Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

[IAMAfortunecookieAMA]

The discussion is very helpful for me to really think out the higher-level strategy, so I'm glad you drew a lens on it!

[pzbw7z]

Has anyone ever even heard of Dromar's Cavern? I stumbled across one of the other Lairs while rummaging through a bulk box, so I looked up Land, Lair in Gatherer and, sure enough, there's an Esper one.

The downside is significant, maybe too significant, but I'm still thinking about it

With how many options we have for multi-colored lands, I can't see playing the Lairs in any deck that doesn't specifically want to be returning lands to hand. Giving Varina an additional card in hand to pitch isn't enough value to warrant the lost of development that comes from essentially Stone Raining your own land. You also can't play this on turn 1, and if you play it before turn 4, you delay Varina by at least a turn.

That's pretty much spot on, except it's not the same as Stone Rain as the land will get replayed. But it's a pretty decent cycle of budget lands that probably should see a little play. I don't think there's a spot in my list for it, but I can see playing them in three-color budget Commander decks. Three-color is fundamentally difficult for budget to begin with, so an untapped three-color land is pretty sweet. Landfall benefits would push these lands well up in value.

[IAMAfortunecookieAMA]

That's pretty much spot on, except it's not the same as Stone Rain as the land will get replayed. But it's a pretty decent cycle of budget lands that probably should see a little play. I don't think there's a spot in my list for it, but I can see playing them in three-color budget Commander decks. Three-color is fundamentally difficult for budget to begin with, so an untapped three-color land is pretty sweet. Landfall benefits would push these lands well up in value.

There's the hidden value of running a sweet old-bordered card nobody has ever heard of. Live rent-free in your friend's heads!

[pzbw7z]

There's the hidden value of running a sweet old-bordered card nobody has ever heard of. Live rent-free in your friend's heads!

I have grown fond of the pre-modern frame, or "retro" in the case of the reprints.

[ElTuberias]

Hello everyone new Varina player here. I am creating a Varina deck with cards that can reanimate from the graveyard like Poxwalkers, Prized Amalgam, Haakon, Stromgald Scourge and Razorlash Transmogrant .
I have one question
Why no one considers Scourge of Nel Toth ?

[pzbw7z]

Hello everyone new Varina player here. I am creating a Varina deck with cards that can reanimate from the graveyard like Poxwalkers, Prized Amalgam, Haakon, Stromgald Scourge and Razorlash Transmogrant .
I have one question
Why no one considers Scourge of Nel Toth ?

Welcome!

I'd never heard of that card before. My deck is not on the beat-down plan, so it's not really to my taste. It's the sort of thing that could get you blown out a little, but Zombies are resilient to that sort of thing to a great extent.

[toctheyounger]

Hello everyone new Varina player here. I am creating a Varina deck with cards that can reanimate from the graveyard like Poxwalkers, Prized Amalgam, Haakon, Stromgald Scourge and Razorlash Transmogrant .
I have one question
Why no one considers Scourge of Nel Toth ?

Welcome!

Personally I don't think the juice is worth the squeeze with Scourge. We're definitely a deck in which numbers count sideways more than up, so a beater just isn't as valuable as 2 creatures you can swing with with Varina. If it entered with haste, sure it might be a little pushed, but it would make Scourge a great deal more playable. Even then it's a maybe, and because you're wanting to still get Varina triggers from an attack, you're telegraphing it a bit as something to resurrect 2nd main, makes it a bit less valuable.

As well as that, to me the value of Poxwalkers and Gravecrawler and such is being able to, at the lowest possible point of value, either have them enter free or close to it and add to your board. You can Skullclamp them repeatedly in a turn and even that's only half as much value as you can get from them. I just don't think a dragon beats that sort of value.

