Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

[yeti1069]

I have a Sefris deck that wants to be venturing a ton, and I'm still not running Acererak in there.

[pzbw7z]

Has anyone tried or considered Unified Will?

[yeti1069]

Has anyone tried or considered Unified Will?

There are basically only three situations I use counterspells in with this deck: to stop someone from winning, to protect a mass reanimate, or to prevent someone from exiling my graveyard. In 2/3rds of those situations, there may not be any creatures on the battlefield, and this wouldn't do anything. At 2 mana, there are several counterspells that look better than this.

[Eburon]

I don't think Unified Will is good enough. Heck, most Edric players don't run it and they run a ton of counter magic.

[Eburon]

Do we run Takenuma, Abandoned Mire ? It is a land if we need it and utility if we can afford it.

[pokken]

If you have room for no basics these seem like slamdunks esp if you are on sevinnes and crucible.

[Eburon]

I'm fairly low on basics (8 total), so cutting 1 more wouldn't make a difference.

[toctheyounger]

It seems reasonable. Not the most amazing effect ever, but utility is utility, and the cost is likely to be bargain basement most of the time so I guess there's probably no reason not to.

[pzbw7z]

Do we run Takenuma, Abandoned Mire ? It is a land if we need it and utility if we can afford it.

I like it! Lily likes it too!

[plaganegra]

Rooftop is a combo piece whereas Necroduality is a value generator. I can see Necroduality go bonkers after a mass reanimate though.

Right, but WHEN do you play Necro? So far, every time I've had it in hand, I've had other stuff it made more sense to play, rather than taking a turn off for a 4 mana enchantment that does nothing on its own. While Rooftop CAN be a combo piece, it's also a value generator. And while 6 mana is greater than 4, if I have a 3+ mana zombie in hand, and 6 mana, I can cast Rooftop + zombie (and any other zombies), whereas with Necro I only get the enchantment. Now, sure, I pitch Rooftop some of the time, too, especially if I draw it early and don't have a handful of zombies and mana, but when I play it, it immediately does something, and if it sticks for a turn, it provides some value.

Necroduality is a card that probably doesn't work equally well in all builds. If you cannot set up a huge turn with it, or get immediate value off of it then it is a huge tempo loss, especially if someone just blows it up. I view it in the same light as Rooftop Storm because of the difference in CMC. if you imagine necroduality as something you play T5+ when you should be able to double a zombie with it right away, then it is a much better play.

I would not play it earlier than T5 personally, unless I had a situation where a couple of my auto-reanimating zombies like silversmote ghoul or prized amalgam were going to ETB at the end of the turn. The last time I played it I had that happen after using a buried alive to grab both alongside gravecrawler. Decks that can get zombies into play for free can benefit off of necroduality a lot more consistently.

Ideally
T1 zombie
T2 zombie
T3 buried alive/intuition
T4 Varina, dig
T5 swing with zombies, drop necroduality, maybe play 1-drop and get back some auto-reanimators for all the value

any amount of ramp makes this way better. And following up with the end game mass reanimate should be overwhelming with the value

This is what I would go for if I had necro in my opening 10 cards.

Necroduality rewards the decks efficiency that compliments varina - the more zombies you can vomit out and swing with the better.

[plaganegra]

Has anyone thought about how truly absurd of a card Containment Construct is? Definitely worth a discussion for Varina, even though it is clearly not a zombie and not very flavorful.

I dont at all think this is an auto-include, but my brain is having a lot of fun thinking about the many lines of play this card could open up.

Everything you cycle from Varina would now have the option to be played this turn (only). Including lands. I guess if you play at least one thing off of it the card has probably earned its keep.

Interested to hear from other people thinking about this card beyond "not a zombie, pass" if there are any. Otherwise I didn't see anything in this set that caught my interest for the zombie deck. Takenuma, Abandoned mire is playable, but if you use any effects that care about basics you might want the basic swamp instead. Definitely a good pickup if it drops down a bunch.

[WizardMN]

Regarding Construct:

I think it ends up being pretty solid in terms of allowing for us to recoup at least one card (perhaps more depending on what is discarded). The fact that it is optional is supremely important as there is no way it should be considered if it weren't optional and getting more use out of the discarded cards breaks the symmetry of Varina's effect to allow her to actually draw cards and come out ahead. I don't really see any significant downside to the card and being 2 mana means it is very relevant once you get the point of swinging with Varina.

As it stands though: it is not a zombie, so pass (for me anyway).

[Eburon]

I just picked up a Kindred Discovery. Any suggestions for a cut from my list?

