folks either don't care or would prefer not to have action taken that is based on competitive play.

Basically, this exactly.

[Styrofoam]

My reading of the discussion was more of a meta-discussion of how the Flash ban relates to why a casual player might disagree with the assessment that banning "purely competitive" cards is harmless to the community -- which I think is extremely topical and important.

I agree.

Flash appears emblematic of how some cEDH feel like they're not being heard. On page two, @Styrofoam pointed out Flash's impact on cEDH, and seems to contend that leaving it legal is tantamount to impinging on their ability to enjoy the format.

(Please correct me if you don't believe that "leaving Flash unbanned" = "damaging cEDH players' enjoyment of the format", but I don't think I'm wrong here.)

cc: @lyonhaert, since you asked how Flash is relevant.

it's a little more nuanced than just flat out "cEDH sucks and no one can ever have fun as long as flash is legal" so much as "Flash is format warping, nearly all games are solely about whether or not a flash can be cast and resolved, and if it is resolved the game ends." People can and do have some fun in those situations, but it limits choices, and games often become carbon copies of each other.

cEDH players and non cEDH players aren't that much different. We want interesting diverse games of magic. The difference is, our interactive games of magic happen between turns 1 and 5, and the games usually end around there. The non-cEDH players take those turns setting up for huge things, and then want cool interactive games after that point.

The difference is just scale. You're casting hay-makers that cost 5,6,7,8 mana, and our hay-makers are combos like Dramatic Reversal and Isochron scepter, or Doomsday, or demonic consultation + Labratory Maniac.


Paradox engine got in the way of people enjoying the diverse back and forth interactive magic everyone wanted to play at the casual tables. And flash is doing the same thing at the cEDH tables.

[cryogen]

To help divert some of the "why don't you think we listen and what can we do" discussion Sheldon posed in this thread, he has created a thread in the cEDH sub to discuss the current metagame. I would encourage any interested parties to mosey over there and discuss it, which should also help with the two concurrent topics being discussed here.

[Sinis]

"Flash is format warping, nearly all games are solely about whether or not a flash can be cast and resolved, and if it is resolved the game ends." People can and do have some fun in those situations, but it limits choices, and games often become carbon copies of each other.

I understand and sympathize that the way that Flash is being used makes games play out the same way, especially once players play Summoner's Pact to find Hulk, etc.

My problem with the logic of "so let's ban Flash" is that there are other broken things that haven't been discovered or explored yet, because they happen to cost more than 1U. Is it just going to be Demonic/Worldly/Sylvan/Vampiric/Imperial Seal + Hermit Druid? It's slower than Flash (by a fair margin!), but, I don't think it's all that different. Of the things that you said of Flash, many people said the same about Hermit Druid in the eons that Protean Hulk spent languishing on the ban list. That it was too fast for other strategies to compete, that it made games play out the same way, and (like many others have said) it didn't have a "fair, non-degenerate use".

My argument is, at this point, that the ban list and philosophy behind the format are not conducive to competitive play, and without many more bans, the same beast is going to rear its head. I think my comparison to the modern format is apt. Part of the modern banning philosophy seems to be that if a deck wins on turn 3, it gets regulated out of the format, and we've seen it in action time and again. The Commander banlist is not so heavy-handed by design. It has never been a secret that there are broken cards all over the place and that the format is degenerate if players include the right cards in their deck.

It will never be 'just about Flash'.

Edit to add: I think that the part of the format philosophy that doesn't consider banning for competitive purposes is basically shorthand for this argument. It's not that we can't do anything about it; it's that the problem is really, really big, especially without having done the groundwork that other formats have done. I know it might not sound like it, but I do appreciate your position; I just don't think there's a solution that will leave anyone happy without a crapton of work and a ban list that is much, much longer than it currently is. I also don't know how, at the end of that ton of work and ban list, if the non-competitive people will be happy. I will agree that messaging could be better than the boilerplate "we don't ban for competitive purposes", but, as blunt as it is, it's the bottom line with a lot of issues marching behind it.

