The MCC Discussion Thread

[Rithaniel]

@Rithaniel Can you confirm my entry passes the main challenge?

Yep, can confirm. It has an effect while its on the battlefield and also includes a way to remove itself from the battlefield, making it intended to be temporary. However, the effect can also have unlimited duration. Checks all the boxes.

Edit: Also, hey, page 50.

[Rithaniel]

@Henlock @MonoRedMage You guys have three hours left in the round. (Also, I'll put it out there that I'm willing to grant one more 24 hour extension, if you both feel the need for it.)

[Rithaniel]

Alright, my preliminary judgements are in. I might revise them before the end of the round, but I think I'm fairly confident with the evaluations I've given.

[slimytrout]

"Underworld Dirge" is a very generic name for a resurrection spell, and there isn't really any flavor connecting it with escape or attacking or mill.

I'm not going to quibble with your points about attacking or mill, but I think it's hard to argue that the underworld doesn't have to do with escape considering that the escape mechanic is literally referring to escaping from Theros's underworld and there are multiple cards that have/grant escape with the word "Underworld" in their name.

[haywire]

(1/3) Flavor - The name is pretty generic, and the effects don't really unify towards any super clear idea of "devotion," at least not that I can tell. The strongest thing here is the idea that "attacking alone" is represented in both effects, and that this can be construed as devotion to attacking with a single creature, but that's pretty weak, in my opinion.

Just to give context towards my thought process/ask a question for future: my goal here was to place this in the context of Bant, the original source for exalted, where it represented the ability to rise through the caste system via acts of honor and devotion. My thought process was sort of a perfected/enhanced version of the original keyword could exemplify the actual act of receiving a sigil and rising up, a burst of angelic power, but I unfortunately didn't feel like I had room on the card for flavor text, and I wasn't sure if I was allowed to say like "bant watermark" or add "note: this card comes from a set on Bant" as clarification. For future, are either of those things I'm allowed to say? Is giving context for the card acceptable, or does it have to be submitted alone?

[Rithaniel]

I'm not going to quibble with your points about attacking or mill, but I think it's hard to argue that the underworld doesn't have to do with escape considering that the escape mechanic is literally referring to escaping from Theros's underworld and there are multiple cards that have/grant escape with the word "Underworld" in their name.

A reasonable point. I still think that the underlying issue of it being too generic of a name is there, but you are correct that escape is tied to the idea of "underworld," in the same way that resurrection itself is tied to it. I'll edit things, but I'm not sure it changes the score.

Just to give context towards my thought process/ask a question for future: my goal here was to place this in the context of Bant, the original source for exalted, where it represented the ability to rise through the caste system via acts of honor and devotion. My thought process was sort of a perfected/enhanced version of the original keyword could exemplify the actual act of receiving a sigil and rising up, a burst of angelic power, but I unfortunately didn't feel like I had room on the card for flavor text, and I wasn't sure if I was allowed to say like "bant watermark" or add "note: this card comes from a set on Bant" as clarification. For future, are either of those things I'm allowed to say? Is giving context for the card acceptable, or does it have to be submitted alone?

So, my stance here is that you are right: You didn't have enough room for flavor text. But MCC cards are all about trade-offs. You could make a shorter mechanical effect to earn a couple of lines for flavor text, but then you might lose points in uniqueness or appeal. You might try to force the flavor text in, but then you would lose points for microtext in quality. You made a design choice to forego flavor text, and that made flavor weaker. Balancing all these factors is what makes a good MCC card tricky to make.

However, I would say that you wouldn't strictly need flavor text to make this more flavorful. Mechanics can convey flavor ideas. Names can convey flavor ideas. Card type can convey flavor ideas. If you had instead named the card something like "Devotion to Bant" or "Gift of Sigils," it might have garnered more flavor points from me, because those would more clearly indicate what you're going for, at least to me. Alternatively, if the mechanics had a single unified idea of putting exalted counters on things, then that might have evoked more of a flavor idea. There are lots of things you can do to try and weave flavor into your card, and I don't think you would strictly need the additional details of watermarks or notes or flavor text to make things come across clearly.

