Zedruu the Greatest of All Time

[Ryujin76]

Always a pleasure getting a rundown of your current list. Due to the nature of how Zedruu is built, making changes is always more of "which flavour of combo" rather than "best available combo". This thread is always a goldmine full of ideas. The counters matters package a while back, and now you've brought Toralf and Taii being best buds to my attention. I quite like the scenario where you donate indestructible creatures and have Toralf repeatedly ping back and forth for either infinite single target damage or infinite draws,

[tstorm823]

I quite like the scenario where you donate indestructible creatures and have Toralf repeatedly ping back and forth for either infinite single target damage or infinite draws,

It's a 5 card combo, but Chance for Glory + Taii Wakeen, Perfect Shot + Toralf, God of Fury // Toralf's Hammer + Zedruu the Greathearted + something that damages multiple targets can end the game. Lets Firestorm and Inferno Titan feel super cool.

The back side of Toralf is still infinite with Jeskai Ascendancy and an army of mana dorks.

[Sefir]

Okidokie, updated deck draft time.

1) Is Electrodominance worth its spot in the list without Rootha, Mercurial Artist and MOM for their Swans loop? Seems an easy swap for Vedalken Orrery/Tidal Barracuda/Heliod, the Radiant Dawn // Heliod, the Warped Eclipse to me.
2) I am still not sold on Three steps Ahead. If we wanted to play modal cards that can offer to the deck, we would have played things like Cryptic Command, etc a long time ago. Can it be useful? 100%. But there is a literal war for a spot in the deck righ now.
3) While I do agree that your list is a bit too creature heavy, I love the addition of Toralf and the return of Brash Taunter.
4) Time Spiral coming back, meant the removal of Echo of Eons I guess? I still think they can both have a place in a Roothless list. I will again suggest Jeska's Will as another good alternative, I am very satisfied with the results.
5) Strangely enough, I was in a semi-similar thought of changing some things in my deck, though my approach was far less radical than yours. I havent lost with the deck for a long time and , most of the time, the usual culprits were either the Displacer Kitten+Coveted Jewel interaction, or the MOM+Coveted Jewel interaction. The verdict was swift, and it wounds me, but Jewel was axed. The fact that only 1 4-cards combo with it remained in the deck with it, was the second reason.
I was also to the market for another Kiki effect. I was very unsatisfied from Splinter Twin and Fable of the Mirror-Breaker // Reflection of Kiki-Jiki. But then...... I discovered I own a Feldon of the Third Path. This was the answer I wanted. It allowed most of the copy lines, turns creatures into artifacts and the effect is repeatable. Why play 7 mana for a Wormfang Manta when I can use just 3 at instant speed? Cadric, Soul Kindler was removed too. I didnt like him in my build, too few legendary permanents that actually mattered to get copied apart from Zedruu and any combos Cadric was in. Relic of Legends most definetely stayed though, even with a low number of legends, just turning my commander into a mana rock was usually worth it and that was the floor.
Since it had been some time that I removed Walking Archive from my list, I was pondering trying back Tawnos, Urza's Apprentice with the thought that, with Zedruu in my gy, Feldon can create a copy of the goat just before my turn, leading to a 4-card combo with Tawnos and MOM.....until I discovered that Feldon, Tawnos and Manta are 3-card infinite. Once more, he is too strong dammit!!!
Still not 100% satisfied with Yorion, Sky Nomad, all its combos involve Wormfang Manta, I would like more variety. The addition of Feldon certainly helps its general utility.
Finally, I am not sure how this will go, but I am trying a few morph creatures in my list. The other day, when an opponent of mine attacked to another of my opponents with just 5 creatures, a simple block affair was destroyed with me revealing a Blistering Firecat, followed by a Mirrorweave and a Vanish Into Memory resulting to the actuall death of the defending player, emptying the entire board since every creature had to get sacrificed at the end of turn and me ending the turn with a good CA. I am on the market for more morph creatures that can have fun combos/synergies in the deck. Whoever has any ideas, shoot.

