Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

[Reya]

I'm scratching my head to find my optimal build. We got so many possibilities it's crazy. Thing is, I only playtest on Xmage and updates are slow (I still can't playtest with Midnight Hunt and I'm already dying to playtest Crimson Vow!).

I share my last build with you because I would like to brainstorm a little bit. Here is the list: https://deckstats.net/decks/144003/1457764-varina

- 3 mass reanimation effects, probably the bare minimum for me. I could go up to 4.
- 2 Board wipes, I will never play less. I could go up to 3 here.
- 1 Draw doubling effect. I recently cutted Alhammaret's Archive because this kind of effect tends to be "overkill". We don't realy need them to win. The deck already draw a decent amount of cards. I could probably cut the last one in the future.
- 37 lands + 9 mana sources (I consider Phyrexian Altar + Land Tax as mana sources, those two cards help you find mana or create mana). From my own experience, 46 mana sources is a very good number for any EDH decks. I recently found this page that coroborates this number:
- 3 spots removal. Instant speed only and unconditionnal. Only 3 is maybe not enough.
- 3 Counterspell. You always want to protect your mass reanimation spell.

About some specific choices:

- Sword of the animist: Esper build struggle to ramp. This is a good card but it's not great... this one could be cuted soon for a signet. 4 mana to ramp a land is too expensive. If you can activate it multiple times it's fine. But when things don't go as planed, it's too much mana investment.
- Land Tax: the synergy with Varina is too good to not playing it.
- Wonder: recent addition. One of the best option we have for evasion. Difficult for your opponent to interact with. Perfect synergy with Varina. I used to play Archfiend of Ifnir. Wonder has almost the same role: let you keep swinging. The card do it in a cheaper way and your opponent can't see it coming or stop it.
- Repository Skaab: one of our next staple
- Necroduality: probably one of the most powerful effect we can have in a zombie tribal. A game breaker enchantment with mass reanimation.
- Champion of the Perished: lower the curve and becomes big very fast.
- Bladestitched Skaab: cheap lord effect.
- Binding Mummy: I won several games thanks to this card. It always do its job.
- Headless Rider: incredibly powerful effect. You are now almost board wipe proof.
- Master of Death: a free Phyrexian Arena with Varina, I can't imagine not playing this guy here. Don't forget he synergies very well with Cryptbreaker.

Now, I think I run too much zombies! I think I should make room for more interaction, wipes and reanimation.

I need to find a place to playtest Overcharged Amalgam too. I think the card is great, even if we need to hold 4 mana. Not necesseraly a must have but I'm sure we can have great plays with it.

Maybe we can cut a drawing zombie. Between Midnight Reaper, Undead Augur, Archghoul of Thraben, Graveborn muse and Liliana's Standard Bearer, it's kind of redundancy. Maybe one can be removed from the list.

Diregraf Colossus: it's weird but I think we don't need that card in a Varina Shell. We have enough token generation already. Colossus don't pump your tribe, don't have any evasion ability and don't draw you cards. I think we can cut it! (Or I'm mad with that decision ?).

[Nikerym]

I dont really get the hype on Repository Skaab seems slow, and if we really wanted that effect on a zombie before we could have played Possessed Skaab yet noone did..

[Artaud]

I dont really get the hype on Repository Skaab seems slow, and if we really wanted that effect on a zombie before we could have played Possessed Skaab yet noone did..

You cannot loop Living Death or Bidding with Possessed Skaab as it gets exiled when dies. Also one mana difference can be a lot in some situations.

[pokken]

I should add that it goes actually infinite with enough zombies and phyrexian altar too which is nice

[yeti1069]

I'm scratching my head to find my optimal build. We got so many possibilities it's crazy. Thing is, I only playtest on Xmage and updates are slow (I still can't playtest with Midnight Hunt and I'm already dying to playtest Crimson Vow!).

I share my last build with you because I would like to brainstorm a little bit. Here is the list: https://deckstats.net/decks/144003/1457764-varina

- 3 mass reanimation effects, probably the bare minimum for me. I could go up to 4.
- 2 Board wipes, I will never play less. I could go up to 3 here.
- 1 Draw doubling effect. I recently cutted Alhammaret's Archive because this kind of effect tends to be "overkill". We don't realy need them to win. The deck already draw a decent amount of cards. I could probably cut the last one in the future.
- 37 lands + 9 mana sources (I consider Phyrexian Altar + Land Tax as mana sources, those two cards help you find mana or create mana). From my own experience, 46 mana sources is a very good number for any EDH decks. I recently found this page that coroborates this number:
- 3 spots removal. Instant speed only and unconditionnal. Only 3 is maybe not enough.
- 3 Counterspell. You always want to protect your mass reanimation spell.

