The Community Deck Build Project v9.0

[gsgfdf]

Yay Path to Exile.
Nay on Lightning Bolt. Don't get me wrong, Bolt has a place in the format but that place is as a synergy piece in a spellslinger deck, not as an individual removal piece. I would much rather ran Infernal Grasp first.
Nay on Cling to Dust. Same as Bolt, we need synergy to run a single target hate piece and we don't have that in our deck. Both of these cards are not powerful enough to warrant inclusion on their own.

[3drinks]

Good ol Bolt, nothing beats Bolt. There's not much that beats the raw efficiency and still goes upstairs too. Skred is close, but we don't have the snow base to support because we have deserts. Unholy Heat is on the cusp, though again probably iffy since Scav Grounds will reset delirium. Wild Magic Surge is...just about there, but you have to be more judicious with where you fire it off.

Today we'll finish off this cycle of picks with @MrBloo and @aliciaofthevast. Path and a confirmed Bolt will bring us to 93/100, slots, so you have seven slots left to lock in.

Path to Exile yay - 5 nay - 0
Lightning Bolt yay - 1 nay - 1

https://www.moxfield.com/decks/5JGLDfA7OEy0ZaPb3Nw9QQ

[3drinks]

Nay on Lightning Bolt. Don't get me wrong, Bolt has a place in the format but that place is as a synergy piece in a spellslinger deck, not as an individual removal piece. I would much rather ran Infernal Grasp first.Both of these cards are not powerful enough to warrant inclusion on their own.

I love this argument because it's a fascinating discussion point to be had, every time I talk about Bolt in commander.

Look at the games you play. How often do you find yourself answering an x/3 creature. Really look back and analyze the number of utility commanders, the Baral/Nightscape Familiars you can't let people untap with, the Archdruids/Kaalias/Kinnans of the world. To say nothing of occasionally doming a player to knock them out. If we consider, for the cost of r we get;

Choose one:

• move target creature with toughness three or less from the battlefield to the graveyard.
• move target planeswalker with loyalty three or less from the battlefield to the graveyard.
• reduce target player's life total by three.

You'd agree this is incredibly powerful to have such options at the cost right? I would. Swords to Plowshares is typically heralded as the best spot removal in the format, and it can't even do all of these features. And you still only get one. To draw it back to your original Infernal Grasp point, are Dismember/Cut Down bad because they don't kill titans? Or are they better because spending 1/b to interact with a threat is more efficient than spending 1b?

[MrBloo]

Lightning Bolt is such a weird card for me. On one hand I do see the simplicity and efficient it gets us. I'm willing to give it a shot just because I want to see how far it goes. Also another thing we haven't brought up regarding its use in this deck is that it can also be used to take out blockers post combat whose owners think they could just get free blocks with since we usually try to always attack anyway. I have multiple times in the past intentionally attacked into a wall just to get triggers off so having access to bolt does open us up to some opportunities. Just a thought,

Yay on Bolt.

I guess we should eat some more of "board-based combat deck vegetables" so I'd like to start the train of a few cards by nominating Flawless Maneuver. Very much would like to discuss exactly how many of these board protect effects we generally want in decks like this because there are now so many options and we definitely don't want to be running too many and end up with ways to protect but nothing to protect or not enough things worth protecting.

[toctheyounger]

Also another thing we haven't brought up regarding its use in this deck is that it can also be used to take out blockers post combat whose owners think they could just get free blocks with since we usually try to always attack anyway. I have multiple times in the past intentionally attacked into a wall just to get triggers off so having access to bolt does open us up to some opportunities. Just a thought,

This was definitely in my thoughts for use cases of Bolt. I think its the most versatile removal we could have in the deck, but being able to clear blockers or reliably create gotcha moments is huge for us.

Yea for Maneuver. Card is probably good here over almost anywhere else, though there are very few places I think it's a really good card. Here more than anywhere else I think.

[aliciaofthevast]

Hmm. I think I like Dire Tactics here. It's pretty strong and I think we're gonna have a human most of the time anyway, right? I guess there's a use case where Cut Down is better? But I think this ticks the boxes well enough.

I think flawless maneuver is good enough here, we should prrrrrooobbbaaaabbblllyyyy play that, yes.

[gsgfdf]

Nay on Lightning Bolt. Don't get me wrong, Bolt has a place in the format but that place is as a synergy piece in a spellslinger deck, not as an individual removal piece. I would much rather ran Infernal Grasp first.Both of these cards are not powerful enough to warrant inclusion on their own.

I love this argument because it's a fascinating discussion point to be had, every time I talk about Bolt in commander.

Look at the games you play. How often do you find yourself answering an x/3 creature. Really look back and analyze the number of utility commanders, the Baral/Nightscape Familiars you can't let people untap with, the Archdruids/Kaalias/Kinnans of the world. To say nothing of occasionally doming a player to knock them out. If we consider, for the cost of r we get;

Choose one:

• move target creature with toughness three or less from the battlefield to the graveyard.
• move target planeswalker with loyalty three or less from the battlefield to the graveyard.
• reduce target player's life total by three.