As an aside for the followers in general here, apologies for the general radio silence here; my wife has just given birth to our second child, so things are a bit hectic here. That said I'm still keeping up with releases, and I have thoughts on some of the cards from Ixalan 2: the Caverning. There's not much for us, but there's not nothing to consider. I should have some time in the next few days to ramble about it more and generate some discussion. In the meantime feel free to talk amongst yourselves

[IAMAfortunecookieAMA]

Congrats on the baby! I have a new little baby too, have fun and don't sweat the thread!

[ElTuberias]

Hello everyone new Varina player here. I am creating a Varina deck with cards that can reanimate from the graveyard like Poxwalkers, Prized Amalgam, Haakon, Stromgald Scourge and Razorlash Transmogrant .
I have one question
Why no one considers Scourge of Nel Toth ?

Welcome!

Personally I don't think the juice is worth the squeeze with Scourge. We're definitely a deck in which numbers count sideways more than up, so a beater just isn't as valuable as 2 creatures you can swing with with Varina. If it entered with haste, sure it might be a little pushed, but it would make Scourge a great deal more playable. Even then it's a maybe, and because you're wanting to still get Varina triggers from an attack, you're telegraphing it a bit as something to resurrect 2nd main, makes it a bit less valuable.

As well as that, to me the value of Poxwalkers and Gravecrawler and such is being able to, at the lowest possible point of value, either have them enter free or close to it and add to your board. You can Skullclamp them repeatedly in a turn and even that's only half as much value as you can get from them. I just don't think a dragon beats that sort of value.

As an aside for the followers in general here, apologies for the general radio silence here; my wife has just given birth to our second child, so things are a bit hectic here. That said I'm still keeping up with releases, and I have thoughts on some of the cards from Ixalan 2: the Caverning. There's not much for us, but there's not nothing to consider. I should have some time in the next few days to ramble about it more and generate some discussion. In the meantime feel free to talk amongst yourselves

Thank you for yout answer and congrats on the baby!!!.

I have one more question to anyone in the forum: If i wanted a zomie deck with a higher mana curve which commander would you recommend (considering cards like Sidisi, Undead Vizier , Rot Hulk, Noxious Ghoul ? Would it still be Varina?

[yeti1069]

Hello everyone new Varina player here. I am creating a Varina deck with cards that can reanimate from the graveyard like Poxwalkers, Prized Amalgam, Haakon, Stromgald Scourge and Razorlash Transmogrant .
I have one question
Why no one considers Scourge of Nel Toth ?

Welcome!

Personally I don't think the juice is worth the squeeze with Scourge. We're definitely a deck in which numbers count sideways more than up, so a beater just isn't as valuable as 2 creatures you can swing with with Varina. If it entered with haste, sure it might be a little pushed, but it would make Scourge a great deal more playable. Even then it's a maybe, and because you're wanting to still get Varina triggers from an attack, you're telegraphing it a bit as something to resurrect 2nd main, makes it a bit less valuable.

As well as that, to me the value of Poxwalkers and Gravecrawler and such is being able to, at the lowest possible point of value, either have them enter free or close to it and add to your board. You can Skullclamp them repeatedly in a turn and even that's only half as much value as you can get from them. I just don't think a dragon beats that sort of value.

As an aside for the followers in general here, apologies for the general radio silence here; my wife has just given birth to our second child, so things are a bit hectic here. That said I'm still keeping up with releases, and I have thoughts on some of the cards from Ixalan 2: the Caverning. There's not much for us, but there's not nothing to consider. I should have some time in the next few days to ramble about it more and generate some discussion. In the meantime feel free to talk amongst yourselves

Thank you for yout answer and congrats on the baby!!!.

I have one more question to anyone in the forum: If i wanted a zomie deck with a higher mana curve which commander would you recommend (considering cards like Sidisi, Undead Vizier , Rot Hulk, Noxious Ghoul ? Would it still be Varina?

I run all 3 of those in my Varina list.

[toctheyounger]

Thank you for yout answer and congrats on the baby!!!.