[Styrofoam]

"Flash is format warping, nearly all games are solely about whether or not a flash can be cast and resolved, and if it is resolved the game ends." People can and do have some fun in those situations, but it limits choices, and games often become carbon copies of each other.

I understand and sympathize that the way that Flash is being used makes games play out the same way, especially once players play Summoner's Pact to find Hulk, or the cephalid breakfast combo pieces.

My problem with the logic of "so let's ban Flash" is that there are other broken things that haven't been discovered or explored yet, because they happen to cost more than 1U. Is it just going to be Demonic/Worldly/Sylvan/Vampiric/Imperial Seal + Hermit Druid? It's slower than Flash (by a fair margin!), but, I don't think it's all that different. Of the things that you said of Flash, many people said the same about Hermit Druid in the eons that Protean Hulk spent languishing on the ban list. That it was too fast for other strategies to compete, that it made games play out the same way, and (like many others have said) it didn't have a "fair, non-degenderate use".

My argument is, at this point, that the ban list and philosophy behind the format are not conducive to competitive play, and without many more bans, the same beast is going to rear its head. I think my comparison to the modern format is apt. Part of the modern banning philosophy seems to be that if a deck wins on turn 3, it gets regulated out of the format, and we've seen it in action time and again. The Commander banlist is not so heavy-handed by design. It has never been a secret that there are broken cards all over the place and that the format is degenerate if players include the right cards in their deck.

It will never be 'just about Flash'.

Edit to add: I think that the part of the format philosophy that doesn't consider banning for competitive purposes is basically shorthand for this argument. It's not that we can't do anything about it; it's that the problem is really, really big, especially without having done the groundwork that other formats have done. I know it might not sound like it, but I do appreciate your position; I just don't think there's a solution that will leave anyone happy without a crapton of work and a ban list that is much, much longer than it currently is. I also don't know how, at the end of that ton of work and ban list, if the non-competitive people will be happy. I will agree that messaging could be better than the boilerplate "we don't ban for competitive purposes", but, as blunt as it is, it's the bottom line with a lot of issues marching behind it.

You don't seem understand what makes flash so oppressive. AND you're using the slippery slope fallacy.

It's the nature of an instant speed win, that wins on top of other people's win, after everyone has expended their resources. There might be something down the line that is equal or worse than flash, and it would be worth hearing the cEDH players out then just like it is now, because they are edh players the same as anyone else. Does that mean that Flash necessarily should be banned, or that whatever is next absolutely should be banned if it comes up? no.

But it bears repeating that our voices shouldn't be discounted because we want to interact and play games that finish in 5 turns instead of 25 turns. Putting Flash on the table for discussion at the very least, goes a long way to making people feel like they belong.

[LabManiac_Cameron]

Hi [mention]Sheldon[/mention],
As many have said, the biggest reason that I have felt unheard is that the conversations between many RC members, and myself, start with the assumption that cEDH is and should be a separate format than EDH. Without the ability to shift the paradigm and consider that they are the same game. The view point that cEDH should be a separate format and that EDH is better when it is not broken tells me that I am not a person playing EDH and that I do not belong here. This has been the form of magic that I have enjoyed and loved for over a decade. The bannings and their impact has been minimal in regards to how big of a metaphorical knife in the side that view point and philosophy has been. I have been working for over three years to broaden awareness of power discrepancies, open communication for what the players want in a game and for overall better play experiences for everyone and the way that the philosophy document was worded, it was a slap in the face for everyone that didn't align with your view of the format.
While I greatly appreciate the work that has gone into this format over the long run, being told that I/we do not belong here, regardless of how much effort we have made to better EDH as a whole, has really made myself, the other cEDH content creators, and the cEDH community as a whole feel unheard.
By reading your posts over the last few days I am greatly heartened by the way things may be changing. And I am ever hopeful that we can find a way to enjoy ourselves in the format together.
Thanks,
-Cameron

[Sinis]

you're using the slippery slope fallacy.

