Zedruu the Greatest of All Time

[Ryujin76]

Always a pleasure getting a rundown of your current list. Due to the nature of how Zedruu is built, making changes is always more of "which flavour of combo" rather than "best available combo". This thread is always a goldmine full of ideas. The counters matters package a while back, and now you've brought Toralf and Taii being best buds to my attention. I quite like the scenario where you donate indestructible creatures and have Toralf repeatedly ping back and forth for either infinite single target damage or infinite draws,

[tstorm823]

I quite like the scenario where you donate indestructible creatures and have Toralf repeatedly ping back and forth for either infinite single target damage or infinite draws,

It's a 5 card combo, but Chance for Glory + Taii Wakeen, Perfect Shot + Toralf, God of Fury // Toralf's Hammer + Zedruu the Greathearted + something that damages multiple targets can end the game. Lets Firestorm and Inferno Titan feel super cool.

The back side of Toralf is still infinite with Jeskai Ascendancy and an army of mana dorks.

[Sefir]

Okidokie, updated deck draft time.

1) Is Electrodominance worth its spot in the list without Rootha, Mercurial Artist and MOM for their Swans loop? Seems an easy swap for Vedalken Orrery/Tidal Barracuda/Heliod, the Radiant Dawn // Heliod, the Warped Eclipse to me.
2) I am still not sold on Three steps Ahead. If we wanted to play modal cards that can offer to the deck, we would have played things like Cryptic Command, etc a long time ago. Can it be useful? 100%. But there is a literal war for a spot in the deck righ now.
3) While I do agree that your list is a bit too creature heavy, I love the addition of Toralf and the return of Brash Taunter.
4) Time Spiral coming back, meant the removal of Echo of Eons I guess? I still think they can both have a place in a Roothless list. I will again suggest Jeska's Will as another good alternative, I am very satisfied with the results.
5) Strangely enough, I was in a semi-similar thought of changing some things in my deck, though my approach was far less radical than yours. I havent lost with the deck for a long time and , most of the time, the usual culprits were either the Displacer Kitten+Coveted Jewel interaction, or the MOM+Coveted Jewel interaction. The verdict was swift, and it wounds me, but Jewel was axed. The fact that only 1 4-cards combo with it remained in the deck with it, was the second reason.
I was also to the market for another Kiki effect. I was very unsatisfied from Splinter Twin and Fable of the Mirror-Breaker // Reflection of Kiki-Jiki. But then...... I discovered I own a Feldon of the Third Path. This was the answer I wanted. It allowed most of the copy lines, turns creatures into artifacts and the effect is repeatable. Why play 7 mana for a Wormfang Manta when I can use just 3 at instant speed? Cadric, Soul Kindler was removed too. I didnt like him in my build, too few legendary permanents that actually mattered to get copied apart from Zedruu and any combos Cadric was in. Relic of Legends most definetely stayed though, even with a low number of legends, just turning my commander into a mana rock was usually worth it and that was the floor.
Since it had been some time that I removed Walking Archive from my list, I was pondering trying back Tawnos, Urza's Apprentice with the thought that, with Zedruu in my gy, Feldon can create a copy of the goat just before my turn, leading to a 4-card combo with Tawnos and MOM.....until I discovered that Feldon, Tawnos and Manta are 3-card infinite. Once more, he is too strong dammit!!!
Still not 100% satisfied with Yorion, Sky Nomad, all its combos involve Wormfang Manta, I would like more variety. The addition of Feldon certainly helps its general utility.
Finally, I am not sure how this will go, but I am trying a few morph creatures in my list. The other day, when an opponent of mine attacked to another of my opponents with just 5 creatures, a simple block affair was destroyed with me revealing a Blistering Firecat, followed by a Mirrorweave and a Vanish Into Memory resulting to the actuall death of the defending player, emptying the entire board since every creature had to get sacrificed at the end of turn and me ending the turn with a good CA. I am on the market for more morph creatures that can have fun combos/synergies in the deck. Whoever has any ideas, shoot.

[tstorm823]

Snip

I started responding, but it's gonna take a bit. I'll circle back in a few hours.

[tstorm823]

1) Is Electrodominance worth its spot in the list without Rootha, Mercurial Artist and MOM for their Swans loop? Seems an easy swap for Vedalken Orrery/Tidal Barracuda/Heliod, the Radiant Dawn // Heliod, the Warped Eclipse to me.

