Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

[pokken]

What about Mana Crypt, Sol Ring, Mox Diamond, Chrome Mox and stuff like this ?

I will probably cut them all. I think Varina just needs to lands every turn and it's enough. As soon as we play a land each and every turn we are fine because we will go of with an altar or a big mana land like Crypt or Nykthos. It's better to make room for synergistics cards and land tutor rather than play rocks producing colorless or moxes that ask for another card.

But I guess the feeling is the same for almost everyone here ?

I have a lot of thoughts on this. :D

Fundamentally my opinion is that you only want to play Mana Crypt (or Ancient Tomb, Sol Ring) if you can accelerate either raw card advantage spells or signets, or both.

If these are your gameplan then you will need card advantage sources other than Varina to fix your mana, because casting 1UWB on turn 4 is fairly difficult as is.

And if your gameplan is to cast a bunch of non-zombie card advantage and ramp spells, you might be playing the wrong commander. Playing a bunch of Rhystic Study effects to fix your hand before casting Varina, Lich Queen will make your deck diluted.

I'll just to come out and say it, if your Varina deck wants to Demonic Tutor for Rhystic Study then you bore me :D copies of Tymna the Weaver are cheap now you don't have to slum it with us :D

the only rock I am on these days is Springleaf Drum and that includes cutting Sol Ring. It just...doesn't really help me most of the time.

re: the colored card disadvantage rocks, Mox Diamond // Chrome Mox

I don't play them because they make keeping hands awkward. They are likely going to up your win rate, but sap your fun and make for more flameouts where you miss drawing a land and die.

A core principle I build decks by is to minimize nongames, and that is definitely a personal bias against explosive risky gameplans like card disadvantage rocks.


YMMV etc etc :D

--

I will say I think there is a Varina, Lich Queen deck that goes super hard on her ability, playing Training Grounds and similar, and that deck almost surely wants Mana Crypt and the whole rock package.

Filling your yard with random spells and then making chains of zombies that then fill the yard to make more zombies, I think that's a deck.

But I have never seen anyone build that deck.

[pzbw7z]

What about Mana Crypt, Sol Ring, Mox Diamond, Chrome Mox and stuff like this ?

I will probably cut them all. I think Varina just needs to lands every turn and it's enough. As soon as we play a land each and every turn we are fine because we will go of with an altar or a big mana land like Crypt or Nykthos. It's better to make room for synergistics cards and land tutor rather than play rocks producing colorless or moxes that ask for another card.

But I guess the feeling is the same for almost everyone here ?

It depends on what you're trying to do. Zombie Tribal is casual almost by definition, so fast mana is not often seen in Zombie decks. But if you want to go hard, you've got to have fast mana and that means rocks and rituals. It might be a waste of time doing that with Zombies, as there are just better ways to do it, but I'm trying it for a while just for fun.

I don't have a Mox Diamond or a Lions-Eye Diamond, but both would be in the list if I did.

The new list has been tried out in two games. It won one on about turn five, the other took a while as there was some unfriendly interaction and comboing through Blind Obedience is not the easiest thing to do.

[toctheyounger]

Generally, I agree with @pokken here. There's very few mana positive rocks we want to hit, to the point where even Sol Ring is less helpful to us. I think if you're wanting the best rocks you can include, you want Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond, maybe Lotus Petal and that's honestly about it. We don't need stacks of mana, and we don't need to strip our hand to use them.

What I think would really give the deck a shot in the arm would be something like Malcolm, Keen-Eyed Navigator but with zombie typal instead of pirate. I don't see it happening any time soon, but for all intents and purposes this is a farm deck, and I don't see fast rocks winning us games turns earlier. Rituals, maybe, sure. I think Dark Ritual, Culling the Weak, Cabal Ritual probably all give us the speed we need, but otherwise I think this deck wants to grind, it's not a turbo build by any stretch. We're here for a midrange grind that finds a window to win.

[pokken]

Generally, I agree with @pokken here. There's very few mana positive rocks we want to hit, to the point where even Sol Ring is less helpful to us. I think if you're wanting the best rocks you can include, you want Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond, maybe Lotus Petal and that's honestly about it. We don't need stacks of mana, and we don't need to strip our hand to use them.

What I think would really give the deck a shot in the arm would be something like Malcolm, Keen-Eyed Navigator but with zombie typal instead of pirate. I don't see it happening any time soon, but for all intents and purposes this is a farm deck, and I don't see fast rocks winning us games turns earlier. Rituals, maybe, sure. I think Dark Ritual, Culling the Weak, Cabal Ritual probably all give us the speed we need, but otherwise I think this deck wants to grind, it's not a turbo build by any stretch. We're here for a midrange grind that finds a window to win.

we got Phyrexian Altar and Ashnod's Altar ;D

man the number of times I have absolutely dominated with just a value Ashnod's Altar is unreal. sac your board for a bajillions mana, activate crypt of agadeem while all the bros are in the bin, go nuts.

it does make me give serious thinking to Pitiless Plunderer.

