Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

[yeti1069]

Just got in another game. Don't need to go into all the details, except to say that Empty the Laboratory (X=4) was solid again, as was Rooftop Storm. And also, Coveted Jewel is a ridiculous card that propelled me out of the gate really fast.

[Reya]

What are your experience with Unholy Grotto ? Feels like we don't need to play a land producing colorless that is bad a doing stuff our deck already do very well.

I will give a try to Crypt of Agadeem.

[WizardMN]

What are your experience with Unholy Grotto ? Feels like we don't need to play a land producing colorless that is bad a doing stuff our deck already do very well.

I will give a try to Crypt of Agadeem.

I like having the option to return 1 thing back to hand (similar to Lord of the Undead). With that being said, I don't think I have ever activated the Grotto and I might have activated Lord once or twice. As you said, it is bad at doing something the rest of our deck does better and likely isn't really needed. I have been letting it slide in my deck since it is an untapped land and the colorless vs color has yet to really make an impact (especially since trimming other colorless producing lands).

[toctheyounger]

I think cards like Grotto and Undead are likely there to be used as a failsafe when you've got nothing else. The chances of them being useful all of the time is very slim, but for myself I'd not like to cut just on the basis that they're not as good as they could be - they do something not a lot of other cards do for a pretty low impact on the brew so I think they earn a slot purely for plan B opportunities. The opportunity cost is relatively small, as for Grotto it enters untapped anyway. I think personally fitting in Crypt would probably just mean dropping a basic, or a checkland or something else.

[Kvothe]

I am interested in your thoughts on this topic and have read all of the content you have put into the thread recently. What I want to know is how you think the negative card advantage affects the game from moxen like chrome mox or mox diamond (exiling/discarding another card from your hand) since generally with Varina we want to have as many cards in hand to select what we are discarding to her cycling ability. This is the primary reason I have not used these sorts of fast mana rocks in the deck.

I built my list similarly to Pokken's and from the start my only rocks were the 0 cmc ones.
I really appreciate not tapping out to play rocks, and would rather not play rocks than play signets. It really makes the gameplay smoother... but I can see it being able to tap out to ramp in slower metas.
As for the card disadvantage I did find it to be an issue, but I still have draw doublers and Rhystic Study to mitigate it, since I haven't updated the list for a while.

I really like Pokken's list... it makes me rethink Skullclamp, I really want to readd it now.
It also makes me wish we add 2 cmc Nantuko Husks... there was one a couple sets ago but you could only activate it once.
And lastly, it reminds me that Zombies that produce multiple bodies are probably worth it.

[plaganegra]

As for the card disadvantage I did find it to be an issue, but I still have draw doublers and Rhystic Study to mitigate it, since I haven't updated the list for a while.

And lastly, it reminds me that Zombies that produce multiple bodies are probably worth it.

Was the card disadvantage an issue even with your draw doublers? I could see a better case for using them in conjunction with the moxen since they will be a lot easier to power out.

Also, what is your short list of zombies that produce multiple bodies. There are a few from the egyptian/bolas blocks that seemed playable, but none screamed "include me" last I checked because of them making armies and not regular tokens.

[yeti1069]

What are your experience with Unholy Grotto ? Feels like we don't need to play a land producing colorless that is bad a doing stuff our deck already do very well.

I will give a try to Crypt of Agadeem.

Grotto has been invaluable! I know Pokken uses it to recycle Gary, which I've also done once, but recently I had a game that I won exclusively by using Grotto to recycle Noxious Ghoul (with Phyrexian Tower in response to removal) and repeatedly wipe the board. Actually, just having those two lands in play along with Noxious deeply impacted my opponents' gameplay, because the OPTION to sac and recur the card was enough to keep them from playing out a bunch of stuff, and pushed them to try and find an answer to that. It bought me a ton of time, even when NG was in the yard, they were playing around it because I could get it back when needed.

I've also used it to get back Rot Hulk to then reanimate 3 other creatures, Sidisi to tutor (this I've probably done the most). There was one game where I played Liliana's Standard Bearer, sacrificed it, then used Grotto to put it back on top, drew it on the ETB trigger, and cast it again, drawing a chunk of cards (this all on end step).