Decklist

DecklistCMCManaPricesChartsDraw 7

Commander:

1 Varina, Lich Queen

Creatures:

1 Carrion Feeder

1 Champion of the Perished

1 Cryptbreaker

1 Gravecrawler

1 Shambling Ghast

1 Weathered Wayfarer

1 Apprentice Necromancer

1 Binding Mummy

1 Corpse Knight

1 Lazotep Chancellor

1 Relentless Dead

1 Shepherd of Rot

1 Snapcaster Mage

1 Tainted Adversary

1 Undead Augur

1 Wayward Servant

1 Withered Wretch

1 Death Baron

1 Diregraf Captain

1 Diregraf Colossus

1 Headless Rider

1 Lord of the Undead

1 Master of Death

1 Midnight Reaper

1 Plague Belcher

1 Zombie Master

1 Graveborn Muse

1 Repository Skaab

1 Undead Warchief

1 Vengeful Dead

1 Wilhelt, the Rotcleaver

1 Archfiend of Ifnir

1 Bone Miser

1 Gray Merchant of Asphodel

1 Noxious Ghoul

1 Sidisi, Undead Vizier

Mana Rocks:

1 Sol Ring

1 Arcane Signet

1 Expedition Map

1 Talisman of Dominance

1 Talisman of Hierarchy

1 Ashnod's Altar

1 Phyrexian Altar

Interaction:

1 Pact of Negation

1 Swan Song

1 Swords to Plowshares

1 Cyclonic Rift

1 Fracture

1 Anguished Unmaking

1 Fierce Guardianship

1 Generous Gift

1 Toxic Deluge

Utility:

1 Skullclamp

1 Read the Runes

1 Plumb the Forbidden

1 Empty the Laboratory

1 Liliana, Untouched by Death

1 Sevinne's Reclamation

1 Living Death

1 Patriarch's Bidding

1 Zombie Apocalypse

Enchantments:

1 Mystic Remora

1 Zombie Infestation

1 Rhystic Study

1 Tombstone Stairwell

Lands (35):

1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx

1 Phyrexian Tower

1 Unholy Grotto

1 Arid Mesa

1 Bloodstained Mire

1 Flooded Strand

1 Marsh Flats

1 Misty Rainforest

1 Polluted Delta

1 Scalding Tarn

1 Verdant Catacombs

1 Windswept Heath

1 Prismatic Vista

2 Island

2 Plains

4 Swamp

1 Godless Shrine

1 Hallowed Fountain

1 Watery Grave

1 City of Brass

1 Command Tower

1 Mana Confluence

1 Unclaimed Territory

1 Crypt of Agadeem

1 Drowned Catacomb

1 Isolated Chapel

1 Vault of Champions

1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

1 Agadeem's Awakening // Agadeem, the Undercrypt

Approximate Total Cost:

[pokken]

I just picked up a Kindred Discovery. Any suggestions for a cut from my list?

That list is really tight. First glance, cut non-zombies like Snapcaster Mage or do a slot-replacement like Bone Miser.

Archfiend of Ifnir is very powerful but kinda off-theme and has some awkwardness, and Withered Wretch is just not a very good card.

Read the Runes is probably the cut though. Slot adjacent and likely the worst card in the deck pound for pound.

[WizardMN]

I disagree on Withered Wretch (there are others I would cut before it) but I agree with the other cards. Archfiend or Read the Runes would likely be my suggestion as well. It doesn't play as well as you would like (in my experience) and can sometimes lead to odd tension with the play. Since you aren't casting it for less than X=3 most times anyway, it ends up being close enough to Discovery in terms of the spot on the curve.

[Eburon]

I agree with @WizardMN on Withered Wretch. That card can really put in some work as GY hate and is a 2-drop that plays well into our early game plan.

Read the Runes is very likely the cut. I go back and forth with Archfiend. If Archfiend sticks, it is a house that can put in some work. Sometimes it can be a bit useless.

[pzbw7z]

Has anyone thought about how truly absurd of a card Containment Construct is? Definitely worth a discussion for Varina, even though it is clearly not a zombie and not very flavorful.

I dont at all think this is an auto-include, but my brain is having a lot of fun thinking about the many lines of play this card could open up.

Everything you cycle from Varina would now have the option to be played this turn (only). Including lands. I guess if you play at least one thing off of it the card has probably earned its keep.

Interested to hear from other people thinking about this card beyond "not a zombie, pass" if there are any. Otherwise I didn't see anything in this set that caught my interest for the zombie deck. Takenuma, Abandoned mire is playable, but if you use any effects that care about basics you might want the basic swamp instead. Definitely a good pickup if it drops down a bunch.

