Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

[toctheyounger]

I do like Get Lost. It's much more of a tempo change than a lot of other removal, most decks can't make use of a tapped Map token right away, and it's quite well costed.

[ElTuberias]

Hey guys how are you using Phyrexian Ghoul? I have found it dissapointing without Rooftop Storm .
I don't like rooftop storm, but maybe I should give it another chance.

On the other side i got a copy of The Meathook Massacre and i love it, very versatile card. And i haven't seen it in your decks.

[pokken]

Hey guys how are you using Phyrexian Ghoul? I have found it dissapointing without Rooftop Storm .
I don't like rooftop storm, but maybe I should give it another chance.

On the other side i got a copy of The Meathook Massacre and i love it, very versatile card. And i haven't seen it in your decks.

My view on the Nantuko Husk // Phyrexian Ghoul cards are that they are there primarily to protect your board from Farewell // Gilded Drake stuff. They also enable a few near-infinite combos but primarily they are there to defend your board. It's particularly strong with Crypt of Agadeem

Fundamentally I believe the deck needs a sufficient number of sacrifice outlets if you're on the Corpse Knight // Living Death et. al. plan to win (especially if you're wanting to finish with an infinite combo like I do, where a particular piece might die to Path to Exile or something). So I run a couple extras to make that bridge.

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Personally The Meathook Massacre is on my list, but I have the one copy I have in another deck. Just haven't gotten around to slotting it in because I was waiting for it to get cheaper :D

I'll be tryin to trade for one on the quick though I think. Appreciate the reminder.

[Rframpt]

Hey guys how are you using Phyrexian Ghoul? I have found it dissapointing without Rooftop Storm .
I don't like rooftop storm, but maybe I should give it another chance.

On the other side i got a copy of The Meathook Massacre and i love it, very versatile card. And i haven't seen it in your decks.

I will say that Phyrexian Ghoul // Nantuko Husk fall into the "keyword crappy" category of zombies. Not particular exciting to run but does enough work for the deck that it isn't an embarrassment to run in the deck. And as Pokken mentioned is there to protect our board from boardwipes that might generate advantages to our opponent casting it or theft effects that can take a key piece of our deck.
I also use Phyrexian Ghoul as a threat when attacking. Sacrificing zombies that will get blocked and die anyways, getting that bit of extra damage

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I do have The Meathook Massacre in my deck, and only lately have gotten use out of it. Very insane card and does allow the deck to speed up the process of the aristo-zombies gameplan of the deck. Sevinne's Reclamation & Court of Ardenvale can also bring it back should we need to get it back from the graveyard. These two cards at least for are incredibly nice to have access to. Court of Ardenvale is very nice as even at its worse it brings cards back to our hand which can be discarded with Varina.

[Rframpt]

I have been having some really great runs with my Varina deck so far. The deck slapped so hard for the last few games I have been playing. Current, goal is to experiment with these cards: Cauldron Haze, Revivify and Tocasia's Welcome, though unfortunately they haven't been drawn so far, and the only one that has have been Cauldron Haze which was nice to same the zombies I had at the time.

And if those cards doesn't work, might be to add some more creatures to get the creature count around 36. But we shall see how the deck will adapt to my meta.

[pzbw7z]

Has anyone adopted the new, Surveil dual lands? My commanders are squabbling over cards and I'm being pressured to make changes to my mana-base and these new lands seem as if they might be worth a thought.

Recently, I sent Cavern of Souls to my Tribal Knight Pioneer deck. It didn't really seem critical for Varina so it seemed reasonable to make that move. In it's place, I added a beat-up old copy of City of Brass I picked up at a nice discount.

Rowan, Scion of War immediately started gripping about this and she has a fair point; Rowan actually wants to pay life for mana. She craves it, in fact. So, I may have to move that there to get Rowan off my back.

Will, Scion of Peace still has a number of poor-quality, tapped dual lands and is constantly harping on me to upgrade. The one thing that I can see that Varina might share to improve Will's mana base is Fabled Passage. It's not a great card, but I think it'd be a step up for Will and no big loss for Varina.

The question is, of course, what to replace these cards with.

The surveil duals just don't really seem quite good enough for me. I've already got three lands that always enter tapped, but they do better things; at least, I like the things they do well enough to use them despite the drawback. I don't thing the surveil lands hit that bar for me.

Two Swamps may very well be the right answer as Land Tax runs out of gas very quickly with only six basic lands available. There really doesn't seem to be much of a downside with adding one or two more Swamps except the possibility of putting off Field of the Dead a turn - or two.

Another Plains might be nice, but I certainly don't want another basic Plains. Another fetch-able Plains-Swamp dual would be quite nice indeed, but a tapped dual is not really what I'm looking for.

Treva's Ruins would be fun, I think. There's perhaps not enough benefit to counter the draw back, but I just have a soft spot for janky old stuff. It could actually get an extra FoD trigger once in a while. Not on the same turn, but one eventually runs out of lands to drop.