[pokken]

What is the purpose of using tithe exactly? To me this is just a mana fixing tutor spell, that will rarely get you more than one land. Along the same lines - Weathered Wayfarer? Do you just always use the ability before you drop your land for turn? Aren't both cards "anti-synergistic" with Varina in a similar way to the 2cmc rocks? Using slots and resources to do things that are not *swinging with zombies on curve* - especially since neither card actually ramps you at all.

With fetchlands, Tithe will almost always get you 2 lands (you crack a fetch and tithe in response).

Weathered Wayfarer - if I have a wayfarer line, you can do the same thing. Crack a fetch then activate wayfarer. If I have a wayfarer hand it depends on how many lands I have. If I keep a one lander with it, I will just play slower and ride it to land drops, hit big mana and explode. You basically pretend to be one turn behind and in exchange you get either 1) ridiculously explosive mana, or 2) guaranteed Field of the Dead or Unholy Grotto depending on what you need. I'll aggressively keep a 1-lander with wayfarer -- knowing I have 6 good cards already and will hit my lands makes me comfortable being one turn behind from spending wayfarer mana.

yes, in lieu of mana rocks I'd suggest a mix of <4 mana zombies and card draw/cantrips. Most decks will want some kind of card draw/cantrips anyway, so you get slightly more of those and slightly more on curve plays.

Say you have 5 signets, you might add 3 cantrips and 2 1-2 cmc guys, hypothetically.

The reason I think Ponder is better than a signet is that you play it on turn 1 then dig to either land or a turn 2 play, then you have a turn 2 and probably a turn 3 play before Varina. It also is much better as a topdeck and lets you keep more hands.

Imagine a hand of 3 lands, Ponder vs. 3 lands and Azorius Signet as a for instance. The ponder virtually guarantees you hit your 4th land, and leaves you with turn 2 and 3 to play creatures before Varina. Playing a signet on turn 2 *requires* you have a 1 cmc zombie to have a play before Varina, Lich Queen.

2 and 3 CMC draw spells are kind of similar from a sequencing perspective; you find your third land, then you can play spells on either 1/3 or 1/2 before Varina, respectively.

YMMV etc etc. You can always just play a pair of 2-drops on turn 3 off a signet, then play Varina on 4, and that can be great. But you're a lot more likely to have multiple good early cards to play if you played a draw spell or a ponder.

It also makes me wish we add 2 cmc Nantuko Husks... there was one a couple sets ago but you could only activate it once.
And lastly, it reminds me that Zombies that produce multiple bodies are probably worth it.

seriously. I would kill for another copy of Carrion Feeder but I'd settle for a cartel zombristocrat Tainted Adversary is very high on my list to try tbh, it looks very nice and scalable. Deathtouch almost always overperforms.

also re: Skullclamp -- it is borderline busted good in my build tbh. even just making the 2/2 zombie a 3/1 that draws cards when it dies is great.

What are your experience with Unholy Grotto ?

I have not needed it most of the games I have played but I have table-killed with gary with it once.

grotto is so, so, so good since you can activate it in your turn then draw with varina, then play a card again. It lets you turn 13 black mana + gary into a straight up table kill most of the time.

It's definitely got some downsides but I probably would never cut it.

[ChocoDude]

@pokken I really like your low to the ground deck idea. It's good for those of us that have a higher budget or managed to collect now-expensive cards early on (i.e. your three ABU duals and your seven (I didn't actually count) fetch lands). In that case, I can see Ponder, Brainstorm, and Weathered Wayfarer working on turn 1 or 2, since your deck has a much higher likelihood of accessing W or U mana in your starting hand.

I wouldn't say I'm in the pauper boat in terms of cards, but I'm not in the wealthy boat either. I'm not running any of the ABU duals and non-Esper-colored fetches. And I'm just proxying a Cavern of Souls at the moment to see if I'd really spend that much on one for the deck. So, for more budget constrained decks, I can see maybe Dark Ritual working for us here instead of a Talisman. (I know you've all been saying Signets vs Cantrips, but really very few of us are running actual Signets since they're more cumbersome than Talismans.) Are there any other cards that quickly come to your mind that could be substituted for Talismans that can easily be used on turns 1 or 2 in black or colorless mana? Otherwise, it seems to me that for us more budget-constrained decks we should probably stick to the more midrange (less aggro and more control) style that this thread's titled after.