Containment Construct seems pretty solid; it checks nearly all of the boxes: May✔️- Play (not Cast) ✔️

If it were a Zombie it might feel like an auto-include. As it is, I might try it if one falls into my lap. I certainly wouldn't question anyone's Zombie-cred for playing it. It's closer to theme than Weathered Wayfarer or Snapcaster Mage.

Takenuma, Abandoned Mire seems pretty solid. I have pretty much the same feeling about it as the Construct, maybe a little stronger. I might go so far as to inquire about it, but I'm lower on basics than I'd like already.

[yeti1069]

Other than being able to play a discarded, and exiled land, I feel like I'd rather run Library of Leng if concerned about pitching stuff, or Crucible of Worlds for lands specifically. It's not like the deck is frequently making so much mana that it's hunting for stuff to cast.

[pzbw7z]

Mausoleum Secrets

This would sometimes be bad, occasionally even dead, but I can imagine scenarios where it would be stupid good!

[yeti1069]

Mausoleum Secrets

This would sometimes be bad, occasionally even dead, but I can imagine scenarios where it would be stupid good!

It's just not as good as Demonic Tutor or Vampiric Tutor in most scenarios, so it's simply a budget option that doesn't do what you want it to a lot of the time. The instant speed tutoring can be nice, but there aren't that many black cards you would be going after that instant speed matters for.

[plaganegra]

Other than being able to play a discarded, and exiled land, I feel like I'd rather run Library of Leng if concerned about pitching stuff, or Crucible of Worlds for lands specifically. It's not like the deck is frequently making so much mana that it's hunting for stuff to cast.

That is a really big difference though.

Usually you wont be playing a zombie until after attacks anyway (unless it buffs or triggers). So you could even discard and exile the zombie you want to play - and if you can play a land too for big card advantage (mostly you should be able to) its pretty great. Library of leng is for a totally different purpose. It doesnt generate any card advantage in this deck. The construct can generate a ton.

If its creature type started with a "Z" i cant imagine there would even be a discussion about including it in this commander deck. Which illustrates jts utility even without. Personally I am trying to think through all of the sequencing options to see if it is truly worth it. Thats where I am at on it. I might try it out in a game or two either way but thats hardly a sample. I wish we could all play more often than it seems we do lol

Anyone playing rooftop storm should especially consider it

[pzbw7z]

Notably, Containment Construct doesn't care about Zombie Apocalypse, so he's more at home than several cards that see some play, namely various Gisa's and Geralf's as well as Weathered Wayfarer.

[yeti1069]

Other than being able to play a discarded, and exiled land, I feel like I'd rather run Library of Leng if concerned about pitching stuff, or Crucible of Worlds for lands specifically. It's not like the deck is frequently making so much mana that it's hunting for stuff to cast.

That is a really big difference though.

Usually you wont be playing a zombie until after attacks anyway (unless it buffs or triggers). So you could even discard and exile the zombie you want to play - and if you can play a land too for big card advantage (mostly you should be able to) its pretty great. Library of leng is for a totally different purpose. It doesnt generate any card advantage in this deck. The construct can generate a ton.

If its creature type started with a "Z" i cant imagine there would even be a discussion about including it in this commander deck. Which illustrates jts utility even without. Personally I am trying to think through all of the sequencing options to see if it is truly worth it. Thats where I am at on it. I might try it out in a game or two either way but thats hardly a sample. I wish we could all play more often than it seems we do lol

Anyone playing rooftop storm should especially consider it

My thinking is that it's a 2-mana creature with a crappy body that doesn't fit with the rest of the game plan, in that it doesn't trigger Varina, benefit from tribal buffs, trigger aristocrats, or get reanimated with most of our reanimation suite. It's pretty vulnerable to incidental removal, and if played in the first few turns limits the Varina trigger by not being a zombie. Plus, we actively want cards in the graveyard, so we're only ever incentivized to use its ability on something we're planning to cast this turn anyway. So, it does literally nothing the turn you cast Varina and swing with 1 or more zombies. On the following turn, it maybe does something of value. Note that it isn't quite as useful as Crucible for pitching lands, since Crucible can help you hit lands drops over multiple turns, or reuse fetches.

I feel like I'd rather run a draw spell to simply have more cards in hand for V's trigger, so I don't have to pitch stuff I don't want to, or Library so I can pitch stuff and still have access to it.

[pokken]

The ultimate dealbreaker with that card is not being a zombie and not surviving sweepers (e.g. other Varina abuse effects like Crucible of Worlds and Kindred Discovery).

[Eburon]

I would agree that the construct doesn't particularly fit our game plan. How often will we be exiling a card to cast in this deck? If you need to cast a certain card that turn, you can just hold onto it and pitch the other stuff to set-up and further our game plan.