Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

[silversnakes]

Here's my list its pretty much the same as your lists. I don't know if dance of the manse is worth the slot though thinking about mirrorweave. Since the success a few of you have had with it. https://archidekt.com/decks/163393#Vari ... n)_(Esper)

[toctheyounger]

Oh damn! I hadn't seen the price of Nykthos lately. I purchased one maybe a year ago for 7 USD and now it's basically tripled. Holy crap!! Well, I think I'll hold off until the price inevitably falls back to say less than 10 USD. In the meantime, I plan to pay attention to my black devotion levels per turn in the next few games I play to see, in general, how much it could benefit me and by what turn. That'll at least give me a better sense of whether it'll be worth adding. OR...I could just proxy it for a time? Either way, I'll find out soon enough too. Good luck with your Nykthos experience and seriously, thanks again!!

Yeah, I think if there was a reprint in Theros 2 we'd have seen a drop, but it's pretty up there at the moment. By comparison, Nyx Lotus is just a pale comparison to my mind. ETB tapped, being an artifact and thus easier to ping and coming down same turn as Varina ought to makes it a hard rock to justify.

Here's my list its pretty much the same as your lists. I don't know if dance of the manse is worth the slot though thinking about mirrorweave. Since the success a few of you have had with it. https://archidekt.com/decks/163393#Vari ... n)_(Esper)

I can see why you miss Manse in your list. There's less in your list in terms of rocks and enchantments that are likely to bite removal. In my experience, Alhammarret's Archive gets KOS'd, then there's Eldrazi Monument which can end it's own life, Mystic Remora, and Tombstone Stairwell. They're all pretty crucial pieces for me in that if I can keep them in I stand a good chance of victory. The cumulative upkeep enchantments in particular are really advantageous, and Stairwell if I can get back there's a good chance I can end the game.

Other than that it's there purely for the ability to grab back stuff that I've looted away rather than what's been removed from the board. It's just nice to be able to grab control pieces back when I need them rather than have to hold onto them when I'm drawing into stuff I need more at the time. It's not ideal, for sure - if it were a similar effect on a zombie I'd for sure run that instead, but insurance for our rocks and game-winning pieces is worth having, so no regrets from my end.

How have you found Tortured Existence and Oversold Cemetery? They seem like they'd be good for things like God-Eternal Oketra which need castings to trigger tokens, but otherwise I wonder if there's enough redundancy with stuff like Living Death, Zombie Apocalypse and Patriarch's Bidding that they might be a little redundant.

Also wondering what your experience has been with Winds of Abandon? I'm reluctant to ramp my opponents, but there's no denying it's a big tempo swing, so it could be worth considering (it is disappointing though that you can't exile your own zombies for lands, which makes me wonder if Settle the Wreckage would be worth considering - attack, respond with exile, ramp, shuffle, attack trigger resolves, profit).

[silversnakes]

Tortured Existence and Oversold Cemetery have actually pulled there weight and have been pretty effective I'll say being able to get back a pinger or a Fleshbag Marauder can really help. I wanted a bit different creature recursion since I don't own any biddings and I feel like they have done well especially with the low curve that we run. Now about Winds of Abandon I haven't really used it or needed its mainly there as a way to deal with troublesome things that I can't target mostly eldrazi titan's and the like. It could be a path of exile but, I like the flexibility it can provide by just removing everything if need be. I realize that it can ramp the whole table but, it can also serve as a way for us to win the game. I think the card is pretty decent its a Cyclonic Rift in white that's sorcery speed.

[toctheyounger]

Tortured Existence and Oversold Cemetery have actually pulled there weight and have been pretty effective I'll say being able to get back a pinger or a Fleshbag Marauder can really help. I wanted a bit different creature recursion since I don't own any biddings and I feel like they have done well especially with the low curve that we run.

Yeah totally, they're low cost and decent efficiency. I like that Existence allows you to sculpt your graveyard too, that's good value.

Winds of Abandon - I don't know about it personally. I have plenty of spot removal myself, and I run Cyclonic Rift too, so I have a feeling it'd be surplus to requirements in my build. I think ultimately it's a meta call in that some decks will still suffer from mass exile, where some will thrive with mass ramp. Mileage will vary.

