Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

[blinx28]

Totally right—-great call and prob a good reason to grab one once it drops in price a bit

[toctheyounger]

Yeah, I think it's worth considering. Instant speed mass reanimation is pretty awesome, even if it's a once off. Could be a crazy good interaction with the aforementioned Morality Shift. Like, that would end the game super quick.

That being said, I bet he gets stronger from the command zone than in the 99. Being able to repeat that ability at your whim is pretty nuts.

[Supersprite]

Anyone considered psychosis crawler? Turns milling into a machinegun

Also i dropped zombie master and added glory. Swampwalk is cool but the master isnt a real lord because he dont give the buff.
2W: all your creatures gain protection from a color of your choice... why even bother with wonder this does so much more! Its like a enchantment that sits in the yard ready for a massive strike or for some protection of the zombies!
I tried both windfall and flux, flux is far better because you can keep the right stuff and cycle trash. Its a varina teigger that doesnt need varina sort of. So good or bad it belongs here.

I took the phyrexian altar out for a ashnods altar. I never understood it but ashnods altar is cool with varina sac trigger sac trigger etc. Can help end the game.
I didnt like the phyrexian altar, its a combo, wich is a very boring win, and without the combo zombie i really never casted it but preffered building zombie armies for varina.

[toctheyounger]

Anyone considered psychosis crawler? Turns milling into a machinegun

Also i dropped zombie master and added glory. Swampwalk is cool but the master isnt a real lord because he dont give the buff.
2W: all your creatures gain protection from a color of your choice... why even bother with wonder this does so much more! Its like a enchantment that sits in the yard ready for a massive strike or for some protection of the zombies!
I tried both windfall and flux, flux is far better because you can keep the right stuff and cycle trash. Its a varina teigger that doesnt need varina sort of. So good or bad it belongs here.

I took the phyrexian altar out for a ashnods altar. I never understood it but ashnods altar is cool with varina sac trigger sac trigger etc. Can help end the game.
I didnt like the phyrexian altar, its a combo, wich is a very boring win, and without the combo zombie i really never casted it but preffered building zombie armies for varina.

I've considered it, but ultimately decided against it. In my experience you really need to lean into heavy draw and have a constantly large hand size to make this worthwhile.

Glory seems a reasonable addition. Makes combat favourable and makes our stuff hard to D,E,B or T. I guess there's two places Zombie Master is preferable - its evasion doesn't cost, and it can help our zombies survive a board wipe. Pros and cons on either side to my mind.

Pleased to hear this feedback about Flux. It's an underplayed card, and I feel the same way about Windfall. Did you ever manage to get any playtesting in with Planar Birth?

As an aside, new spoilers coming from Eldraine - I doubt we will see a TON of value for Varina, but still - Foulmire Knight....isn't bad. One drop rattlesnake that you can otherwise use as a one time Phyrexian Arena is sort of cool. As well as being able to play it as a creature from exile following the effect. Not bad for value to my mind.

[Supersprite]

Well thats 1,2, the 3rd zombie knight ill be running

Planar birth is sort of situational and doesnt help progress to victory imo

This is my current list:
http://www.nedermagic.nl/nm-deckviewer/ ... _id=144881

Missing kindred discovery for monetary reasons.

Retribution of the meek... i almost always rather just have a toxic deluge

[Supersprite]

O and i figured countersquall is a better negate for a mostly black deck...

[toctheyounger]

Yep, I'll be looking forward to further spoilers - not holding out a ton of hope for more zombie goodness, but Esper does seem to be a thing in Eldraine so we could get some cool tech regardless.

Good to hear back about Planar Birth. Disappointing but unsurprising that it's a little situational.

Countersquall seems reasonable considering the black concentration here. I'm not a huge fan of Negate variants, I definitely prefer a non-conditional counterspell, but it could be decent here.

[toctheyounger]

So, I made the decision a couple weeks ago to apply to make this thread a primer - you guys are pretty vocal, and in case you're not aware this is at present the second most viewed decklist on Nexus. Given the input from you all, the love I have for this list, and all of the brewing and inclusion discussion we've had, I figure we all deserve for it to be official.

I've made a ton of formatting changes to the initial post, so let me know if there's any quirks you guys spot that need tweaking. The committee will work with me to fine tune it and make it nice and pretty too.