It's not a slippery slope when it's well documented that, before Flash Hulk (because Hulk was banned) and the partner commanders (because they weren't printed yet), there existed 5c Hermit Druid decks that were fairly well explored on mtgthesource and other places dating back to at least 2011. Google "5c hermit druid edh" and you'll see exactly the same stuff said about Flash. Many of the Flash lists I see on tappedout are just those same decks developed back then, minus red, plus partners, Flash, and Hulk. Some of the early lists pre-date Lab Maniac's printing (we used Necrotic Ooze and a set of activated abilities to kill the table).

How do I know? I was there, in those conversations. The conversation about things like Flash is not new (no matter how badly you want to say "but it's really different", I don't think it is).

The conversation about how cEDH players are going to interact with or be considered by the RC, is. Discussing the details of how broken Flash is, however emblematic it is to the cEDH community's suffering, is beside the point. [mention]LabManiac_Cameron[/mention]'s post above mine is way more salient than any conversation about particular cards that could be on the ban list.

[Hissp]

Hi everyone,

I want to reframe a pillar of thought when it comes to Commander:

There are already a bunch of great competitive Magic formats to play. Commander doesn't want to be one of them—not because they don't have value, but because there's nothing else like it.

This quote is from [mention]Sheldon[/mention]'s article in StarCityGames last week.

There are NOT any other well-supported multiplayer formats in which you play against multiple opponents at the same time as a single player. Multiplayer free-for-all adds dimension to game play and decision-making that can't be replicated in 1v1 Magic. This is at the heart of why all of us -- no matter how competitive our decks -- love the Commander format.

Brawl is the only comparable substitute. There are 6 commander events at GP Denver happening this weekend. There's even a "Commander Fanatic Package" on sale. Brawl is literally nowhere to be found on the GP website.
I can play Commander on almost every day of the week in the city I live. I can't remember the last time I saw a Brawl event advertised.

A feasible competitive free-for-all substitute literally doesn't exist.

Some of my favorite memories playing Commander are from pre-con events at shops. Part of the

nothing else like it

is that so many people enjoy playing -- including the annual content Wizards produces -- decks at a power level FAR from what's most competitive. This richness in diversity is part of what makes Commander great! We just need to embrace it. I believe we can make Commander work for everyone

[Hermes_]

I understand that reddit isn't a preferred outlet for Sheldon and co, but perhaps a link to where they will be discussing something like "Hey, here's where this discussion is taking place" kind of thing? I've already been posting links to the discussions here. I also think a post that is just about why they don't do reddit would be helpful.

[cryogen]

I also think a post that is just about why they don't do reddit would be helpful.

I don't think that would be helpful at all. My recommendation would be for the mods there to reach out to him. At least from my experience trying to woo them back to a less than welcoming environment, the RC is always willing to listen to reason and respectful disagreements.

[Hermes_]

I also think a post that is just about why they don't do reddit would be helpful.

I don't think that would be helpful at all. My recommendation would be for the mods there to reach out to him. At least from my experience trying to woo them back to a less than welcoming environment, the RC is always willing to listen to reason and respectful disagreements.

I defer to your judgement on this

[toctheyounger]

End of the day I think it's up to Sheldon et al how they approach the community and whom they address based on who has reached out and where. For all that this thread has been a little tense here and there I think it's a damned good start. Granted, Nexus is a microcosm in the myriad ways Commander players can discuss their craft, so it'll never reach everyone. Nevertheless the discussion here has been quite productive to my mind.

I think it'd be worth them having discussions in a few places - Reddit, salvation, here, to a lesser degree the more common social media outlets like FB and Twitter (lesser degree purely because they get nasty so quickly and people think nothing of making garbage-filled %$#% instead of reasoned discussion) and just taking some of the more common threads from those discussions into account in addressing the community as a whole moving forward.