You'd agree this is incredibly powerful to have such options at the cost right? I would. Swords to Plowshares is typically heralded as the best spot removal in the format, and it can't even do all of these features. And you still only get one. To draw it back to your original Infernal Grasp point, are Dismember/Cut Down bad because they don't kill titans? Or are they better because spending 1/b to interact with a threat is more efficient than spending 1b?

As I said about Anguished Unmaking, when I choose what instant speed removal to run I want reliability first and foremost. Bolt is good enough but we have access to black and white so I don't think we need to go there. PWs is the most irrelevant and vulnerable card type in the format so I don't value that use. Killing someone with Bolt without it being part of an engine or combo is such a corner case as to not factor at all.
Dismember is a great card, for and 4 life we answer every creature with mana value 5 or less and quite a few above that. I would still run Infernal Grasp before it though.
I would never in a million years run Cut Down. I am not interested in removal that kills only 24 out of the top 100 commanders in the format. I wouldn't run it even if it cost zero or I played Toshiro Umezawa.

Also another thing we haven't brought up regarding its use in this deck is that it can also be used to take out blockers post combat whose owners think they could just get free blocks with since we usually try to always attack anyway. I have multiple times in the past intentionally attacked into a wall just to get triggers off so having access to bolt does open us up to some opportunities. Just a thought,

This was definitely in my thoughts for use cases of Bolt. I think its the most versatile removal we could have in the deck, but being able to clear blockers or reliably create gotcha moments is huge for us.

2-for-1 ourselves is not a winning strategy in limited, I fail to understand how it helps us in Commander.

Yay on Dire Tactics.
Soft yay on Flawless Maneuver, although I don't really like this type of effect.

[Dunharrow]

Yay bolt and maneuver, easy peasy

Dire Tactics seems mediocre to me at a glance. I think usually I would usually go Anguished Unmaking and Dismember first. But.... I kind of like it here over Unmaking.
My question is whether or not it's better than Abrade at two mana.

[3drinks]

We're up to 95, assuming Dire Tactics makes the cut (which I would yay). I think it's a reasonable unconditional exile that doesn't require I hold up Cancel mana to do so. If it costs some life occasionally, so be it - it's not like we're gonna play mortify|tsr or Exile|6ed in 2023 in it's place. Don't think we're gonna find another that quite does the same thing at this price point in the not-so-distant future anyway.

Let's put @Moxnix and @Dunharrow on the clock and see what other removals or draw spells we can squeeze out for today.

Lightning Bolt yay - 3 nay - 1
Flawless Maneuver yay - 4 nay - 0
Dire Tactics yay - 2 nay - 0

https://www.moxfield.com/decks/5JGLDfA7OEy0ZaPb3Nw9QQ

[Dunharrow]

Can we cut cultivator's caravan and play arcane signet? Or actually chromatic lantern is probably worse. We do have a lot of treasures after all.


Removal I would suggest Dismember. It hits most threats in the format.

Card draw I am starting to draw blanks. Maybe we want impulse draw effects?

[Moxnix]

Yay tacics yay maneuver yay bolt
I agree that signet > caravan or lantern I would love to remove some 3 drops.

[MrBloo]

I'd really like to see us run at least one noncreature permanent removal of some kind. I know Anguished Unmaking is a tough sell here but anything similar I'd be happy to see.

[3drinks]

So, I left the mana suite as it is since they're multi faceted. One provides supreme fixing and the other is a not dead t9 rock since it can beat for 5. I don't think arcane signet can do either of these roles, but let's have a conversation about it.

I think Skeletal Scrying is an often overlooked draw spell, though I bet we can make good use of Idol of Oblivion.

[Dunharrow]

Chromatic Lantern supreme fixing - I don't think we need it?
Like, a turn 2 signet will help us hit all our colors in most games. And then we have treasures popping out all over the place for the odd Aurelia. I don't think our spells are so hard to cast that we will need this supreme mana fixing
and tbh I don't put chromatic lantern in my 3 color decks ever. It's just not needed, outside of wanting access to all 5 colors in a theft deck.

And while I appreciate Caravan and think it is decent, I would rather have a talisman or boros signet in here (probably boros since we have a bit less black).
Turn 2 ramp 1 or turn 3 ramp 1... it's a big difference, and I think it edges out a vanilla 5/5

[aliciaofthevast]

Isn't this what we were talking about earlier? Something about not time walking ourselves to play a mana stone in a deck that is aiming to be aggressive?

I think I'd agree we probably don't need the lantern to fix (though I'd like seeing my schematic lantern get some play 🙃). I think I'd like more treasures if we're going this route and I don't think that's a bad thing either. What if we went -1 lantern +1 seize the spoils? Does this mean we want smothering tithe too?

I'd definitely yay Dismember! Don't think it needs anything building it up, it's just a good interaction piece.

[MrBloo]

If we want treasures and cards, what about Black Market Connections? It's little slower but pays more over time and gets us bodies in a pinch.

[gsgfdf]

Yay on Dismember.