I have one more question to anyone in the forum: If i wanted a zomie deck with a higher mana curve which commander would you recommend (considering cards like Sidisi, Undead Vizier , Rot Hulk, Noxious Ghoul ? Would it still be Varina?

Absolutely. Varina works just fine with these, I've run 2 of the three in my list in the past to good effect, as well as Mikaeus, the Unhallowed. You're never looking to hardcast them, so you do no need to get some spot reanimates in here for reliability, but Varina can get them in the yard very easily, and they're eminently abusable in a variety of ways.

Congrats on the baby! I have a new little baby too, have fun and don't sweat the thread!

Thank you to both - we are happy but very tired. I hear having 2 is easier in the long run, but for now it's pretty punishing. We'll get there

So Ixalan: there's not really a ton of a point in going through the entire set, we're not the target demographic for this plane, to the point where even the undead are either bare bones or ghosts, which is some %$#%$#%, but hey, they can't all be zingers.

That said, there's a couple of pieces at least that warrant discussion.

Roaming Throne - I think there's at least the possibility of the inclusion of this. It costs a lot to cast, but we're not fussed for colors at all, it has ward, and it doubles triggers for all of our zombies. Digging doubly as quick with Varina is nice, but then there's our aristocrats, Gary, Standard Bearer, Wilhelt, Headless Rider, so on and so forth. I think it might be worth a test.

Tarrian's Journal // The Tomb of Aclazotz - It's a very slow sacrifice outlet, but it's a nice payoff, and it's cheap to cast. Transforming it isn't the worst either; while it's not the best way to resurrect our creatures, it isn't nothing and it's nice as a last ditch if we're being beaten on the stack or have no other options. In the right scenario, it would be pretty easy to transform with no significant downside, too. If we don't have a draw doubler of any sort out it's fairly common to go hellbent, and once we're at that point, why not transform it?

Altar of the Wretched // Wretched Bonemass - I see this as mostly a once off ritual. It's definitely better when you've got a big fat fatty to pop, such as Dargo, the Shipwrecker, but we've got Champion of the Perished and Phyrexian Ghoul to make it a massive dig. I think it's a bit more questionable than the journal, but it could be of use. We are never going to be transforming this, it's of no significance to us whatsoever, but nonetheless, it could be decent.

Get Lost - This is pretty versatile removal. The map tokens are a pretty poor trade, given there's no instant speed use of them, and 2 isn't terrible in trade. I'm not certain it's an amazing inclusion, but it's a nice tempo piece for sure.

Anything I've missed? The set is strong in a ton of ways, but not necessarily for us. Regardless, while these are weird cards, I think they're generally a bit stronger than they look. They do a lot of what we want to be doing for good value.

[IAMAfortunecookieAMA]

I will personally be using Roaming Throne, at least to test it out. They also printed an Arcane Signet with a zombie-looking hand in the art, which is perfect.

[pzbw7z]

Anything I've missed? The set is strong in a ton of ways, but not necessarily for us. Regardless, while these are weird cards, I think they're generally a bit stronger than they look. They do a lot of what we want to be doing for good value.

Bitter Triumph is probably not good enough for Commander in Esper but it's a - budget, at least - card. I've already slotted it in my $100 Rowan, Scion of War deck.

On the other hand, I wouldn't make fun of anyone who played it in Varina.

[pzbw7z]

So, tell me what you think; is Isolated Chapel better than Tainted Field?

Since Field doesn't really work without a Swamp, Chapel seems about as good on that point alone. Since Chapel also benefits from Plains, it seems clearly better.

Field's only saving grace is it always comes in untapped, even if it will only produce colorless. Well, there's also the point that I have a Field, whereas I'd have to get a Chapel. Still, Chapel isn't terribly expensive and I guess Field is probably worth the $0.18 it currently goes for. In fairness, Field is probably pretty good in straight Orzhov.

I guess I just discounted Chapel because I had such a dim view of it from my days playing Orzhov tokens in Modern, where it was just not good enough.