[yeti1069]

That's cool news!

Some thoughts on some suggestions I saw above.

I can see Glory being useful here and there, but I find that I rarely can afford to leave even 1 or 2 mana open for a counterspell, let alone 3 up for wipe protection (doesn't help vs WoG variants), and while it could be useful to give us an unimpeded attack, I typically want to hold mana back for after I loot with Varina. If it's an alpha strike, that's another story. That said, Zombie Master also comes with regeneration, so the 3 mana you would hold up for Glory can still be used with ZM to save a few guys, except it can save them from more board wipes that destroy, but allow for regen, as well as almost all the same wipes that use damage. Still, the way I play the deck is to not care too much about my zombies dying, because we have a few mass reanimate effects. So, attack the weak player, or force a stronger one into hard blocking decisions. Continue to apply pressure, fill yard, reanimate everything.

If you're facing a lot of grave hate, which the deck is already a little soft to, Glory looks worse.

I'd rather run Negate over Countersquall, but I'd rather than some more universal answers like Arcane Denial or Delay. Less colored mana, the easier it is to leave mana up. I'm running those 2 counters along with Swan Song. If I were going to run something else, I'd consider something that hits triggered abilities to blank Bojuka Bog.

Just my thoughts.

[Kvothe]

I agree 100% with everything yeti said.

I also like the 1 drop Zombie Knight, it's one more body to trigger Varina with a small upside. It also favors Haakon, if you are pondering him.

Flux is cool, but the fact that it let's the opponents sculpt their hand is a problem. Windfall at least disrupts them and can net you CA.

I really like Phyrexian Altar, more than Ashnod's. I usually win with mass reanimate spell with Bontu/Sidisi in the grave fetching the second mass reanimate and it really helps that plan. The colored mana is very good.
The fact that it enables a combo doesn't feel like a reason to not run it to me, specially since most people are avoiding tutors.

[boer0829]

So, I made the decision a couple weeks ago to apply to make this thread a primer - you guys are pretty vocal, and in case you're not aware this is at present the second most viewed decklist on Nexus. Given the input from you all, the love I have for this list, and all of the brewing and inclusion discussion we've had, I figure we all deserve for it to be official.

Nice! Keep up the good work!

Glory I almost never have the 3 mana to spare. Can see the advantages though.
Flux Don't know... seems alright. I'd rather play Windfall cause it nets you cards when you almost run empty. Maybe something like distant melody is also worth considering. Or some draw X spell like Stroke of Genius or Pull from Tomorrow, combined with Ashnod's Altar or another manasink it could give us a sh**load on cards. Maybe somehting like Bident of Thassa combined with some mass evasion like Filth or Wonder could work.

[yeti1069]

I've liked have Jet Medallion in my list, as I'm running maybe 10-15 cards that it doesn't affect (all colored mana, mono-blue, white, or artifact). Early on its basically a colorless mana rock, but it can lead to some big turns, working as a Sol Ring or better.

What do you think?

[Supersprite]

I've liked have Jet Medallion in my list, as I'm running maybe 10-15 cards that it doesn't affect (all colored mana, mono-blue, white, or artifact). Early on its basically a colorless mana rock, but it can lead to some big turns, working as a Sol Ring or better.

What do you think?

Jet medallion is i think not for this deck, more fore comboesque things. Rather have a rock thats makes every color?

Since i joked about the knight sub theme thats #evolving with 3 must play zombie knights, why not add haakon, stromgald scour? 3 mana recurabble so easy tossible zombie that may recur one of the other kbights as a bonus?

Someone tried oversold cemetery? Could give some nice effects with etb triggers.

[Kvothe]

I don't really like rocks that cost mana in this deck as in the early turns I rather cast bodies to have the maximum amount of triggers from Varina. Besides that, many creatures cost only colored mana and wouldn't be discounted.

I've been considering Haakon for a while, In addition to Corpse Knight, Midnight Reaper and the new guy, Stromgald Crusader could also be a viable early body.

[Supersprite]

Come to think about all those zombies in the yard; crypt of agadeem is a sweet black mana land. Belongs here, even flavourwise!

[toctheyounger]

Jet Medallion - With the soon to be released Arcane Signet, frankly I think this is pretty much redundant. I'd certainly prefer to play signets and talismans in my build - that's because it's not necessarily about how many black cards we run, it's about how many symbols we have, and we have a lot. The medallion will never help you pay the entire cost of any of our creatures, where a signet, talisman or Eldraine signet definitely can.