I don't understand Black Market Connections' popularity. It seemed like the hivemind reached a consensus that Phyrexian Arena is too slow, almost unplayable. And then we get a variant with a similar power level (imo at least) and it climbs to 30€. I don't see any reason to run this unless the Shapeshifter token is really important for your deck.

[Dunharrow]

I don't understand Black Market Connections' popularity. It seemed like the hivemind reached a consensus that Phyrexian Arena is too slow, almost unplayable. And then we get a variant with a similar power level (imo at least) and it climbs to 30€. I don't see any reason to run this unless the Shapeshifter token is really important for your deck.

I usually see it played as a phyrexian arena that also makes lotus petals every turn. It's definitely overplayed but the mana + card draw are a potent combination.
I think the Token is mostly if you need a body, definitely not the focus.

[Moxnix]

Yea in 3 cc I don't know how any of those rocks beat out coalition relic but with how many 3 drops we have I want to run any at 2cc just to free 3cc slots in the deck esp with a 3cc commander. Ill nominate esper sentinel.

[3drinks]

I'll offer the final confirmation vote on Dismember to lock that in alongside Dire Tactics.

With four slots left to fill, let's put myself and @toctheyounger on the clock. I guess my nomination has to be Unexpectedly Absent, right?

Dire Tactics yay - 3 nay - 0
Dismember yay - 3 nay - 0
Unexpectedly Absent yay - 0 nay - 0

https://www.moxfield.com/decks/5JGLDfA7OEy0ZaPb3Nw9QQ

I'd really like to see us run at least one noncreature permanent removal of some kind. I know Anguished Unmaking is a tough sell here but anything similar I'd be happy to see.

So it seems that this ability always costs three, and there's no real way around that...outside of Divine Gambit (because giving someone a Show and Tell is acceptable ), or Wild Magic Surge (which is good, provided you know what to point it at). As I see it, the only legit options are;

• Anguished Unmaking, two colour, can't hit lands, costs 3 life.
• Stroke of Midnight, one colour, negligible drawback, can't hit lands.
• Generous Gift, one colour and hits everything, but gifting a 3/3 is not-insignificant.
• Oblation, one colour, can't hit lands, tacking a draw2 on can be harsh but can be used defensively to draw cards.
• Vindicate, two colour but no drawback outside of sorcery speed.
• Fracture, two colour, two mv and instant speed, but can't hit creatures.

These are all pretty reasonable, and tbh diverse options at least, I think. But...

I don't understand Black Market Connections' popularity. It seemed like the hivemind reached a consensus that Phyrexian Arena is too slow, almost unplayable. And then we get a variant with a similar power level (imo at least) and it climbs to 30€. I don't see any reason to run this unless the Shapeshifter token is really important for your deck.

I've played with it and it's good, but realistically it's not that much better than Phy Arena. Certainly not enough to justify the price tag. I'm just fine rocking my japanese phyrexian arena|apc and not buying one of these. Is it worse? Sure, but not enough to swing a game honestly, both still give +1 card/turn.

[Dunharrow]

@3drinks why do you never value exile? This conversation comes up a lot. Exiling a broken permanent is better than destroying it.

I don't think we want 3 mana anything, and I think Unexpectedly Absent fills the gap of being able to hit anything pretty well. Yay.

[Moxnix]

I think we have a few creature kills already and need more 2cc cards so I kind of like the idea of fracture

[MrBloo]

If we're looking at 2 mv bucket, are we planning on casting Unexpectedly Absent for 0 to buy us a turn and skip their draw most of the time?

[3drinks]

Unexpectedly Absent yay - 1 nay - 0

Let's put @gsgfdf and @MrBloo on the clock for today.

https://www.moxfield.com/decks/5JGLDfA7OEy0ZaPb3Nw9QQ

I'm a bit sad no one has mentioned Kolaghan's Command yet. Damn that card is so juiced for the cost.

@3drinks why do you never value exile? This conversation comes up a lot. Exiling a broken permanent is better than destroying it.

I do value exile, but I'm not willing to overspend on it just because it exiles. At one point, I used to make all my mono-r removal Carbonize|scg, Incendiary Flow, Annihilating Fire, Yamabushi's Flame, and Magma Spray because I was scared to death {rightly, sure} of Academy Rector just ending games. In the end, it didn't actually make much a difference and I was just overpaying for interaction. Sac decks will have outlets to get around the exile interaction because that's important to them so what are we really doing? So I adapted to just playing a more efficient piece of interaction instead of buying the bells and whistles.

If the exile just happens to be part of the card and we're not paying a premium (such as path to exile|tsr) though, then sure take the exile because it's better at the job than a not exile card would be.

If we're looking at 2 mv bucket, are we planning on casting Unexpectedly Absent for 0 to buy us a turn and skip their draw most of the time?

Or, we use it in response to a terramorphic expanse|brc/evolving wilds|brc/ash barrens|brc or similar. Instants are best when waiting for the last possible moment to blow someone out.

[MrBloo]

Oh right using it in response to a search effects works pretty good.

In that case I'm willing to give it a try. Yay Unexpectedly Absent .

My nomination is Boros Charm. Each mode is relevant to us and it's not 3 mana.