Clearly, there are several - many? - even better lands for the slot, but most of them are currently out of budget. Prosper has a number of good lands for the slot but I'm not going to proxy.

[yeti1069]

So, tell me what you think; is Isolated Chapel better than Tainted Field?

Since Field doesn't really work without a Swamp, Chapel seems about as good on that point alone. Since Chapel also benefits from Plains, it seems clearly better.

Field's only saving grace is it always comes in untapped, even if it will only produce colorless. Well, there's also the point that I have a Field, whereas I'd have to get a Chapel. Still, Chapel isn't terribly expensive and I guess Field is probably worth the $0.18 it currently goes for. In fairness, Field is probably pretty good in straight Orzhov.

I guess I just discounted Chapel because I had such a dim view of it from my days playing Orzhov tokens in Modern, where it was just not good enough.

Clearly, there are several - many? - even better lands for the slot, but most of them are currently out of budget. Prosper has a number of good lands for the slot but I'm not going to proxy.

I've found the Tainted lands to be too unreliable in 3+ color decks, even if the deck is heavily black. Part of that depends heavily on how many Swamps you're running, and how many fetchlands. Even still, a land that ETB tapped, but then always produces the colors you included it for is often better than a land that ETB untapped, but may go several turns without producing the colors you wanted. Another way I've looked at them is, if I have an opening hand with one of these, and two off-color lands, along with some primary color (black) cards to cast, which hand is keepable? You lose maybe a little tempo by playing Chapel tapped on turn one, if you have a 1 drop, whereas you can't keep the Tainted land hand.

[IAMAfortunecookieAMA]

I found a new combo last night:

In play: Phyrexian Altar, Zombie Infestation, Decaying Soil, and Grave Scrabbler. I also had Threshold.

1. Sacrifice Grave Scrabbler to Phyrexian Altar. in pool.
2. Pay into Decaying Soil to return Grave Scrabbler to my hand.
3. Discard Grave Scrabbler and another creature card to Zombie Infestation. Create a Zombie.
4. Cast Grave Scrabbler for its madness cost, returning the other discarded creature card to hand.

End of the loop is -, +1 Zombie! With something like Bridge from Below and an ETB/death trigger like Corpse Knight in play, you can go infinite!

[ApeFrogga]

Heyho guys , It's fascinating to find a community (after 4+years) that thinks as hard as yourself about fine tuning varina xD.

After reading the last 50 pages in this thread and the primer ( I totally understand the choices made in that specific list)
I'm somewhat confused why you guys don't use cards like :

1. Ad Nauseam
2. Pyre of Heroes
3. Cauldron Haze

For reference here my current personal list

Ad Nauseam doesn't guaranty a win, but a EOT Ad Nause for 15 to 20 in the Midgame hits one of the this cards most of the time:

1. Rally the Ancestors
2. Rooftop Storm
3. Bone Miser

Which can lead to not game winning plays but at least to plays that advance your game plan and the overall game.
Rooftop Storm perfect curves out of EOT Ad Nauseam,
Rally the Ancestors for x=4 reanimates most of the deck and allows for burst drain, life gain or additional card draw,
Bone Miser with right board state can lead to burst drain, mass Reanimation or an assembled token army

Pyre of Heroes saved my bacon numerous times when I was stuck on three lands, finished games by searching for mass Reanimation in the form of Balthor the Defiled, allowed for EOT "combo"-lines by sacing a Graveborn Muse to get Bone Miser

While I consider Cauldron Haze more of a pet card of mine I truly believe a lot of people can use it's full potential as well. It can be used politically because it can target creatures you don't control, can be used during EOT Bone Miser lines because it can be paid for by only using black mana, can double finishing ETB and LTB triggers from Massreanimation, can be used as boardwhipe protection and sooo many more things!! It is a great tool if you are creative or people have no issue with you thinking your lines through during your turn( I'm more of the later person 😅😅)

[Rframpt]

Hi ApeFrogga, Great to have you on board. You bring up some interesting cards to add to Varina. I agree mostly with what you have brought to the table as the cards are all bangers. Bone Miser, Rally the Ancestors, Pyre of Heroes and Rooftop Storm, All incredible cards for any Varina decks. Bone Miser is an all-star inside my shell of Varina and I am always happy to see it.