Once upon a time, I played Shimmer Myr, and I cut it from the deck. The very next game, I had an opponent cast The Great Aurora, and it response I Mirrorweaved a Monastery Mentor and played a bunch of cards to make a pile of tokens, and then when the Aurora resolved, I drew most of my deck. And I was next to get a turn. On my upkeep, an opponent hit me for 1 damage with Aurelia's Fury, and I had no response, and then I've had an instant speed flash enabler ever since.

That being said, you're definitely right that this one is shrinking in synergies quickly.

2) I am still not sold on Three steps Ahead. If we wanted to play modal cards that can offer to the deck, we would have played things like Cryptic Command, etc a long time ago. Can it be useful? 100%. But there is a literal war for a spot in the deck righ now.

If Cryptic Command had a clone option, I'd probably have added it years ago. Instant speed Phyrexian Metamorph doesn't need the modality to have my attention, the rest is bonus.

4) Time Spiral coming back, meant the removal of Echo of Eons I guess? I still think they can both have a place in a Roothless list. I will again suggest Jeska's Will as another good alternative, I am very satisfied with the results.

It's just as much losing Mind Over Matter that hurts Echo of Eons. Having Echo be mana positive was definitely its most powerful usage, and it's lacking that now. I may add Jeska's Will to the short list though, I'm sure it's a good time.

.....until I discovered that Feldon, Tawnos and Manta are 3-card infinite. Once more, he is too strong dammit!!!

\Whoever has any ideas, shoot.

Morphs sounds like fun, but that is an archetype I've never touched to offer any experience.

[Dragonlover]

Whoever has any ideas, shoot.

Firstly, I'm very sad that you're in the wrong colours for like, every single face down enabling creature pretty much. I personally find that a lot of the joy of face down cards is having a high density of them in the deck, otherwise people know which three you run and play accordingly, so how many are you looking to include?

Off the top of my head, Aurelia's Vindicator seems pretty good. I'd avoid Ashcloud Phoenix as I suspect that ends up in a 3 card combo pretty fast. Fortune Thief can help stop you dying but doesn't do anything against commander damage if that's a concern. Man, I'm just skimming through the options, it's amazing how so much of the solid stuff is in green and just how badly white got shafted, especially in the OG Onslaught block stuff. Vesuvan Shapeshifter if you're looking for a clone?

Not sure how useful it is, given the wildly different colour balance, but my morph deck is here: https://www.moxfield.com/decks/mH9qHgTNFk6E0isV49RiEA. It's four colours (no white), but might spark something.

Dragonlover

[Sefir]

Firstly, I'm very sad that you're in the wrong colours for like, every single face down enabling creature pretty much.

Well, U and G are probably the best colors and I run one of them.....

Man, I'm just skimming through the options, it's amazing how so much of the solid stuff is in green and just how badly white got shafted, especially in the OG Onslaught block stuff.

Funny, isn't it? Back in the original Onslaught block in standard, by far the most powerful and playable card was Exalted Angel, a true bomb. I believe there were only 2-3 playable morph cards back then, all of them were either for white control or red goblins. How the tables have turned.....

Not sure how useful it is, given the wildly different colour balance, but my morph deck is here: https://www.moxfield.com/decks/mH9qHgTNFk6E0isV49RiEA. It's four colours (no white), but might spark something.

Thx, I will have a look. Tbh, I had an Animorphs deck for more than 3 years, but I took it off since it became less of a morph deck and more of a....Solitaire, playing every morph creature for free, triggering a bunch of Beast Whisperer effects, making Animar a 15/15 in t5 was not something rare..... Animar, Soul of Elements is a fair card......

To the morphs in question, I will probably not use more than 3. I dont need creatures that do something when they are turned face up, I want creatures that have interesting abilities that, coincidentally have morph. Blistering Firecat creates a massive trampler, is a 7/1 and sacrifices itself eot. Aphetto Alchemist is an untapper, so its floor is a mana rock, that can target himself for infinite taps/untaps (dont think I have a way to abuse that in my list). Chromeshell crab fits the Zedruu theme, but I have abandoned stealing effects a long time ago. Ashcloud Phoenix is interesting, has some synergy with Displacer Kitten, but nothing more than that I believe. Unstable Hulk can be a choice, to pair with Chance for Glory, but I think that this is too niche even for me. Vesuvan Shapeshifter is the easiest slot (even without the usual pairing with Brine Elemental), a good clone effect that can change each turn and yes, it combos too with my beloved Wormfang Manta among others.