[Kvothe]

As for the card disadvantage I did find it to be an issue, but I still have draw doublers and Rhystic Study to mitigate it, since I haven't updated the list for a while.

And lastly, it reminds me that Zombies that produce multiple bodies are probably worth it.

Was the card disadvantage an issue even with your draw doublers? I could see a better case for using them in conjunction with the moxen since they will be a lot easier to power out.

Also, what is your short list of zombies that produce multiple bodies. There are a few from the egyptian/bolas blocks that seemed playable, but none screamed "include me" last I checked because of them making armies and not regular tokens.

Not really, just a couple times where I got empty handed and found myself just milling the top of the deck with Varina.
Playing them faster is also cool, yeah.

Mostly just Aven Eternal, Gleaming Overseer and Lazotep Reaver. With ways of abusing the token (Clamp, Sac Outleets) the army thing could be manageable.

Yeah, I'm on board with Clamp. I removed it a while ago because I didn't have many 1 toughness creatures but there a couple new ones I want to run.
U

[ChocoDude]

@pokken I should mention that your posts have inspired me to look my deck more carefully. I've been trying to lower my curve some while staying more midrange. I like the idea of more sac outlets, so I pilfered a Phyrexian Altar from my Atla deck and replaced Sword of the Animist with it. Additionally, I've removed some higher CMC zombies for lower on the curve ones. I've also removed Toxic Deluge and Vanquish the Horde to open up another creature slot, but I can see adding TD back in at some point. So thanks!! Now I really need to do more playtesting, but I just haven't had that time lately.

[pokken]

@pokken I really like your low to the ground deck idea. It's good for those of us that have a higher budget or managed to collect now-expensive cards early on (i.e. your three ABU duals and your seven (I didn't actually count) fetch lands). In that case, I can see Ponder, Brainstorm, and Weathered Wayfarer working on turn 1 or 2, since your deck has a much higher likelihood of accessing W or U mana in your starting hand.

I wouldn't say I'm in the pauper boat in terms of cards, but I'm not in the wealthy boat either. I'm not running any of the ABU duals and non-Esper-colored fetches. And I'm just proxying a Cavern of Souls at the moment to see if I'd really spend that much on one for the deck. So, for more budget constrained decks, I can see maybe Dark Ritual working for us here instead of a Talisman. (I know you've all been saying Signets vs Cantrips, but really very few of us are running actual Signets since they're more cumbersome than Talismans.) Are there any other cards that quickly come to your mind that could be substituted for Talismans that can easily be used on turns 1 or 2 in black or colorless mana? Otherwise, it seems to me that for us more budget-constrained decks we should probably stick to the more midrange (less aggro and more control) style that this thread's titled after.

That's a good question! I have not spent a lot of time thinking about budget manabases and what to do there. Interestingly if you're not playing Coffers/Urborg, I think you can make your manabase a lot more universal and probably have a similar chance of getting W/U as I do. There are so many great fixing lands, and the filters are relatively cheap still. stuff like Darkwater Catacombs and Fetid Heath can be had fairly cheaply. Sunken Ruins is not too unaffordable (but pushing it on a budget). Basically if you want U and W early you need to give up on 1) basics and 2) swamp count. Just jam all the $5 dual lands. There are enough even if you just play the black ones you'll have great mana.

I think Culling the Weak, Songs of the Damned and Dark Ritual, as well as Crypt of Agadeem are things I would consider as ramp options. Songs/Culling tend to be better later, but that's mostly what this deck wants is 12 mana on turn 8 so you can go off. At least that's my thoughts.

So I am going to assume you're spending a little bit on your mana ($5-10 on some lands) and you can afford to play a mostly Dimir manabase, since Weathered Wayfarer really is 1) much better with the full expensive land package, and 2) adds a W demand as well.