About some specific choices:

- Sword of the animist: Esper build struggle to ramp. This is a good card but it's not great... this one could be cuted soon for a signet. 4 mana to ramp a land is too expensive. If you can activate it multiple times it's fine. But when things don't go as planed, it's too much mana investment.
- Land Tax: the synergy with Varina is too good to not playing it.
- Wonder: recent addition. One of the best option we have for evasion. Difficult for your opponent to interact with. Perfect synergy with Varina. I used to play Archfiend of Ifnir. Wonder has almost the same role: let you keep swinging. The card do it in a cheaper way and your opponent can't see it coming or stop it.
- Repository Skaab: one of our next staple
- Necroduality: probably one of the most powerful effect we can have in a zombie tribal. A game breaker enchantment with mass reanimation.
- Champion of the Perished: lower the curve and becomes big very fast.
- Bladestitched Skaab: cheap lord effect.
- Binding Mummy: I won several games thanks to this card. It always do its job.
- Headless Rider: incredibly powerful effect. You are now almost board wipe proof.
- Master of Death: a free Phyrexian Arena with Varina, I can't imagine not playing this guy here. Don't forget he synergies very well with Cryptbreaker.

Now, I think I run too much zombies! I think I should make room for more interaction, wipes and reanimation.

I need to find a place to playtest Overcharged Amalgam too. I think the card is great, even if we need to hold 4 mana. Not necesseraly a must have but I'm sure we can have great plays with it.

Maybe we can cut a drawing zombie. Between Midnight Reaper, Undead Augur, Archghoul of Thraben, Graveborn muse and Liliana's Standard Bearer, it's kind of redundancy. Maybe one can be removed from the list.

Diregraf Colossus: it's weird but I think we don't need that card in a Varina Shell. We have enough token generation already. Colossus don't pump your tribe, don't have any evasion ability and don't draw you cards. I think we can cut it! (Or I'm mad with that decision ?).

I kind of prefer 4 mass reanimation effects, and have had Twilight's Call and Haunting Voyage in the deck at different times (I just dropped Voyage). Hard to make room for everything.

For board wipes, I think 2 + Noxious Ghoul + Cyclonic Rift is probably enough. If not running Cyc Rift, I could see going up to a 3rd.
My spot removal suite feels light as well with 4, but again, space.

I think 46 mana sources may be too many for this deck, given how many cards it sees, but I also tend to run tight on lands in decks.

[yeti1069]

I dont really get the hype on Repository Skaab seems slow, and if we really wanted that effect on a zombie before we could have played Possessed Skaab yet noone did..

I'd considered the Possessed Skaab numerous times, but 5 mana, cannot be recurred, doesn't trigger any of our relevant death triggers, and has a pretty crappy body for the cost meant that I never slotted it in. Repository Skaab, on the other hand, is a mana cheaper, a slightly better body, can sacrifice something (useful at times), can be recurred, and can set up loops. In some ways, it's better than Archaeomancer, which has always been a fairly strong card.

[pokken]

I kind of prefer 4 mass reanimation effects, and have had Twilight's Call and Haunting Voyage in the deck at different times (I just dropped Voyage). Hard to make room for everything.

For board wipes, I think 2 + Noxious Ghoul + Cyclonic Rift is probably enough. If not running Cyc Rift, I could see going up to a 3rd.
My spot removal suite feels light as well with 4, but again, space.

I think 46 mana sources may be too many for this deck, given how many cards it sees, but I also tend to run tight on lands in decks.

I am fairly sure that the optimal wipe package for this deck is Spellseeker, Cyclonic Rift and Winds of Abandon, with a nod to Living Death and Noxious Ghoul and potentially Dictate of Erebos as wipes. I am not running Seeker because it's just doesn't fit my conception of the deck, but at the 'highly optimized at doing varina things' level (say, an 8/10 deck) I think it should probably be played. The ability to find Mystical Tutor for a mass reanimation spell, or Cyclonic Rift is simply too powerful. Toxic Deluge is reasonable, but takes yet another slot of zombies.

In my build I play 36 lands plus:

• Sol ring
• crucible of worlds
• phyrexian altar
• expedition map
• brainstorm
• ponder
• weathered wayfarer
• tithe

Which works out to 44 "mana sources" although it's reasonable to think of cantrips as 1/2 of a mana source. Since my curve is extremely aggressive in comparison to most people's (2.7-8 vs. 3.0-3.2) I think closer to 46-47 is probably correct.

