Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

[toctheyounger]

I don't get yalls concerns about Zombie Master, its why we run sac outlets.

Filth and Wonder seem fine and I won't debate their efficacy in evasion for combat. I just have a couple of issues regarding their inclusion.

1. They're completely negated by our main win con of mass reanimation. At least, in 3 out of 4 scenarios anyway. Clearly we're not choosing incarnations with Bidding. I guess my point above still stands as thats why we run sac outlets, but still....
2. Why do I care about combat evasion? Its fairly rare that swinging in is what I win with, although it won't stop me doing it. Most of the games I'm in I either don't care if my creatures die or connect to face or not, and the rest of them I can work around the board to hit face. This is kind of why I took Eldrazi Monument.

I'm happy to be proved wrong on either point. I just don't think any of the possible inclusions here are really worth it.

[BeneTleilax]

Why do I care about combat evasion? Its fairly rare that swinging in is what I win with, although it won't stop me doing it.

Ah, I generally win through combat, so that's the difference. If I didn't, yeah, I wouldn't run them either.

[WizardMN]

Well, the comment about Zombie Master sort of applies to Wonder and Filth, right? Sure, we can sac Master so we don't get run over but we can also sac Wonder/Filth to do some running over.

Beyond that, I am with you though. Master is a good inclusion since it works well with our reanimation strategy but combat is rarely the winning play. And, if it is, Akroma's Will is the better card for it even if it is a one-shot. Obviously my issue with them is they are not zombies but I do believe they end up not being needed. They are good of course, but I don't think they are necessary.

I think I am going to try the XUU sorcery (I am too lazy to go back to find the name; Laboratory something?) but I agree that these end up being mostly duds, which is disappointing.

[toctheyounger]

Well, the comment about Zombie Master sort of applies to Wonder and Filth, right? Sure, we can sac Master so we don't get run over but we can also sac Wonder/Filth to do some running over.

Beyond that, I am with you though. Master is a good inclusion since it works well with our reanimation strategy but combat is rarely the winning play. And, if it is, Akroma's Will is the better card for it even if it is a one-shot. Obviously my issue with them is they are not zombies but I do believe they end up not being needed. They are good of course, but I don't think they are necessary.

I think I am going to try the XUU sorcery (I am too lazy to go back to find the name; Laboratory something?) but I agree that these end up being mostly duds, which is disappointing.

Yeah I think there's some neat design space. Just dampened by CMC is all. Wilhelt is a clear lock, but everything otherwise bears testing or just being left aside.

[WizardMN]

Agreed. Wilhelt is likely the only new card that almost certainly sticks for the long term.

[pokken]

You guys don't think Ravenous Rotbelly is an autoinclude? it feels like an almost board wipe level bro. I'd certainly try it over Fleshbag Marauder

I get that 5 is a lot but man, everyone sac three? That's bananas.

Basically a game ending combo with that Unholy Grotto.

[toctheyounger]

You guys don't think Ravenous Rotbelly is an autoinclude? it feels like an almost board wipe level bro. I'd certainly try it over Fleshbag Marauder

I get that 5 is a lot but man, everyone sac three? That's bananas.

Basically a game ending combo with that Unholy Grotto.

I did side eye it. Seems ok, I just want a higher token count before I go adding anything that needs it, such as this into the build. But then I also need to look at my creature count a little and edge it up a bit too. Gonna try and do a little tweaking in the next few days.

[plaganegra]

Problem with Zombie master: opponents will sometimes benefit from it. I faced the situation where I almost died to tombstone stairwell cause of swamp walk given by zombie master.

I should try Wonder I think.

I actually lost to an omnath deck with an active field of the dead this way. He got enough tokens to swing in for lethal quickly after draining everyone out over a few turns.

I don't get yalls concerns about Zombie Master, its why we run sac outlets.

Filth and Wonder seem fine and I won't debate their efficacy in evasion for combat. I just have a couple of issues regarding their inclusion.

1. They're completely negated by our main win con of mass reanimation. At least, in 3 out of 4 scenarios anyway. Clearly we're not choosing incarnations with Bidding. I guess my point above still stands as thats why we run sac outlets, but still....
2. Why do I care about combat evasion? Its fairly rare that swinging in is what I win with, although it won't stop me doing it. Most of the games I'm in I either don't care if my creatures die or connect to face or not, and the rest of them I can work around the board to hit face. This is kind of why I took Eldrazi Monument.