And man I should probly put Enlightened Tutor back in

[Reya]

I agree with you all. I will cut that useless Mana Crypt

Maybe I can give a chance to Mox Diamond… maybe.

[pzbw7z]

I agree with you all. I will cut that useless Mana Crypt

Maybe I can give a chance to Mox Diamond… maybe.

You can send that useless Mana Crypt to me. I have a use for it.

[Rframpt]

I did use to have Varina with a standard package of mana producing artifacts. It was only when I joined the forum here that my eyes opened for the play pattern of cheaper creatures in the deck to make it so you have a decent amount of attackers for turn four, when Varina should hit the field and we can start dumpstering the cards we don't need from our hand into the yard.

I think my deck differs slightly as I run more creatures in the list, which gives me a slightly wider spread of creatures, as Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant and Mikaeus, the Unhallowed are my top end. I have, however, been thinking of cutting Mikaeus, the Unhallowed from the deck to add a cheaper zombie to the list. I have also gotten a lot of good mileage from Bone Miser. Getting some extra bodies on the field in case of a crack back have been so good, especially with Noxious Ghoul.

Tocasia's Welcome have been pretty nice, especially with Varina's ability to create bodies. Not nearly as much a kill on sight as Kindred Discovery which I appreciate. Also easier to cast, and get back as a three mana spell.

[pokken]

I have also gotten a lot of good mileage from Bone Miser.

This is one that's actually on my list because I kind of want to add another discard outlet to support Lazotep Chancellor (who is really, really good) -- so I feel like having another guy who can single handedly drive the discard strategy bananas would be good.

It's a hair expensive manawise for me but I might be able to make room.

[Rframpt]

I have also gotten a lot of good mileage from Bone Miser.

This is one that's actually on my list because I kind of want to add another discard outlet to support Lazotep Chancellor (who is really, really good) -- so I feel like having another guy who can single handedly drive the discard strategy bananas would be good.

It's a hair expensive manawise for me but I might be able to make room.

Bone Miser have been very good in combination with Lazotep Chancellor. Discard a land get two mana to immediately use for Chancellor's ability. Miser might also be good as you run Dread Return? Getting some easy bodies to sacrifice for the flashback. Or for Miser to be returned by Dread Return.

[Reya]

I run Dread Return and it's always phenomenal.

I'm still curious. How does this card is so phenomenal for you ? Can you explain me in which scenario it shines so much ?

[pokken]

I run Dread Return and it's always phenomenal.

I'm still curious. How does this card is so phenomenal for you ? Can you explain me in which scenario it shines so much ?

Generally used to reanimate a combo piece for free. You can entomb it or intuition it (and they can't really put it in your hand since it becomes more efficient to cast it then flash it back for two combo pieces for 2bb)

Because by the stage of the game we're casting dread return we only Care about having combo pieces left, and you can bank "mana" in the form of varinas ability, it is basically always free.

The most common line with dread return is to pitch it to Varina then sacrifice Varina and whatever else to reanimate a combo piece for free and then win. So it's free reanimate that nets you a card.

You can chuck gravecrawler, corpse knight and dread return from an empty hand and win.

It works in intuition packages to force the final combo piece into hand as well for less mana than sevinnes rec - wayward servant plus corpse knight plus dread return is 2 mana vs sevinnes at 3.

There are of course situations where it is worse reanimate :D but there are also times it puts three dudes in your yard for crypt of agadeem and you return a repository skaab for living death combo

The dur dur use for it is to double Gary (requires a sac outlet tho)


Mana and card efficiency and general cuteness

[Reya]

You convinced me to give another try to Dread Return. I just found a foil old design one for a cheap 0,3$ 🤩

[pokken]

You convinced me to give another try to Dread Return. I just found a foil old design one for a cheap 0,3$ 🤩

man this new era of easily available old bordered foils is awesome :D I love them. Getting an old bordered foil Sevinne's Reclamation for Ephara was realllly nice.

I will say that it is distinctly possible Reanimate is the better overall card. I just have a really soft spot for 1) free stuff and 2) stuff that strongly synergizes with Varina discards.

[Rframpt]

I will need to find a slot for Dread Return. The though of bringing Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant with Dread return to then wipe everything of the field, is where I am at when it comes to a control finish. I have done it with Necromancy which casting it instant speed feels very good.