--

That said I want to say something I have said before, and that is that 2 cmc rocks have active counter-synergy with Varina. They create awful sequences where you want to wait to cast Varina because you don't have a board, so you're in danger of missing land drops. Even if you're playing a more controlling role and want to cast Varina later, you'd be better off with cards that are not duds late in the game like Ponder.

The problem with signets is that because they are active counter-synergy with Varina (by not being able to swing), if you play signets you also wind up having to play extra draw spells and cantrips to support finding lands, which soaks up your zombie slots, further diluting your gameplan.

While I don't think my build of Varina is anywhere near "optimal" I do think that an "optimal" varina build fills every signet slot with more zombies or zombie enablers or cantrips. If you can't afford the Mox Diamond / Chrome Mox package, you should run a mix of cheap card draw/cantrips/land tutors and 2-drop zombies.

Casting Varina on turn 3 does basically nothing for you except expose her to removal, so she should sequence a lot more like Winota, Joiner of Forces who does not play signets properly.

Both Expedition Map and Weathered Wayfarer will actively outperform signets in almost any Varina deck. If you have a 'zombies only' ethos, playing Beseech the Queen is a reasonable approach over Wayfarer.

If you're building for "highest powered varina focused gameplan" would run around 35 lands (needed to fit Unholy Grotto, Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, Cabal Coffers and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, as well as potentially Phyrexian Tower).

Then you would run something fairly close to the following:

• sol ring
• mana crypt
• mox diamond
• chrome mox
• dark ritual
• brainstorm
• ponder
• preordain
• tithe
• culling the weak
• gemstone caverns

If you're not into spending $700 on mana rocks or don't have them, sub stuff like Expedition Map or Beseech the Queen or Cosmic Intervention or similar depending on your fetchland count. Obviously the nykthos/cabal coffers package has gotten expensive too, so if all of that is out of your budget as well, then I would suggest skipping mana rocks entirely and playing card draw spells. Things like Frantic Search and Impulse can fix bad hands and ensure you get a zombie or two out before Varina hits...while also being great topdecks late in the game**.

Cards like Impulse, Frantic Search, Night's Whisper and Painful Truths are going to significantly outperform signets most of the time in varina builds. And I want to reiterate that you still wind up having to play some of these kinds of cards even if you also play mana rocks! That's where the tension comes in and starts eating up your slots.

The deck is so ludicrously mana efficient with the bombs being 5/6 mana and rarely wanting to actually pay mana for the expensive creatures. It's hard to intuit that from looking at the charts.

I'm going to write this up in my thread eventually so it's the last time I will discuss it heavily in here so as not to derail too hard, but if I had to sum it up, I'd say:
Talisman of Dominance is *not* a substitute for Chrome Mox in this deck. Ramping on turn 1 or 0 is so different from ramping on turn 2 that you'd be better off changing ramp gameplan to hitting your land drops than trying to replace 0 mana rocks with 2 mana rocks.

If you want inspiration look at the manabase in a high powered Winota, Joiner of Forces deck as it's very similar to what Varina should probably be playing.

** A thing I should add is that the slower you play, the more cards like Toxic Deluge, Vanquish the Horde,Supreme Verdict, Devastating Mastery and Hour of Revelation become attractive. If you're playing a budget varina build with more card draw and fewer zombies, it's probably a good idea to think about playing more sweepers. With the assumption that most games you will want to sweep the board, *then* drop a couple zombies into Varina. I don't think this strategy is particularly great, but it's something I could see doing.

[toctheyounger]

I generally agree regarding mana rocks. I was personally pretty reluctant to add back in, but without the depth at 1 and 2 I found I needed a couple of pieces to just make sure I could hit zombies early whether they be 1,2 or 3 drops. Ideally though I'd have more depth lower to the ground, I'm just struggling to track some of those pieces down.

[Reya]

@pokken It's a very interesting approach for the deck and I totaly get your point on mana rocks and their non-synergy with Varina. Thing is, you play a very aggressive list with a low mana curve (although mine is actualy 2.79, even with only 4 one mana zombies and 6 mana rocks with mana value 2).
My actual list is probably slower and less on the "combo-explosive" side of Varina. That's why I probably feel I need boards wipes here. And I always have the feeling that our one land drop a turn is not enough in multiplayer games. A huge amount of EDH games are won thanks to ramping better than your opponents. With Esper builds, we are in the weak spot or mana acceleration and when things don't go as planed, we often need more than the one land a turn to recover or keep going. But maybe I'm wrong here.