I'm happy to be proved wrong on either point. I just don't think any of the possible inclusions here are really worth it.

What @WizardMN said - you simply sac the wonder or filth. But honestly only one reanimate spell most people run actually hits them and that is living death. Wonder has literally won me games. I tried eldrazi monument and the like and found the ability of wonder to be much better and more resilient. Also if you happen to run instant speed GY tutors it can be a nasty combo.

I also try to win with combat damage. It is a personal choice after playing the "reanimate and win" game for so many years I am very bored of it. It is too predicatable in my playgroup. I usually win now with zombies and evasion and massive card advantage.

I pointed out a page back or so there seems to be two main schools of thought on how to play Varina as a commander:
-Varina is out and you are swinging with as many zombies as often as possible. Often synergy focused
-control/midrange gameplay with a big mass reanimate finale. Often zombie goodstuff oriented

Its a fine line between the two but combat damage works extremely well in this deck if you adjust your playstyle and list to emphasize that style of play...

[toctheyounger]

I mean I don't think the two styles are even all that far apart, one accommodates the other and they blend nicely into a tempo midrange build.

I do ok with combat, I've taken people out before. I just don't know that I need to pack specific evasion outside of tribal lords, and even then I don't necessarily need keywords. I've found generally just swinging I can find targets to connect with.

[plaganegra]

I mean I don't think the two styles are even all that far apart, one accommodates the other and they blend nicely into a tempo midrange build.

I do ok with combat, I've taken people out before. I just don't know that I need to pack specific evasion outside of tribal lords, and even then I don't necessarily need keywords. I've found generally just swinging I can find targets to connect with.

It is really a metagame dependent thing with your specific pod or play environment imo - How you choose to facilitate connecting with zombies (or not). Card choices are always going to be made through that lens whether we acknowledge that or not.

But to clarify - both playstyles I outlined are not mutually exclusive of each other. it is more about priorities. It is mostly just an observation meant to help understand the conversations in the thread a little better.

One more thing, I think the word "tempo" seems to be used a lot when it probably just means "midrange" and sometimes maybe "control". Tempo is very different than midrange and control, but shares some common card choices so it can be easy to confuse. Tempo decks just really focus on efficiency more than anything else. Here is a nice article that really does a good job of explaining a tempo style of play. https://blog.cardkingdom.com/what-is-tempo/

Simple example:
Discarding Wonder (tempo) vs casting zombie master (midrange). To illustrate the point (dont read into it too much):

• Discarding Wonder to Varina's effect is more of a tempo play. A very mana efficient play that rewards you for attacking with cheap creatures emphasizing efficiency. Varina is a card advantage/selection engine that helps you to do this consistently. Curving out with zombies that want to attack will maximize this effect.
• Casting Zombie Master is more of a midrange play. It doesnt require much setup and as long as your guy lives, you get the effect (which is a good one). However, it is easy to be out-tempo'd when someone uses a cheap removal spell on your zombie master or the entire board. Casting Zombie Master costs more mana and is a more "fair" and straightforward way to play, but is also much easier to pull off effectively.

Every deck cares about tempo in some way, and at the end of the article it explains how tempo can be used in control, aggro, and midrange shells.

So one deck can have both Wonder and Zombie master and has the capability to make more or less tempo-oriented plays. I just think that with such a great card advantage engine like Varina, it makes sense to leverage as much as you can the "discard" part of her effect to get some added "tempo" value. Both with cards like wonder or silversmote ghoul (Which are both generally very tempo positive and easy to pull off in this deck.) Again, it is also a playstyle choice: Two players can play the exact same game, same cards, same hands, in totally different ways depending on their focus or what they prefer to do. Add to that different lists in different metas, I think understanding that can help to bing nuance to the discussion.

(I used to play a lot of RUG Delver tempo decks in modern)

[Reya]

With your brainstorming about Wonder, I'm wondering (ha ha ...) if I can just replace Archfiend of Ifnir by Wonder. I switch a very efficient non zombie creature for another efficient one. The role is absolutely not the same but they both try to reach the same goal: keep swinging and digging with Varina! Archfiend will just blow out the board and Wonder will just let you destroy your opponent life point.