In other news, many MH3 spoilers around and the cute doggo Phelia, Exuberant Shepherd is the one I am mostly excited about. Low cmc legend, in monowhite, with excellent synergy with things like Parallax Wave, Cavalier of Dawn, any PW, etc, it can flicker stuff we donated if we want them back (Hi Gilded Drake!). Also, its a cute doggo. I know we had the option of Venser, the Sojourner for that effect, but the cmc difference is simply huge.

[ihatemaryfisher]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned or Shifting Grift or Return the Favor or Final Showdown?

Shifting Grift can provide an early swap for Zedruu the Greathearted, or work as a huge disruptor swapping six!? pieces around the board. Depending on your meta—and the utility of swapping lands/planeswalkers—it could replace Vedalken Plotter or Role Reversal.

Return the Favor has versatility, and works with nearly every card in the deck, e.g.,

• Copy Mirror of Fate ability
• Copy Arcbond
• Copy Azor's Gateway // Sanctum of the Sun(either ability)
• And many more...

Final Showdown has the weakest interactions, but I wonder if its 1st mode can create any combos

[tstorm823]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned or Shifting Grift or Return the Favor or Final Showdown?

Shifting Grift can provide an early swap for Zedruu the Greathearted, or work as a huge disruptor swapping six!? pieces around the board. Depending on your meta—and the utility of swapping lands/planeswalkers—it could replace Vedalken Plotter or Role Reversal.

Return the Favor has versatility, and works with nearly every card in the deck, e.g.,

• Copy Mirror of Fate ability
• Copy Arcbond
• Copy Azor's Gateway // Sanctum of the Sun(either ability)
• And many more...

Final Showdown has the weakest interactions, but I wonder if its 1st mode can create any combos

Shifting Grift doesn't target lands. I've played my share of Role Reversal, and it's majority land swapping for me, and then next best use is swapping around commanders, but Grift costs 4 to do that. I suspect it's just not that good. For someone just getting into Zedruu with easier access to newer cards, I'd say go for it, but it's not top of the swap list.

Return the Favor combos: Eye of the Storm, cast any instant or sorcery that can generate mana, triggering Eye, cast Return the Favor in response to the trigger. Eye exiles Return the Favor, which can copy the first eye trigger which casts both spells which can copy the first eye trigger again, and the spell that makes mana pays for the 1 to for Return the Favor each time... I can't play Return the Favor unless I either cut Eye of the Storm or play none of Turnabout, Time Spiral, Catch // Release, Replication Technique, Jeska's Will... you get the idea.

[ihatemaryfisher]

Return the Favor combos: Eye of the Storm, cast any instant or sorcery that can generate mana, triggering Eye, cast Return the Favor in response to the trigger. Eye exiles Return the Favor, which can copy the first eye trigger which casts both spells which can copy the first eye trigger again, and the spell that makes mana pays for the 1 to for Return the Favor each time...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this is a 3-card infinite mana combo? Similarly to Bonus Round +Turnabout +Narset's Reversal, you still need a 4th card to win... I haven't run Eye of the Storm in a while, so I don't know.

Anyways, copying opponents' activated and triggered abilities is vary rare. I like using my opponents' cards as combo pieces, so this opens up a lot of interesting lines.

[Sefir]

Return the Favor combos: Eye of the Storm, cast any instant or sorcery that can generate mana, triggering Eye, cast Return the Favor in response to the trigger. Eye exiles Return the Favor, which can copy the first eye trigger which casts both spells which can copy the first eye trigger again, and the spell that makes mana pays for the 1 to for Return the Favor each time...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this is a 3-card infinite mana combo? Similarly to Bonus Round +Turnabout +Narset's Reversal, you still need a 4th card to win... I haven't run Eye of the Storm in a while, so I don't know.