Also, worth mentioning is that I believe I'm one of the tougher judges when it comes to flavor scores.

[bravelion83]

I wasn't sure if I was allowed to say like "bant watermark" or add "note: this card comes from a set on Bant" as clarification. For future, are either of those things I'm allowed to say? Is giving context for the card acceptable, or does it have to be submitted alone?

I can say what is the intent behind the guidelines as their author. Quoting from page 11, section 5.3.6 with emphasis added:

Your submission post must include only your text card and the optional render. Nothing else can be included, unless explicitly required by the round challenges.

The watermark (if present) is a part of a physically printed Magic card, so it's supposed to be included in "your text card" and to be allowed even if the round challenges don't require it explicitly. What you cannot include in your submission post is anything that is NOT a part of a physically printed card. Examples are given in the very next sentence of the document, again with added emphasis:

That includes design notes, links, explanations of mechanics or lore, and anything else you might come up with.

So, to actually answer your question, according to the guidelines, you're allowed to say "Bant watermark", but you are NOT allowed to say "note: this card comes from a set on Bant" as that's more of an "explanation of mechanics or lore". If I were the month's host I would absolutely accept the former but NOT the latter. Please note that the host can (slightly) deviate from the guidelines in a month they are hosting, but if they do, they should specify it. If not specified, I would assume that the guidelines apply as they are. Hope this helps.

[Ink-Treader]

My judgments for April's MCC Round 2 are complete.

[void_nothing]

If you're interested in hosting the MCC in May, the month is still open - please let me know if you may want to organize next month's contest!

[Ink-Treader]

@Ink-Treader: The original wording was "until it dies, when it does...", but I wasn't sure. Would that have worked?

@Henlock I feel that still runs into the same issue that Mind Flayer has in this context. I would like to hear @Rithaniel 's thoughts on the matter

[Rithaniel]

Oh, yeah, I agree that this is a DQ, but it is still a gray area. Slimytrout asked about the specific case on the previous page of this discussion thread, and my reasoning there was that the card would need to not appeal to outside cards in order for the effect to end. Mind Flayer was brought up as an example, and I added clarifications to the post to try and make it clear. I'm sorry if they were easily missed, @Henlock. But yes, creatures don't generally go to the graveyard unless something else makes them go to the graveyard, so your card does indeed not fulfill the main challenge of the round, on account of how we are choosing to read "temporary."

[Subject16]

Subchallenge 1 -- Your card is also a noncreature permanent.

For the purposes of this subchallenge, would an MDFC/transforming card qualify?

[bravelion83]

Subchallenge 2 -- In order to satisfy this challenge, the card must be colorless and not use and colored mana symbols in its text.

@Rithaniel I believe there is a typo and the bolded word is supposed to be "any".

Related to the challenge, I suppose a card like Startled Awake // Persistent Nightmare would pass the main challenge if it said "exile" instead of "graveyard". Also, what about morphs? Adventures? Aftermath (the mechanic from Amonkhet)? Normal split cards?

[Ink-Treader]

I do have a question regarding the Main challenge that may prove useful: An activated ability that could be activated from the graveyard and from exile would fail, yes? It specifically must have an activated ability that can't be activated from the hand or graveyard?

[Rithaniel]

For the purposes of this subchallenge, would an MDFC/transforming card qualify?

Yes. The card, taken as a whole, would have two type lines. One can be instant or sorcery and the other can be some noncreature permanent type. (This is actually the solution I specifically had in mind)

@Rithaniel I believe there is a typo and the bolded word is supposed to be "any".

Related to the challenge, I suppose a card like Startled Awake // Persistent Nightmare would pass the main challenge if it said "exile" instead of "graveyard". Also, what about morphs? Adventures? Aftermath (the mechanic from Amonkhet)? Normal split cards?

Ah yes, thank you for the spell check.