Bonus: we don't care to let Wonder dies or be sacrificed.

[plaganegra]

With your brainstorming about Wonder, I'm wondering (ha ha ...) if I can just replace Archfiend of Ifnir by Wonder. I switch a very efficient non zombie creature for another efficient one. The role is absolutely not the same but they both try to reach the same goal: keep swinging and digging with Varina! Archfiend will just blow out the board and Wonder will just let you destroy your opponent life point.

Bonus: we don't care to let Wonder dies or be sacrificed.

I mean you could do that but the two creatures do play entirely different roles for drastically different investment. Removal and evasion both help you swing in with Zombies, but each is its own thing. Archfiend has been in and out of my list because I usually just want to cast a board wipe, but when it works it is back breaking. I think I would actually want the flying zombie lord over Archfiend currently, but neither will probably make the cut when I finalize my post-release list of zombies.

But yeah, free stuff is awesome. I never cast Wonder. They grease the wheels and help make this deck play more smoothly and with better "tempo."

Wonder is essentially free evasion and it is hard to remove from the GY for most lists. Its only downside is that it takes up a card slot. I really love running Intuition and wonder is frequently in my choice of three cards. I know this is a pricey card, but it is Reserved List so it is also a pretty safe investment IMO. Buried Alive does the same thing but not at instant speed, which is noteworthy. Intuition is essentially better in every way in this deck since you have the option to keep the card or discard it to the GY with Varina anyway - you could go get thee board wipes for example. Currently I am running both as I upped my "GY" abilities in my list.

Intuition getting Snapcaster Mage and any two redundant spells at the end of the previous turn to yours essentially makes this an instant speed tutor. It is harder to play than Vampiric tutor, but depending on the situation is much more of a swiss army knife built into one instant speed spell. I just love it. Sometimes it is just 3x Entomb on one card which is kind of broken honestly lol. Consider that Gifts Ungiven is banned in this format (for now anyway).

I assume it is mostly a budget thing, but Intuition could probably be a staple in this sort of deck and I rarely see it mentioned. Right now you can get one for as low as $120ish and it will only appreciate in value. If you play UB zombies in commander it is probably worth acquiring for the long term even if you have to trade away some staples to get one.

[Falkenbach]

With Wonder is it difficult to get an island into play for you, since our decks usually lean heavy into black mana? I think i only run 5 islands including dual lands.

[yeti1069]

I played Intuition in here for a while. My problem was that my group tends to run LOTS of interaction, so tutoring for 3 mass reanimation spells at EOT often just meant losing all my mass reanimation spells: someone would counter the spell I got and cast, or would exile the graveyard in response to the reanimate, or board wipe/CycRift after everything came in. Using it as a triple Entomb I only did on occasion--I never wanted to stock the yard unless I could utilize the cards there (ie, mass reanimate ready to go), and it was rare that I just wanted to spend 3 mana that way. I keep wanting to slot it back in, since it can be so strong, and I hate having expensive cards sitting around, but haven't gotten to that yet.

[Reya]

With Wonder is it difficult to get an island into play for you, since our decks usually lean heavy into black mana? I think i only run 5 islands including dual lands.

I play 3 blue fetches, 2 blue Bilands, 2 blue Shockland and 4 Basics islands. I don't think having an island will be an issue (I still can add Sunkow hollow for an additional island). But I need to play some games to see if Wonder is a good alternative to Archfiend. I want to know if free fly swing is more useful than having Archfiend on the battlefield. Opponent will quite easely remove your Archfiend but will have a hardtime to remove your Wonder, especialy if you dicard it on Varina trigger.

[Reya]

I played Intuition in here for a while. My problem was that my group tends to run LOTS of interaction, so tutoring for 3 mass reanimation spells at EOT often just meant losing all my mass reanimation spells: someone would counter the spell I got and cast, or would exile the graveyard in response to the reanimate, or board wipe/CycRift after everything came in. Using it as a triple Entomb I only did on occasion--I never wanted to stock the yard unless I could utilize the cards there (ie, mass reanimate ready to go), and it was rare that I just wanted to spend 3 mana that way. I keep wanting to slot it back in, since it can be so strong, and I hate having expensive cards sitting around, but haven't gotten to that yet.