[toctheyounger]

Finally got a game in just now, work's (touch wood) calmed down a little and had some spare time today.

Nothing huge to report other than that I won. 4 way game between Chulane, Teller of Tales, Ben-Ben, Akki Hermit, Lord of Tresserhorn and myself. Ben-ben dropped out early, Chulane came super close to comboing out with Yisan, the Wanderer Bard, Intruder Alarm and Alluren, and Lord came super close to Voltron win with Phyresis and Sword of Feast and Famine.

I managed to Cyclonic Rift the Lord which dropped Phyresis into the yard, and Chulane got some of his stuff Chaos Warp/Snapcaster Mageed which held him off just long enough. I did fine, although didn't quite have enough board presence to finish everyone off at once. I had Sidisi, Undead Vizier about, and at some point Chulane bounced him, which allowed me to recast and search for Living Death. I cast it, reanimating a few, including Sidisi again as well as 2-3 others. I then just swung in to maul the board down, and finished off the last guy with a Wayward Servant trigger from Varina's ability. Easy peasy.

Not really much of note to say about the game other than that it was pretty fun and everyone had a good time. The deck did just fine, despite not having all of the makings of leaning heavily into one strategy or another in particularly. But that's ok, that's what turning sideways is for right? We have to do it anyway.

In other news, I'm sort of rethinking Winds of Abandon. I talked it over with WizardMN and pokken on Wizard's Varina thread. I'm not 100% sold on it, as I think getting timing of casting the spell right is pretty crucial to making it pop, but it sounds like the momentum change it provides is really valuable.

[toctheyounger]

Ikoria - Lair of Behemoths Set Review

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A new set, a new precon set, and more radio silence from me. Now weeks away from being a dad, the lockdown in New Zealand is real, and it's been a while since I've had anything to add. Life has been crazy. Nonetheless, Wizards has literally inundated us with new options, so let's pore over them.

I'm not overly holding my breath, knowing the theme of Ikoria doesn't involve zombies, but you never know.

Artifacts/Colorless/Lands

• Bonders' Enclave - I'm gonna pass, but that's purely because I don't struggle for draw overly. This is likely to be used most of the time with our tribal pump effects and having our commander in play, so it could be great. I'd just prefer to make sure I can hit my colours, and this doesn't do that.
• The Ozolith - I'm sure it wouldn't take too much squinting to combo out with this, Mikaeus the Unhallowed and aristocrats. I'm gonna pass, but if combo is your thing, get on it.

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White

<insert tumbleweed gif>


Yeah, I have nothing here. The non-creature spells here are all limited format based, I don't see any value to us.

Blue

• Keep Safe - It's hilarious how relevant this card is post CoVid-19. Not entirely unuseful, the amount of times I've seen Alhammarret's Archive get pinged it could help me out.
• Ominous Seas - We could make this do some work for us. Instant-speed octopi are pretty cool, that's decent value. I don't know how I feel about breaking theme. It's fine, probably.

Black

• Bastion of Remembrance - Really nice card. Counts for tokens, so if you're wanting this effect, it's a very solid add. It isn't a zombie obviously, so it's not an immediate add for me. I guess if I thought of adding it in it'd replace Diregraf Captain.
• Extinction Event - Very much worth considering. Exile is super nice when you're looking at mass reanimation, so this would be worth considering.
• Heartless Act - Really good targeted removal. Black has a new top of the pile for spot removal.

Multicolored

• Dire Tactics - This trumps Despark, to my mind. Does it trump Anguished Unmaking? Absolutely not, but it's usable here nonetheless. We have the lifegain to mitigate the inevitable downside.

Again, not much for us this set. Not unsurprising, but nonetheless a little disappointing. Onwards to Commander 2020!

Commander 2020 Set Review

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I don't really know what to think of most of the precons. Most of them really don't catch my eye overly. I'm liking the look of Tayam, Luminous Enigma, but again, not expecting lots in the way of decent additions here.