So you run something like:

• Exotic Orchard
• Command Tower
• Fetid Heath
• Hallowed Fountain
• Watery Grave
• Godless Shrine
• River of Tears
• Tainted Isle
• Tainted Field
• Arcane Sanctum
• Temple of Deceit
• Temple of Silence
• Drowned Catacomb
• Isolated Chapel
• Silent Clearing
• Underground River
• Caves of Koilos
• vault of champions
• Shipwreck Marsh
• Shattered Sanctum

You can think about Dreadship Reef too, I might think about that if I were playing on a budget since it's got explosive potential in a more controlling shell.
Then like...8 swamps 4 islands 2 plains? Then fill it out with a few more duals or basics depending on your tastes.

So this gets you into the territory of having enough blue and black sources to be pretty confident you are going to turn 1 or 2 cantrip.

Adding Temple of Deceit / Temple of Silence gives you a couple more turn 1 plays where you can scry to try to hit lands or whatever. Same with Arcane Sanctum. You can think of those as honorary 1-drops kinda.

--

So things I would think about running at 1/2:

• skullclamp
• mystic remora
• ponder
• preordain
• portent
• serum visions
• night's whisper
• impulse
• arcane denial
• remand
• chart a course
• shadow of doubt
• scarscale ritual
• tolarian winds
• ransack the lab
• sign in blood

I would not definitely not play all of those, bit a mix of those and 1-2 cmc zombies makes some sense. For me I probably play Skullclamp, Mystic Remora, the 1 drop sorceries, Impulse, Night's Whisper, Arcane Denial and maybe Remand and I think really hard about Tolarian Winds (since dumping a bunch of fatties can be great...there's probably a design of this deck that plays Breakthrough and Careful Study and lives a lot out of the graveyard).

An alternative approach would be an Orzhov heavy build with more white lands than blue, and leaning on planning to cast a Hour of Revelation / Devastating Mastery / Vanquish the Horde effect early in the game. I think the Orzhov build plays fewer higher impact zombies and maybe some token effects? Field of the Dead + Anointed Procession + the new Orzhov walker that lets you double tokens, etc?

You can play stuff like Angelic Renewal and similar effects to make sure Varina stays on the field, maybe even wombo combo stuff like Flawless Maneuver + Vanquish the Horde (WW In Garruk's Wake). Gift of Estates also quite playable on a budget in white.

[ChocoDude]

That's a great list. Thank you. I like Ransack the Lab in that you can dig three deep and possibly add creatures to your yard. Yes, Night's Whisper and Sign In Blood make sense. Also, my decklists are linked to the mana symbols next to my Commanders list at the bottom. So, you'll probably see that I also have a midrangey-to-higher-budget mana base. I'm trying to avoid ETB-tapped lands and only have two in there: Path of Ancestry and Bojuka Bog. I've always had a hard time with the Bog though as it often shows up when I don't need it and just sits in my hand since it enters tapped. I may pull it for Exotic Orchard, but then besides Withered Wretch, I don't think I have any way of exiling creatures in opposing graveyards. If you can reanimate Noxious Ghoul then that usually isn't an issue, but that's not always going to happen.

So, I probably have decent access to W or U in my starting hand a fair bit of the time, but my current manabase wouldn't allow for it to curve out as smoothly as yours. I do have a couple unused Weathered Wayfarers and Cabal Coffers too, since I bought my first MTG packs of Revised in 1992. However, I didn't play much over the years and haven't collected many of the super-expensive bombs.

I have previously thought about using Gift of Estates as it's, in essence, a three-card draw for two mana most of the time, but currently I'm only running four plains (two basics and the two shocks...I really wish they would finish the Bicycle Land cycle), so I should probably up the number of plains to make its effect more consistently a three-card draw.

[pokken]

That's a great list. Thank you. I like Ransack the Lab in that you can dig three deep and possibly add creatures to your yard. Yes, Night's Whisper and Sign In Blood make sense. Also, my decklists are linked to the mana symbols next to my Commanders list at the bottom. So, you'll probably see that I also have a midrangey-to-higher-budget mana base. I'm trying to avoid ETB-tapped lands and only have two in there: Path of Ancestry and Bojuka Bog. I've always had a hard time with the Bog though as it often shows up when I don't need it and just sits in my hand since it enters tapped. I may pull it for Exotic Orchard, but then besides Withered Wretch, I don't think I have any way of exiling creatures in opposing graveyards. If you can reanimate Noxious Ghoul then that usually isn't an issue, but that's not always going to happen.