For now I use Vampiric Tutor as my only tutor (outside our Sidisi). Most games I just want to fetch for a mass rea spell, something to draw a lot (Rhystic) or ramping (smothering tithe). Intuition could be very cool in a Varina shell. I'm fine with the price. I always trade my RL cards for another RL cards !

[plaganegra]

So yeah, like I said Intuition is much more complicated to play than your average tutor. @yeti1069 Your mass reanimate spell would get countered in that scenario with or without the intuition. Another reason why countermagic is so valuable if mass reanimation is your main plan. But it is just one of the hundreds of combinations of cards you could get with intuitions flexibility - hardly the go to play imo, just an example.

I would only search out my game ending spell if I could protect it or the chances of it being messed with were slim. I usually go for a more tempo play and get three of these cards:

• Gravecrawler
• Silversmote Ghoul
• Master of Death
• Wonder/Filth
• Still considering Prized Amalgam here, but it is not currently in my list
• Something juicy for a future mass reanimate (Mikaeus the Unhallowed or Gray Merchant of Asphodel). Sometimes just to draw out any GY removal early in the game.
• Sevinne's Reclamation (and possibly something I want to get with it, like a phyrexian altar or utility zombie I need like Diregraf Captain or Withered Wretch)
• Snapcaster Mage (and two spells or any combination of a spell and any of the above)

There are just so many "piles" you can make with Intuition.

If you don't run anything in your deck that wants to be in the GY other than Gravecrawler, then Intuition makes no sense in your deck. I would also say though, that you are missing out on a lot of synergies and fun options with this particular commander. Again - the two playstyles I mentioned before. Intuition works much better in a synergy build, but could go in either.

I never have problems with having an island to activate wonder personally. I do run 5 fetches though and a few duals. Hey you could always get the island, wonder, and Sevinne's reclamation as an intuition pile! Your opponent will likely just let you keep the wonder and then next turn you can flashback sevinne's, ramp yourself, and then discard the wonder on attack. Soooo many options with that card you could never list them all if you tried. If they choose to let you keep the island or the Sevinne's they just made a big mistake lol

[Kvothe]

I personally don't want to run non-zombies in the deck, but regarding the evasion effects I would like to say that I often find value in running my creatures into blockers.

[Eburon]

I am not big on Wonder or Filth. Zombie Master is Filth on a body. Sure they can kill it, but at the same time they can remove incarnations from your GY. If we are ever forced to hard cast either of them, Zombie Master is vastly superior.

Zombie Master's drawback is avoidable (don't cast it into bas situations).

[plaganegra]

@Eburon and @Kvothe I am not trying to tell anyone they should run these just trying to show the value in a different strategy I dont see fleshed out in the archetype. By all means play how you like. I wouldnt say that zombie master is superior or wonder is superior. Its all about how you play the deck. Thats what I was trying to explain in the post about tempo

[toctheyounger]

It is really a metagame dependent thing with your specific pod or play environment imo - How you choose to facilitate connecting with zombies (or not). Card choices are always going to be made through that lens whether we acknowledge that or not.

But to clarify - both playstyles I outlined are not mutually exclusive of each other. it is more about priorities. It is mostly just an observation meant to help understand the conversations in the thread a little better.

One more thing, I think the word "tempo" seems to be used a lot when it probably just means "midrange" and sometimes maybe "control". Tempo is very different than midrange and control, but shares some common card choices so it can be easy to confuse. Tempo decks just really focus on efficiency more than anything else. Here is a nice article that really does a good job of explaining a tempo style of play. https://blog.cardkingdom.com/what-is-tempo/

Simple example:
Discarding Wonder (tempo) vs casting zombie master (midrange). To illustrate the point (dont read into it too much):

• Discarding Wonder to Varina's effect is more of a tempo play. A very mana efficient play that rewards you for attacking with cheap creatures emphasizing efficiency. Varina is a card advantage/selection engine that helps you to do this consistently. Curving out with zombies that want to attack will maximize this effect.
• Casting Zombie Master is more of a midrange play. It doesnt require much setup and as long as your guy lives, you get the effect (which is a good one). However, it is easy to be out-tempo'd when someone uses a cheap removal spell on your zombie master or the entire board. Casting Zombie Master costs more mana and is a more "fair" and straightforward way to play, but is also much easier to pull off effectively.