If they're wanting to be more formal with a widely distributed survey similar to Cryo's one from earlier this week would probably tell a lot - but I also think a lot of the subjective, qualitative information is lost in pie charts and numbers, and that's where the answers to this issue probably lie.

[Sheldon]

Cameron

I'm curious how you see the philosophy as a "knife in the side." The philosophy has been around since long before anyone thought of the term cEDH. If we're going to continue your metaphor, you (collectively) were the knife-wielders. The format established itself as a particular thing and gained popularity because of that thing. The message has always been "this is what we're doing, and it's okay if it's not what you want to do, but we're going to keep doing this thing." It was created specifically to be a haven from competitive Magic. Then some people who wanted something different came in and demanded that we do what they want instead. They yelled "you're not doing what we want" and we responded "yeah, we know, because we said we're doing this other thing." You're not the aggrieved party here, and as long as you attempt to paint yourselves as some kind of victims, we can't have a meaningful dialogue.

I was going to quit right there, but that doesn't do anything productive, and I'm on a mission to educate, not alienate.

If what you say is true about creating better player experiences, I'm going to assume that you do want do create a more welcoming environment for everyone. That's what I want too, even for the folks who want to upend our original intention. We're aware the format has grown. We're aware that there needs to be room for more than just battlecruiser Magic. We're also aware that you can't neatly bin everyone into casual or competitive. There are plenty of players who love the entire range of Commander experiences, who understand that Rule 0 is important and have a range of decks that can play at any or every level.

So here we are, and I'm listening. What's your perfect Commander world look like? How do we accommodate you while not destroying the format for the people for whom it was intended?

[Sheldon]

BTW, I'm willing to have this discussion in other places as well. I'd even consider reddit when it stops being actively hostile and troll-infested.

[Hermes_]

BTW, I'm willing to have this discussion in other places as well. I'd even consider reddit when it stops being actively hostile and troll-infested.

I sent a message to one of the members of the cEDH community leadership team and they are discussing what they can do. So they may reach out to you soon.

[FireStorm4056]

FWIW, I think it's very important to keep an ear to the ground at Reddit - quietly, if nothing else.

Often your biggest enemy is also your most honest critic. If you can dig past the extreme hostility and hyperbole, there is usually some element of underlying truth (or at least, common opinion/perspective) that is missed by avoiding the place... even if it isn't pleasant to visit.

[Toshi]

Off the top of my head these are the adjustments i'd consider. But as someone said above, i'd still be happy without changes.

- Lower commander damage to something like 16 (but keep seperate counts at all costs!), to make Voltron more viable. There are very few dangerously fast 8+ power commander options, 6 power commanders could 3 hit and all others would profit a lot more from (small) buffs.

- Lower life counts to 30 at least, to make aggro strategies more viable. A total of 90 instead of 120 life points to overcome would increase pressure by aggro decks on omni-present midrange, control and combo decks significantly. Also, things that interact akwardly with high life totals - e.g. Necropotence - get seriously nerved.

- Unban Biorhythm, Coalition Victory, Gifts Ungiven, Sway of the Stars and Worldfire. These are all fine compared to several unbanned cards.

- Ban Mana Crypt & Sol Ring. Outside of so called "c"EDH they warp regular gameplay too much and - at least by my experience - create unpleasant games.

- Consider banning Expropriate and maybe Cyclonic Rift. Both are only reasonably interacted with u decks. I know Rift has very few comparable alternatives, but i think its balancing is off.

[LabManiac_Cameron]

[mention]Sheldon[/mention],
Thanks for replying. Why don't I start with this premise, as I believe if I say the word competitive in any of it, it taints the view.