Artifacts/Colorless/Lands

• Bonder's Ornament - Enters untapped, but later than I'd like. I'm not interested in the possibility of other folk drawing cards, so it's a no from me.
• Manascape Refractor - Really cool card. Looking at the lands I run, I can't see any I'm desperate to copy, aside from maybe Nykthos, so this is a really meta dependent add. Do you see Coffers or Cradle? Get at it. Maze of Ith and Dust Bowl? Get at it. My meta is pretty interchangeable, so I won't be adding this, purely because I can't bank on it's value.
• Nesting Grounds - This could do nice stuff. If you run Noosegraf Mob it'll make sure you're always spawning zombies, other than that it'll make sure your one creature you definitely don't want going away doesn't get nerfed while Mikaeus, the Unhallowed is in play. Those are probably niche enough interactions that I don't see the need to run it myself, but it's still nifty.

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White

• Dismantling Wave - It's decent, but my thoughts are that a lot of the control this deck has comes from rocks and enchantments, so most of the time it's spot removal, even if it does get cute with Archfiend of Ifnir.
• Flawless Maneuver - The freebie cards are all great. I don't see this one being really necessary though. We don't ever really care if our stuff dies, so why bother?

Blue

• Crystalline Resonance - I'd love it if this was worded with discard instead of cycle, but what can you do?
• Fierce Guardianship - Obviously strong blue counterspell is obviously strong. I'm not going to bother picking it up purely for price. This is going to be hefty.
• Tidal Barracuda - I mention this purely because it's a hilariously well designed card that would be lots of fun to play. Not something I want here, but cool nonetheless.

Black

• Deadly Rollick - Another contender for top of the pile black spot removal. Probably don't need it here though.
• Netherborn Altar - A cool card, and pretty clever design. Do we need it? Probably not.
• Species Specialist - It's entirely possible to add this purely to fuel some disgusting, ridiculous draw. If you're worried about Kindred Discovery being non-optional draw, this fella has a may clause.

Multicolored

Literally nothing new in our colours. To be expected, but still...sad panda.

Slim pickings all around really. Most of the mechanics going this set either don't favour us or are in the wrong colours (Jeskai cycling) so we dip out quite a bit this set.

Let me know if you have thoughts about any of these, or if you think there's something I've missed!

[Kvothe]

I'm thinking that the White and Blue free spells could be valuable. With this deck I really want to tap out on turn 3/4 cast Varina and loot 2-3 times, and it really hurts to immediately lose her without generating any value.
But my playstyle is definitely different than yours so I could see it not being as relevant in your list.

[toctheyounger]

Yeah, I agree. I'm just not holding out any hope of the free blue spell being ANY sort of reasonable price. It's gonna be costly. I definitely would prefer the blue over white, I just think it's more versatile. But yes, either would be quite helpful in the right place.

[toctheyounger]

A quick update, and one I've already talked about a few weeks back:

• Winds of Abandon

• Citywide Bust

Citywide Bust has always been iffy. It hits my commander, which is frustrating for a card that is meant to give the board a buzz-cut. I guess it doesn't help having lords in the pack too, so it wasn't always a card I wanted to cast.

I do have reservations about Winds of Abandon too, for obvious reasons; I don't wanna ramp anyone. That being said, I want to pull some text over from @WizardMN's thread for consideration.

quote from pokken

What's funny is we all had the same reservations about winds of abandon in my thread. I am something like 15/1 in games I have resolved an overloaded winds. I can't remember the loss but I feel like there was one. By the stage of the game you're resolving it people have generally overcommitted to the board, and usually have more than enough mana -- they're just constrained by cards, and often specific cards. Decks only have so many big cards these days since everyone's pushing for efficiency.

So many games develop into these board stalls where I can't win but no one else can either; winds breaks board stalls and also is a not horrible single targeted removal spell when you need it.

Exiling is good. And it makes a huge difference when you exile a bunch of dangerous threats forever. Lots and lots of decks rely on recursion to recover from board wipes and Winds shutting that off is very meaningful.

The fear I had was that I would wind up having to use it defensively, but what it does is it frees me to commit harder to the board when I know I have it.