It is not just Turnabout.
For example, Eye+Return the Favor+Time Spiral or Jeska's Will resolves in an infinite, since both TS and JW both create mana AND give extra cards. While they do not work as an infinite with Bonus Round+Narset's Reversal (not without Turnabout anyways), since Bonus+Reversal+Time Spiral will result in the original TIme Spiral getting shuffled in the library, while Bonus+Reversal+Jeska's Will at some point will not work, since Jeska's Will creates only R mana, while Narset's Reversal needs a constant 2U to getting cast again and again.

[Sefir]

In other news, many MH3 spoilers around and the cute doggo Phelia, Exuberant Shepherd is the one I am mostly excited about. Low cmc legend, in monowhite, with excellent synergy with things like Parallax Wave, Cavalier of Dawn, any PW, etc, it can flicker stuff we donated if we want them back (Hi Gilded Drake!). Also, its a cute doggo. I know we had the option of Venser, the Sojourner for that effect, but the cmc difference is simply huge.

Unfortunately, after a little more playtesting, as long as I run Wormfang Manta and Mirage Mirror (now Vesuvan Shapeshifter too), ANY repeatable flickering effect will result in a 3-card combo in my list. Goodbye sweet doggo. I will try to find you a spot in another deck of mine. While Displacer Kitten usually also leads to that, technically there is always an extremely small chance that I will remain with 0 noncreature cards in hand to cast so that the extra turns stop. For the moment, Kitty stays, mostly because it triggers too many unique combos, but I am also pondering a possible removal of the Kitty. After the removal of Yorion, I am looking for other flickering effects.

As far as the hunt for more faced down creatures, Vasuvan Shapeshifter has been great. Excellent clone effect, that it can't be responded to, great synergy with my flying fish and it can also copy Coveted Falcon to trigger its face up more times. In fact, VS changed a bit my perspective about morph (morph, megamorph, manifest, disguise..... I will call all of them morphs to save time!). I was thinking that I should look for more interesting creatures with morph, but really, the "when it turns face up it does X" was something I didnt really care about!! I was looking more to how their static abilities or their general activated abilities can find interactions, like the sacrifice effect of a Blistering Firecat or the infinite tap/untap triggers of a Aphetto Alchemist. I was not looking at the face up trigger, since, with few exceptions (did you knew Mischievous Quanar goes infinite with Turnabout on its own?) this is a one-time deal. With Vesuvan Shapeshifter though, I can do it each turn.

Combine all the above: Enter Unyielding Gatekeeper. He is cheap. He is a morph creature, with a flickering effect, or a removal effect for my opponents stuff if I choose to. It can be done EVERY turn if he gets copied by Vesuvan Shapeshifter and yes, there is a 4-card infinite with Wormfang Manta+Mirage Mirror+Vesuvan Shapeshifter+Unyielding Gatekeeper. And ofc he is a small Loxodon, which is a bit cute on its own. Mind you, Gatekeeper doesnt flicker the permanent back under its owner's control, so stolen stuff can be flickered as well if I wish to (though I am not so much for stealing these days). I am looking through more interactions that the Gatekeeper might have in my deck other than the obvious flickering of stuff like Parallax Wave or my PWs but so far no other 4-card combos. I really want to test him though.

I dont know if I will end up keeping that small morph package, but so far it has been a very fun addition to the deck.

EDIT: I am very happy to finally discover in my list a 4-card combo that includes Relic of Legends, and it involves Rootha, Mercurial Artist, a flash enabler and Jeska's Will.

[Sefir]

Shadow of the Second Sun was teased. Sphinx of the Second Sun is probably still better, a good flying body that can get copied easier, but Sphinx ability for 6cmc instead of 8 can't get passed easily (also Shadow can be donated, though at that point if you are beyond the point of still gifting stuff)

[tstorm823]

Shadow of the Second Sun was teased. Sphinx of the Second Sun is probably still better, a good flying body that can get copied easier, but Sphinx ability for 6cmc instead of 8 can't get passed easily (also Shadow can be donated, though at that point if you are beyond the point of still gifting stuff)

Sphinx is 100% still far more powerful because of how often I end up with multiples of it quickly, even considering the mana cost difference. In context, however, I'm currently feeling creature heavy and a little bloated on mana costs, and I'm always a fan of bombs that can't be meaningfully stolen from me, so I certainly at minimum test this swap.