But I think you made a very good post about mana rocks on that deck and I will definitely give a try to Mox Diamond and Chrome Mox (fortunately I already own a few Mox Diamond!). I will playtest with less mana rocks and see if things goes well ! ( I admit I already have (maybe too many times) the awful feeling when your first zombie arrives on turn 3...)

[Reya]

So I just playtested a game without mana rocks. Mox Diamond came early and was obviously amazing with Land Tax. Chrome Mox would have been good too in that game but I didn't draw it. I did not missed rocks on that game. I drew Sword of the Animist and, as you said @pokken, it was kind of anti synergic and a loss of tempo. I could have played one more zombie if I wasn't been greedy when equiping the sword.

For my test I now play 38 lands, just to be more confident at playing Mox Diamond and Land Tax. Maybe I should try to play more basic lands ? What do you think ? Or maybe Crucible of world is something I should definitely try instead of Sword of the animist ? Varina dumps so much things in the grave and playing lands that you discard with Varina could act like a pseudo Phyrexian Arena, which is probably a key synergy for this deck. I'm still not totaly convinced with the idea of playing Expedition Map but playing 38 lands is probably enough to not run it (or switch to Weathered Wayfarer).

This Commander is amazing. I playtest it since 2 years and after a small discussion about mana rocks, I want to try a totaly new approach for the next few weeks :D

[pokken]

It's a very interesting approach for the deck and I totaly get your point on mana rocks and their non-synergy with Varina. Thing is, you play a very aggressive list with a low mana curve (although mine is actualy 2.79, even with only 4 one mana zombies and 6 mana rocks with mana value 2).
My actual list is probably slower and less on the "combo-explosive" side of Varina. That's why I probably feel I need boards wipes here. And I always have the feeling that our one land drop a turn is not enough in multiplayer games. A huge amount of EDH games are won thanks to ramping better than your opponents. With Esper builds, we are in the weak spot or mana acceleration and when things don't go as planed, we often need more than the one land a turn to recover or keep going. But maybe I'm wrong here.

But I think you made a very good post about mana rocks on that deck and I will definitely give a try to Mox Diamond and Chrome Mox (fortunately I already own a few Mox Diamond!). I will playtest with less mana rocks and see if things goes well ! ( I admit I already have (maybe too many times) the awful feeling when your first zombie arrives on turn 3...)

So I don't just play one land per turn, I also aggressively tutor for Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, Cabal Coffers or Phyrexian Altar so by turn 6 or so I usually have 10+ mana available if not more. It's pretty easy to find the explosive mana with Intuition and Expedition Map and Weathered Wayfarer. The deck definitely has some mana hunger, but it's more like "I want 12 mana so I can go off" not "I want 4 mana on turn 3 so I can cast varina early".

The other interesting thing about "ramping better than your opponents" is if you put 20 zombies in the bin and then cast Twilight's Call for 6 mana, and make 40 mana worth of zombies, you have out-ramped your opponents

There're a lot of ways to skin the cat for sure but I would virtually guarantee more success with the faster mana than with signets. Look forward to hearing how you do -- I might tune up my build that way as well if people get too hatey on my zombie aggro.

So I just playtested a game without mana rocks. Mox Diamond came early and was obviously amazing with Land Tax. Chrome Mox would have been good too in that game but I didn't draw it. I did not missed rocks on that game. I drew Sword of the Animist and, as you said @pokken, it was kind of anti synergic and a loss of tempo. I could have played one more zombie if I wasn't been greedy when equiping the sword.

For my test I now play 38 lands, just to be more confident at playing Mox Diamond and Land Tax. Maybe I should try to play more basic lands ? What do you think ? Or maybe Crucible of world is something I should definitely try instead of Sword of the animist ? Varina dumps so much things in the grave and playing lands that you discard with Varina could act like a pseudo Phyrexian Arena, which is probably a key synergy for this deck. I'm still not totaly convinced with the idea of playing Expedition Map but playing 38 lands is probably enough to not run it (or switch to Weathered Wayfarer).

This Commander is amazing. I playtest it since 2 years and after a small discussion about mana rocks, I want to try a totaly new approach for the next few weeks :D

Yeah Varina is super damn good and fun man, I have received tons of compliments on my deck and it's very fun to play.

I have had very good luck with Crucible of Worlds -- doing exactly what you say, and also being able to discard or Intuition powerhouse lands and play them. It is for me also an endgame engine with Field of the Dead if I get wiped too much

I think 38 is maybe a bit overcautious, would consider Tithe instead of 38th land at minimum.

[Reya]

You definitely have a very agressive strategy While listening to you I might be tempted to buy some nasty stuff in the next few weeks (Nykthos, Cabal, Intuition, Crucible, Chrome, my wallet won't be happy I guess).