So in light of this, I had a game the other day. Like I just (pinching fingers) managed to squeeze one into the day. It generally went well, except for facing down Golos, Tireless Pilgrim. He basically ramped hard, Insidious Dreams'ed a ton of Eldrazis to his topdeck and cast them for free. Which is fine, it's a valid play and I wasn't salty, but I had Citywide Bust in hand which wouldn't have helped me a jot, whereas Winds of Abandon potentially could have.

[yeti1069]

Just had a fantastic game running my Varina deck where I used Apprentice Necromancer to recur Rot Hulk each turn, reanimating the Apprentice +2 more zombies...at instant speed at the end of the last opponents' turn before mine so they are can attack. In particular, this was especially high value because one opponent was playing The Mimeoplasm and I was able to empty my yard in response to his cast to limit targets.

[toctheyounger]

Just had a fantastic game running my Varina deck where I used Apprentice Necromancer to recur Rot Hulk each turn, reanimating the Apprentice +2 more zombies...at instant speed at the end of the last opponents' turn before mine so they are can attack. In particular, this was especially high value because one opponent was playing The Mimeoplasm and I was able to empty my yard in response to his cast to limit targets.

That's a nice juicy play! I'm looking to get a couple of games in with the queen in the next few days. workload dependent. It's been a busy couple of weeks but I'm now in a spot where I may actually get to sling some cards instead of just talk about it. Hopefully I'll even have some experiences memorable enough to report here, so watch this space!

edit:
I did manage to get some gameplay in today. Had a 4way against Yarok, the Desecrated, Ezuri, Claw of Progress and Kenrith, the Returned King. Probably the most insane start I've had in a long time. T1 I hit Sol Ring, Talisman of Hierarchy and Cryptbreaker. Second turn, Kenrith drops Collective Voyage and we all ramp 8. Then I get in Kindred Discovery, the Queen, and draw myself into Mikaeus, the Unhallowed and Wayward Servant. Like, how damn good?? There were a couple of threats on board, but I also drew into Kindred Dominance for the wipe, so I wasn't worried.

At any rate, before my next turn, my 4-week old son needed a nappy change, and mid change spat up on himself forcing a complete redress. By the time I got back to my desk the game had progressed without me. Sigh.

[toctheyounger]

So, I've had a couple of games in in the last week, and had various levels of success. The queen is still doing fine for synergy and momentum but have yet to have any really stunning plays. I have considered a couple of cards for inclusion/removal, and I'm super excited for the upcoming Core Set. There's not a ton of stuff that will be great here, but bare minimum I'm very interested in a copy of Teferi's Ageless Insight, and Peer into the Abyss - holy crap that card is nuts for draw. I'm especially looking forward to casting it when I DON'T have a max hand size modifier or when I have Bone Miser/Zombie Infestation/Archfiend of Ifnir in play. It's going to be obscenely good, and potentially represents a significant win condition in terms of stacking the yard for mass reanimation and ETB triggers, a great way to grab some answers, it's really just going to be insane.

In terms of existing cards, I'm tossing up adding in Tolarian Winds, to substitute probably Windfall. Frankly I don't care about wheeling other players, I want to fill my yard, and in terms of spending the mana to refill my hand I'd prefer it to be cheaper and this being instant speed is really nice; it helps me hold up mana for dropping stuff on my turn.

Other than that, I now have a copy of Arcane Signet that'll drop in here once I have time to do some twiddling. I'm guessing it'll replace Azorius Signet, but I will have a closer look in coming days and see what works best.

I've also been really looking at Sword of the Animist as a seriously good quality equipment in terms of non-green ramp; I really, really want a copy for my Glissa, the Traitor build, and I've been toying with whether it would be beneficial here too. The deck is generally fairly happy to toss lands it digs into for exile later on, but it would be nice to be able to ramp a little more directly into play, and it's been reprinted in Mystery Booster for cheap too, so I potentially could pick it up cheaply.

[toctheyounger]

And apparently I'm early for bomb releases for us. How freaking good is Liliana's Standard Bearer? Nuts with a sacrifice engine, Living Death, board wipes, and no life loss. The card is fire. and it can get in here ASAP.

[yeti1069]

SPLOOGE!!!!

