Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

[Eburon]

Random question. Is there a Varina Discord server? If not, would anyone be interested in joining if I created one?

[pokken]

Random question. Is there a Varina Discord server? If not, would anyone be interested in joining if I created one?

My experience has generally been that discords that specific rarely are sustainable, but this thread's regular attendance might cast doubt on that assessment

I'd be pretty susprised if there was one though given that they're almost always for super popular generals, but who knows.

Me personally: I don't have much energy to split my attention, I mostly pay attention to this for magic stuff, and Discord I find a little spammy. wind up muting things and never checking them.

TLDR I'll join but I doubt I'll be able to maintain attention Discord is hard for my attention span

[Eburon]

The big plus for discord is that it is more friendly to mobile users.

[toctheyounger]

Yeah I get both sides. I'm in the nitpicking nerds server but my definite preference is to devote more time here. Information on discord just seems more transient.

There probably is a Varina server I would say, I'm not hugely interested myself. This thread has been pretty great and continues to be so (I try to keep eyes on everyone else's too but honestly life is busy and so is this thread), I just don't feel like i need anywhere else to talk specifically about the deck. I do like that discord is more mobile easy but I don't really need an excuse to spend more time on my phone 😅

[yeti1069]

Random question. Is there a Varina Discord server? If not, would anyone be interested in joining if I created one?

I'd be active in that. I am in a discord for each of Marchesa, the Black Rose and Queen Marchesa [/card]. One thing I like about those, is the sub-rooms for each server delineate the variations on the decks, rather than having completely separate threads for (in Varina's case) aristocrats, low to the ground, control, mid-range, etc...

[yeti1069]

Had a pretty solid 5 player game (Edgar Markov, Chulane, Teller of Tales [/card], Azusa, Lost but Seeking [/card], and General Ferrous Rokiric [/card]showcasing Wilhelt a bit, and small plays of mass reanimation last night. Kept a land-heavy hand after a couple mulligans, and was drawing very few zombies. Had my small board wiped, and a couple of my guys targeted for removal, thanks to having an overwhelming advantage in the previous game (with a different deck) and people being a little salty, I think. Thankfully was drawing cards off Undead Augur, although I was getting targeted enough that the life loss was concerning.

Played Zombie Apocalypse to get back Carrion Feeder, Wilhelt, the Augur, Rot Hulk, and something else of little relevance. Sacc'ed Hulk at EOT to draw 2 cards (it was the least important piece on board).

Wilhelt left behind 4 zombies that I was able to swing with after dropping Varina again to keep the loot train going.

Played Rooftop Storm, Varina, and Undead Warchief, then swung with my tokens to loot and gain life (was down around 15 at this point, with anyone I hadn't swung at still in the upper-20s to low-30s. Dropped a Death Baron after combat to dissuade attacks a little.

Swung again the following turn, but can't recall what else I played. The turn cycle after, the board got wiped again.

Played Patriarch's Bidding after a Bojuka Bog targeting the Edgar Markov player who had Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet in their yard, and got back all of the aforementioned zombies, only to have Azusa cast a board wipe on my end step with flash. Drew 8 cards (Wilhelt trigger was on the stack and I sacrificed one of the decayed tokens he made to draw a card) and left behind 6 2/2s. Discarded Wonder with some other stuff.

Swung with the flyers at Azusa, dropped Corpse Knight, Wayward Servant, Apprentice Necromancer, Nykthos, and Tombstone Stairwell, and passed turn at 5 life. Azusa cast Defense of the Heart thinking they would get two combo pieces I guess? On their upkeep, Defense triggered, but so did Tombstone, and not being the active player, mine resolved first, creating 7 zombies (I'd drawn over 40 cards so far, and had only gotten 10 or 11 zombies), but the drain for 14 was enough to kill Azusa after my swing, so we never saw what they were going to get. Next upkeep Stairwell finished everyone else off.

Games like this are why I keep saying that playing a mass reanimation spell doesn't means the deck wins. I have two tutors in the deck, and Vampiric only showed up on my last turn. I had discarded both Phyrexian Altar and Sevinne's Reclamation earlier when I didn't have enough creatures to both with the Altar, but it was available if I ever got to the point where I could combo, but never got a death-trigger aristocrat, nor a way to recur a creature enough to make the Altar worthwhile.

[toctheyounger]

Teah I'll agree to that. Really mass reanimation will get you there if you're looping, or if you have Gary to work with. Otherwise they really do depend on you having some existing architecture in play. Which is fine, its what the deck wants to do anyway, but as with most aspects of this deck, sequencing is really important to maximize your impact, as we are most of the time killing the table in inches.