But for now I'm more on a conservative and slower approach. There is things like Necroduality that I realy want to see in action. (And my playgroup won't invite me anymore if I start annihilate them with an agressive combo approach for Varina :D ) (Plus, I find game more attractives when there is more variance. But again, totaly depends on the power level within your friends).

So I should probably going in your direction for the mana base and try to find a less explosive way of killing my opponents (and a less reliable solution with less tutors. I don't want to be the banned Varina player in my playgroup).

[plaganegra]

I guess we should have started with what was on the chopping block lol. @yeti1069

All the things you said about the more expensive zombies is true. They are expensive for a reason. You could easily make your deck run more efficiently by lowering your curve though.

[yeti1069]

@pokken how are you closing out most games? Combo? Recurring Gary?

Moxes are better than Signets and Talismans? Who knew? I think it's a fundamental difference between what you're doing with your deck and what I, and some of the others here, have been doing: fewer tutors, less/no emphasis on combo, few/no non-zombies.

I find Chrome Mox a little hard to swallow here with how difficult it can be to keep cards in hand. If you're playing a bunch of underwhelming low curve zombies that don't individually hold much value, I could see that, I guess.

[toctheyounger]

Thinking on the speed of the deck, I had that thought a week or so ago of 'how quick could I go off' at the fastest and came up with turn 3. With my current list it would mean a hand with very specific cards and it would probably take all of them. But its possible!

At any rate I think the list in terms of aggro is somewhat limited purely because Varina is your most reliable way of ending the game outside of just going infinite involves looting with Varina, and that can only happen so fast.

All that said I feel like the vibe pokken is going for is somewhere between competitive Edgar Markov weenies and a reanimator list. For myself, there's a definite point past which I won't keep up purely for lack of money cards. Despite that I think with what we have available now its worth aiming for some level of efficiency in curve and play lines anyway. This commander can be pretty efficient and streamlined and works best when built that way.

[pokken]

@pokken how are you closing out most games? Combo? Recurring Gary?

Moxes are better than Signets and Talismans? Who knew? I think it's a fundamental difference between what you're doing with your deck and what I, and some of the others here, have been doing: fewer tutors, less/no emphasis on combo, few/no non-zombies.

I find Chrome Mox a little hard to swallow here with how difficult it can be to keep cards in hand. If you're playing a bunch of underwhelming low curve zombies that don't individually hold much value, I could see that, I guess.

I've had a mix of:
* beat down and aristocrat drains + recursion spells
* Gravecrawler combo
* Gray Merchant of Asphodel loops

So far beat down/artisto drains have been the most common, it's pretty interesting how much pressure is applied.

--

If you're using fewer tutors/low combo, you're still better off playing Hour of Revelation and Night's Whisper and Ponder type stuff vs. rocks to fill out your curve. Just my opinion, of course, and Arcane Signet is fairly defensible in any deck for the fixing I guess, but I would not personally want to be on it when there're so many good 2 cmc zombies. Like, what game is it where playing Arcane Signet on 2 is better than 2 drop zombie? At any stage in the game?

(I will note I also only run 3 non-land tutors and no fast mana - intuition, demonic tutor, and mystical tutor; no vampiric or enlightened. I also am down to only one non-zombie

--

Well while it's "obvious" that moxen are better than signets I think it's evident from a lot of deck construction that people think 2 cmc rocks are a replacement for moxen when they do not really do the same thing in Varina because of her board state dependence. Moxen being mana positive makes them strongly synergistic with Varina who can generate a crapload of velocity and card advantage to counteract their negatives, vs. signets which are actively non-synergistic. You aren't casting moxen instead of zombies.

I think any varina deck should be playing Chrome Mox over Azorius Signet 100%. There is a lot of cruft we can afford to lose to start curving a 2 drop into a 3 drop into Varina. Cards are not that hard to come by. Now, the card is expensive for sure, and budget is a thing, but the difference is huge.

YMMV...I'm playing neither and doing fine.

Thinking on the speed of the deck, I had that thought a week or so ago of 'how quick could I go off' at the fastest and came up with turn 3. With my current list it would mean a hand with very specific cards and it would probably take all of them. But its possible!

At any rate I think the list in terms of aggro is somewhat limited purely because Varina is your most reliable way of ending the game outside of just going infinite involves looting with Varina, and that can only happen so fast.

All that said I feel like the vibe pokken is going for is somewhere between competitive Edgar Markov weenies and a reanimator list. For myself, there's a definite point past which I won't keep up purely for lack of money cards. Despite that I think with what we have available now its worth aiming for some level of efficiency in curve and play lines anyway. This commander can be pretty efficient and streamlined and works best when built that way.