That's going in Varina, Marchesa, Meren, Teysa... wow!

[toctheyounger]

Best core set ever.

[WizardMN]

Liliana's Standard Bearer easily slots into Queen Marchesa and Varina for me. Because of her 3 power, she might even make it into Sygg, River Cutthroat. I will have to give her a good look for Karador as well. Overall. this is a solid card.

I agree: this Core Set is shaping up to be one of the best.

[RedCheese]

Standard Bearer does look good indeed

What about Silversmote Ghoul ? Might be abit limiting but looks interesting aswell

[WizardMN]

My main issue with the Ghoul is that the most consistent way of gaining 3 life on our turn is swinging with 3 zombies with Varina on board. Which also lets us loot for 3 cards. So, the draw a card option becomes a little less useful in that regard since we just drew 3 to even get it back.

Now, that is not to say it doesn't have a use. If we discarded it as one of our 3 loots, we just got a free card on board (though, can't be used as a blocker) which gets us more cards later from attacking and again by sacrificing. It allows for some interesting lines though to help refill our hand when Varina isn't on board.

I would likely not include it though. The list toctheyounger has is likely even tighter than my list but I don't think there is a good card to cut for something that is "just" a free creature/draw card when so many other things give us cards. Like the new Teferi's Ageless Insight. 1 mana more (4 more if you expect to get the Ghoul for free I guess) and it works astoundingly well with Varina's draw trigger.

[toctheyounger]

Yep, I pretty much agree here. It's incremental draw, which isn't nothing but it's still not enough to compete with some of the draw we do have: Graveborn Muse, our commander, and Alhammarret's Archive all compete for a similar space on the curve and far excel, as does Teferi's Ageless Insight which is an easy add too.

At an even lower point on the curve is Mystic Remora and Cryptbreaker, the latter of which is pretty great. It can use itself (and any other zombies) the turn they enter, so it's super quick, it curves beautifully, and it fuels itself with its first ability. By comparison, Silversmote Ghoul is just too slow.

[toctheyounger]

Core Set 2021 Set Review

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Well, we have a core set for the year. And all things considered it's a really great set. There's some fantastic new cards, some great reprints, and a couple of cards I'm very excited to get my hands on, specifically for the Queen. Let's get into it. I won't go over every card in the set, just the highlights and what I think pertains to this deck most.

Artifacts/Colorless/Lands

• Chromatic Orrery - Even in a tricolour deck this is overpriced in every aspect, as cool as it is. You're really wanting all 5 to get the most from this, which puts it in Jodah, Archmage Eternal, Golos, Tireless Pilgrim, Sisay, Weatherlight Captain territory. I'll pass.
• Mazemind Tome - It's ok. Nice early deck fixing or draw. I won't bother here, but it might see use in other places.

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White

• Angelic Ascension - This is decent removal for standard. It's not Swords to Plowshares or Path to Exile, but it's not half bad either. I think the flying token hurts a little, but not desperately. Nonetheless, I have decent removal so I won't worry about it.
• Basri Ket - This guy is a limited format walker. Still, it...could actually be relatively useful in some aspects. The downtick would create quite a swarm, and there's potential for shenanigans with something like Conspiracy or Arcane Adaptation if you're going the swarm route.
• Idol of Endurance - This is a weird spin on reanimation. It could help avoid grave hate, although without ways of abusing it like untappers and lots of mana, it's probably a bit too slow.
• Nine Lives - A nice fog, although without something like Solemnity or similar it's a slow death. I'd be eternally worried about any sort of Niv-Mizzet, Parun deck taking me out super quick anyway.

Blue

• Discontinuity - Neat upgrade to Time Stop. Could be a nice control option if you feel it's needed.
• Rain of Revelation - Instant speed draw 3 is not bad. The discard is somewhat relevant to us too, it could be a decent budget draw option.
• Sublime Epiphany - Cryptic Command deluxe? I personally think 4uu is a lot to hold up, so I don't know if it'll see as much play as it could.
• Teferi, Master of Time - The new blue walker hotness. Pretty great, all things considered. I won't add it here, but I wouldn't say no to a copy nonetheless.
• Teferi's Ageless Insight - This is a must, for me. Nice redundancy on the part of Alhammarret's Archive that matters to me, I'd love a copy for the deck.