Cabal Pit doesn't seem terrible. It's a cool old card but the activated ability may not sufficiently compensate for the drawback.

Anyway, I'm interested in hearing what you think of the surveil duals; am I undervaluing them? Would just one more tapped land be that big of a deal?

[pokken]

Two Swamps may very well be the right answer as Land Tax runs out of gas very quickly with only six basic lands available. There really doesn't seem to be much of a downside with adding one or two more Swamps except the possibility of putting off Field of the Dead a turn - or two.

I have 10 basics in my Varina list (5 swamps, 2 plains, 3 islands).

I have not updated Varina since surveil came out, but I will add the Plains-Swamp for Tithe -- though not sure of my cut yet. maybe Cavern of Souls honestly :D

[pzbw7z]

I have more than once wished for an additional, fetch-able/tithe-able Plains-Swamp, so Shadowy Backstreet is the one I'd use, if I used one. Of course, I pulled Undercity Sewers and Meticulous Archive in the pre-release.

[toctheyounger]

I think they're ok. Surveil is clearly great for us, but entering tapped isn't. They're definitely not going to be a land you want to see in your starting hand, which makes them a value play for Coffers or Field, and a Land Tax drop. I don't know if that's worth it personally. I certainly wouldn't run all three, and I can see the value in playing into Tithe, so maybe the Orzhov iteration would be worth it, but I don't know that I'd go any further than that.

I completely understand the pressure for cards in different decks too. I definitely don't have the depth of fetches I'd like everywhere, I only own one City of Brass, no Caverns at all, and I would love another Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx. I especially regret not picking up Ancient Tombs when the LOTR commanders dropped. They were like half of the usual asking price for about a day.

Also, I've been testing Roaming Throne, and it's definitely been a blast. I don't necessarily know if it's a winmore card like Necroduality was, but it really, really speeds things up. I don't see any reason not to keep it in to be honest.

[pokken]

They're definitely not going to be a land you want to see in your starting hand

I think this is incorrect. They're great as a virtual 1-drop in almost every opening hand sequence. Some of our decks are thinking about playing Diregraf Ghoul for another 1 drop, playing one surveil land splits the difference a little :D

(I don't think I would want more than 1 though? Not sure yet. I run very few tapped lands)

re: Roaming Throne
not being a zombie is the dealbreaker for me. I think the only non-zombie I have left is Weathered Wayfarer who is such a huge source of card advantage and fills in so much of the curve.

[toctheyounger]

They're definitely not going to be a land you want to see in your starting hand

I think this is incorrect. They're great as a virtual 1-drop in almost every opening hand sequence. Some of our decks are thinking about playing Diregraf Ghoul for another 1 drop, playing one surveil land splits the difference a little :D

(I don't think I would want more than 1 though? Not sure yet. I run very few tapped lands)

re: Roaming Throne
not being a zombie is the dealbreaker for me. I think the only non-zombie I have left is Weathered Wayfarer who is such a huge source of card advantage and fills in so much of the curve.

Yeah, I mean I guess. It sets up your next draw, so there is that. I'm gonna wait and see what happens to prices anyway, I'd be happier to see them drop a little.

Throne is a zombie? I don't think we've got anything that relies on the card being a zombie in the library, and it's a zombie once it resolves (or whatever you want it to be).

[pokken]

Throne is a zombie? I don't think we've got anything that relies on the card being a zombie in the library, and it's a zombie once it resolves (or whatever you want it to be).

not being a zombie on the stack causes a lot of issues with stuff like Zombie Apocalypse Patriarch's Bidding and Liliana, Untouched by Death. there're a few I am missing I am sure. Rooftop Storm is one that some people play.

I think it's reasonable to try for sure, but being a 4-drop is another huge issue. I think Repository Skaab is my only one left lol.

[toctheyounger]

Yeah, that's fair. It's only ever going to give you value from play. I think it's easy enough to include and just not play when it's not advantageous, that's where I'm landing at least. I'm not too worried about it's place in the curve, I've gone as low as I can reasonably justify currently. I do have Festerleech to add in, but I can't think of anything else I want to see gone, and it's a good value hit from Beseech the Mirror if that ever comes up.

[pzbw7z]

Roaming Throne with Sidisi, Undead Vizier is just bonkers. Tutoring for four cards should get you there.

[pzbw7z]

Some shout outs are in order after a nice win against Jodah, the Unifier and, well, two other decks which weren't doing much.

Graveborn Muse drew a load of cards and Songs of the Damned produced a bunch of mana. Cryptbreaker was his usual, all-star self and Phyrexian Altar and Buried Alive proved their value once again. With Muse and Varina, I was able to look at a ton of cards and sculpt a combo win before Jodah crushed everyone with a massive board state.