So, I probably have decent to W or U in my starting hand a fair bit of the time, but my current manabase wouldn't allow for it to curve out as smoothly as yours. I do have a couple unused Weathered Wayfarers and Cabal Coffers too, since I bought my first MTG packs of Revised in 1992. However, I didn't play much over the years and haven't collected many of the super-expensive bombs.

I have previously thought about using Gift of Estates as it's, in essence, a three-card draw for two mana most of the time, but currently I'm only running four plains, so I should probably up the number of plains to make its effect more consistently a three-card draw.

yeah, I am not a big fan of tapped lands either but they are a pretty solid thing to do on a budget. Particularly the temples I a big fan of. Bojuka Bog is a hard cut in my opinion - but Path of Ancestry definitely defensible, probably before a temple I think? Scrying without requiring a creature is nice, but tricolor is nicer probably

The whole thing is very complex honestly, you've got to put the manabase together you're comfortable with that fits your gameplan, and line up the type of cards you want to play. But I think all the pieces exist out there to fill out your curve without needing to play a lot of rocks.

I think I only have around 6 or 7 plains which is one of the reasons I didn't play Gift of Estates with Tithe -- there're so many things that cascade from playing fetchlands, like Brainstorm and Sensei's Divining Top being much better, and on and on.

I didn't mention Expedition Map either, but I've talked about that a lot. I think if you have a Nykthos, grotto, and a sac outlet land that it's worth playing Map.

[ChocoDude]

I am playing Expedition Map and have found it to be quite good. Thanks for your thought on Bojuka Bog. That's enough to push me to use Exotic Orchard. I may try out Weathered Wayfarer and one of either Brainstorm or Ponder in place of the two talismans I'm running. We'll see how the playtesting goes with those and how easy or difficult it'll be casting them on turns 1 or 2.

[pokken]

I am playing Expedition Map and have found it to be quite good. Thanks for your thought on Bojuka Bog. That's enough to push me to use Exotic Orchard. I may try out Weathered Wayfarer and one of either Brainstorm or Ponder in place of the two talismans I'm running. We'll see how the playtesting goes with those and how easy or difficult it'll be casting them on turns 1 or 2.

So I had a close look at your list. I think I'd play Skullclamp and Mystic Remora if you own them. Weathered Wayfarer and Ponder look like a good take though, finding Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx or Phyrexian Tower or Unholy Grotto or even just a stream of lands should make it worthwhile.

Skullclamp is a kinda weird card in that it's minor counter-synergy with varina in that you don't want to be clamping your guys early for cards, but if you *must* hit a land drop you can clamp one of your x/1s. But it has huge play in the late game when you're able to clamp your guys post-combat to help dig into winconditions.

And one more potential angle to think about is adding Putrid Goblin if you're into comboing. You have Mike and sac outlets, so

I like a lot of what you're doing there, particularly interested in how Empty the Laboratory winds up playing. That card looks really good. and should synergize really well the archghoul and headless rider.

[ChocoDude]

Yeah I do have Skullclamp and the Remora at the ready. I'm not sure about Skullclamp being that I don't have that many X/1 creatures in my deck. Mystic Remora is a maybe. I've run it in here before and it's been decent, but I always end up cutting it as it targets a single player and the cumulative upkeep. Typically, I've drawn 1-3 cards from it before choosing to not pay the upkeep cost. That's maybe as good as Ponder, but with Ponder I can immediately see the next three cards and draw one or just shuffle the entire library.

I saw Putrid Goblin in your list and thought how great that would be with Mike, but I'm actually not really into infinite combos and folks in my meta don't like them much either. I avoided putting in Phyrexian Altar for quite a while because of it plus Gravecrawler, but I actually do have several decks where I'll have one or two infinite combos in there that I won't actively tutor for but may play if the game goes long similar to what someone previously wrote in this thread in the last day or two. I just figure the Altar is a great sac outlet for looping mass reanimations or avoiding creature exiles, etc.

As for Empty the Laboratory, my experience has been similar to what @yeti1069 wrote about earlier today. It's been pretty good swapping lower valued card-zombies or tokens for better card-zombies. I'm quite happy it was printed!

