Zirda, the Dawnwaker (Let's Brew!)

User avatar
darrenhabib
Posts: 1932
Joined: 5 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago



Alright so let's look at this from two angles.
One is if its your companion, and the other is if its your commander.

Thanks to @Stapler who already made a list of commanders who you can use with Zirda, the Dawnwaker.
Note that activated abilities include anything that has a "{Cost}: {Effect}" so some some keywords to look out for include Cycling.

A lot to digest here, what are some peoples thoughts?
Last edited by darrenhabib 4 years ago, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Hawk
Slayer of Threads
Posts: 1175
Joined: 5 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Salt Lake City, UT

Post by Hawk » 4 years ago

The elephants in the room are Basalt Monolith and Grim Monolith; these cards are "one card combos" with Firefox in the Companion or Commander slot, making infinite colorless mana.

Not sure what the infinites are, but I am sure there are with Retrofitter Foundry, Staff of Domination, and various other "wands of durdling".

Eldrazi Displacer also seems likely to be able to infinite with this thing.

It is powerful with cycling, but not in a cycling deck - because it prohibits Lightning Rift, Fluctuator, Spirit Cairn, and most of the payoffs.

User avatar
folding_music
glitter pen on my mana crypt
Posts: 2437
Joined: 5 years ago
Pronoun: they / them

Post by folding_music » 4 years ago

dunno, are we trying to competitive? I just wanna run it as a companion in a long game deck that's 45% greedy utility land and everything else is a Dwarven Miner variant or a card with Equip written on it <3

CTNC
Posts: 21
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by CTNC » 4 years ago

Small note: It doesn't matter if the Instants and Sorceries have abilities. Zirda only cares if all you permanents have one.

When Biomancer's Familiar came out I didn't think anyone would care about the Adapt ability outside of limited and just use it as a discount Training Grounds. Now people care about that ability for 5 Color Zirda decks! But they still don't care what it does... The five color commanders aren't the best for Zirda, but I just wanted to point out the irony.

User avatar
Hawk
Slayer of Threads
Posts: 1175
Joined: 5 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Salt Lake City, UT

Post by Hawk » 4 years ago

CTNC wrote:
4 years ago
Small note: It doesn't matter if the Instants and Sorceries have abilities. Zirda only cares if all you permanents have one.

When Biomancer's Familiar came out I didn't think anyone would care about the Adapt ability outside of limited and just use it as a discount Training Grounds. Now people care about that ability for 5 Color Zirda decks! But they still don't care what it does... The five color commanders aren't the best for Zirda, but I just wanted to point out the irony.
Wow I missed that. I had figured that players was going to have to sacrifice Enlightened Tutor and other support to use this in the Companion slot. Turns out no!

Still not good in cycling.dec, but very spicy. This little fox is going to be everywhere.

User avatar
darrenhabib
Posts: 1932
Joined: 5 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

Hawk wrote:
4 years ago
It is powerful with cycling, but not in a cycling deck - because it prohibits Lightning Rift, Fluctuator, Spirit Cairn, and most of the payoffs.
Just of note, Astral Slide and Evasion Protocol as well, but you can play Astral Drift.

Here is a list of cards that benefit from cycling (so far) that don't have activated abilities that specifically mention cycling.
Abandoned Sarcophagus, Astral Slide, Cunning Survivor, Drake Haven, Faith of the Devoted, Flameblade Adept, Fleeting Aven, Grisly Survivor, Hekma Sentinels, Invigorating Boon, Lightning Rift, Ominous Sphinx, Pitiless Vizier, Ruthless Sniper, Shadow of the Grave, Shadowstorm Vizier, Stoic Champion, Warped Researcher, Withering Hex, Zenith Seeker.
Fluctuator, New Perspectives, Sacred Excavation.
Evasion Protocol, Gavi, Nest Warden, Herald of the Forgotten, Crystalline Resonance.

Also if you were looking to make a deck that tried to cycle literally through your library, you can't win with either Thassa's Oracle or Laboratory Maniac, but you can with Jace, Wielder of Mysteries.

User avatar
FoxOfWar
Posts: 84
Joined: 5 years ago
Pronoun: she / her

Post by FoxOfWar » 4 years ago

Currently tooling Basandra + Zirda, and while I am just randomly going through our piles to see what I come up with, I seem to be leaning somewhat towards a go-wide, powered by the combination of cheaper activated abilities, and no one casting spells in combat. Fair amount of token makers out there that get pretty dumb with that discount. Also, combat-trick activated abilities are a lot better in a board where spells aren't to be done during combat.