[pzbw7z]

Varina's debutante was not entirely smooth. She seemed to struggle getting going for some reason, with many mulligans and really no fast starts. I'll wait until I get some more games in to start drawing conclusions.

In the last game she did put together a pretty good board state including Gisa and Geralf, Rooftop Storm, Carrion Feeder and Gray Merchant of Asphodel. She might have still lost without a timely overloaded Cyclonic Rift as Karametra, God of Harvests had a very robust board state and Nethroi, Apex of Death had a combo about to go off.

The list has some compromises due to availability of cards and my stubbornness about proxying but the evening ended on a good note so I'm pleased.

There's a link in my signature to the list if you're curious.

[pzbw7z]

Does anyone else not hate the idea of trying Ashiok, Dream Render? It feels like some more gravehate would be beneficial. I had Tombstone Stairwell in hand one game and didn't feel like I could use it because one of the other players had more creatures in his graveyard than I had in mine.

I'm not sure what Ashiok is, but she does rather resemble a Zombie in the right light.

[toctheyounger]

Does anyone else not hate the idea of trying Ashiok, Dream Render? It feels like some more gravehate would be beneficial. I had Tombstone Stairwell in hand one game and didn't feel like I could use it because one of the other players had more creatures in his graveyard than I had in mine.

I'm not sure what Ashiok is, but she does rather resemble a Zombie in the right light.

Apparently its they not she. They have no gender, whatever they are. Anyway I've thought on it before. I think there's potentially a case for it, meta depending. If you see scope for its use I could see taking some spot removal out for it for sure - all of those spots are flex to me, depending on what works for you around your meta and what you're aiming for. As a plus Sevinne's gives you another round with Ashiok too, which is....konda brutal really.

It definitely aids the mass reanimators, and while Stairwell I think is bonkers enough that most of the time it won't matter so much, obviously it makes that a more unilateral affair which is nice.

[pzbw7z]

Another round of games today and one noteworthy result.

In a four-way with not much going on, Living Death allowed me to take control. Carrion Feeder sac'ed the board including Varina so I got about eight creatures back including Fleshbag Marauder which cleaned up the other players' creatures. Those creatures killed one opponent the next time around and then I played Zombie Apocalypse sac'ing the whole board again. Varina had looted more creatures including Gray Merchant of Asphodel which nearly killed the other two players. A few sac's and Diregraf Captain finished it off.

Good times.

[pzbw7z]

Is anyone on the degenerate Acererak the Archlich? Apparently it's a thing with Rooftop Storm. Infinite ventures into the Lost Mine of Phandelver apparently gets it done.

[yeti1069]

Is anyone on the degenerate Acererak the Archlich? Apparently it's a thing with Rooftop Storm. Infinite ventures into the Lost Mine of Phandelver apparently gets it done.

If you're already running Rooftop it's a 2 card combo, yeah. Acererak doesn't contribute anything otherwise, unless you just have a lot of mana and nothing to spend it on.

[pokken]

Is anyone on the degenerate Acererak the Archlich? Apparently it's a thing with Rooftop Storm. Infinite ventures into the Lost Mine of Phandelver apparently gets it done.

I'm aiming on all my combos being things that synergize with keeping the varina train going so skipped that combo. It feels a mite awkward to me.

We have access to so many combos that cost so little mana and do a lot of work on their own and can be reset so easily from the bin. Storm is hard to recur and fairly expensive and does nothing really organically.

Just my take ofc

[pzbw7z]

Is anyone on the degenerate Acererak the Archlich? Apparently it's a thing with Rooftop Storm. Infinite ventures into the Lost Mine of Phandelver apparently gets it done.

If you're already running Rooftop it's a 2 card combo, yeah. Acererak doesn't contribute anything otherwise, unless you just have a lot of mana and nothing to spend it on.

Is anyone on the degenerate Acererak the Archlich? Apparently it's a thing with Rooftop Storm. Infinite ventures into the Lost Mine of Phandelver apparently gets it done.

I'm aiming on all my combos being things that synergize with keeping the varina train going so skipped that combo. It feels a mite awkward to me.

We have access to so many combos that cost so little mana and do a lot of work on their own and can be reset so easily from the bin. Storm is hard to recur and fairly expensive and does nothing really organically.