[pokken]

Yeah I do have Skullclamp and the Remora at the ready. I'm not sure about Skullclamp being that I don't have that many X/1 creatures in my deck.

I was really surprised by how many I had - 13 x/1s. But with all the sacrifice outlets it's pretty synergistic.

I hear you on Mystic Remora - it really depends on your meta whether it's good..

[plaganegra]

With fetchlands, Tithe will almost always get you 2 lands (you crack a fetch and tithe in response).

Weathered Wayfarer - if I have a wayfarer line, you can do the same thing. Crack a fetch then activate wayfarer. If I have a wayfarer hand it depends on how many lands I have. If I keep a one lander with it, I will just play slower and ride it to land drops, hit big mana and explode. You basically pretend to be one turn behind and in exchange you get either 1) ridiculously explosive mana, or 2) guaranteed Field of the Dead or Unholy Grotto depending on what you need. I'll aggressively keep a 1-lander with wayfarer -- knowing I have 6 good cards already and will hit my lands makes me comfortable being one turn behind from spending wayfarer mana.

yes, in lieu of mana rocks I'd suggest a mix of <4 mana zombies and card draw/cantrips. Most decks will want some kind of card draw/cantrips anyway, so you get slightly more of those and slightly more on curve plays.

The reason I think Ponder is better than a signet is that you play it on turn 1 then dig to either land or a turn 2 play, then you have a turn 2 and probably a turn 3 play before Varina. It also is much better as a topdeck and lets you keep more hands.

Imagine a hand of 3 lands, Ponder vs. 3 lands and Azorius Signet as a for instance. The ponder virtually guarantees you hit your 4th land, and leaves you with turn 2 and 3 to play creatures before Varina. Playing a signet on turn 2 *requires* you have a 1 cmc zombie to have a play before Varina, Lich Queen.

This definitely pushes the deck towards more fetches - I never thought to play the plains cards that way so thank you!

Basically you are using the cantrips as a 1-drop instead of a zombie which makes sense since we are not very strong in that slot beyond the ~4 staples.

Looking at your list:

• I am surprised you aren't running snapcaster mage?
• Reins of Power is an interesting inclusion - why do you run it?
• Your deck seems very light on interaction/targeted removal - assuming you prefer just to go all in on your strategy. Does your playgroup not run difficult permanents that get in the way of you doing that?
• How come you don't run the moxen or any other ramp? 1-land per turn is enough?
• Stitcher's Supplier - the random mill doesn't annoy you? haha. I wish it didn't annoy me because 1-drops are in short supply.
• Dread Wanderer - how often is this more than just a CIPT 2/1?
• Boneknitter has been in and out of my list. What is your experience with it?

[pokken]

Looking at your list:
I am surprised you aren't running snapcaster mage?
Reins of Power is an interesting inclusion - why do you run it?
Your deck seems very light on interaction/targeted removal - assuming you prefer just to go all in on your strategy. Does your playgroup not run difficult permanents that get in the way of you doing that?
How come you don't run the moxen or any other ramp? 1-land per turn is enough?
Stitcher's Supplier - the random mill doesn't annoy you? haha. I wish it didn't annoy me because 1-drops are in short supply.
Dread Wanderer - how often is this more than just a CIPT 2/1?
Boneknitter has been in and out of my list. What is your experience with it?

Good questions for sure.

Reins of Power was a relic of when I was running Ashnod's Altar - it basically let me instant speed sac my opponent's board. It's also a really, really good card in creature combat heavy metas though. It's just won me so many games over the years I tend to throw it in if I have a lot of non-creature sac outlets. It's getting cut for Overcharged Amalgam as soon as it gets here

(re: reins - with Ashnod's Altar you can make it super cheap too by sac'ing any of your sac outlets to prevent them from being able to torch your board. if I ever decide to go the 3-4 altar build with Altar of Dementia and Blasting Station I would definitely play it again)

Yeah I am super light on interaction; I tend to start my decks that way because I like to see what need for it is. That said, this deck is asking all the questions so far. I've got enough countermagic, all the sweepers, and Dictate of Erebos. That said, I am going to struggle if someone sticks a Rest in Peace - my answer to them is to aggro that person out of the game lol So far, no one seems to ever be playing graveyard hate enough to do anything other than be slightly annoying. I think I probably want like, one more counterspell (likely Remand or Ertai's Meddling) and maybe a Cyclonic Rift tbh, but not much else.