[Rframpt]

Graveborn Muse is such a sweet and fair card. Makes playing Zombies really interesting once it hits the field. Sure you have a chance to get got if you can't get rid of it but with the upside of using some of the life gain we can have to fill our hand is so great

[pzbw7z]

A copy of Shipwreck Marsh fell into my lap recently and I'm considering putting it in in place of Clearwater Pathway // Murkwater Pathway. It seems to have mostly upside. Do you agree?

[pokken]

A copy of Shipwreck Marsh fell into my lap recently and I'm considering putting it in in place of Clearwater Pathway // Murkwater Pathway. It seems to have mostly upside. Do you agree?

I would not play either one of those I don't think. But I play a lot of 1 drops and 2 drops, and dont' like how tap lands hit my sequencing. It's bad enough with Crypt of Agadeem, Field of the Dead, Sunken Hollow and Fetid Pools. Franly I should give some thought to cutting hollow/pools, but I'm still enjoying crucible/sevinnes/cosmic intervention ramp occasionally.


Try Swamp ;D

[Rframpt]

A copy of Shipwreck Marsh fell into my lap recently and I'm considering putting it in in place of Clearwater Pathway // Murkwater Pathway. It seems to have mostly upside. Do you agree?

To me it sounds more like a lateral move rather than just a straight upgrade. Still Shipwreck Marsh an it cycle isn't a cycle I play to run in my varina deck. Will try out the new Surveil lands however, seeing the top card might be good might be meh, might be terrible, but I am hopeful that they can prove themselves in the deck.

Will also be trying out Unshakable Tail once my packages arrive. I get the feeling that the card might be alright, thought not to the same level as Master of Death have been for me. Constantly discarding it to Varina has always felt good

[plaganegra]

anyone planning to test out any of the new fallout cards?

I don't think the zombies make the cut, unfortunately. A new undying zombie is relevant however in Hancock, Ghoulish Mayor. Jason Bright, Glowing Prophet is pretty interesting and probably works well in some builds. Raul, Trouble Shooter is also interesting depending on how you build your zombie deck - doesn't fit mine sadly. The mill synergy maybe has some utility for some. Feral Ghoul - Alternate win condition for an infinite combo? Screeching Scorchbeast.

If you utilize Altar of Dementia (I do) Raul has legs probably.

I am reaching here with the rest lol.

Nuclear Fallout is really cool, probably wont use it in my zombie deck unless I want that art badly enough. Toxic Deluge is king here.

[toctheyounger]

Yeah, nothing from Fallout really hit me right. There was one zombie that we could loop for rad counters, I forget the name, but honestly it's no different to our aristocrat loops, just with extra steps and extra time.

As far as Shipwreck Marsh goes, it's not a card I'd really search out. I'd be just as happy with a basic, or a battle land if you haven't filled them out, or a fetch if you haven't done the same. That's pretty much where I'm at currently. I missed the Baldur's Gate slump of battle lands, so I'll wait for another reprint of those, but I'm also quite keen to get allied fetches in here mid-year with MH3 too.

[Reya]

I just tried a game with Knowledge is power, Roaming Throne and Archfiend of Ifnir.

All three performed very well.

Knowledge is power is expensive but you can see it as a finisher or a way to keep swinging because your zombies will be too big to die. Sometimes you can just win by combat if you don't find your combo.

It was good to play with Archfiend of Ifnir again. Alaways nice to wipe all your opponents creatures... without caring about indestructible, hexproof or wathever they have.

Roaming Throne is just stupidly strong in any typal deck.

To support this I also playtested with Animate Dead and Reanimate. Those two cards won't be dead anyway. Either you bring back a huge bomb like Archfiend or Throne. Or simply reanimate Varina for 1 or 2 mana. Or steal something gross in another grave

Did you guys experienced with cheap reanimation spells too ? Or Throne, Knowledge ?

[pokken]

I run Dread Return and it's always phenomenal.

[pzbw7z]

Did you guys experienced with cheap reanimation spells too ? Or Throne, Knowledge ?

Reanimate is a cEDH staple for good reason. I played it in Prosper for years, but only since I retired Prosper have I played it in Varina. Even Zombies can benefit from some extra reanimation abilities.

Roaming Throne is stupid good in any deck with a Commander that has a powerful ability to copy. If it's Tribal, that's just gravy. Throne with Sidisi, Undead Vizier is bonkers.

I have not tried Knowledge Is Power but it could have been good with my old build; the new build? Not so much.

[Reya]

What about Mana Crypt, Sol Ring, Mox Diamond, Chrome Mox and stuff like this ?

I will probably cut them all. I think Varina just needs to lands every turn and it's enough. As soon as we play a land each and every turn we are fine because we will go of with an altar or a big mana land like Crypt or Nykthos. It's better to make room for synergistics cards and land tutor rather than play rocks producing colorless or moxes that ask for another card.

But I guess the feeling is the same for almost everyone here ?