Just my take ofc

Rooftop Storm is a hoot, but I agree Acererak is gimicky at best. It might be fun once. It might cloud one's gaming relationships but it's probably not as bad as Heliod-Ballista - not that I would know anything about that!

The issue of recurring Enchantments is of interest. Tombstone Stairwell is also a card I hate to lose, but so far it seems there is enough diversity in win-cons that I'm not going to do anything but keep it in the back of my mind for now. I wouldn't mind running a card that got back Enchantments as long as it got back Instants and Sorceries - Recall is such a card and it's in the maybe board. If I run across a copy in a bulk box somewhere I might snag it. The casting cost isn't outrageous, but I'd prefer something more on the lines of a U (or W or maybe B stapled on a Zombie!) Regrowth but I'm unaware of such a card.

It might be better to run something that puts cards from the yard back into the library. This might help with nasty issues like Suffer the Past when one is trying to machine gun the field with Gravecrawler-Phyrexian Altar-Diregraf Captain. Don't ask about it, but know that I invested some work in assembling that and didn't appreciate it getting disrupted.

Still, I'm mostly holding the adequate win-con position here as well but there are cards that tuck that I might consider in the future. For now I just want some games and maybe some counseling to help with the deck-building mania.

[pokken]

The nice thing about Tombstone Stairwell is that it almost stands alone with your strategy almost regardless of what's in your hand. Chances are super good it lasts until at least one player's upkeep and you get X zombies. It's strong enough and cheap enough manawise I'm willing to just risk it.

All the enchantments I run are either 1) very cheap acceptable losses, 2) likely to be able to do something good the moment I drop them (see Kindred Discovery, Tombstone Stairwell).

So I just don't worry about it. Rooftop Storm's only real value is either as a combo piece or if you're in a dominant position (with a ton of zombies in your hand). It does combo strongly with Liliana, Untouched by Death, but that's 10 mana in one turn, or having Liliana or Storm wheel. The play patterns it represents suggest it will be dead a lot of the time, or need to wheel a lot of the time.

I think it lacks 'when it comes down' utility reliably enough to want to play it without a way to recur it.

[pzbw7z]

Rooftop Storm's only real value is either as a combo piece or if you're in a dominant position (with a ton of zombies in your hand). It does combo strongly with Liliana, Untouched by Death

Gisa and Geralf like it too. It was fun casting Gray Merchant of Asphodel three turns in a row.

By the way can I just give Carrion Feeder a HUGE shout out? Is that little guy not amazing? It seems every time some spectacular happens, CF is a integral part of it.

Rooftop Storm has been fun, and that is good enough for me, at least for now. I often have to give up on things I cherish to compete, but Commander seems to be somewhat forgiving in that regard.

[pokken]

By the way can I just give Carrion Feeder a HUGE shout out? Is that little guy not amazing? It seems every time some spectacular happens, CF is a integral part of it.

All the open sac outlets are great, but CF is definitely the best one on a body. I have had great success with Nantuko Husk guys too.

[toctheyounger]

Yeah Feeder is excellent. Rightly alongside Viscera Seer as tow of the best black sac outlets available.

As an aside I finally picked up my orders. A wad of cardboard about an inch thick for various builds, including 2 new builds. 12 potential new inclusions for Varina, so I'm definitely going to struggle for cuts.

[pzbw7z]

Is it required, or just recommended to shout "It's alive, it's ALIVE" when playing Zombies for 0 via Rooftop Storm?

Is Geralf Dr. Frankenstein or is there a Ludevic card I should be playing?





P.S. Ludevic, Necrogenius is in color, but it looks like hot garbage to me.

[yeti1069]

I've played Rooftop plenty. Sometimes I pitch it to Varina because I don't have zombies in hand,.or just need to keep something else. Other times, it's moderate value, allowing me to play more zombies in a turn that I'd otherwise be able to. And yet other times it does tremendous work, providing value with Havengul Lich, (prefer this over Liliana), combining with Gravecrawler, or really being.able to dump a ton of bodies into play at once (especially with Kindred Discovery in play). I'm also looking forward to the interaction of RS and Overcharged Amalgam.

I used to run ways to recur Rooftop, but haven't bothered for a bit. May look at including Hall of Heliod.

[plaganegra]

Do any of the enchantments really need to be recurred? I think that is the question you should be asking.