Snapcaster Mage - I'm really trying to keep the zombie count low, it's down to just Weathered Wayfarer. I don't want to be exiling my mass reanimation spells because they're combo pieces with Repository Skaab. I think it's a lot better in decks running Swords to Plowshares and more instant speed interaction.

Stitcher's Supplier - a lesson I learned from playing a lot of competitive magic is that getting cards milled is just not bad even if you have no synergy; it's as likely to mill you past bad cards as it is to mill your good cards. But supplier just does so much. It's a x/1 for Skullclamp, it wins the game with a Repository Skaab loop, it digs me 6 cards toward things I want to reanimate, it fills my graveyard with lands Crucible of Worlds, and it's a 1 CMC zombie to attack. I think it's 100% autoinclude in varina. (I should add that I have a decent bit of topdeck manipulation that also incidentally synergizes with stitcher)

Dread Wanderer it's a 1 drop zombie with 2 power with minor upside if I get into a grind war. so far it's been a 2/1 for 1 That notably does create a Skullclamp loop of 3B: draw 2. I get pretty low on cards a lot because I discard a lot.

Boneknitter - been a 2 mana zombie so far. It's definitely cuttable. I keep thinking about swapping it for Fierce Guardianship. Might also cut it for Tainted Adversary

[toctheyounger]

Crimson Vow Set Review

---

Well we've all been talking all of this stuff over, but primer rules are primer rules and set reviews are a thing we ought to do where possible. I wanted to wait until the precons were out too, and there really wasn't anything I wanted to add from them so lets run through it.

Artifacts/Colorless/Lands

There really isn't anything here for us at all. Shattered Sanctum variants are a good possibility for colour fixing, but for myself I'll pass.

White

• By Invitation Only - Seems reasonable, but at the same time I'm less on this than Tragic Arrogance, or Fleshbag Marauder variants.

Blue

• Geralf, Visionary Stitcher - Geralf just isn't a zombie tribal card. He's there for flavor, and I've never been interested in any of his variants. This one is no exception.
• Necroduality - I know we all want it, but can y'all keep quiet and stop hyping it so I can afford it once it drops? It's a straight lock, I think it'd be disgusting wherever you put it. I really like the art too.
• Overcharged Amalgam - Pretty good utility, and I think there's a place for it in my build. Venser for zombies. Being on an etb means the possibility of cheating CMC with Apprentice Necromancer and Mikaeus, the Unhallowed, so that's always nice.
• Repository Skaab - Yeah, this is a thing of beauty and anyone running mass reanimation strats knows it. With Ashnod's Altar and Phyrexian Altar we get into the area of being able to loop these spells to just go off and a zombie blood storm win. Chef's kiss, I love it as much as I knew I would. Tempts me to run Phyrexian Altar to cheese out that reanimation plan even, but....$120 NZD. Jesus.
• Scattered Thoughts - Actually a decent card, and a Fact or Fiction variant that compares relatively well. I definitely prefer the mind game that comes with Fact though, I just wanted to give it a shout out.
• Selhoff Entomber - Stocks your yard, so that's nice. But in saying that, attacking with him would too, so I think in most circumstances I think it's just a blank card.
• Wash Away - I've seen this hyped a lot. I think it's a trap. Countering a commander spell always feels bad, and Cancel otherwise is not great either. I think I'll pass here, and probably elsewhere too.

Black

• Archghoul of Thraben - It seems one of those cards that could be really good or could be middling. I think it's going to be a little build dependent, but there's promise there.
• Cemetery Desecrator - This is pretty awful and I'm not even slightly interested.
• Dying to Serve - I love the pun, the flavor text and everything about the card in general, but it's weaker than Zombie Infestation and I don't run that, I could see it in a self mill/discard shell though, and post VOW I actually think that's a viable build.
• Fell Stinger - I really like this for stuff like Meren of Clan Nel Toth and such, but with our 3 slot being so tight I think it misses the cut here.
• Headless Rider - I used to really like Open the Graves in the early iteration of the list, so having it cheaper on a creature is a beautiful thing. It's a must have for me.