Yes, your example of an exile-based Startled Awake // Persistent Nightmare would work. Morph isn't an activated ability (in either sense or casting it or turning it face-up - I just now had to look this up. Casting a morph creature is casting a spell that can't be countered and turning it face-up is a special action that doesn't use the stack). Adventure is similar to morph (casting an adventure and then a static ability while in exile, but adventure would allow you to satisfy the "is both a noncreature permanent and an instant/sorcery" aspect of the round). Split cards (and aftermath-split cards, as a subset) don't necessarily involve any activated abilities (and would be less likely to satisfy the first subchallenge, since both sides are generally instants and/or sorceries).

Also, in my research just now, I discovered that a spell which searches for instants/sorceries can't search for creatures with adventures, which seems like an unnecessary crime against things that search for instants/sorceries.

I do have a question regarding the Main challenge that may prove useful: An activated ability that could be activated from the graveyard and from exile would fail, yes? It specifically must have an activated ability that can't be activated from the hand or graveyard?

Yes, the ability needs to specifically exclude both the hand and the graveyard.

I will go through and add some clarifications to the thread.

[netn10]

As the month winds down, we're seeking a volunteer to host the MCC in May - please let me know if you're interested!

Hey, if it's still relevant and there's no one else to pick up the glove, I would love to host my first MCC ever please let me know as soon as possible.

[void_nothing]

As the month winds down, we're seeking a volunteer to host the MCC in May - please let me know if you're interested!

Hey, if it's still relevant and there's no one else to pick up the glove, I would love to host my first MCC ever please let me know as soon as possible.

I would be glad to have you host, and since it's your first time feel free to PM me to ask any questions you may have.

[bravelion83]

@Rithaniel Thanks for your answers. I have one more question:

Subchallenge 2 -- The card has no color identity.

Would using devoid count? It kinda feels like cheating to me to do this that way, but would it count?

@netn10 As author of the guidelines, I'm also there to help you in your first time as host should you need it, and you certainly know where to find me in that case. I'm also absolutely available and willing to judge if you feel you need an experienced judge to help you. I've mentored a number of judges throughout the years in their first time judging, and the host is also an automatic judge for the month so you will be a judge too and I honestly can't remember if it would be the first time you're judging in the MCC. Anyway, remember I'm there, ready and willing to help you in any way you need.

@void_nothing I think you can put me in as host for June already, and unless netn10 does it in May, it will be the MOM-themed month. I only have a vague idea of what to do at the moment, and I still have to figure out the exact challenges, but I have something like a whole month to figure that out and honestly I'd really like to do that. It's become kind of a tradition by now for me to do set-themed MCC months every three months (on the same month that I'm hosting the DCC by the way, but that's not a problem at all), and I have all the intention to keep doing it.

[Rithaniel]

Would using devoid count? It kinda feels like cheating to me to do this that way, but would it count?

Well, devoid only affects colors, and does not impact color identity at all. So, no, devoid would not allow a card to qualify for the second subchallenge.

For example, a card like Caves of Koilos is colorless, but has a color identity.

[bravelion83]

You're right, thank you. The reason why I was thinking about devoid was essentially a misunderstanding on my part about how the rules for devoid interact with determining color identity. We all know that the colors of the mana symbols in a card's mana cost are what gives a card its colors. The mana symbols themselves, what color they (not the card) are and the color(s) the card is are all different concepts and I was mixing them together. Color identity is defined by rule 903.4 (emphasis mine):

903.4. The Commander variant uses color identity to determine what cards can be in a deck with a certain commander. The color identity of a card is the color or colors of any mana symbols in that
card's mana cost or rules text, plus any colors defined by its characteristic-defining abilities (see rule 604.3) or color indicator (see rule 204).