I did try out Pyre of Heroes, and while I do love Pod-type effects it has sadly not done enough for my version of the deck.

Rally the Ancestors has always been a 101 card that ends up being cut for other things. And I haven't found what to cut to add it to my deck.

Cauldron Haze is certainly I can I will try out instead of Rise of the Dread Marn as a way to medicate boardwipes.

Looking over your list, one card I think you could get a lot of use for is Faces of the Past. You seem to have a lot of ways to tap your creatures. Maybe getting a way to untap them with a death of a Zombie might be useful for you?

[ApeFrogga]

I can understand that Pyre of Heroes utility is dependent on the curve but do you guys really don't have a similar top end creature-wise?
Funny thing after adding Balthor the Defiled a few months ago I was considering to take out Rally the Ancestors but didn't and after seeing Repository Skaab here and reading about potential lines with it my crafting juices are running wild

Rally the Ancestors + Repository Skaab +Phyrexian Altar can be a instantspeed infinite line 😍😍


Faces of the Past looks quite interesting, I'm not sure if it is worth the 3 mana but it is another way to break the „symmetry" ofTombstone Stairwell without Binding Mummy and the synergy with Shepherd of Rot,Siege Zombie,Cryptbreaker 🤩. Do you have experience with that card in a varina deck ?

[yeti1069]

Heyho guys , It's fascinating to find a community (after 4+years) that thinks as hard as yourself about fine tuning varina xD.

After reading the last 50 pages in this thread and the primer ( I totally understand the choices made in that specific list)
I'm somewhat confused why you guys don't use cards like :

1. Ad Nauseam
2. Pyre of Heroes
3. Cauldron Haze

For reference here my current personal list

Ad Nauseam doesn't guaranty a win, but a EOT Ad Nause for 15 to 20 in the Midgame hits one of the this cards most of the time:

1. Rally the Ancestors
2. Rooftop Storm
3. Bone Miser

Which can lead to not game winning plays but at least to plays that advance your game plan and the overall game.
Rooftop Storm perfect curves out of EOT Ad Nauseam,
Rally the Ancestors for x=4 reanimates most of the deck and allows for burst drain, life gain or additional card draw,
Bone Miser with right board state can lead to burst drain, mass Reanimation or an assembled token army

Pyre of Heroes saved my bacon numerous times when I was stuck on three lands, finished games by searching for mass Reanimation in the form of Balthor the Defiled, allowed for EOT "combo"-lines by sacing a Graveborn Muse to get Bone Miser

While I consider Cauldron Haze more of a pet card of mine I truly believe a lot of people can use it's full potential as well. It can be used politically because it can target creatures you don't control, can be used during EOT Bone Miser lines because it can be paid for by only using black mana, can double finishing ETB and LTB triggers from Massreanimation, can be used as boardwhipe protection and sooo many more things!! It is a great tool if you are creative or people have no issue with you thinking your lines through during your turn( I'm more of the later person 😅😅)

I run Bone Miser in my list, but my curve has stayed a bit higher than what this thread has moved towards. Still, I find it to be of mixed value here. Too often, the mana being generated goes to waste, while the other modes are solid.

Rally I would probably run if I were running more sac outlets, and especially more creature-based sac outlets. The threat of exiling everything I just brought back leaves me feeling lackluster about the card. Also, I'm running 3 or 4 mass reanimates, and that generally feels like a sufficient number, even if the instant speed nature of this one is attractive. Also, needing is not without some difficulty at times.