My deck is so weird to play - it usually plays out the first turns like an edgar deck and but it has this savage endgame because of varina creating all that velocity. It reminds me a lot of the Rally the Ancestors standard deck when Nantuko Husk was legal with all those token making eldrazi

I'm steering clear of most of the high dollar stuff myself tbh; other than the manabase and Intuition it's a rather cheap deck (aside from the spiking zombies:). The implication of "if optimally constructed I think you'd play Mox Diamond" is not to say that that's a must or anything. This isn't really about competition/power level as it is about sequencing.

I bolded the key part here to agree +1000% - there's this hard to describe concept of "smoothness" that I always think about when building decks now. My buddy Adrian is the master of smooth deck constructions; his decks do something on every turn all the time and always seem to be in every game, even if he's not winning. And that's how I like to make decks. They just...flow

[yeti1069]

Well, just got in a solid game against Lathril, Blade of the Elves , Grenzo, Dungeon Warden , and Yarok, the Desecrated.

Going 2nd, kept a slow hand of Sol Ring, Land Tax, Crypt of Agadeem, Apprentice Necromancer and some other lands. Everyone had said they were playing pretty moderate decks, and Grenzo was $50 budget, so I figured a slow hand should be okay.

Elves came out fast, and made me sacrifice my Necromancer on turn 3. Land Tax did its thing, pulling lands out, ensured I hit my colors, and filled me enough that I discarded Wonder and a basic the turn I played Varina with no zombies on board, but 2 mana open. Lathril was being kind of aggressive, but didn't build much of a board yet besides Tyvar Kell. Yarok was draining everyone with land drops, and Grenzo was going very slowly, but managed to get down Syr Konrad, the Grim. I activated Varina to make a zombie token at EOT.

Swung with Varina and the token, knocking out Tyvar, and drew some zombies with Rooftop Storm in hand. Played Rooftop after combat and dropped Silversmote Ghoul, Carrion Feeder, and Death Baron. Yarok ended up playing an ETB creature that got rid of my enchantments and Sol Ring, as well as Lathril's Skullclamp and Grenzo's only mana rock. On my turn, swung with the team at Yarok to put some pressure on and discarded 5 lands. Post combat, played Shambling Ghast, then Empty the Laboratory for X = 3, sacrificing the Ghast, Silversmote, and the token. Hit Mikaeus, the Unhallowed, Vengeful Dead, and Fleshbag Marauder. Double Fleshy removed Grenzo's board, all of Yarok's except the commander, and made an impact of sorts on Lathril. Between my attack, Grenzo's Konrad, and my Vengeful Dead that showed up, Lathril and Yarok were in the mid-teens, while Grenzo and I were at about 30 life.

Grenzo destroyed Mikaeus, Yarok tried building back up a bit, gaining some life and drawing cards, and Lathril kind of dithered, poking Grenzo as the only open target to make elves. On my turn, I topdecked Zombie Apocalypse, then played the Diregraf Captain I had drawn last turn to buff the team, and swung out to chip into life totals and to dump my zombies in hand. After combat, I made a mistake and activated Crypt of Agadeem before I was ready to use it (only relevant because it meant I couldn't have played Tombstone Stairwell after all the draining that will follow, but the game was over anyway, so it didn't matter), making 8 mana. Sacrificed everything except Carrion Feeder and the two draining zombies. Brought everything back with Apocalypse, then sacrificed everything I could twice thanks to Mikaeus to drain everyone out. If I had sacrificed first, I would have had 3 or 4 more mana off of the Crypt. Also made another mistake with the sequencing: Rot Hulk was one of the zombies that got reanimated, and I didn't think to sac 3 other zombies twice, then Rot Hulk before Lathril and Yarok died, so by the time I got to it, I was only returning one zombie. It ended up not mattering, but killing Grenzo this turn was a close thing.

Take aways:
--Thinking I may not end up cutting Fleshbag Marauder after it put in so much work this game.
--Wonder was...wonderful!
--Empty the Laboratory was fantastic! I sacrificed two zombies I didn't care about, and one that recurred itself, and got 3 super-solid ones, which lead to winning the game.
--Too many people ignore the value of Crypt of Agadeem.
--Having a sac outlet is so important, I may have to try to get Nantuko Husk in here.
--No clue how I'm going to fit all the cards I want to add from Crimson Vow.

[yeti1069]

I think I definitely want to find a way to work in Crucible of Worlds. I don't love discarding my next land drop in the hopes of drawing another land, and this addresses that problem perfectly.

