Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

[yeti1069]

Warchief is functionally 2 lords in 1. If you're swinging much it's very powerful. It also takes Varina from a 6 turn clockto a 4 turn clock.

The cost reduction doesn't help early usually, but it does contribute. I've oft n seen the biggest benefit if I can ramp it out in turn 3, then drop Varina and a 2 mana zombie on 4.

4 mana for any of the effects individually wouldn't be good, but together on a zombie body it does a lot.

[Eburon]

Undead Warchief doesn't boost your opponents creatures whereas Coat of Arms does. Coat of Arms is detrimental if you face token decks (and it is useless by itself). Warchief is a cost reducer plus lord in 1 card. That is what makes it so strong. It is not just 1 ability, it is both abilities (and they both can have a big impact).

Re: Smothering Tithe. It is a great card, but without the ability for us to reliably power it out early, it just doesn't make the cut for me. I think we want to be more proactive at the time we can drop Tithe. I'd rather cast Varina personally.

[Falkenbach]

The +2 power is to relevant to cut him, if you swing with some zombie tokens the damage adds up quite fast this way.

I myself try not to run any EDHREC Salty list cards: Cyclonic Rift , Smothering Tithe ,Rhystic Study in my build. Nor do I run any Tutors excluding Sidisi, Undead Vizier (which is a slow tutor with her costing 5 mana). This way the deck stays unique and has alot more slots for zombies or other unique cards. Aldo i think the 3 first named cards powers up the deck.

[plaganegra]

My comparison to Coat of Arms is simply to show the cost of the buff part of Undead Warchief, not to imply that CoA should replace the lord. For 1 more mana you get a game ending amount of damage. Personally I don't want either in my deck at the moment, but definitely appreciate both cards for what they do

[toctheyounger]

I agree. Every time it has shined for me it was because of the buff and not the cost reduction. For one more mana you get coat of arms though…. Idk its in an awkward spot

I don't disagree myself. Even if it cost 1 less I'd be a lot happier with it, but as is I'm willing to look the other way.

As far as the cost reduction goes though, I feel like more would be redundant. There's actually not a lot of colorless in our creature list until you hit the top of the curve, and let's be honest, we're not tryna cast those for full cost anyway.

I've considered adding something like Vedalken Orrery or Leyline of Anticipation so to mass reanimate on an EOT, creating a pseudo haste effect, but it still forces us to take off essentially a turn.

So I could see Warchief getting cut, but with the consideration of Changeling Outcast I might keep it in slightly longer for now.

I don't know about this. Twilight's Call is tough enough for what it costs, and honestly, I think Vedalken Orrery is a bit of a trap anyway. Essentially you're taking a turn off so that you can sneak attack, maybe, sometimes. Leyline is slightly further up the rungs for being able to freecast it once out of every 14 games or so. That being said, I get it, and there's not much we can use to swing quickly in our colors. Up until recently Akroma's Memorial or a pair of Air Jordans was all we had. Now we've got Mogis's Marauder and Crashing Drawbridge. I don't know that either of them really need to be in here, but I'd probably take either one over Leyline or Orrery, purely because they both get wrapped up in most of our reanimation, they're cheaper, and they don't force you to alter your play lines like the flash enablers do.

The +2 power is to relevant to cut him, if you swing with some zombie tokens the damage adds up quite fast this way.

I myself try not to run any EDHREC Salty list cards: Cyclonic Rift , Smothering Tithe ,Rhystic Study in my build. Nor do I run any Tutors excluding Sidisi, Undead Vizier (which is a slow tutor with her costing 5 mana). This way the deck stays unique and has alot more slots for zombies or other unique cards. Aldo i think the 3 first named cards powers up the deck.

i actually think the deck could do just fine without Cyclonic Rift. I see no major reason it's crucial to this list. Instant speed is nice, but there's other sweepers that could do admirably well if for these or other reasons you don't want it in here. We're in the best colours for wipes. and we're pretty spoilt for options really. I still think Tragic Arrogance could be amazing here, though I haven't a spare copy to try it out.