I started with a Dragon tribal EDH deck, it was back in the days before we had major internet sources for deck building and it was mainly all the dragons I had in my meager collection. From there I learned how to build decks and adapt to the playgroup that I was in. Some play groups really disliked any sort of combo, even on turn 30, they just wanted to swing for a combat damage victory. Others were okay with the game ending on turn 10, regardless of how it happened. Even others just wanted to make weird and complicated board states and work through those. Then after seven years of playing commander I found a group that played with really tuned decks. Things were very fast and interactive. Everyone was involved in the game and ended on turn 5. But it still took 45 minutes and no one was sad. I found a play group that enjoyed putting 11 spells on the stack at the same time, instead of casting 11/11's. From there I personally got interested in that style of play. It was very fun and engaging, there was a lot of nuance and intrigue in how the games turned out. When did you try to do something or when did you hold back. The piloting turned into a real art form. I found a new style of play that I hadn't seen in seven years of EDH and wanted to explore it. I still enjoy casting 11/11's and making weird board states, but I also enjoy trying to pilot through a giant stack. It isn't a case of superiority or inferiority. It is just a different perspective on the game, all within the same rules set. It was a big paradigm shift in order to get into it and it also could make for really unfun games if you were playing with people that were not prepared for it. So I started talking with people about it and started trying to help people become aware of this space within EDH. It wasn't something that you could do on your own and enjoy it, you needed your playgroup to take the dive with you to see if they would like it too. Or you needed to find other people who were interested in that style of play and try it with them.

That is how I got into playing tuned commander decks, how I started to create content and how I started to help other people try out this style of playing EDH in a fun an engaging way for the whole pod.

In my mind I'm still playing EDH, I haven't left the format. I haven't said there is something else. The name 'cEDH' is much less about competitive to me and is much more about the assumptions of play that will happen. I don't play in paid commander events. I'm a massive proponent against them. I would personally appreciate a event that had an entry fee for food and drinks and just had EDH pods firing all night. No prizes, just hanging out and playing together. I too agree that EDH IS and always should be a haven from competitive magic. I greatly enjoy that when I play with my friends that I am not in a tournament setting, that we can make mistakes and learn from them. That we can joke around and have fun. That there isn't extra stress of prizes or time limits or REL levels or anything else, besides the fun of hanging out with friends and having a good time.

The terms competitive EDH or cEDH isn't signifying that we are playing competitively at the heart. It is signifying that we are playing tuned decks and it provides a context for the level of tuning that the rule zero conversation is requesting. It quickly and succinctly states that we are wanting to play EDH at a tuned level and that if you are not wanting to play at that level of tuning, we either need to find different pods or we need to change decks.

The term cEDH isn't asking for something different. It isn't saying that EDH is a different game or demanding something different. It is providing a meaningful scope of what power level you are wanting to play at within the pod.

Within that term it is also meaning that the game can get broken. With such a minimal ban list and very few restrictions, the combos are powerful. Cards that are restricted and show up 1/4 as often in vintage have the same occurrence rates as every other individual cards in the deck. Cards that are banned in legacy are legal. Cards that are banned in Modern are legal. Things that make formats too fast, too broken or unfun to play in are still in this format. So there is a lot of things that people can do.

The request from the cEDH community isn't that we are doing something new and that EDH needs to adapt to us. It is that we are playing the game within the rules and within the guidelines and that some of the decisions that have been made have lead to rather poor experiences for those that are playing tuned EDH. Their decks that were really fun and engaging are now either dead or just can't provide the same fun experience that they did before. Additionally the strategies that are the most degenerate have been untouched. Which narrows the viable field of options for them when playing with others in a tuned setting.

I played through the Braids ban, through the Roffelos ban, through the Primeval Titan ban, through the Prophet of Kruphix, the Sylvan Primordial ban and through the Leovold ban. From a casual perspective, I understand, agree and felt all the frustrations with these cards and understood why they were being banned. From the tuned EDH perspective, we are feeling these frustrations almost every game. The same frustrations on how the game centered around Primeval Titan. The same feelings of frustration when you had no chance of catching up to the player with the Sylvan Primordial. Or how the game just felt like it was over when Leovold played a Puzzlebox. That stuff happens all the time, and, as it is with battlecruiser EDH, there are a select few pieces that stand out as offenders.