Haakon, Stromgald's Scourge - I think it's worthy of consideration, although I'd like to see a few more feasible targets before I call it a lock. It's worth acknowledging, though, that Haakon does nothing on his own and is more difficult to cast than any of our other creatures. To me, the pros outweigh the cons presently.

Crypt of Agadeem - Could be reasonable, I'd say. It's slow (ETB tapped), and it's conditional on your looting capabilities, but unlike Cabal Coffers it doesn't ever do nothing.

Phyrexian Altar - Like, I don't combo, so there's no need for me to run it. Ashnod's Altar is fine and helps me ramp into the higher end of the curve a little, so that works fine for me. Ultimately, I'd almost cut either for another free zombie sac outlet a la Carrion Feeder, but there's nothing low enough to the ground (I know there's Grimgrin, Corpse-Born but he's at 5, so...nah). All this being said it's a strong enough include to justify a spot if you feel you need the colour fixing or want to loop reanimation. I haven't felt the need personally.

---

Small update:

In:
Corpse Harvester
Phyrexian Delver

Out:
Phyrexian Arena
Havengul Lich

I finally tracked down a Harvester! Delver I'm trying out as a way to get free reanimation as opposed to tapping heavy mana for Havengul - the life loss I can manage, and Apprentice Necromancer has been kinda cool - had it out with Mike the other day - sacrificed to bring Sidisi, Undead Vizier, hit undying, did it all again - for a 2-drop it was decent value. So yeah, more of the same could be good. Phyrexian Arena I'm loathe to lose because of it's general great value, but a higher concentration of zombies is a better thing.

As an aside, I'm thinking more heavily about God-Eternal Oketra. I had a great game with it over the weekend - had it out with Carrion Feeder and Gravecrawler. Frankly, it got a bit stupendous. I didn't spam it heavily, but I had every opportunity to make an enormous vigilant horde of zombies, and I had Eldrazi Monument in hand, so needless to say I won with ease.

[RedCheese]

Zombie Oketra is great, my favourite Zombie God.

I took Corpse Harvester out of my list, dunno if it was the best thing to do. So many 5 converted mana cost cards made me took it out. He's probably better then Grimgrin, but im biased because Grimgrin is so cool so my bias is preventing from making the msot logical decision XD.

I don't know about Phyrexian Delver, like i said, its clogegd the 5 mana cost is so i never bothered with it.

My list doesn't have Phyrexian arena either, i think the deck's drawing power is fine without it in my opinion. Havengull Lich is another 5 mana cost creature and its too slow to use.

Need to post my list some day to compare.

[toctheyounger]

Zombie Oketra is great, my favourite Zombie God.

I took Corpse Harvester out of my list, dunno if it was the best thing to do. So many 5 converted mana cost cards made me took it out. He's probably better then Grimgrin, but im biased because Grimgrin is so cool so my bias is preventing from making the msot logical decision XD.

I don't know about Phyrexian Delver, like i said, its clogegd the 5 mana cost is so i never bothered with it.

My list doesn't have Phyrexian arena either, i think the deck's drawing power is fine without it in my opinion. Havengull Lich is another 5 mana cost creature and its too slow to use.

Need to post my list some day to compare.

Grimgrin is one of my favourites. The foil is exquisite, and I'll probably never part with it. I don't feel like it fits well enough here though. Delver is just a value add to me. Adds to devotion for Gary for at least 2, and gives me some resilience. I haven't seen it come up yet, but if it's bad I still have the Lich.

Yeah, I didn't notice Arena's departure this weekend either. I managed a game where I dropped Tombstone Stairwell and Kindred Discovery at the same time. I was fully on track to win and ended up decking myself, so that was a lesson learned.

[yeti1069]

The comments about Medallion have me reconsidering its inclusion in my list.

I've had games where Havengul has done some WORK, even without Rooftop Storm (though I do run that). One thing I like about Varina is that you can cycle your dead cards away pretty easily.

I'm gearing up to try Oketra. I've just been hesitant about the ww cost.