Some picks so far:
Akroan Phalanx
Hedron-Field Purists
Dragon Whisperer
Heliod, God of the Sun
Captivating Crew
Jazal Goldmane
Custodi Soulbinders
Feldon of the Third Path
Glory
Mastery of the Unseen
Ignition Team
Herald of Anafenza
Temporal Aperture
Soul of Theros
Nahiri's Machinations
Last edited by FoxOfWar 4 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
36 decks or so...
Show
Hide
Hope of Ghirapur Swordpile - Ghosty Blinky Anafenza - Nezahal - Big, Blue and HERE! - Gonti Can Afford It - Kazuul, Tyrant of Chandras - Polukranos, More Mana - Azor Takes Flight - A3OS System - Vona Life Pain - Angel With a Whip and Her Pet Fox - Tolsimir Wolf Crusade - Dragonlord Steal & Copy - Arjun, the Mad Flame - Tatyova's Mad Lands - Zegana's Simic - Chainer Does the Value Dance - Polukranos, Unchained - Running Thromok - Sydri's Loco-Inspiraion - Zedruu the Furyhearted - Estrid Land Animation - A Case of Tariel's Persistent F*ckery - Tail of the AristoCat Humanitarian - Karador, Tomb Operator - Tayam Re-Curses - Jeleva... does... things - Sidisi, Death is Served - Omnath, Blink and You're Missing - The Negatiweaver - Breya, Eggs, Breya'd Eggs - Ishai and Reyhan Dicepile - Kynaios and Tiro Landfall Impersonations - Tana and Ravos' Regal Gatekeeping - Yidris of the Chi-Ting Corporation - General Tazri's Utterly Amazing Allies

User avatar
darrenhabib
Posts: 1932
Joined: 5 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

folding_music wrote:
4 years ago
dunno, are we trying to competitive? I just wanna run it as a companion in a long game deck that's 45% greedy utility land and everything else is a Dwarven Miner variant or a card with Equip written on it <3
Casual, competitive, whatever :) Just ideas.

User avatar
Serenade
UnderKing
Posts: 1443
Joined: 5 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Serenade » 4 years ago

Samut Loam deck? Oops all lands? How does it work with equipment equip-cost-reducing cards?
Mirri, Cat Warrior counts as a Cat Warrior.

User avatar
pokken
Posts: 6630
Joined: 5 years ago
Answers: 2
Pronoun: he / him

Post by pokken » 4 years ago

The main thing that jumps out at me is thassa's ire goes infinite with everything with this, as far as activated ability creatures are concerned. 1U is a very cheap bar to clear.

heliod, god of the sun becomes very attractive too.

mobilization also sick.

User avatar
darrenhabib
Posts: 1932
Joined: 5 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

CTNC wrote:
4 years ago
Small note: It doesn't matter if the Instants and Sorceries have abilities. Zirda only cares if all you permanents have one.

When Biomancer's Familiar came out I didn't think anyone would care about the Adapt ability outside of limited and just use it as a discount Training Grounds. Now people care about that ability for 5 Color Zirda decks! But they still don't care what it does... The five color commanders aren't the best for Zirda, but I just wanted to point out the irony.
Oops, better read the card properly next time. This makes Zirda even more powerful!

User avatar
darrenhabib
Posts: 1932
Joined: 5 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

Serenade wrote:
4 years ago
Samut Loam deck? Oops all lands? How does it work with equipment equip-cost-reducing cards?
Null Rod prevents equipping, so sure is an activated cost to equip.

If the full text of Equip was written out on cards then they read as for example for Equip 3:
Equip 3 ( 3 : Attach to target creature you control. Equip only as a sorcery. This card comes into play unattached and stays in play if the creature leaves play.)

The secret is in the ":" text of the ability, meaning its a {Cost} : {Effect}.

User avatar
Serenade
UnderKing
Posts: 1443
Joined: 5 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Serenade » 4 years ago

What about Danitha?
Mirri, Cat Warrior counts as a Cat Warrior.

Wallycaine
Posts: 767
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Wallycaine » 4 years ago

darrenhabib wrote:
4 years ago
Serenade wrote:
4 years ago
Samut Loam deck? Oops all lands? How does it work with equipment equip-cost-reducing cards?
Null Rod prevents equipping, so sure is an activated cost to equip.

If the full text of Equip was written out on cards then they read as for example for Equip 3:
Equip 3 ( 3 : Attach to target creature you control. Equip only as a sorcery. This card comes into play unattached and stays in play if the creature leaves play.)

The secret is in the ":" text of the ability, meaning its a {Cost} : {Effect}.
The actual question I'm not certain about is what happens if you have two cost reduction effects, one of which can't reduce below 1 and one of which can. If you have Zirda and Nahiri, Storm of Stone out at the same time, do your equip costs that start at 3 become 1 or 0?

User avatar
darrenhabib
Posts: 1932
Joined: 5 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

Wallycaine wrote:
4 years ago
darrenhabib wrote:
4 years ago
Serenade wrote:
4 years ago
Samut Loam deck? Oops all lands? How does it work with equipment equip-cost-reducing cards?
Null Rod prevents equipping, so sure is an activated cost to equip.