Every deck cares about tempo in some way, and at the end of the article it explains how tempo can be used in control, aggro, and midrange shells.

So one deck can have both Wonder and Zombie master and has the capability to make more or less tempo-oriented plays. I just think that with such a great card advantage engine like Varina, it makes sense to leverage as much as you can the "discard" part of her effect to get some added "tempo" value. Both with cards like wonder or silversmote ghoul (Which are both generally very tempo positive and easy to pull off in this deck.) Again, it is also a playstyle choice: Two players can play the exact same game, same cards, same hands, in totally different ways depending on their focus or what they prefer to do. Add to that different lists in different metas, I think understanding that can help to bing nuance to the discussion.

(I used to play a lot of RUG Delver tempo decks in modern)

Yeah, this whole Filth/Wonder vs Master thing.....it's totally subjective. I can see Wonder, tbh. Filth I think is a harder sell, purely because Master is a card, and is a zombie. It's worse from a tempo perspective, but I can swing with it for filtering. It could be the wrong choice, but it feels like more of a synergy add. Or, I guess partly the point you're making is there's two angles of synergy to work with, the zombie angle and the discard angle - god this commander has depth! I think maybe that's the beauty of Varina's design; you can't necessarily build synergy into every portion of her.

That tempo link was a good read. For my part I've always at least mean to allude to tempo more as a concept than a deck archetype per se. What I got from the article is there's endless ways to generate tempo, but decklists that focus on it look a specific way.

Bringing it back to this deck, I think there's value in dropping the curve and using Varina's looting effect with as big an army as possible as early as possible. That gives us the most efficient way to filter for optimal hand sculpting. There is however something to be said for repetition of the effect too, and that's something that aiming for pure tempo will struggle with.

The closest possible comparison to a tempo EDH build I can think of is Edgar Markov, and the power of his early game is what I've been aiming for in considerations. But at the same time, Edgar folds to a board wipe like a house of cards; if he can't win early game his lasting power is terrible. So perhaps there's a lesson in that for me, in that midrange has less explosiveness early game, but grinds into the late game much, much better. To that end, I think lowering the CMC of my creatures is worth it, as curving into Varina is always great. But at the same time one drops don't necessarily win you the game.

[yeti1069]

The issue is that a lot of the historical analysis of Magic doesn't apply well to commander. When you're trying to get one opponent down 20 life, small incremental tempo advantages can get you there, but many of those same.plays don't work when you're looking at 120 life and 3 opponents. It's the problem I always had with Edgar: I could fairly reliably beat 2 opponents with a gameplay built on efficient 1 and 2 drop vampires backed by some.poweful 3 drops, but once a 3rd opponent comes in, it becomes exponentially more difficult to remove even one player.

I think my issue with Filth vs Zombie Master is that if you need bodies to swing, Filth doesn't get you there, doesn't interact, and doesn't draw cards. Now there's always a balance between combat tricks and the bodies to use them on, but if you can get a trick ON a body, that's almost always better. Wonder is a little different because the cost of giving the team flying with a body is higher, and flying can be both offense and defense. It's also less likely to be useless the way swampwalk can be.

I like winning with best down, but you have to have some crazy best down to win a game of commander, and we're not running that kind of deck generally. It's enough to kill an opponent, or soften up the table to close things out with a big play, but the times I've killed the table through straight combat with this deck are super rare. More often it's been a combination of combat and aristocrats effects.

To that end, reanimating Filth or Wonder doesn't do anything, whereas reanimating even a garbage zombie could be 1-5 more damage to the table. And "just sacrifice them" is well and good, but I don't see anyone running enough sac outlets here to be able to do so reliably. So far what I like most about Wonder is being able to discard it during an attack before blockers for surprise evasion.

That's all not to say tempo plays don't have a place in commander, but the strength of the plays need to be stacked up against the truths of the format. I'm trying Silversmote Ghoul and Master of Death because they're tempo that play into the deck synergies as well of needing zombie bodies. But they're also fairly low impact bodies.

[plaganegra]

Bringing it back to this deck, I think there's value in dropping the curve and using Varina's looting effect with as big an army as possible as early as possible. That gives us the most efficient way to filter for optimal hand sculpting. There is however something to be said for repetition of the effect too, and that's something that aiming for pure tempo will struggle with.