Ad Naus I generally view as a very competitive card, and am reticent to include it in a non-cEDH. I used to run it in Edgar Markov vampires, where the average CMC was like 2, but here, there are too many 4- and 5-drops, and I rarely find that I'm at a comfortable life total to be spending on this, as Varina often quickly becomes a threat, and defends itself poorly. Besides that, it's rare for the deck to have enough mana available to truly make use of a glut of resources like Ad Naus provides.

Pyre is a great card, that just felt too slow here. With Varina filtering through multiple cards per turn, some of the big draw effects (like Graveborn Muse and Kindred Discovery) make repeated tutoring feel kind of unnecessary, and then there are just efficient tutors that can be played when something specific is needed. The cards I most often tutor for are mass reanimates or interaction, which Pyre can't get directly, so the stuff I'd most want to fetch with Pyre are combo pieces (which I've deemphasized), draw, or something big and scary, but I've rarely felt like I want to be spending 4 mana for that, or delaying Varina's efficiency by dropping it early to use later.

Also note that Pyre is sorcery speed, so EOT or mid-combat Bone Miser mana doesn't help.

Cauldron Haze looks cute. It certainly has potential for some big plays.

I can understand that Pyre of Heroes utility is dependent on the curve but do you guys really don't have a similar top end creature-wise?
Funny thing after adding Balthor the Defiled a few months ago I was considering to take out Rally the Ancestors but didn't and after seeing Repository Skaab here and reading about potential lines with it my crafting juices are running wild

Rally the Ancestors + Repository Skaab +Phyrexian Altar can be a instantspeed infinite line 😍😍


Faces of the Past looks quite interesting, I'm not sure if it is worth the 3 mana but it is another way to break the „symmetry" ofTombstone Stairwell without Binding Mummy and the synergy with Shepherd of Rot,Siege Zombie,Cryptbreaker 🤩. Do you have experience with that card in a varina deck ?

Rally exiles itself on resolution, so there's no comboing there. But you could do that with any of the other mass reanimates at sorcery speed.

[toctheyounger]

Welcome, ApeFrogga! It's always nice to see a new face in the thread, and kudos for reading through so much of it, there's value there but it's definitely an undertaking.

So of the choices you've suggested one I have tried myself, and that's Ad Naus. In terms of sheer draw value it's perfectly easy to hit 20+ cards without pressuring your life total too terribly. The problem I had with Naus was sequencing. I often found myself having to hold up mana for an end of turn cycle Naus prior to my turn purely because I wouldn't have spare mana to make anything from a main phase Naus. Which is fine, but it's still loss of tempo, and preferably post Naus I'd like to close out the game as soon as possible. I think if I had stuff like Culling the Weak and the best fast mana rocks available to us in my list I'd be happier to use it, and it'd be easier to close the game after Naus resolution, but as my deck is more of a farm build on a shoestring (I just don't have those cards) it ended up just not being where I wanted to be.

Rally looks great on the first cast. Unfortunately, it does have an exile clause. Upon resolution it exiles itself, so in that sense it's far inferior to Living Death et al. No Skaab loops sadly.

Pyre is an interesting choice. I think there's scope for it in the right builds, though currently I'm not sure that's me. With things like Rot Hulk and Phyrexian Delver I can see come cool sequences, but again I'm not sure what pieces exactly were chaining for, nor how we would use it to any greater effect than a once per turn effect. In that sense it's fine, but that's absolutely the fairest terms in which to use a pod card, and we all know that isn't the best way to use a pod card.

Cauldron Haze I think would do good things in a deck with Mike, or even just as a value play with tribal lords. In the right circumstance you could start a loop out of nowhere outside of your own turn even. That's pretty cool. I think for me I've got mostly stuff that's so low to the ground persist really won't help too much. That said I've run Mike before, and as a combo line he can be worth it, if you're able to get him into play. He kind of struggles with pure CMC as well as pips, so you really do need to work on ways to cheat him in. But yeah this is a cool card, I think it's worth keeping on the radar for sure!