Multicolored

• Skull Skaab - I could see this in an attrition list almost, but being tied specifically to exploit as a mechanic is a tiny bit tough so it might just be too narrow.

And there it is. I really do feel bad for tribal vampire fans, this should've been their set, instead it was ours. There's enough for us in this set to open up a really wide array of different build shells for Varina, and tribal zombies in general. so for us it really is a home run.

I'm keen to add some of this and have the build be a bit more fixed for a while. with no upcoming releases alluding to any particular undead themes. I'd really like to get some gameplay in too; I tried yesterday, and had connectivity problems, so it obviously wasn't meant to be. Bit frustrating for the first gameplay opportunity in the better part of a month but what can you do? I'll just keep trying to free up spare time around my kid and my work and hope for the best.

[pokken]

Man I forgot about Dying to Serve - If we had more, better discard outlets I think there could be an angle for using that and Lazotep Chancellor to really go ham. You could definitely see that going like, Putrid Imp, discard a card pay 1 make two dudes, etc. Just gotta turn the zomboes into cards or something

[plaganegra]

Stitcher's Supplier - a lesson I learned from playing a lot of competitive magic is that getting cards milled is just not bad even if you have no synergy; it's as likely to mill you past bad cards as it is to mill your good cards. But supplier just does so much. It's a x/1 for Skullclamp, it wins the game with a Repository Skaab loop, it digs me 6 cards toward things I want to reanimate, it fills my graveyard with lands Crucible of Worlds, and it's a 1 CMC zombie to attack. I think it's 100% autoinclude in varina. (I should add that I have a decent bit of topdeck manipulation that also incidentally synergizes with stitcher)

Repository Skaab loops are a thing now - can we all just rejoice again?! lol

I do suppose Stitcher's supplier puts your whole deck into your GY if you can loop it. Looping Skaab with a mass reanimate spell seems kind of hard to pull off more than once though. You would need to have phyrexian altar and enough zombies to sacrifice to recast your mass reanimate, which I think is a minimum of 6 + the Skaab right? 1 for the exploit and 5 for living death. This is where stitcher's supplier can help a lot since it can fill your GY with more dudes to sac on subsequent loops.

Are there any other ways to loop the new guy indefinitely?

Thanks for the insights. Sadly I have enchantress decks, permission decks, random annoying jank I have to remove all the time lol. So my deck is packed with answers, necessarily.

@toctheyounger thanks for the set review! I am sure they will reprint Phyrexian altar when they eventually do that "phyrexian" set they have been TEASING ME WITH forever. And probably a secret lair to boot. Also, I think Necroduality is a $10 or less card. The presale price is dropping like a hot rock because in the end it is a very niche card that probably will see zero play outside of zombie edh. Traditionally cards like that are not expensive.

[toctheyounger]

@toctheyounger thanks for the set review! I am sure they will reprint phyrexian altar when they eventually do that "phyrexian" set they have been TEASING ME WITH forever. And probably a secret lair to boot.

I actually do have a copy. Its in Yawgmoth himself, which sees a lot less play than Varina. By rights in terms of playtime it should be in here, I just wanted to avoid degeneracy where possible. Its really only the Gravecrawler thing that makes it go brrrrr, so maybe it'd be worth just getting in here anyway.

[plaganegra]

@toctheyounger thanks for the set review! I am sure they will reprint phyrexian altar when they eventually do that "phyrexian" set they have been TEASING ME WITH forever. And probably a secret lair to boot.

I actually do have a copy. Its in Yawgmoth himself, which sees a lot less play than Varina. By rights in terms of playtime it should be in here, I just wanted to avoid degeneracy where possible. Its really only the Gravecrawler thing that makes it go brrrrr, so maybe it'd be worth just getting in here anyway.

Haha I agree. Yawgmoth will be very displeased by this but the card is better in Varina! If the degeneracy worries you, don't. I often avoid using the combo even when I have access to it unless a game needs to end. IMO in this format every deck should have a combo that can end the game when it goes too long or gets annoying, for the sake of everyone's sanity lol