I also like the idea of using Entomb to put Dread Return into the yard to then cast it immediately from the yard, reanimating anything that is need at the time. Having a card that can be played from the yard like Dread Return & Sevinne's Reclamation is incredibly nice and makes it easier to decide on how you want your hand sculpted. Which is also why I like having Rite of Oblivion in my list as well

[Reya]

You convinced me to give another try to Dread Return. I just found a foil old design one for a cheap 0,3$ 🤩

man this new era of easily available old bordered foils is awesome :D I love them. Getting an old bordered foil Sevinne's Reclamation for Ephara was realllly nice.

I will say that it is distinctly possible Reanimate is the better overall card. I just have a really soft spot for 1) free stuff and 2) stuff that strongly synergizes with Varina discards.

Yeah I'm a big fan of old design foil. Unfortunately foil old design in their original version are way too much expensive. I'm glad we can have their recent remastered version

[Rframpt]

You convinced me to give another try to Dread Return. I just found a foil old design one for a cheap 0,3$ 🤩

man this new era of easily available old bordered foils is awesome :D I love them. Getting an old bordered foil Sevinne's Reclamation for Ephara was realllly nice.

I will say that it is distinctly possible Reanimate is the better overall card. I just have a really soft spot for 1) free stuff and 2) stuff that strongly synergizes with Varina discards.

Yeah I'm a big fan of old design foil. Unfortunately foil old design in their original version are way too much expensive. I'm glad we can have their recent remastered version

Yeah Unfortunately original printings of foils are very expensive as they are rare due to lower available prints.

And they are just incredible to look at

[plaganegra]

Geralf, the fleshwright seems good

[Rframpt]

Geralf, the fleshwright seems good

I do love both Gisa and Geralf as the necromancers of innastrad. This Geralf seems very cool. Has the right cmc as a 3 mana cost creature, but I still just want it as zombie for all of the tribal component I have in my deck

[pokken]

Not being a zombie is :fart noise: for me.

[Rframpt]

.it might be a deck where I don't Noxious Ghoul. And in my Varina deck tribal is the theme so it is a no go for me

[toctheyounger]

I actually think it could get pretty gross. I don't like that it's not on tribe, but it's gonna make our guys enormous, and it's pretty easy to use it to vomit out an army with. Will it make it to the list? I don't know. Does it combo? Not outside of some convoluted altar of dementia reanimation loop. Still it could be worthy. Might be one to test.

[pokken]

I actually think it could get pretty gross. I don't like that it's not on tribe, but it's gonna make our guys enormous, and it's pretty easy to use it to vomit out an army with. Will it make it to the list? I don't know. Does it combo? Not outside of some convoluted altar of dementia reanimation loop. Still it could be worthy. Might be one to test.

I mean it combos infinitely with gravecrawler and phyrexian altar as just needs a turn off to win unfortunately (since infinite non hasted dudes and mana)

[toctheyounger]

I actually think it could get pretty gross. I don't like that it's not on tribe, but it's gonna make our guys enormous, and it's pretty easy to use it to vomit out an army with. Will it make it to the list? I don't know. Does it combo? Not outside of some convoluted altar of dementia reanimation loop. Still it could be worthy. Might be one to test.

Well yeah, it's just....surviving a turn cycle is not where you wanna be for a death loop tbh.
I mean it combos infinitely with gravecrawler and phyrexian altar as just needs a turn off to win unfortunately (since infinite non hasted dudes and mana)

[pzbw7z]

I actually think it could get pretty gross. I don't like that it's not on tribe, but it's gonna make our guys enormous, and it's pretty easy to use it to vomit out an army with. Will it make it to the list? I don't know. Does it combo? Not outside of some convoluted altar of dementia reanimation loop. Still it could be worthy. Might be one to test.

I mean it combos infinitely with gravecrawler and phyrexian altar as just needs a turn off to win unfortunately (since infinite non hasted dudes and mana)

If only there were extra-turn spells in our colors - oh, wait.

It would also just win with Blasting Station or Altar of Dementia. It doesn't matter that an aristocrat would do the trick too, since 'Crawler and Phyrexian Altar win without that stuff.

None of this appeals to me, but it'd be something different.

[plaganegra]

New Geralf is a combo enabler with plenty of aggro upside at 3cmc. It has value without the presence of a combo. If necroduality were 3cmc would you consider it? That's kind of how I see this new tool.

Its def not a zombie though. Doesnt trigger Varina.

Awkward, but powerul card. I might try it out just to see it in action. Probably has no place on many Varina lists, especially optimized ones.

Gisa & Geralf was a beloved commander when I played it. Love that they keep those two in the story cycle. Wish they would both just die already and become zombies. Gisa should kill her brother and reanimate him next time.