Corpse Harvester: I had run it for a while, but felt like it was too slow at 5 mana, with a tap activation cost + another 2 mana. I had games where I activated it twice, and it was good, but more often it died before I got to use it, or it sat in my hand while I played out more relevant cards. I'd like to hear how it works out for you.

I had had Delver in mine list for a while, but dumped it for all the aforementioned reasons...although I am running Rot Hulk (which has been fantastic! and has had some great games alongside Havengul).

I like Phyrexian Altar, even outside the combo, for some big plays, like mass reanimating twice in a turn. The same argument against Jet Medallion can be applied to Ashnod's Altar: the deck is heavy on colored mana.

[toctheyounger]

I've had games where Havengul has done some WORK, even without Rooftop Storm (though I do run that). One thing I like about Varina is that you can cycle your dead cards away pretty easily.

See, I've never had it do anything for me - I've just never had the spare resource to throw at it, and I have The Scarab God for a similar effect at a reliable cost anyway.

I'm gearing up to try Oketra. I've just been hesitant about the ww cost.

I was too, and to be fair a lot of it is reflected glory from how obscene Gravecrawler can be with a free sac outlet. Nonetheless, if you run Rooftop Storm.....

Corpse Harvester: I had run it for a while, but felt like it was too slow at 5 mana, with a tap activation cost + another 2 mana. I had games where I activated it twice, and it was good, but more often it died before I got to use it, or it sat in my hand while I played out more relevant cards. I'd like to hear how it works out for you.

Yeah, I just think having some form of pseudo-ramp is worthwhile, and I have zero experience running it at present. It could well be underwhelming, but it could be reliable ramp too.

I had had Delver in mine list for a while, but dumped it for all the aforementioned reasons...although I am running Rot Hulk (which has been fantastic! and has had some great games alongside Havengul).

I don't think I've ever even seen a copy of Rot Hulk about, it's not easy to come by. Delver has done some good work for me in other lists in the past, so I could just be being hopeful, but I dunno. It could be cool. At the very least it gives us bare minimum for Gary.

I like Phyrexian Altar, even outside the combo, for some big plays, like mass reanimating twice in a turn. The same argument against Jet Medallion can be applied to Ashnod's Altar: the deck is heavy on colored mana.

Totally agree. Honestly, 9/10 games I have no issues with colour fixing, so either one is redundant. As I say, I'd be glad to drop both for the right piece on a creature, as I don't think either of them are crucial. Funnily enough, I don't think I've ever had Ashnod's come into play for me. Every time I've had it in hand, I've either already pretty much won or pretty much lost so there was no point in casting it.

[Supersprite]

And another zombie knight dropped:

https://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/thro ... rous-rider

Omg dat limited edition art! So heros downfall on a stick, id play it. Superfriend superannoying.

Still i pleed for crypt of agadeem. Its a swamp that etb tappedin the worst case. Mostly its just t: add bbb-bbbbb. Dont underastimate it! Its our cabal coffers

[RedCheese]

Targeted Removal that also serves Varina. Yeah ill try it aswell, tough the creature itself isn't that impressive. Also the part that when dies it goes to the bottom of the deck its anoying. Worth a try.....as a proxy because i have a feeling it will be expensive in this Standard enviroment.

[toctheyounger]

Yeah, it's a nice option to have, and we're not without ways to abuse it, although it does seem a little harder to use for us than it could be. The adventure mechanic is versatile enough for us to make some use of, although what really turns me off of this as an inclusion is the shuffle clause. I can get it back with Corpse Harvester or Sidisi, Undead Vizier so it's not a total loss, but still. I guess it has to have that clause to make the adventure mechanic abusable for us though, because reanimation wouldn't trigger it.

Crypt of Agadeem is in a similar place for me as Field of the Dead. It enters tapped and is going to have a variable impact on the game. It's more of a lock (to me) than Field because we can rely on it more, but it's going to vary widely. I'd definitely prefer Nykthos, but Crypt is still very much worth considering.

[blinx28]

Considering Phyrexian Arena to smooth my deck more....looking at the following swaps:

Anointed Procession: This was my initial pull since my build is now much more focused on tribe and not tokens....however i still have some very powerful makers in the deck (tombstone stairwell, grave titan, god-eternal oketra, the scarab god) that make it valuable, let alone Varina's activated ability when possible.