Black

• Caged Zombie - Pretty conditional, so this guy can stay in his cage.
• Demonic Embrace - I guess this could make a nice Voltron option? It's reusable which isn't nothing. I don't think it does enough myself, but I could see it being fun and that's reason enough to give it a whirl.
• Liliana, Waker of the Dead - I already run one version of Lili, so it's worth weighing up whether her new iterations get a look in. In this case, I'm not convinced. Her uptick is a limited trick - granted it can do some things with Archfiend of Ifnir but that's not enough for me. Her downtick is great removal, and we could make good use of it. Her ultimate is great, but probably belongs to a deck that wipes the board more often than I do. So, I think on balance, I'm happier with what I have in Liliana, Untouched by Death.
• Liliana's Standard Bearer - We've already gagged over this once, we know it's a must add. Flash. A low cost 3/1. Burst draw equal to the number of creatures that died. That's the end of Decree of Pain, and that card draws a ton. This is going to be excellent, make no mistake. We can either set up for this with sacrifice, or hold it back and keep swinging to force the board wipe and double down for a huge hand boost. Want, nay, must have.
• Peer into the Abyss - I think this card is absolutely stellar. Like, I want about 4 copies. It'll be stunning here to shred boards with Archfiend of Ifnir, create armies with Zombie Infestation, generate untold value with Bone Miser, set up for huge reanimation spells, and give us massive blood loss with our aristocrats, not to mention what it'll do for Tombstone Stairwell dropping half of my library at once. It's like Ad Nauseam without the risk of cutting yourself too deep. I'll definitely be picking a copy up.
• Silversmote Ghoul - As we've already discussed, this is fine. Not a complete stunner, but reliable enough draw, if a little slow.

Multicolored

• There's nothing to really speak of here.

I'm not gonna lie, the stuff I want from this set I really, really want. There's some serious firepower coming into this deck, with at least 3 inclusions that will each massively accelerate the draw the deck is capable of. And that changes the way I can play. With enough of the right cards in my hand I can end the game in a turn rather than grinding. I'm pretty excited to try the wants in here, I think they will be remarkably good additions.

[Noir]

Love your set write ups! Will definitely be picking up a copy of Teferi's Ageless Insight and Liliana's Standard Bearer

[toctheyounger]

Love your set write ups! Will definitely be picking up a copy of Teferi's Ageless Insight and Liliana's Standard Bearer

Thanks Appreciate the feedback. Nice to know someone's still listening - let me know if there's anything I've missed you like the look of.

[Noir]

Love your set write ups! Will definitely be picking up a copy of Teferi's Ageless Insight and Liliana's Standard Bearer

Thanks Appreciate the feedback. Nice to know someone's still listening - let me know if there's anything I've missed you like the look of.

Nothing I noticed but always know I'm watching this thread haha! I love playing with Varina the most of my decks so I always come here to see what yall are saying about new cards ^-^

[RowanKeltizar]

Yeah, I can't believe how good Liliana's Standard Bearer actually is. I'm glad other people recognize that. I think it should be an auto-include in any black deck running creatures. Triple points if you are in zombie tribal.

I am thinking about picking up a bunch of copies before people realize just how good this thing is. The regular non-foil version is literally under $1 which is unbelievable to me for a rare this powerful.

It is certainly going in my reanimator Jund deck as it is the most efficient creature based draw spell I can think of in the category.

[toctheyounger]

Yeah, I can't believe how good Liliana's Standard Bearer actually is. I'm glad other people recognize that. I think it should be an auto-include in any black deck running creatures. Triple points if you are in zombie tribal.

I am thinking about picking up a bunch of copies before people realize just how good this thing is. The regular non-foil version is literally under $1 which is unbelievable to me for a rare this powerful.

It is certainly going in my reanimator Jund deck as it is the most efficient creature based draw spell I can think of in the category.

Oh yeah, along with the new mega draw black sorcery I'd like 3-4 copies of the zombie. Super sweet that it's a dollar rare, so it shouldn't be too hard to grab.