[tstorm823]

Snip

I started responding, but it's gonna take a bit. I'll circle back in a few hours.

[tstorm823]

1) Is Electrodominance worth its spot in the list without Rootha, Mercurial Artist and MOM for their Swans loop? Seems an easy swap for Vedalken Orrery/Tidal Barracuda/Heliod, the Radiant Dawn // Heliod, the Warped Eclipse to me.

Once upon a time, I played Shimmer Myr, and I cut it from the deck. The very next game, I had an opponent cast The Great Aurora, and it response I Mirrorweaved a Monastery Mentor and played a bunch of cards to make a pile of tokens, and then when the Aurora resolved, I drew most of my deck. And I was next to get a turn. On my upkeep, an opponent hit me for 1 damage with Aurelia's Fury, and I had no response, and then I've had an instant speed flash enabler ever since.

That being said, you're definitely right that this one is shrinking in synergies quickly.

2) I am still not sold on Three steps Ahead. If we wanted to play modal cards that can offer to the deck, we would have played things like Cryptic Command, etc a long time ago. Can it be useful? 100%. But there is a literal war for a spot in the deck righ now.

If Cryptic Command had a clone option, I'd probably have added it years ago. Instant speed Phyrexian Metamorph doesn't need the modality to have my attention, the rest is bonus.

4) Time Spiral coming back, meant the removal of Echo of Eons I guess? I still think they can both have a place in a Roothless list. I will again suggest Jeska's Will as another good alternative, I am very satisfied with the results.

It's just as much losing Mind Over Matter that hurts Echo of Eons. Having Echo be mana positive was definitely its most powerful usage, and it's lacking that now. I may add Jeska's Will to the short list though, I'm sure it's a good time.

.....until I discovered that Feldon, Tawnos and Manta are 3-card infinite. Once more, he is too strong dammit!!!

\Whoever has any ideas, shoot.

Morphs sounds like fun, but that is an archetype I've never touched to offer any experience.

[Dragonlover]

Whoever has any ideas, shoot.

Firstly, I'm very sad that you're in the wrong colours for like, every single face down enabling creature pretty much. I personally find that a lot of the joy of face down cards is having a high density of them in the deck, otherwise people know which three you run and play accordingly, so how many are you looking to include?

Off the top of my head, Aurelia's Vindicator seems pretty good. I'd avoid Ashcloud Phoenix as I suspect that ends up in a 3 card combo pretty fast. Fortune Thief can help stop you dying but doesn't do anything against commander damage if that's a concern. Man, I'm just skimming through the options, it's amazing how so much of the solid stuff is in green and just how badly white got shafted, especially in the OG Onslaught block stuff. Vesuvan Shapeshifter if you're looking for a clone?

Not sure how useful it is, given the wildly different colour balance, but my morph deck is here: https://www.moxfield.com/decks/mH9qHgTNFk6E0isV49RiEA. It's four colours (no white), but might spark something.

Dragonlover

[Sefir]

Firstly, I'm very sad that you're in the wrong colours for like, every single face down enabling creature pretty much.

Well, U and G are probably the best colors and I run one of them.....

Man, I'm just skimming through the options, it's amazing how so much of the solid stuff is in green and just how badly white got shafted, especially in the OG Onslaught block stuff.

Funny, isn't it? Back in the original Onslaught block in standard, by far the most powerful and playable card was Exalted Angel, a true bomb. I believe there were only 2-3 playable morph cards back then, all of them were either for white control or red goblins. How the tables have turned.....

Not sure how useful it is, given the wildly different colour balance, but my morph deck is here: https://www.moxfield.com/decks/mH9qHgTNFk6E0isV49RiEA. It's four colours (no white), but might spark something.

Thx, I will have a look. Tbh, I had an Animorphs deck for more than 3 years, but I took it off since it became less of a morph deck and more of a....Solitaire, playing every morph creature for free, triggering a bunch of Beast Whisperer effects, making Animar a 15/15 in t5 was not something rare..... Animar, Soul of Elements is a fair card......