Im not sure what you mean by this can you elaborate? About repetition and pure tempo.

[yeti1069]

I do think Champion of the Perished may be getting undervalued. If we do want to be swinging in, and are giving our team evasion, there's much to be said for a 1 drop that could be pretty big pretty fast.

On the tempo and midrange front, I'm not in love with Decayed. The bodies are decent tempo, but terrible for grinding, and can't even serve double duty as attackers and sac fodder for many of our effects. You can sac them to Phyrexian Tower at end of combat to activate Varina, but not to cast anything, for example. So, I'm not sure how heavily I'll lean into them other than Wilhelt. Althought they DO play. Nicely with the 1 drop pun.

[plaganegra]

@yeti1069 I love the convo and I have some followup questions/counterpoints:

The issue is that a lot of the historical analysis of Magic doesn't apply well to commander. When you're trying to get one opponent down 20 life, small incremental tempo advantages can get you there, but many of those same.plays don't work when you're looking at 120 life and 3 opponents.

I am not understanding why the concept of tempo would not apply to commander? In my experience decks that win usually win because everything in their hand and field aligns very efficiently with minimal disruption (with great tempo). Tempo is just a metric in magic, it's not something that doesn't apply to certain formats. It is just a measure of how efficient your deck/gameplay choices are in a specific game.

I think my issue with Filth vs Zombie Master is that if you need bodies to swing, Filth doesn't get you there, doesn't interact, and doesn't draw cards. Now there's always a balance between combat tricks and the bodies to use them on, but if you can get a trick ON a body, that's almost always better. Wonder is a little different because the cost of giving the team flying with a body is higher, and flying can be both offense and defense. It's also less likely to be useless the way swampwalk can be.

I think this is what those two cards look like in a vaccuum, but not in practice. In practice Filth/Wonder is a card you want to discard, and zombie master is not. There is a big difference here. If Varina is functioning as a commander you will be discarding cards every turn, so the comparison isn't as simple as this imo. Unless your density of zombies is on the lower side maybe and you are looking at Wonder/Filth and wishing it was a zombie instead. In practice when I am playing these it is of almost no consequence to discard them and get the free buffs to my board, and I still have other zombies to play the vast majority of the time. Wonder is the clear favorite, Filth could be cut, but personally I still like having the effect in the deck. I am even considering adding master back into the fold in addition to these other two.

To that end, reanimating Filth or Wonder doesn't do anything, whereas reanimating even a garbage zombie could be 1-5 more damage to the table. And "just sacrifice them" is well and good, but I don't see anyone running enough sac outlets here to be able to do so reliably. So far what I like most about Wonder is being able to discard it during an attack before blockers for surprise evasion.

Why would you reanimate Wonder or Filth? I am confused why you would bring this up, maybe I am missing something... from what I can tell only one card brings these back in most decks and that is living death, which is a pretty narrow scenario and easy to fix with any sac outlet.

That's all not to say tempo plays don't have a place in commander, but the strength of the plays need to be stacked up against the truths of the format. I'm trying Silversmote Ghoul and Master of Death because they're tempo that play into the deck synergies as well of needing zombie bodies. But they're also fairly low impact bodies.

I am really happy to hear you are trying these cards, but keep in mind that if you are discarding them and getting free abilities out of them then there is only so much you can expect. Imagine a world where something like grimgrin, corpse born came back for free - it would be insane. These free effects are there not to be the focus of the deck, but grease the wheels to make Varina herself operate a with a little more impact.

Silversmote Ghoul is there to just keep attacking consistently and come back for free, fueling Varina's ability on both sides with a relevant discard effect and then a body that triggers her. Occasionally you might want to draw a card in a pinch.

Master of Death is a "free" draw every turn you attack with Varina. You just keep discarding it and bringing it back every turn, taking the place of something else you would have to discard. Effectively it is a 2-card combo with Varina that reads "pay 1 life: draw a card, once per turn" and costs zero mana to activate - Seems good. With the proper setup it's a free zombie phyrexian arena.

Edit-
Also - I agree. Champion of the Perished can get super big super fast, which can make it a pretty favorable attacker at 1cmc. He adds tempo too as he gets larger and more difficult to kill for free from the (also free) zombies like silversmote ghoul or decayed coming into play.