I was thinking that since devoid is indeed a CDA (the underlined part) it would have applied here, but color identity does NOT check the card's colors, which is what is defined by devoid, but it goes directly to check the color of the symbols in the mana cost (the bolded part), which is NOT affected by devoid in any way. Ok, I know this is a highly technical reasoning, but I thank you very much for having spurred me to go check for myself and realize this. This is what I learned today. As I think is widely known by now, I'm a huge rules fan, so I'm very happy to correct a misunderstanding I had about the rules even and especially because it's so highly technical. I had already gone in a different direction for my card, one much closer to Startled Awake // Persistent Nightmare (which was the reason why I asked about that specific card), but thank you anyway.

[netn10]

@netn10 As author of the guidelines, I'm also there to help you in your first time as host should you need it, and you certainly know where to find me in that case. I'm also absolutely available and willing to judge if you feel you need an experienced judge to help you. I've mentored a number of judges throughout the years in their first time judging, and the host is also an automatic judge for the month so you will be a judge too and I honestly can't remember if it would be the first time you're judging in the MCC. Anyway, remember I'm there, ready and willing to help you in any way you need.

Thank you, I appreciate it. I've already started working on the challenges, and my only question (for now) is, when should I post the first MCC thread?

[bravelion83]

@netn10 As author of the guidelines, I'm also there to help you in your first time as host should you need it, and you certainly know where to find me in that case. I'm also absolutely available and willing to judge if you feel you need an experienced judge to help you. I've mentored a number of judges throughout the years in their first time judging, and the host is also an automatic judge for the month so you will be a judge too and I honestly can't remember if it would be the first time you're judging in the MCC. Anyway, remember I'm there, ready and willing to help you in any way you need.

Thank you, I appreciate it. I've already started working on the challenges, and my only question (for now) is, when should I post the first MCC thread?

@netn10 The first thread you should post is the judge signup thread, which should be posted a few days before the beginning of the month you're hosting, so right now it would be a perfect time to do it. You can look at past judge signup threads to see what it should look like, the important parts are the title (including the month and the words "judge signup thread" or similar), a sample card that you're supposed to design yourself according to your month's chosen theme and that should include several intentional mistakes in multiple areas of the rubric, and the rubric itself. That's what you should be focused on right now and what I would expect to see either later today or tomorrow. It will likely be pinned by void_nothing, but you don't need to think about that, just let void do it.

Then, exactly on May 1st you post the Round 1 thread. I suggest setting the design deadline on the 9th like in recent months, but that's not a requirement. By now you should have the challenges for Round 1 ready. Later rounds can either be planned beforehand (as I usually do) or prepared in between rounds while players are designing their cards. I suggest planning all challenges for all rounds as early as you can. If you need help about how to word specific challenges or anything like that, feel free to pm me if you don't want to spoil future rounds. One more reason for me to be a judge, so that you don't have to worry about spoiling future rounds to me as a player if you want to send me such a pm. One thing to remember for how to word challenges: be clear in establishing the bounds. There will ALWAYS be players trying to push the boundaries of the challenge. I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing, but that's what I've learned myself by experience, and that's the reason why my own clarifications spoilers tend to be quite long compared to other hosts. You should probably keep it in mind while wording the challenges and make the boundaries you intended for each challenge as hard to break as you can.

Remember to check very frequently every thread you post, you want to be there if any problems arise or any answers are needed. One thing I always do on my month is bookmarking and subscribing to every thread I make, to make sure I always see any new posts as notifications.

Also, if you have the time and will, read the whole guidelines document. It gives you a lot of info about all facets of the contest and should answer most questions you might have already by itself. Anyway, feel free to ask me any more questions you might have, either here or (maybe better especially if the question involves spoilers for players about the month theme or the challenges) via pm. I usually check the site multiple times a day, so whichever method you choose I should be able to see it in a timely enough manner.

[netn10]

@netn10 As author of the guidelines, I'm also there to help you in your first time as host should you need it, and you certainly know where to find me in that case. I'm also absolutely available and willing to judge if you feel you need an experienced judge to help you. I've mentored a number of judges throughout the years in their first time judging, and the host is also an automatic judge for the month so you will be a judge too and I honestly can't remember if it would be the first time you're judging in the MCC. Anyway, remember I'm there, ready and willing to help you in any way you need.