From a tuned EDH perspective few of the currently banned card sare missed. And from a battlecruiser perspective, very few of the offenders in tuned EDH are really even played.

My perfect Commander world would be one where casual, battlecruiser and tuned commander players would feel like their play experience matters and that their feedback is heard and taken into account. At the time of the last announcement that wasn't the case. Today it feels more like it is.

I would like to hear your response to this and maybe we can continue this discussion.
Thanks,
-Cameron

[Azerim]

Off the top of my head these are the adjustments i'd consider. But as someone said above, i'd still be happy without changes.

- Lower commander damage to something like 16 (but keep seperate counts at all costs!), to make Voltron more viable. There are very few dangerously fast 8+ power commander options, 6 power commanders could 3 hit and all others would profit a lot more from (small) buffs.

- Lower life counts to 30 at least, to make aggro strategies more viable. A total of 90 instead of 120 life points to overcome would increase pressure by aggro decks on omni-present midrange, control and combo decks significantly. Also, things that interact akwardly with high life totals - e.g. Necropotence - get seriously nerved.

- Unban Biorhythm, Coalition Victory, Gifts Ungiven, Sway of the Stars and Worldfire. These are all fine compared to several unbanned cards.

- Ban Mana Crypt & Sol Ring. Outside of so called "c"EDH they warp regular gameplay too much and - at least by my experience - create unpleasant games.

- Consider banning Expropriate and maybe Cyclonic Rift. Both are only reasonably interacted with u decks. I know Rift has very few comparable alternatives, but i think its balancing is off.

I think that Mana Crypt, Sol Ring and Mana Vault are here to stay I would love to see them banned, but I think it would be too big of a change. Command Zone did some analysis on something around 300 games, and they realized that people with fast mana in first 3 ruens were actually more likely to lose the game.
I do disagree with the unbans tho. Biorhythm is a noninteractive (for non-blue decks) way to just end the game with one spell. If you really tried, you can probably quite consistently play Biorythm around turn 5 while having some mana dorks. Coalition Victory makes non-blue decks run land destruction so that 5-color deck doesn't win out of nowhere by just playing his general and casting a single spell. Gifts I can agree on the unban, or at least on some testing, this one could have a big impact on cEDH. Sway and Worldfire both just reset the game (no interaction again) and you can't even really build arounf that effect.

I do think that:
-Braids, Cabal Minion
-Panoptic Mirror - slow to combo it, can by disrupted by any artifact destruction. Dramatic Scepter is just better.
-Primeval Titan - testing required.
-Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary - very good, not really broken or unfun for others.
-Sundering Titan - testing required.
-Sylvan Primordial - testing required.
-Upheaval - very similar to cards like Devastation but still lets you play the game, just much more slowly, it's much closer to Static Orb than Worldfire.
Should all be considered for an unban - there are simply more broken things you can do.

[SkyeDragonQueen]

Before I begin, thanks for making the effort to post this, Sheldon/RC/CAG. It does help quite a bit.

Background on who I am: I'm Kai Sawler (Prooobably better known as Skye, Queen of Dragons online), a level 1 Judge out of Nova Scotia, Canada. I play Casually, at the Mid Power Level, and have a deep interest in both judging, spectating and playing at the cEDH/Competitive level of EDH. I have a foot in both worlds so to speak, so I've seen a lot of discussion coming around since the recent banning and unbanning. I've been playing MTG since January of 2016, and EDH a few months after that. My First deck was the Marath Pre-Con, which eventually turned into Rosheen Meanderer Hydra/Beasts, and eventually I went on to start a Dragon/Draconian collection that now spans about 1000 cards. My cEDH deck of choice is Chain Veil Teferi. Shivan Dragon is my favourite card, and definitely needs to be watched for power level.