[Rframpt]

Faces of the Past looks quite interesting, I'm not sure if it is worth the 3 mana but it is another way to break the „symmetry" ofTombstone Stairwell without Binding Mummy and the synergy with Shepherd of Rot,Siege Zombie,Cryptbreaker 🤩. Do you have experience with that card in a varina deck ?

Faces of the Past used to be in my deck, sadly I ended up cutting as I didn't have enough sacrifice outlets nor did I have enough ways to abuse the tapping down of opponents creatures or enough tapping creature abilities. Still it might be a card I will reconsider for the deck. Stronghold Assassin is a card I might want to add to the deck

[ApeFrogga]

I run Bone Miser in my list, but my curve has stayed a bit higher than what this thread has moved towards. Still, I find it to be of mixed value here. Too often, the mana being generated goes to waste, while the other modes are solid.

My average cmc is 2.5 without lands and 1.51 with lands (I assume I'm also in the higher end). If it was only the value generated through combat with Bone Miser I would cut it but end of turn with 15+ cards in hand can allow for a chain of clean ups that my list can use with cards like :

1. Putrid Imp
2. Dreadmalkin
3. Lazotep Chancellor
4. Razorlash Transmogrant
5. Relentless Dead
6. Withered Wretch
7. Cauldron Haze
8. Plumb the Forbidden
9. Rally the Ancestors

Pared with my sacoutlets I found myself using most of the mana (assuming you go into your first cleanup with 15+ cards)

Rally I would probably run if I were running more sac outlets, and especially more creature-based sac outlets. The threat of exiling everything I just brought back leaves me feeling lackluster about the card. Also, I'm running 3 or 4 mass reanimates, and that generally feels like a sufficient number, even if the instant speed nature of this one is attractive. Also, needing {W}{W}is not without some difficulty at times.

Yeah I run 3 creaturebased ones with a fourth (pseudo)one in Mirror Entity so I have one most of the times … the double withe pipps are difficult at times I agree 😅😅

Ad Naus I generally view as a very competitive card, and am reticent to include it in a non-cEDH. I used to run it in Edgar Markov vampires, where the average CMC was like 2, but here, there are too many 4- and 5-drops, and I rarely find that I'm at a comfortable life total to be spending on this, as Varina often quickly becomes a threat, and defends itself poorly. Besides that, it's rare for the deck to have enough mana available to truly make use of a glut of resources like Ad Naus provides.

I consider Ad Naus a dead card when I'm below 32-ish life and never use it on my turn - always Last End-step before my turn to fill up my hand.

About the pyre : I don't play Kindred Discovery that's why Pyre of Heroes is a tutor for Graveborn Muse most of the time or a tutor for Mass Reanimation in the form Balthor the Defiled. And about the combo line with Graveborn Muse and Bone Miser : I draw my cards in the upkeep with the Muse sac it during the turn to get Bone Miser and then proceed to „combo" in the clean ups. I know that it is sorcery used to play melira pod back in the day , maybe that's why I'm so positive on Pyre of Heroes 😅

Totally missed the exile clause on Rally the Ancestors I never and I mean never exiled that card (also never recurred it xD)(and I prolly resolved that spell two douzen times 😬😬) BUT in that case Wake the Dead could do the trick instead with token generator in the mix like Headless Rider

[Rframpt]

I am also likely on the higher end as I also play some more reanimation spells such as Animate Dead, Necromancy, Sevinne's Reclamation and Court of Ardenvale. As my list also plays Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant and Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

And I am not afraid to continuously wipe the board with Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant, Phyrexian Tower and Unholy Grotto for an ultimate control concession.

Noxious Ghoul is also a card I have in my deck as I live having it in the yard and likely wiping the board as all the Zombies enter.