To your point on gifting stuff, a 6-drop is is hardly ideal for planning your Zedruu draws when deckbuilding, but during games with Shadow of the Second Sun, I would guess it gets donated 99% of the times it resolves. It both pays for the donation the turn it comes down and doubles the benefit.

The other card from yesterday I paused on is actually just Thraben Charm. I was literally asking for a charm that exiled graveyards a couple months ago, and I'm currently testing a build that has 5 cards that explicitly care about damage to creatures. Destroy target enchantment is meh, but they can't all be winners.

[Sefir]

I think I have decided on the final changes I will make on my list for the time being. As I said earlier, I also wanted to take Displacer Kitten out. The kitty served me well, TOO well, but I am finding that my list is starting to be a bit too etb-centric and monotony in terms on strategy is something I do NOT want. Since Kitty is out, the other victim is Venser, Shaper Savant. A multitool, but he only combos with the dear kitty in my list. Bonus Round is axed as well. Without the Kitty+Venser+Bonus Round+Jeska's Will combo, the only other combo remaining for it was the usual Narset's Reversal+Turnabout one and I wanted more from that slot.

A complaint some people had about my list was that it felt like it was "doing nothing and won out of nowhere". Thus I decided to add something with an unexpected effect to mix things up. I decided to give Infinite Reflection another chance. It gives my Cavalier of Dawn another combo (along with Walking Ballista that pairs with it) to replace the one it lost (the Cavalier+Lion's Eye Diamond+Kitty+Saheeli Rai), and I HAVE to do the interaction of Reflection+Wormfang Manta at least once. I really want to find another 4-card winning combo with Infinite Reflection to solidify its position in the deck.

Since I wanted to put a few more non-etb combos in my list, I decided to give Ioreth of the Healing House a chance. Obviously that means Cadric, Soul Kindler is also back in. It is already mentioned that Ioreth+Cadric+Sakashima/Saheeli Rai is infinite mana and, guess what, with the added Ballista I now have a mana sink (also useful for the Turnabout combos). They also synergise greatly with my recently added Feldon of the Third Path, that basically make infinite copies of whatever creature is in my gy.
Even something like Ioreth+Sakashima, the Impostor+ Feldon+Relic of Legends has the same result.

The final piece that I added was one I was thinking about for a long time. A simple Snap. Its synergy with Lore Drakkis is phenomenal. These 2 +a land that gives lots of mana (a flipped Azor's Gateway // Sanctum of the Sun or a Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx)+ a mana sink (Hi Ballista!) is a 4-card infinite mana combo that kills. It can be used with less mana if instead of the Ballista is something free, like a Saheeli, Sublime Artificer, but that needs a 5th card to win (a Pandemonium effect, a Mind's Desire, etc). Perhaps there are more combos to find out, I am certainly experimenting with things like multiple Lore Drakkis mutations.

Oh, and I will definetely add Sink into Stupor // Soporific Springs. It would be more useful if it didn't specify that it bounces an OPPONENT's permanent, but a protection spell that takes a land slot is still music to my ears. Bouncing a spell of our own is also good.

This is how the list looks like atm: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/5575897#paper

EDIT: And I didn't even consider the synergy between Ballista and Heliod, the Radiant Dawn // Heliod, the Warped Eclipse (facepalm)

[tstorm823]

A complaint some people had about my list was that it felt like it was "doing nothing and won out of nowhere".

Yup!

Even something like Ioreth+Sakashima, the Impostor+ Feldon+Relic of Legends has the same result.

Feldon is a card you play that I feel like I ought to at minimum theorize playing.

Oh, and I will definetely add Sink into Stupor // Soporific Springs. It would be more useful if it didn't specify that it bounces an OPPONENT's permanent, but a protection spell that takes a land slot is still music to my ears. Bouncing a spell of our own is also good.

I'm less sure about this. I don't think it hits our spells either, but I also don't think that's a horrible downside, not bouncing my permanents is a pretty big distinction. The nice thing about expensive end game dfc lands is that you usually only want them to be one of the two things. a maybe land and a 3-mana interaction spell are both things that are most in demand in the turns 3-6 time frame. Earlier than that, I hopefully don't need to give up a spell to hit my land drops, later than that I want my draws to have proactive options.

But it is decent interaction or a land, so while the ceiling is middling, the floor is very high.