Thank you, I appreciate it. I've already started working on the challenges, and my only question (for now) is, when should I post the first MCC thread?

@netn10 The first thread you should post is the judge signup thread, which should be posted a few days before the beginning of the month you're hosting, so right now it would be a perfect time to do it. You can look at past judge signup threads to see what it should look like, the important parts are the title (including the month and the words "judge signup thread" or similar), a sample card that you're supposed to design yourself according to your month's chosen theme and that should include several intentional mistakes in multiple areas of the rubric, and the rubric itself. That's what you should be focused on right now and what I would expect to see either later today or tomorrow. It will likely be pinned by void_nothing, but you don't need to think about that, just let void do it.

Then, exactly on May 1st you post the Round 1 thread. I suggest setting the design deadline on the 9th like in recent months, but that's not a requirement. By now you should have the challenges for Round 1 ready. Later rounds can either be planned beforehand (as I usually do) or prepared in between rounds while players are designing their cards. I suggest planning all challenges for all rounds as early as you can. If you need help about how to word specific challenges or anything like that, feel free to pm me if you don't want to spoil future rounds. One more reason for me to be a judge, so that you don't have to worry about spoiling future rounds to me as a player if you want to send me such a pm. One thing to remember for how to word challenges: be clear in establishing the bounds. There will ALWAYS be players trying to push the boundaries of the challenge. I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing, but that's what I've learned myself by experience, and that's the reason why my own clarifications spoilers tend to be quite long compared to other hosts. You should probably keep it in mind while wording the challenges and make the boundaries you intended for each challenge as hard to break as you can.

Remember to check very frequently every thread you post, you want to be there if any problems arise or any answers are needed. One thing I always do on my month is bookmarking and subscribing to every thread I make, to make sure I always see any new posts as notifications.

Also, if you have the time and will, read the whole guidelines document. It gives you a lot of info about all facets of the contest and should answer most questions you might have already by itself. Anyway, feel free to ask me any more questions you might have, either here or (maybe better especially if the question involves spoilers for players about the month theme or the challenges) via pm. I usually check the site multiple times a day, so whichever method you choose I should be able to see it in a timely enough manner.

Thank you. I sent you a pm.
Additionally, I have a question: Since this is my first time judging, should I judge my own sample card?

[bravelion83]

should I judge my own sample card?

No, or at very least not publicly. I'll check your pm right now.

EDIT - I've replied to your pm with what you asked me and more. Please check that out asap.

[bravelion83]

A new judge is required to judge the sample card to be accepted by the host as a judge, and netn10 is a first-time host and judge at the same time. I had not foreseen this eventuality when writing the guidelines document, so we had nothing established about what to do in that case, also because it had never happened before as far as I know. I and netn10 went through the new judge process via pm with me acting as a fake host for the month: they sent me a sample judgment and I gave them feedback and accepted them as an MCC judge. They're free to post their sample judgments now if they want, possibly in the judge signup thread (which is where the exchange would have happened if it were a real acceptation of a new judge) and not here, anyway in spoiler tags are they (especially my own feedback) are quite long. I just wanted to make this public for the regularity of the contest. As I said, it had never happened before that we had the same person as a first-time host AND first-time judge as far as I can remember, either here or on Salvation. I came close to that myself, becoming a host on the very next month I started judging, but that happened in two consecutive months, not on the same month. This was a new case. That's the solution I came up with and that's also the reason why I had told them not to post their sample judgment publicly yet in my previous post. I wanted the process to be finished before it was public. Now it's finished, so they can post everything publicly if they want, including my own feedback (yes, I'm fine with the final line being public too even if it contains a piece of personal info about me, but nothing confidential EDIT - I'm not referring to my real name, even though I think that's also well known by now and I also have no problem with it being known, but to the one right before the "p.s."). Anyway, I wanted to be known that now I, who am not a moderator but the author of the guidelines and an experienced judge and host of this contest, recognize netn10 as a valid judge for this month and for the future. Any further acknowledgment is not in my own power.