To the morphs in question, I will probably not use more than 3. I dont need creatures that do something when they are turned face up, I want creatures that have interesting abilities that, coincidentally have morph. Blistering Firecat creates a massive trampler, is a 7/1 and sacrifices itself eot. Aphetto Alchemist is an untapper, so its floor is a mana rock, that can target himself for infinite taps/untaps (dont think I have a way to abuse that in my list). Chromeshell crab fits the Zedruu theme, but I have abandoned stealing effects a long time ago. Ashcloud Phoenix is interesting, has some synergy with Displacer Kitten, but nothing more than that I believe. Unstable Hulk can be a choice, to pair with Chance for Glory, but I think that this is too niche even for me. Vesuvan Shapeshifter is the easiest slot (even without the usual pairing with Brine Elemental), a good clone effect that can change each turn and yes, it combos too with my beloved Wormfang Manta among others.

In other news, many MH3 spoilers around and the cute doggo Phelia, Exuberant Shepherd is the one I am mostly excited about. Low cmc legend, in monowhite, with excellent synergy with things like Parallax Wave, Cavalier of Dawn, any PW, etc, it can flicker stuff we donated if we want them back (Hi Gilded Drake!). Also, its a cute doggo. I know we had the option of Venser, the Sojourner for that effect, but the cmc difference is simply huge.

[ihatemaryfisher]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned or Shifting Grift or Return the Favor or Final Showdown?

Shifting Grift can provide an early swap for Zedruu the Greathearted, or work as a huge disruptor swapping six!? pieces around the board. Depending on your meta—and the utility of swapping lands/planeswalkers—it could replace Vedalken Plotter or Role Reversal.

Return the Favor has versatility, and works with nearly every card in the deck, e.g.,

• Copy Mirror of Fate ability
• Copy Arcbond
• Copy Azor's Gateway // Sanctum of the Sun(either ability)
• And many more...

Final Showdown has the weakest interactions, but I wonder if its 1st mode can create any combos

[tstorm823]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned or Shifting Grift or Return the Favor or Final Showdown?

Shifting Grift can provide an early swap for Zedruu the Greathearted, or work as a huge disruptor swapping six!? pieces around the board. Depending on your meta—and the utility of swapping lands/planeswalkers—it could replace Vedalken Plotter or Role Reversal.

Return the Favor has versatility, and works with nearly every card in the deck, e.g.,

• Copy Mirror of Fate ability
• Copy Arcbond
• Copy Azor's Gateway // Sanctum of the Sun(either ability)
• And many more...

Final Showdown has the weakest interactions, but I wonder if its 1st mode can create any combos

Shifting Grift doesn't target lands. I've played my share of Role Reversal, and it's majority land swapping for me, and then next best use is swapping around commanders, but Grift costs 4 to do that. I suspect it's just not that good. For someone just getting into Zedruu with easier access to newer cards, I'd say go for it, but it's not top of the swap list.

Return the Favor combos: Eye of the Storm, cast any instant or sorcery that can generate mana, triggering Eye, cast Return the Favor in response to the trigger. Eye exiles Return the Favor, which can copy the first eye trigger which casts both spells which can copy the first eye trigger again, and the spell that makes mana pays for the 1 to for Return the Favor each time... I can't play Return the Favor unless I either cut Eye of the Storm or play none of Turnabout, Time Spiral, Catch // Release, Replication Technique, Jeska's Will... you get the idea.

[ihatemaryfisher]

Return the Favor combos: Eye of the Storm, cast any instant or sorcery that can generate mana, triggering Eye, cast Return the Favor in response to the trigger. Eye exiles Return the Favor, which can copy the first eye trigger which casts both spells which can copy the first eye trigger again, and the spell that makes mana pays for the 1 to for Return the Favor each time...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this is a 3-card infinite mana combo? Similarly to Bonus Round +Turnabout +Narset's Reversal, you still need a 4th card to win... I haven't run Eye of the Storm in a while, so I don't know.

Anyways, copying opponents' activated and triggered abilities is vary rare. I like using my opponents' cards as combo pieces, so this opens up a lot of interesting lines.