As for mana rocks vs zombies or cantrips... I still feel like the rocks help early, and later I'm discarding them to Varina most of the time anyway. Certainly, they've helped immensely at ensuring I have the colors I need, let alone ramping into the top end of the deck. Arcane Signet and the Talismans are best, since they can sequence into 1-drops on turn 2.

[toctheyounger]

My deck is so weird to play - it usually plays out the first turns like an edgar deck and but it has this savage endgame because of varina creating all that velocity. It reminds me a lot of the Rally the Ancestors standard deck when Nantuko Husk was legal with all those token making eldrazi

I'm steering clear of most of the high dollar stuff myself tbh; other than the manabase and Intuition it's a rather cheap deck (aside from the spiking zombies:). The implication of "if optimally constructed I think you'd play Mox Diamond" is not to say that that's a must or anything. This isn't really about competition/power level as it is about sequencing.

I bolded the key part here to agree +1000% - there's this hard to describe concept of "smoothness" that I always think about when building decks now. My buddy Adrian is the master of smooth deck constructions; his decks do something on every turn all the time and always seem to be in every game, even if he's not winning. And that's how I like to make decks. They just...flow

I aim for the same myself where I can, and I think Varina gives a unique opportunity whereby she has that potential for acceleration like Edgar, but she can still keep your card choices churning over steadily, if not quite quickly. It means if you play your cards right you can hit that groove that you're talking about from quite an early stage in the game. I've seen it myself before where from an early start the deck just builds momentum and there's not a lot that can stop it from winning on one axis or another.

Again thats not to say extremely low curve is the official way to go. I think with some of the options available to us now post innistrad 3 there are now ample archetypes available that we've got available and thats a really great place to be. I kinda feel sorry for vampire fans this spoiler season cause they definitely dipped out by comparison.

I have to ask, how has Cabal coffers been for you? I'm always a little leery of playing it in a deck that struggles for ramp or doesn't have ways to untap it, so I've got my copy elsewhere at the minute.

Presumably Crucible of Worlds is present to take advantage of fetches predominantly? I gotta admit besides that I'm not seeing it here tbh. So long as I can swing i never miss a land drop so I don't really see the need for it outside of that. Thats something I bake into my sequencing thiugh, I guess if there's no need to keep it in mind it could be beneficial to be more bold in dropping lands.

@yeti1069 how often has crypt of agadeem worked out for you? It's another land im hesitant with purely for entering tapped. It could be very good here though given the graveyard interactions we have.

[pokken]

Crucible is pure gasoline - dumping your lands from varina then playing them and also synergistic with field of the dead. Allows for intuition packages of lands when reclamation is gone too.

Coffers likewise great. It's providing endgame mana. I have so many swamps that getting it to neutral is easy but finding urborg also not super difficult. Part of this is that I play some extra land tutors. I wouldn't run it without wayfarer and map.

Wayfarer is just such absolute power in a deck with lots of strong lands and no regular ability to ramp lands. I tutored for grotto nykthos coffers urborg and tower in one game before it dies. Which is dumb but it just gets let go with regularity for me. And if not I paid W. It's my only nonzombie.

Re: curve

I think it's very defensible to play a little more ramp or control and a lot more expensive zombies. Cutting say the bad 1 and 2 drops for a mix of control spells, sweepers and bombs makes perfect sense to me.

In fact that's basically what your deck is lol I shaved interaction, bomb creatures and mana rocks for cheap dudes. And some aristocrats stuff for anthems. I started with yours and wizardmns decks in front of me.

[Reya]

I think it's very defensible to play a little more ramp or control and a lot more expensive zombies. Cutting say the bad 1 and 2 drops for a mix of control spells, sweepers and bombs makes perfect sense to me.

In fact that's basically what your deck is lol I shaved interaction, bomb creatures and mana rocks for cheap dudes. And some aristocrats stuff for anthems. I started with yours and wizardmns decks in front of me.

This is exactly what I want to do right now. Yesterday I convinced myself to go with Moxes, Crucible and stuff for acceleration/synergy but I want to keep playing a little more control list with cards like:

Necroduality
Teferi's Ageless Insight (I want to keep only one doubling draw effect)
Rhystic Study (not a huge fan of this to be honest. It's quite boring to spam the game with "DO YOU PAY 1 ????")
Anguished Unmaking
Generous Gift
Swords to plowshare
Wilhelt, the rot cleaver

Those cards make a slower version of the deck and "control" a little bit more the game. I still don't know if it's my optimal build but it should make a decent mixt between "competitive" and "friendly".

Another question to everyone: what are your thoughts about Plumb the Forbidden ? Do you often keep it until someone wipes the board ? Do you often cast it pro-actively to find gas ?