I think the answer is just No. They are all support cards, akin to the side dishes next to the main course - you can probably be doing better things than worrying about a lost enchantment at any given time in the game. Anyway though, the only recursion I think I would run is Hall of Heliod's Generosity. I just don't think you need to waste slots on this TBH. If you are worried about losing a win condition - the main win cons are not the enchantments, they are creatures, which this tribe is abundantly good at recurring. If you are on it you only need the utility to bring back phyrexian altar and sevinne's rec is the card for that!

Now if you want to recur them just because they are fun - well that I can get behind. I used to run rooftop storm in my Gisa and Geralf deck for all the fun and flavor! I found Recall to be the best way to get them back before Hall was printed (and in UB colors). It also doubles as a discard outlet. The best is probably Yawgmoth's Will, for anyone with the budget for it. A lot of utility with that one, of course if you aren't careful you could end up exiling things.

Speaking of which, What am I missing on Putrid Imp? I see some people running it and I don't understand the need for a discard outlet in the deck. I am assuming I am missing something, or is it just to be able to cash in even more on a mass reanimate on the off-chance that actually lines up?

PS, @pzbw7z if you look at the showcase art for the new Geralf, Visionary Stitcher I think you can see your dr. frankenstein pretty clearly. His monster of course being Grimgrin, Corpse-Born. If you want to be *extra* flavorful you can always run Frankenstein's Monster (which is a zombie!)

Speaking of which - we could get a "Dracula" Secret Lair, but no "Frankenstein"? - what a HUGE miss... in the public domain too I believe.

[pokken]

I run putrid imp as a combo piece For lazotep chancellor that is also a 1 drop zombie.

I think the only reason to run it is that interaction. It's cuttable for me too although I've thought of adding some more discard triggers. Bone miser pretty good

[yeti1069]

I've run Obzedat's Aid in the past as a catch-all reanimation spell, and have definitely used it to bring back Rooftop and Kindred Discovery as one time or another, but not frequently. I ended up cutting it to try other stuff, but it's perpetually on the "maybe" list. If I find that I'm frequently discarding cards I want to recur later, or getting stuff blown up too early, it may come back in. What I always like about it was that it's never a dead card, since it can always recur a creature, or a land in a pinch. Have used it a few times to bring back Rot Hulk, then 3 of his friends.

I ran Putrid Imp alongside Bone Miser for a bit, but I've cut both (as well as Zombie Infestation) for the time being.

[pzbw7z]

Do any of the enchantments really need to be recurred? I think that is the question you should be asking.

I think the answer is just No. They are all support cards, akin to the side dishes next to the main course - you can probably be doing better things than worrying about a lost enchantment at any given time in the game. Anyway though, the only recursion I think I would run is Hall of Heliod's Generosity. I just don't think you need to waste slots on this TBH. If you are worried about losing a win condition - the main win cons are not the enchantments, they are creatures, which this tribe is abundantly good at recurring. If you are on it you only need the utility to bring back phyrexian altar and sevinne's rec is the card for that!

Now if you want to recur them just because they are fun - well that I can get behind. I used to run rooftop storm in my Gisa and Geralf deck for all the fun and flavor! I found Recall to be the best way to get them back before Hall was printed (and in UB colors). It also doubles as a discard outlet. The best is probably Yawgmoth's Will, for anyone with the budget for it. A lot of utility with that one, of course if you aren't careful you could end up exiling things.

Speaking of which, What am I missing on Putrid Imp? I see some people running it and I don't understand the need for a discard outlet in the deck. I am assuming I am missing something, or is it just to be able to cash in even more on a mass reanimate on the off-chance that actually lines up?

PS, @pzbw7z if you look at the showcase art for the new Geralf, Visionary Stitcher I think you can see your dr. frankenstein pretty clearly. His monster of course being Grimgrin, Corpse-Born. If you want to be *extra* flavorful you can always run Frankenstein's Monster (which is a zombie!)

Speaking of which - we could get a "Dracula" Secret Lair, but no "Frankenstein"? - what a HUGE miss... in the public domain too I believe.

There's nothing here to disagree with I think. The cards I'm most interested in recurring other than creatures are the Sorceries Living Death|TMP and Zombie Apocalypse|DKA. I'm not convinced that need is great enough to dedicate card slots to. If the ability is stapled onto a Zombie, e.g. Repository Skaab, then it's gravy. Enchantment recursion wouldn't suck but I'm not sold on Recall|LEG yet and I'm not sold on a C land yet either. Mostly I just don't have the repetitions with the deck yet to make those calls. I think there are enough routes to victory that there's no need to worry about individual cards.

Flavor is groovy, but that Frankenstein's Monster looks like hot garbage.