[Sefir]

Return the Favor combos: Eye of the Storm, cast any instant or sorcery that can generate mana, triggering Eye, cast Return the Favor in response to the trigger. Eye exiles Return the Favor, which can copy the first eye trigger which casts both spells which can copy the first eye trigger again, and the spell that makes mana pays for the 1 to for Return the Favor each time...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this is a 3-card infinite mana combo? Similarly to Bonus Round +Turnabout +Narset's Reversal, you still need a 4th card to win... I haven't run Eye of the Storm in a while, so I don't know.

It is not just Turnabout.
For example, Eye+Return the Favor+Time Spiral or Jeska's Will resolves in an infinite, since both TS and JW both create mana AND give extra cards. While they do not work as an infinite with Bonus Round+Narset's Reversal (not without Turnabout anyways), since Bonus+Reversal+Time Spiral will result in the original TIme Spiral getting shuffled in the library, while Bonus+Reversal+Jeska's Will at some point will not work, since Jeska's Will creates only R mana, while Narset's Reversal needs a constant 2U to getting cast again and again.

[Sefir]

In other news, many MH3 spoilers around and the cute doggo Phelia, Exuberant Shepherd is the one I am mostly excited about. Low cmc legend, in monowhite, with excellent synergy with things like Parallax Wave, Cavalier of Dawn, any PW, etc, it can flicker stuff we donated if we want them back (Hi Gilded Drake!). Also, its a cute doggo. I know we had the option of Venser, the Sojourner for that effect, but the cmc difference is simply huge.

Unfortunately, after a little more playtesting, as long as I run Wormfang Manta and Mirage Mirror (now Vesuvan Shapeshifter too), ANY repeatable flickering effect will result in a 3-card combo in my list. Goodbye sweet doggo. I will try to find you a spot in another deck of mine. While Displacer Kitten usually also leads to that, technically there is always an extremely small chance that I will remain with 0 noncreature cards in hand to cast so that the extra turns stop. For the moment, Kitty stays, mostly because it triggers too many unique combos, but I am also pondering a possible removal of the Kitty. After the removal of Yorion, I am looking for other flickering effects.

As far as the hunt for more faced down creatures, Vasuvan Shapeshifter has been great. Excellent clone effect, that it can't be responded to, great synergy with my flying fish and it can also copy Coveted Falcon to trigger its face up more times. In fact, VS changed a bit my perspective about morph (morph, megamorph, manifest, disguise..... I will call all of them morphs to save time!). I was thinking that I should look for more interesting creatures with morph, but really, the "when it turns face up it does X" was something I didnt really care about!! I was looking more to how their static abilities or their general activated abilities can find interactions, like the sacrifice effect of a Blistering Firecat or the infinite tap/untap triggers of a Aphetto Alchemist. I was not looking at the face up trigger, since, with few exceptions (did you knew Mischievous Quanar goes infinite with Turnabout on its own?) this is a one-time deal. With Vesuvan Shapeshifter though, I can do it each turn.

Combine all the above: Enter Unyielding Gatekeeper. He is cheap. He is a morph creature, with a flickering effect, or a removal effect for my opponents stuff if I choose to. It can be done EVERY turn if he gets copied by Vesuvan Shapeshifter and yes, there is a 4-card infinite with Wormfang Manta+Mirage Mirror+Vesuvan Shapeshifter+Unyielding Gatekeeper. And ofc he is a small Loxodon, which is a bit cute on its own. Mind you, Gatekeeper doesnt flicker the permanent back under its owner's control, so stolen stuff can be flickered as well if I wish to (though I am not so much for stealing these days). I am looking through more interactions that the Gatekeeper might have in my deck other than the obvious flickering of stuff like Parallax Wave or my PWs but so far no other 4-card combos. I really want to test him though.

I dont know if I will end up keeping that small morph package, but so far it has been a very fun addition to the deck.

EDIT: I am very happy to finally discover in my list a 4-card combo that includes Relic of Legends, and it involves Rootha, Mercurial Artist, a flash enabler and Jeska's Will.