The final piece that I added was one I was thinking about for a long time. A simple Snap. Its synergy with Lore Drakkis is phenomenal. These 2 +a land that gives lots of mana (a flipped Azor's Gateway // Sanctum of the Sun or a Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx)+ a mana sink (Hi Ballista!) is a 4-card infinite mana combo that kills. It can be used with less mana if instead of the Ballista is something free, like a Saheeli, Sublime Artificer, but that needs a 5th card to win (a Pandemonium effect, a Mind's Desire, etc). Perhaps there are more combos to find out, I am certainly experimenting with things like multiple Lore Drakkis mutations.

This got my attention, and I'm quite excited that it did: Return target creature to its owner's hand. Untap up to two lands.

Let me read that again: Return target creature to its owner's hand. Untap up to two lands.

Untap up to two target lands.

It doesn't say target? How does it not say target lands? Can that be right?

Ruling: "You choose which lands to untap as the spell resolves. They aren't targeted, and they don't have to be lands that you control."

Do you know what this means? It's a Precursor Golem card! The trick with Precursor triggers is getting an added benefit without that benefit targeting something else, and apparently Snap would only target a single golem, and then I would untap 6 lands. Or rather, even better, untap 2 lands 3 times. Even just doing that once is pretty exciting, throw in that Lore Drakkis and we're cooking up an infinite in there somewhere. And I think the last piece is actually just Three Steps Ahead. Precursor + clone + drakkis + snap untaps 12 lands and resets, but for that math to be profitable, we'd need a 2 mana clone (or a 5th combo piece like a bounce land). A cloning spell adds 4 more untaps, but then there are 2 spells that need recurred. Double drakkis triggers can fix that, but that requires cloning before snap resolves or you lose the mutate, so it needs to be an instant.

So start with Precursor mutated by Drakkis and 8 mana available, Snap target the Lore Golem, let the golem trigger resolve to have 3 Snaps on the stack, respond with Three Steps Ahead to make 5 more golems, pick up the originals, untap 6 lands. Drakkis the new Lore Golem to pick up both instants. Repeat the process, but this time there are 5 snaps and 7 new golems. End result is infinite mana through infinite land untaps, infinite 3/3 golem tokens, and then with infinite mana you get infinite draws with Three Steps Ahead (drawing into my best friend Angel's Grace to avoid elaborate suicide) and can play any instant or sorcery infinite times.

A Sanctum of the Sun would also do just fine in place of Precursor Golem, as Three Steps Ahead the Drakkis > Drakkis the Three Steps Ahead > Snap back the first Drakkis > Drakkis back both spells loops profitably if you can untap 2 lands and make >8 mana.

[Sefir]

Since I wanted to put a few more non-etb combos in my list, I decided to give Ioreth of the Healing House a chance. Obviously that means Cadric, Soul Kindler is also back in. It is already mentioned that Ioreth+Cadric+Sakashima/Saheeli Rai is infinite mana and, guess what, with the added Ballista I now have a mana sink (also useful for the Turnabout combos). They also synergise greatly with my recently added Feldon of the Third Path, that basically make infinite copies of whatever creature is in my gy.
Even something like Ioreth+Sakashima, the Impostor+ Feldon+Relic of Legends has the same result.

Well, that was a short-lived experiment. Feldon+Cadric+Ioreth in my gy+9 mana goes infinite. Feldon creates an Ioreth, Ioreth untaps Feldon, Feldon taps for another Ioreth, Ioreth lives the legendary rule because of Cadric, untaps Feldon, when I have 3 Ioreths in play they create infinite mana and with infinite mana and Feldon, I can create Infinite hasty Ioreths that can untap each other and can kill. Feldon 100% stays in the deck, but I will see which one of Cadric or Ioreth (or both) will take the axe for something different.

So start with Precursor mutated by Drakkis and 8 mana available, Snap target the Lore Golem, let the golem trigger resolve to have 3 Snaps on the stack, respond with Three Steps Ahead to make 5 more golems, pick up the originals, untap 6 lands. Drakkis the new Lore Golem to pick up both instants. Repeat the process, but this time there are 5 snaps and 7 new golems. End result is infinite mana through infinite land untaps, infinite 3/3 golem tokens, and then with infinite mana you get infinite draws with Three Steps Ahead (drawing into my best friend Angel's Grace to avoid elaborate suicide) and can play any instant or sorcery infinite times.