The only one of these three I think is relatively irreplaceable is Rhystic Study, and unfortunately it's probably the saltiest of the lot. That being said I think part of that is how its played. No one wants to have someone interrupting literally everything with 'doyapaytheone?' So I usually say 'let me know if you DO, otherwise I'll just keep an eye on things and draw as triggers come up'

[Eburon]

I know it may seem low impact, but in my experiences in limited, Ghoulish Procession is pretty solid. Thoughts?

[yeti1069]

I know it may seem low impact, but in my experiences in limited, Ghoulish Procession is pretty solid. Thoughts?

It's been decent for me in Historic Brawl and draft on Arena. I just don't know how I feel about it in this deck. We aren't running a lot of sac outlets, and not a lot of non-exile removal. I feel like for it to be solid, I'd want to see it triggering twice per turn cycle, but maybe that's greedy?

[plaganegra]

I know it may seem low impact, but in my experiences in limited, Ghoulish Procession is pretty solid. Thoughts?

It's been decent for me in Historic Brawl and draft on Arena. I just don't know how I feel about it in this deck. We aren't running a lot of sac outlets, and not a lot of non-exile removal. I feel like for it to be solid, I'd want to see it triggering twice per turn cycle, but maybe that's greedy?

Compare to Bitterblossom. If you could get at least 1 per turn cycle I think it is definitely playable. The mana investment is so low it doesnt need to do backflips. If either of you try it please tell us how it goes!

[yeti1069]

I know it may seem low impact, but in my experiences in limited, Ghoulish Procession is pretty solid. Thoughts?

It's been decent for me in Historic Brawl and draft on Arena. I just don't know how I feel about it in this deck. We aren't running a lot of sac outlets, and not a lot of non-exile removal. I feel like for it to be solid, I'd want to see it triggering twice per turn cycle, but maybe that's greedy?

Compare to Bitterblossom. If you could get at least 1 per turn cycle I think it is definitely playable. The mana investment is so low it doesnt need to do backflips. If either of you try it please tell us how it goes!

Bitterblossom makes flying tokens that can block and can attack more than once. I'm not sure that making 1 decayed zombie per turn cycle warrants inclusion, and this isn't even guaranteed to do that. It's certainly possible to play this and have it do nothing for a couple of turns, which is my biggest concern.

[toctheyounger]

It's been decent for me in Historic Brawl and draft on Arena. I just don't know how I feel about it in this deck. We aren't running a lot of sac outlets, and not a lot of non-exile removal. I feel like for it to be solid, I'd want to see it triggering twice per turn cycle, but maybe that's greedy?

Compare to Bitterblossom. If you could get at least 1 per turn cycle I think it is definitely playable. The mana investment is so low it doesnt need to do backflips. If either of you try it please tell us how it goes!

Bitterblossom makes flying tokens that can block and can attack more than once. I'm not sure that making 1 decayed zombie per turn cycle warrants inclusion, and this isn't even guaranteed to do that. It's certainly possible to play this and have it do nothing for a couple of turns, which is my biggest concern.

Agreed, although I think the other problem with it lies in the fact that decayed zombies are considerably less useful, too. You sacrifice stability for another body on the field, but its one that can't block and dies to attacking, too. Its at best a pretty fragile advantage and really only sees benefit from having aristocrats in play. Which is fine. We can manage that, but its still pushing the limits of what synergy we have for a seemingly minimal advantage. 1 ping per turn in a turn cycle isn't substantial in this format.

[plaganegra]

It's been decent for me in Historic Brawl and draft on Arena. I just don't know how I feel about it in this deck. We aren't running a lot of sac outlets, and not a lot of non-exile removal. I feel like for it to be solid, I'd want to see it triggering twice per turn cycle, but maybe that's greedy?

Compare to Bitterblossom. If you could get at least 1 per turn cycle I think it is definitely playable. The mana investment is so low it doesnt need to do backflips. If either of you try it please tell us how it goes!