[yeti1069]

I run Bone Miser in my list, but my curve has stayed a bit higher than what this thread has moved towards. Still, I find it to be of mixed value here. Too often, the mana being generated goes to waste, while the other modes are solid.

My average cmc is 2.5 without lands and 1.51 with lands (I assume I'm also in the higher end). If it was only the value generated through combat with Bone Miser I would cut it but end of turn with 15+ cards in hand can allow for a chain of clean ups that my list can use with cards like :

1. Putrid Imp
2. Dreadmalkin
3. Lazotep Chancellor
4. Razorlash Transmogrant
5. Relentless Dead
6. Withered Wretch
7. Cauldron Haze
8. Plumb the Forbidden
9. Rally the Ancestors

Pared with my sacoutlets I found myself using most of the mana (assuming you go into your first cleanup with 15+ cards)

Rally I would probably run if I were running more sac outlets, and especially more creature-based sac outlets. The threat of exiling everything I just brought back leaves me feeling lackluster about the card. Also, I'm running 3 or 4 mass reanimates, and that generally feels like a sufficient number, even if the instant speed nature of this one is attractive. Also, needing {W}{W}is not without some difficulty at times.

Yeah I run 3 creaturebased ones with a fourth (pseudo)one in Mirror Entity so I have one most of the times … the double withe pipps are difficult at times I agree 😅😅

Ad Naus I generally view as a very competitive card, and am reticent to include it in a non-cEDH. I used to run it in Edgar Markov vampires, where the average CMC was like 2, but here, there are too many 4- and 5-drops, and I rarely find that I'm at a comfortable life total to be spending on this, as Varina often quickly becomes a threat, and defends itself poorly. Besides that, it's rare for the deck to have enough mana available to truly make use of a glut of resources like Ad Naus provides.

I consider Ad Naus a dead card when I'm below 32-ish life and never use it on my turn - always Last End-step before my turn to fill up my hand.

About the pyre : I don't play Kindred Discovery that's why Pyre of Heroes is a tutor for Graveborn Muse most of the time or a tutor for Mass Reanimation in the form Balthor the Defiled. And about the combo line with Graveborn Muse and Bone Miser : I draw my cards in the upkeep with the Muse sac it during the turn to get Bone Miser and then proceed to „combo" in the clean ups. I know that it is sorcery used to play melira pod back in the day , maybe that's why I'm so positive on Pyre of Heroes 😅

Totally missed the exile clause on Rally the Ancestors I never and I mean never exiled that card (also never recurred it xD)(and I prolly resolved that spell two douzen times 😬😬) BUT in that case Wake the Dead could do the trick instead with token generator in the mix like Headless Rider

If there are 1 or 2 cards you find yourself tutoring for regularly, I'd just as soon play Vampiric or Demonic Tutor. They require less setup--you have 10 creatures at 3 mana, so it's not like you will always have an appropriate "target" when you have Pyre to get your valuable 4-drops. For assembling combos, or accruing value turn after turn, Pyre is great, and if you're using it that way then it's providing value. I'd rather be committing more bodies to the board and drawing more cards, than cycling up my creatures one at a time for each turn. I like Pyre a lot in my Marchesa the Black Rose deck, but that's a very different shell than Varina.

How often are you getting to 15+ cards in hand, and with what? I find that I'm occasionally at that level with Graveborn or Kindred, but then I rarely need to be looking at big discard piles for Bone Miser at end of turn. Similarly, I feel like the only times I'm at 32+ life is either right after I've gotten down a big life drain turn (Gary or a mass reanimate with Wayward Servant, as examples), or in games where I'm just not being threatened at all. In either case, Ad Naus seems very much winmore (a label I rarely throw around).

As an aside, I don't see Wayward Servant in your list, despite it being an almost strict upgrade over Corpse Knight, excepting the Haakon synergy.

Ultimately, I'm playing a higher curve with less focus on combos, and more emphasis placed on combat and go-wide draining.