If the full text of Equip was written out on cards then they read as for example for Equip 3:
Equip 3 ( 3 : Attach to target creature you control. Equip only as a sorcery. This card comes into play unattached and stays in play if the creature leaves play.)

The secret is in the ":" text of the ability, meaning its a {Cost} : {Effect}.
The actual question I'm not certain about is what happens if you have two cost reduction effects, one of which can't reduce below 1 and one of which can. If you have Zirda and Nahiri, Storm of Stone out at the same time, do your equip costs that start at 3 become 1 or 0?
I assume Zirda reduces the cost to 1 and then something like Nahiri, Storm of Stone would then reduce it to zero.
But I'm no rules expert, can somebody clarify please?

Of note cards like Danitha Capashen, Paragon, Auriok Steelshaper, Fervent Champion, don't have activated abilities, but if you were playing Zirda as your commander/99 that wouldn't matter.

User avatar
pokken
Posts: 6630
Joined: 5 years ago
Answers: 2
Pronoun: he / him

Post by pokken » 4 years ago

601.2f The player determines the total cost of the spell. Usually this is just the mana cost. Some spells have additional or alternative costs. Some effects may increase or reduce the cost to pay, or may provide other alternative costs. Costs may include paying mana, tapping permanents, sacrificing permanents, discarding cards, and so on. The total cost is the mana cost or alternative cost (as determined in rule 601.2b), plus all additional costs and cost increases, and minus all cost reductions. If multiple cost reductions apply, the player may apply them in any order. If the mana component of the total cost is reduced to nothing by cost reduction effects, it is considered to be {0}. It can't be reduced to less than {0}. Once the total cost is determined, any effects that directly affect the total cost are applied. Then the resulting total cost becomes "locked in." If effects would change the total cost after this time, they have no effect.
Seems to cover it.

User avatar
Stapler
is a liar
Posts: 133
Joined: 5 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Stapler » 4 years ago

Looking at the Commanders individually, here's my outlook on how naturally Zirda as a Companion can fit into most builds and whether it's worth it to build them with Zirda in general. This is to help narrow down possible directions you can take to use Zirda as a Companion.

Underpowered: All of these commanders are either weak or unexciting compared to other commanders in the same colours (pretty much all of the Boros commanders, Cromat, Licia), are part of a creature tribe or use a mechanical space that include too many (necessary) cards that lack activated abilities (Tazri, Scion, Horde, Mayael), or are a huge meme (Atogatog).

Playable: These cards have no direct synergy with Zirda but at least have the potential to support possible reasonably strong builds for them. Basandra seems the best of the Boros commanders for a potential equipment/creature ability based deck, Tariel and Kelsien both benefit from being untapped via Thousand-Year Elixir and friends, the Shark companion seems like one of the better possible homes for a cycling deck using Zirda, and Atla, Zedruu, and all of the 5C commanders are open and powerful enough that you could build them however you want within the restriction and have Zirda support you for it.

Good Potential: Each of these is either a commander that directly benefits from the mana discount or is known for playing cards that fit the requirement, though ultimately the stronger build for these generals likely won't Companion Zirda. They can definitely still be fun and powerful though.

Kykar can be played almost permanentless to begin with, so having an extra card to enable combos or make certain cards more efficient is swell. You still have access to Purphoros, God of the Forge, Goblin Bombardment, Skullclamp, Metallurgic Summonings, as well as the new Sharknado. Likely still not optimal but you could build it.

Akim has a lot of token makers that use activated abilities (Faerie Formation, Heliod, God of the Sun, Dawn of Hope) so reducing those costs to more efficiently make tokens off their trigger is pretty strong. Reducing that expensive-arse double strike ability helps a bit too. Not being able to play most anthem effects is a bummer though - you'll have to stick to spell-based pump or cards like Leonin Sun Standard. This deck definitely uses Zirda better than Kykar, even if the average Kykar deck is probably stronger.

Samut is often built as activated ability tribal so Zirda is just a natural fit. Zacama getting reduced to 1 mana activations is quite crazy, but without mana doublers you lack a bit of oomph.

Marath is just made so much more efficient by Zirda, and while I don't think there are any obvious combos you can do with the restriction, that's OK by me. You do lose out on Doubling Season and some other cards that are naturally good in the deck, but if you're using Marath more as a control tool Zirda seems like it should help a lot.

Sisay can still play Planeswalkers alongside Rhys the Redeemed and whatever other strong legends have activated abilities, but you are losing out on a lot of cards and you probably aren't using Zirda very well. I could see this still being reasonably strong.