This is why you are the goat....
The Precursor Golem interaction completely flew over my mind and it is kinda awsome. I will see if I return to more of this tech (really want to avoid Arcbond shenanigans, I already have a deck devoted to dmg manipulation and redirection) or perhaps some more ways to abuse Infinite Reflection, like a Blinking Spirit or something.

EDIT: Morph continues to create many headaches in my local playgroup regarding rulings!! Yesterday, an Ixidron was played by one of my opponents and it turned everything face down. When my turn came, I played a Vesuvan Shapeshifter from the front side (targeting Ixidron, but it didnt really matter) and followed by enchanting him with Infinite Reflection. What happens here? Are all of my faced-down creatures Ixidrons that can be turned faced down (while they are already faced down mind you) at the begining of my upkeep? And if I do that, can I turn them face up afterwards? I THINK that I can indeed turn them face down down (sic) since when they become copies of the Shapeshifter, they are essentially count as faced up creatures, but if I turn them face down a la Vesuvan Shapeshifter way, I can't turn them face up anymore. If anyone has an idea about the rulings here, please help.

[Dragonlover]

What happens here? Are all of my faced-down creatures Ixidrons that can be turned faced down (while they are already faced down mind you) at the begining of my upkeep? And if I do that, can I turn them face up afterwards? I THINK that I can indeed turn them face down down (sic) since when they become copies of the Shapeshifter, they are essentially count as faced up creatures, but if I turn them face down a la Vesuvan Shapeshifter way, I can't turn them face up anymore. If anyone has an idea about the rulings here, please help.

I think (although don't take this as gospel) that they become face down Ixidrons. So if you did manage to turn them face up, they'd be an Ixidron, but until you do so they're just a 2/2. Mainly because otherwise they'd both be face up and face down, and I'm 99% sure the rules do not allow that.

Dragonlover

[Wallycaine]

What happens here? Are all of my faced-down creatures Ixidrons that can be turned faced down (while they are already faced down mind you) at the begining of my upkeep? And if I do that, can I turn them face up afterwards? I THINK that I can indeed turn them face down down (sic) since when they become copies of the Shapeshifter, they are essentially count as faced up creatures, but if I turn them face down a la Vesuvan Shapeshifter way, I can't turn them face up anymore. If anyone has an idea about the rulings here, please help.

I think (although don't take this as gospel) that they become face down Ixidrons. So if you did manage to turn them face up, they'd be an Ixidron, but until you do so they're just a 2/2. Mainly because otherwise they'd both be face up and face down, and I'm 99% sure the rules do not allow that.

Dragonlover

That's not correct. Being Face Down or Face Up is not a copiable value. What happens is that you have a number of face down cards that are Ixidrons with the "At the beginning of your upkeep, you may turn this creature face down". Since they're already face down, you can't actually turn them face down. You can, however, turn the original Vesuvan Shapeshifter face down, which will modify how future creatures enter the battlefield (causing them to come in as face up 2/2 colorless creatures, or something else if you turn the Shapeshifter up to copy something else).

[tstorm823]

EDIT: Morph... What happens here?

I genuinely didn't know and looked it up in the comprehensive rules, and it's quite the answer: they stay as face-down 2/2s. I think Dragonlover's got the gist, but here's the actual relevant rule:

708.10. If a face-down permanent becomes a copy of another permanent, its copiable values become
the copiable values of that permanent, as modified by its face-down status. Its characteristics
therefore remain the same: the characteristics listed by the ability or rules that allowed it to be
turned face down. However, if it is turned face up, its copiable values become the values it copied
from the other permanent.

So making them copies of Vesuvan Shapeshifter does not make them face up, they stay face down 2/2s. But if any of those have morph abilities, they could be morphed back face up as copies of Ixidron with the ability to turn face down. If you turn them face down with Vesuvan Shapshifter's ability, they would still flip back up as an Ixidron, they won't be able to clone other things, as Infinite Reflection makes them a copy of Vesuvan Shapeshifter as an Ixidron, it does not copy the triggered ability that made Vesuvan Shapeshifter into Ixidron, so it doesn't revert when turned back down.