Bitterblossom makes flying tokens that can block and can attack more than once. I'm not sure that making 1 decayed zombie per turn cycle warrants inclusion, and this isn't even guaranteed to do that. It's certainly possible to play this and have it do nothing for a couple of turns, which is my biggest concern.

Yeah those are the obvious differences. What you say is true and the reason I probably wont have it in my list. I do think it is playable though for the people who want to try it. I wouldnt shoot it down altogether its just not something I want to test.

I will probably be adding it to my yawgmoth deck though

[plaganegra]

The story of Gisa, Geralf, and Wilhelt are all intertwined:

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... 2021-09-24

[yeti1069]

Interesting.

So, I've now played against Wilhelt decks a half dozen times, some out of the box, and some fairly upgraded. BOY does that deck go wide! All of the zombie token production gets kind of nuts with "Wilham" around, and it was rare for a turn to go by without the player getting a draw off of him. Curious to see how he'll work out in here. In one game the Wilhelt player dropped the landfall=zombie curse on me while I was behind on lands running a 5 color dragon deck...and then kept milling away my land drops. Think he made only 2 zombies off of me the whole game. Enchanting yourself may be the right play most games unless you get it down early on someone who will definitely be making land drops every turn.

I've played around with some of the new cards in Arena Brawl decks, and I've been liking Champion of the Perished a little, and Tainted Adversary a lot. Ghoulish Procession has been so/so. That's also 1v1, so it could trigger more in a 4 player game, but I'm also envisioning turns going by without seeing a token.

[ChocoDude]

I managed to play two games of 1 v 1 versus Liesa, Shroud of Dusk with a few new additions and surprisingly won both games. Liesa has been a formidable opponent in the past.

Added: Wilhelt, the Rotcleaver, Empty the Laboratory, Crowded Crypt, Hordewing Skaab, Cleaver Skaab, and Tragic Arrogance
Removed: Herald's Horn, Mission Briefing, Teferi's Ageless Insight, Mystic Remora, Lord of the Accursed, and Austere Command

Game 1 notes: Tragic Arrogance completely upset Liesa's tempo when it was needed most. At the time I only had 5 mana available and I wouldn't have been able to play Austere Command. I appreciated getting to sculpt their board a bit in my favor as well. So yay!! n=1 for good feelings. Only saw Crowded Crypt of the new adds and pitched it to the yard.

Game 2 notes: Liesa got up to 58 life at one point and Varina still took her down. Managed to get Wilhelt on the board, lost four zombies in an attack, gaining four decayed zombie tokens off of Wilhelt, which I then turned into Mikaeus, the Unhallowed, Graveborn Muse ,Grimgrin, Corpse-Born, and Diregraf Colossus using Empty the Laboratory. That was truly a bomb sift! ETL will also work quite well with Tombstone Stairwell, so it's a keeper in my book. Pitched Crowded Crypt again. Also pitched Hordewing Skaab to the yard and it didn't have any impact. Both Crypt and the Hordewing seemed pretty...meh!! Did not see Cleaver Skaab, so that card's fate in the deck is TBD.

After those two games.

Added: Wonder and Corpse Augur to test out. Since I removed TAI and Mystic Remora, thought I try the Augur for draw purposes.
Removed: Hordewing Skaab and Crowded Crypt

Maybe those changes were premature, but I really didn't have the feel-goods about either of those cards. Overall, I still have 3 more creatures in the deck than before upping my count to 34 (Wonder being the only non-zombie).

[yeti1069]

When you pitched the Hordewing, did you have open attacks and didn't need flying, or did you just not want to spend the mana on it?

[ChocoDude]

Didn't want to spend the mana on it and I had open attacks.

[yeti1069]

May be premature cutting it then. Pitching it in a situation you don't need it doesn't necessarily count against it.