Plague Belcher: Realizing the drain effects here work way better on mass reanimation, the ETB drainers are serving me much better than the LTB ones. Since Diregraf Captain is also an anthem, this one's on the block.

Cemetary Reaper: Speaking on anthems, this deck is moving slowly away from combat wins (though combat is still very necessary for the deck to work), so i'm considering losing one of my 7 +1/+1 lords. Even though his ability is incidentally valuable, i'd much rather leave up mana for interaction and Varina. Thought maybe i'm wrong and Lord of the Accursed or Zombie Master are the right pulls.

Graveborn Muse: Draw for draw swap if I choose---this card has done major major work for me, as well as put my life total in danger. All in all I think it stays since deck smoothing is my overall goal, but worth a mention since it's very dependent on boardstate.

With the addition of Demonic Tutor a bit ago, many of these themes (anthems, drain, draw) all have an extra slot pending my situational needs, so really cool with any of them leaving. That being said, maybe a couple of them go and I reintroduce more interaction like Counterspell or Dovin's Veto to encourage a more controlling playstyle that will let me access Varina's trigger more often as well.

Decklist for continued reference, thanks in advance to this community for the collective brain power and advice!

[toctheyounger]

Considering Phyrexian Arena to smooth my deck more....looking at the following swaps:

Anointed Procession: This was my initial pull since my build is now much more focused on tribe and not tokens....however i still have some very powerful makers in the deck (tombstone stairwell, grave titan, god-eternal oketra, the scarab god) that make it valuable, let alone Varina's activated ability when possible.

Plague Belcher: Realizing the drain effects here work way better on mass reanimation, the ETB drainers are serving me much better than the LTB ones. Since Diregraf Captain is also an anthem, this one's on the block.

Cemetary Reaper: Speaking on anthems, this deck is moving slowly away from combat wins (though combat is still very necessary for the deck to work), so i'm considering losing one of my 7 +1/+1 lords. Even though his ability is incidentally valuable, i'd much rather leave up mana for interaction and Varina. Thought maybe i'm wrong and Lord of the Accursed or Zombie Master are the right pulls.

Graveborn Muse: Draw for draw swap if I choose---this card has done major major work for me, as well as put my life total in danger. All in all I think it stays since deck smoothing is my overall goal, but worth a mention since it's very dependent on boardstate.

With the addition of Demonic Tutor a bit ago, many of these themes (anthems, drain, draw) all have an extra slot pending my situational needs, so really cool with any of them leaving. That being said, maybe a couple of them go and I reintroduce more interaction like Counterspell or Dovin's Veto to encourage a more controlling playstyle that will let me access Varina's trigger more often as well.

Decklist for continued reference, thanks in advance to this community for the collective brain power and advice!

Arena is decent, but in all honesty I'm not sure if it's something I'd look at making any cuts for here. Your list looks pretty damn tidy, so I don't know how much it would add.

I have no experience with Anointed Procession, so I can't comment on it's efficacy. I don't really have a place for it in my list is all I can add.

Plague Belcher has been solid for me. In addition to being a well costed beater/bleeder, it comes with combat evasion. It's also the source of the only combo I'm aware of in my list; Mikaeus, the Unhallowed, this, Carrion Feeder/Ashnod's Altar, and any other zombie - Gravecrawler for example will bleed out the table. It's janky enough to justify leaving it be for myself.

Cemetery Reaper - To me it's the weakest of the lords. That being said the exile is of occasional value.

Graveborn Muse - It's been nothing but excellent value for me. I'd not consider losing it myself, it's draw value is undeniable.

If I had to pick from these it'd be reaper, or maybe Zombie Master. That being said, I haven't noticed the loss of Arena overly. I'd almost always prefer to have a creature, and I have plenty that do the same thing repeatedly. Cryptbreaker can do it, and can use itself immediately for the effect (no tap symbol means summoning sickness is not relevant apparently), Graveborn Muse as aforementioned, Undead Augur and Midnight Reaper have been seriously great too, and I guess with new options [card]Foulmire Knight does the same too. I'd probably say you're fine without the extra effect, to my mind. It's nice to have it unconditional, sure, but you also lose the possibility of attacking with it for a Varina trigger, which is something you're going to want to do anyway.

I dunno, I guess I see a for and against with Arena's inclusion, but yeah - I wouldn't sweat it myself. I'd be interested to hear from the other Varina players here though.