High Synergy: These guys all seem insane, mostly because they gain significant discounts from Zirda and can be easily built to accommodate her. Training Grounds is one of the better cards in Kenrith, and having it in the Companion zone lets you cheat on mana pretty drastically. Golos getting a discount is less relevant, but you can build Golos however you want so Zirda will always be extremely helpful to your strategy. Breya generally plays with a lot of artifacts which tend to use activated abilities naturally, and reducing those costs is something we've never had access to on this scale; there's definitely shenanigans to be had there, more than just Grim Monolith or Basalt Monolith.

These are just my initial thoughts, LMK if I missed any synergies that make any of these options more viable.
"Image"

User avatar
Serenade
UnderKing
Posts: 1443
Joined: 5 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Serenade » 4 years ago

Sunforger equips for free with Z and another reducer.

Gemstone Array converts any color mana to any other color.
Mirri, Cat Warrior counts as a Cat Warrior.

User avatar
darrenhabib
Posts: 1932
Joined: 5 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

You'd have to say Kenrith, the Returned King would be the most overpowered option as the commander, as he inherently has a way of getting Zirda, the Dawnwaker back from the graveyard if removed.

1u Target player draws a card .. yikes!

User avatar
Serenade
UnderKing
Posts: 1443
Joined: 5 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Serenade » 4 years ago

You can use Imperial Recruiter/Recruiter of the Guard to find Danitha or something else. You can Slide/Drift the Recruiter for more creatures (cycling, of course, at a reduced rate).

Use infinite mana into Kumano to shoot everything and keep it dead?
Mirri, Cat Warrior counts as a Cat Warrior.

onering
Posts: 1250
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 1
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by onering » 4 years ago

Serenade wrote:
4 years ago
You can use Imperial Recruiter/Recruiter of the Guard to find Danitha or something else. You can Slide/Drift the Recruiter for more creatures (cycling, of course, at a reduced rate).

Use infinite mana into Kumano to shoot everything and keep it dead?
Only if Firefox is your commander. If it's a companion, you can't put the recruiters in the deck.

User avatar
KitsuLeif
Posts: 205
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by KitsuLeif » 4 years ago

https://archidekt.com/decks/493906#Firefox_cEDH_WIP
That's the skeleton of the deck, I'm brewing atm. I just need to flesh it out a bit.

User avatar
darrenhabib
Posts: 1932
Joined: 5 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

KitsuLeif wrote:
4 years ago
https://archidekt.com/decks/493906#Firefox_cEDH_WIP
That's the skeleton of the deck, I'm brewing atm. I just need to flesh it out a bit.
I had a look through your deck. You definitely want more mana sink wins for the Basalt Monolith/Grim Monolith combos.

Gorilla Shaman is not a win condition, but for a cEDH environment, which it looks like you are aiming for, blowing up Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond, etc is a thing, and with Monoliths you can blow up all artifacts.

Can you explain the reason for the Voltaic Key and Manifold Key?
Also the Staff of Domination?

It also sucks that Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy just does the thing as far as another commander that goes infinite with the Monoliths. Why can't they just give Boros something and not give Simic everything?

User avatar
KitsuLeif
Posts: 205
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by KitsuLeif » 4 years ago

darrenhabib wrote:
4 years ago
I had a look through your deck. You definitely want more mana sink wins for the Basalt Monolith/Grim Monolith combos.
Yeah, the deck is far from finished, I will see what can fit in.
darrenhabib wrote:
4 years ago
Gorilla Shaman is not a win condition, but for a cEDH environment, which it looks like you are aiming for, blowing up Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond, etc is a thing, and with Monoliths you can blow up all artifacts.
Oh, I like this one! Yeah, I'm aiming for cEDH. It's a card I definitely want to consider!
darrenhabib wrote:
4 years ago
Can you explain the reason for the Voltaic Key and Manifold Key?
Also the Staff of Domination?
Most of the time I'm gonna use both Keys as a way to get more mana from Mana Vault, Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Basalt Monolith, Grim Monolith etc.
But they are also awesome in combination with Isochron Scepter to use it multiple times in a turn cycle.
Staff is another infinite mana outlet, so I can draw the entire deck and into a wincon.

User avatar
Kavu Enthusiast
Flavor Police Officer
Posts: 35
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted
Location: New England

Post by Kavu Enthusiast » 4 years ago

Just to put it out there as Zirda was dismissed out of hand super early in this discussion concerning Cycling decks because of all the cards you couldn't play. That's assuming you require it as companion an are not willing to just have it in the 99. In the 99 it's still a great cycling deck card that should be considered, IDK if it will make the final cut in Gavi but I'd put it in the initial brainstorm pile.That's true if you wanted to make a cycling deck with Zirda as commander too; obviously not the commander most people are going to go with for a cycling deck, but hey it's EDH and it's kinda the *point* of EDH to build and play the cool, weird, unique deck you want to build/play around the cool legend you like so w/e.

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic

Return to “Commander”