[ChocoDude]

I do recall now that I used that mana to cast Akroma's Will to end the game. However, let's say I was holding Wonder there instead and didn't have Akroma's Will. I'm pretty certain I had an island, so my attack trigger would've allowed me to pitch Wonder while holding up mana for something else to further my gameplan. So I like the cost of Wonder more even though Hordewing is a zombie.

[toctheyounger]

Definitely good to get the feedback. I wasn't going to pull the trigger on Empty the Laboratory myself, but i might well give it a punt. Hordewing I'm personally not that psyched for anyway, it just doesn't give me that special feeling deep inside. As a toss up I'd probably go for Wonder anyway as you don't have to cast it.

I've got a few changes coming myself, but I think I'll hold off on ab update until I've got all of the cards on board that I actually intend to add. Might be a little while with us still in relative lockdown, but its sure easier for me, and I still have a few orders to come in anyway.

One card I wanted to float as a possibility of secret tech that might or might not make here and there - Solemnity. I've been toying with the idea of adding it in for the benefit of Mystic Remora, [Tombstone Stairwell/card] and [card]Mikaeus, the Unhallowed . But there's also stuff like Butcher Ghoul, Putrid Goblin and Geralf's Messenger that it could work really well with. I know theres a couple of things a lot of decks are running that it sort of nonbos with but the ones I've been running personally are fairly cuttable.

What do you guys think? Is it purely a combo piece or something that might actually add some resilience over and above just going off for the win?

[Wallycaine]

One thing with Solemnity that I would want to be careful with is paying attention to what your opponents play to ensure you don't accidentally hand *them* a combo win. As you note, stuff like undying and persist go instantly infinite with a free sac outlet, and cards like Glacial Chasm can provide a lock for a number of win cons. So it'll be interesting (and probably meta dependent) to see as to whether it helps or hurts your opponents more.

[toctheyounger]

A fair point indeed. You can't really ever know for sure you're going to hand someone a win, at least in a pickup game, but definitely something to be wary of.

[plaganegra]

@ChocoDude Empty the Laboratory - now even more excited. I can't imagine they will all be that good, but when you have access to zombie tokens it cannot fail, especially when you are saccing decayed zombies. I am not sure if you run it, and many don't - but Tormod, the desecrator is basically a token doubler with varina, and value-town with any zombie that comes back.

@toctheyounger without using a bunch of tutors I don't see the consistency for using a card like solemnity. I think majority of the time it just does absolutely nothing worthwhile to the game state. I had no idea this card existed though and will be getting one for the Zur toolbox deck I am building! In this deck it is essentially a combo card that doesn't do anything for you (most of the time) outside of the combo. Without tutor support its probably not worth the effort...

[ChocoDude]

@plaganegra Yeah I've got a copy of Tormod sitting in my sideboard. If Cleaver Skaab doesn't work out, I'll test out Tormod there. And yes, I had a phenomenal sift with Empty the Laboratory.

[plaganegra]

@plaganegra Yeah I've got a copy of Tormod sitting in my sideboard. If Cleaver Skaab doesn't work out, I'll test out Tormod there. And yes, I had a phenomenal sift with Empty the Laboratory.

Cleaver Skaab is an interesting card that I have a hard time making room for in my version of the deck. Because to get value:

1. You need to have another zombie out that you want to copy
2. You need at least 7 mana to invest before it does anything

In my mind this is just not worth the investment of a card slot, and those resources unless you really like the effect because it is definitely a unique one and has a lot of circumstantial "fun" upside.

Tormod, the desecrator (as just one possible comparison) requires no additional mana investment, and combos with Varina, so no additional setup is needed outside of playing your deck (the GY will fill up on its own if you utilize varina). He is higher up on the curve where options are many, and slots are few - so I understand why everyone doesn't run him though.

[ChocoDude]

Your logic is solid and I was thinking similarly about Cleaver Skaab. Tormod is the easy sell here. I just want a chance to try out the Skaab in gameplay first just to give it a shot. I was really only sold on Wilhelt and Empty the Lab from the new set, but thought I'd try out a few of the other cards anyway. Sometimes cards play better in-game than they look on paper.