EDH, at it's core, is less about a philosophy, or deck-building restriction, and more about the social aspects to me in the casual sense. When I sit down to play a game, I'm not looking for a game, but instead a conversation, to hear about my friends and their days, to hear about the latest MTG news, or who top 8's with what jank recently, etc. EDH for me is a way to talk to my friends, family and community in a /format/ that allows me to be creative. I don't mean to say that EDH itself isn't important, or that I never look for a game for it's own sake. Of course I do, and of course it is! But far and gone my biggest enjoyment of the format is that it is a social one. Even at the competitive level, the passion and interest I can hear from the voices of those playing it makes me happy.

Since the banning, that conversation has turned sour. Whenever a ban or unban happens, the majority of the conversation for a few weeks is always going to revolve around that. "Why would they ban this?" "Finally!" "Ugh, I just got a foil one!!" etc. gets thrown around. But this time seems different. It's the first real time since I started playing that an important card to the competitive community has been banned (Paradox Engine). For me personally, the ban was fine. I don't believe the card is terribly broken at the more casual levels, I've seen it a few times, and normally it either gets removed, or it's more used as a value engine, rather than combo, allowing the user to get a few extra spells from some dorks, or janky combos with tapping artifacts with charge counters. It's never once been an issue. However, at the more competitive levels, the card is a seriously powerful contender. While I do believe the card is safe (albeit potentially dangerous in the wrong hands) on the casual side of the format, it can lead to a lot of degeneracy that I believe the RC doesn't want to allow.

Nearly every conversation has been about the Engine. A lot of people complaining that it makes the cEDH meta even less diverse, a lot of people complaining about losing their entire deck's identity, or a decent about of money due to the bannings. I've even heard more casual players start to become nervous, "I got into EDH so I could avoid bannings in Modern/Legacy effectively killing my investment of a deck.. but it seems like it's here too.". The biggest fear right now is that the EDH player base may divide, which would hurt both sides a lot. But if you're reading this, and you're a player who was unhappy for any reason with the banning, I agree with the RC's decision, and verdict. The Engine was an issue in some circles, and while it may or may not have been in your circle, the bigger picture is important. But that leads to another issue: Every meta/group is different.. so what constitutes the bigger picture?

I believe the RC branching out with the CAG was an awesome step. Not only bringing in more competitive level players, but just getting their tendrils of agony out into the world more, to gather more data. Data is one of the most important things to any format, and especially to those who decide it's bans. Sheldon, you need more data. And with cEDH becoming more popular, even as a primarily casual player myself, cEDH really does matter to the format as a whole. From my understanding, I know you aren't a huge fan of looking into it for data, but the biggest issue that I've seen, is so many players feeling forced to push their power up and up by the community. I don't believe there's a fundamental way to fix that, as competitive players who are spikey (not all, of course) exist, and will consciously or subconsciously do that, with their actions, words, and recommendations. It is my opinion that the RC's best bet is to get ahead of this, and start accepting data, or having large communities with different power levels submit data to them to review.

Personally, I've begun a side project of collecting cEDH data, to better understand the format. Simple data like mulligans, deck lists, win conditions, speed, etc. are all great for any budding or experienced brewer in 60-card constructed formats. And while a multiplayer format such as EDH adds a lot more difficulty to reviewing the data and making informed decisions, I adore the challenge, and spreadsheeting too. If the RC has any interest, I have absolutely no issue at all (and would love to, by the way!) offer the data to them as well as give insight into cEDH's meta, and community's feelings on various cards as they are released. I don't believe the RC should make decisions soly based on cEDH, as that's not the majority of the format, but having that information can be good as more and more groups unfortunately feel the need to push up the power.

I have a lot of respect for you in particular, Sheldon. From Judge Circles, I've heard awesome stories about you. From EDH circles, I've heard interesting deck lists you've piloted. But it is in my opinion that you guys should broaden your information gathering. Even if you ultimately don't use the data, having the data is never a bad thing. While some cEDH players may growl at me for it, as it may put certain cards in the spotlight they would rather not, I believe with the proper amount of data, the RC can make better decisions, and ultimately cause a more wholesome community, without divides or squabbling (or at least, not as much!).

Thanks for reading,
Skye, Queen of Dragons.