[yeti1069]

@yeti1069 how often has crypt of agadeem worked out for you? It's another land im hesitant with purely for entering tapped. It could be very good here though given the graveyard interactions we have.

There aren't many ETBT lands in the deck, so having this has only very rarely impacted tempo, and I'd say just about every game that I've played it, I've had at least one turn where I'm tapping it for 5+ mana, and I've had several games where it makes a TON of mana. It's allowed me to cast two mass reanimates in one turn, dump my whole hand, and surprised one table by giving me mana for Cyclonic Rift with only 2 untapped lands and a Sol Ring available.

I see it as lower risk than Cabal Coffers, with sometimes higher reward since the deck can't ramp out lands, but can fill the yard with creatures.

[pokken]

what are your thoughts about Plumb the Forbidden ?

Have not cast it yet but I would definitely love to have had it multiple times. This deck forces people to board wipe a lot, and it protects us from exiling/tucking boardwipes in a really nice way. Any way to instantly protect us from Merciless Eviction is aces in my book. I would play probably 4 copies of it if I could

[plaganegra]

@yeti1069 how often has crypt of agadeem worked out for you? It's another land im hesitant with purely for entering tapped. It could be very good here though given the graveyard interactions we have.

There aren't many ETBT lands in the deck, so having this has only very rarely impacted tempo, and I'd say just about every game that I've played it, I've had at least one turn where I'm tapping it for 5+ mana, and I've had several games where it makes a TON of mana. It's allowed me to cast two mass reanimates in one turn, dump my whole hand, and surprised one table by giving me mana for Cyclonic Rift with only 2 untapped lands and a Sol Ring available.

I see it as lower risk than Cabal Coffers, with sometimes higher reward since the deck can't ramp out lands, but can fill the yard with creatures.

This is also my experience with Crypt of Agadeem. It makes huge endgame turns easy to pull off with minimal setup - all you have to do is play your deck and it does its thing automagically.

Cabal Coffers is a card I still would not run in the deck unless, like @pokken you plan to aggressively tutor/set up the combo with urborg. Unless you are doing that, it might not even tap for "mana" at all until coincidentally you become mana-neutral with it later in the game lol

[plaganegra]

Well while it's "obvious" that moxen are better than signets I think it's evident from a lot of deck construction that people think 2 cmc rocks are a replacement for moxen when they do not really do the same thing in Varina because of her board state dependence. Moxen being mana positive makes them strongly synergistic with Varina who can generate a crapload of velocity and card advantage to counteract their negatives, vs. signets which are actively non-synergistic. You aren't casting moxen instead of zombies.

I think any varina deck should be playing Chrome Mox over Azorius Signet 100%. There is a lot of cruft we can afford to lose to start curving a 2 drop into a 3 drop into Varina. Cards are not that hard to come by. Now, the card is expensive for sure, and budget is a thing, but the difference is huge.

YMMV...I'm playing neither and doing fine.

I am interested in your thoughts on this topic and have read all of the content you have put into the thread recently. What I want to know is how you think the negative card advantage affects the game from moxen like chrome mox or mox diamond (exiling/discarding another card from your hand) since generally with Varina we want to have as many cards in hand to select what we are discarding to her cycling ability. This is the primary reason I have not used these sorts of fast mana rocks in the deck.

To sum up, is this the TLDR of what you are saying?

• signets and other 2cmc rocks are bad because you have to use resources on T2 to cast them instead of a zombie on curve
• replace signets with free fast mana and more lands to ensure land drops happen every single turn regardless of varina.
• cantrips can also be used instead of mana rocks. (which still confuses me a little tbh)

What is the purpose of using tithe exactly? To me this is just a mana fixing tutor spell, that will rarely get you more than one land. Along the same lines - Weathered Wayfarer? Do you just always use the ability before you drop your land for turn? Aren't both cards "anti-synergistic" with Varina in a similar way to the 2cmc rocks? Using slots and resources to do things that are not *swinging with zombies on curve* - especially since neither card actually ramps you at all.

I bolded the key part here to agree +1000% - there's this hard to describe concept of "smoothness" that I always think about when building decks now. My buddy Adrian is the master of smooth deck constructions; his decks do something on every turn all the time and always seem to be in every game, even if he's not winning. And that's how I like to make decks. They just...flow

This has been a huge focus of mine - trying to capitalize as much as possible on synergistic value plays. So far the deck runs best for me when you curve out with zombies and play Varina and get the cycling going as quickly as possible. So I am really picking up what you are putting down. I appreciate your creative thinking about the deck.